1 00:00:03,980 --> 00:00:06,449 Just another second and I go grab 2 00:00:06,449 --> 00:00:10,514 my sheet of paper on my office 3 00:00:10,514 --> 00:00:14,219 that I work in 4 00:00:14,219 --> 00:00:16,979 IT to hear PSU undergraduate students 5 00:00:16,979 --> 00:00:18,315 in business school? 6 00:00:18,315 --> 00:00:20,849 Yeah. Technically. Really? 7 00:00:20,849 --> 00:00:26,564 Uh-huh. Yeah. Yeah. 8 00:00:26,564 --> 00:00:34,529 To start 9 00:00:34,529 --> 00:00:39,640 percentage by me. 10 00:01:11,320 --> 00:01:18,829 Okay. So I'm finding right 11 00:01:18,829 --> 00:01:22,190 now just perhaps I'm on to England in 12 00:01:22,190 --> 00:01:23,480 the either let me know if 13 00:01:23,480 --> 00:01:26,165 I got this thing through. 14 00:01:26,165 --> 00:01:28,699 Move it a little closer. 15 00:01:28,699 --> 00:01:30,979 Didn't speaker while most your, 16 00:01:30,979 --> 00:01:32,434 your voice is the most important one, 17 00:01:32,434 --> 00:01:34,139 it will be bigger. 18 00:01:34,960 --> 00:01:37,669 Vestibular through great. 19 00:01:37,669 --> 00:01:39,455 Yeah. I'm asking people. 20 00:01:39,455 --> 00:01:41,164 You can hear all right. 21 00:01:41,164 --> 00:01:43,819 Javelin, it just let me know. 22 00:01:43,819 --> 00:01:46,879 Down in the bottom of the sea, 23 00:01:46,879 --> 00:01:54,439 but yet premier yoga, 24 00:01:54,439 --> 00:01:55,580 all right, somebody, I 25 00:01:55,580 --> 00:01:57,005 feel good about that, that stream. 26 00:01:57,005 --> 00:01:59,450 So Let's go ahead 27 00:01:59,450 --> 00:02:01,910 and start. Rays are welcomed me. 28 00:02:01,910 --> 00:02:04,295 This isn't science seminar series. 29 00:02:04,295 --> 00:02:05,870 Drill that. Alright, so 30 00:02:05,870 --> 00:02:07,115 we're going to hear climate absolutely. 31 00:02:07,115 --> 00:02:08,989 Cursive identity and purposeful 32 00:02:08,989 --> 00:02:13,079 changed as a title make you think. 33 00:02:13,780 --> 00:02:17,870 And I'll try to 34 00:02:17,870 --> 00:02:20,820 demonstrate some thinking out loud here. 35 00:02:21,370 --> 00:02:25,175 What shall I just say? 36 00:02:25,175 --> 00:02:28,320 Say continue aircraft. And thank you. 37 00:02:28,600 --> 00:02:33,274 So I've organized this talk into three parts. 38 00:02:33,274 --> 00:02:35,090 Should take about less 39 00:02:35,090 --> 00:02:36,150 than, less than 30 minutes. 40 00:02:36,150 --> 00:02:37,460 So there will be plenty of time 41 00:02:37,460 --> 00:02:39,680 for questions and conversation at the end, 42 00:02:39,680 --> 00:02:42,350 please do hold questions and 43 00:02:42,350 --> 00:02:44,120 comments to the end 44 00:02:44,120 --> 00:02:45,619 of service and the introduction. 45 00:02:45,619 --> 00:02:47,104 And then I'll describe 46 00:02:47,104 --> 00:02:48,889 and methods and then I'll apply 47 00:02:48,889 --> 00:02:51,260 these methods in a cybernetic contexts and 48 00:02:51,260 --> 00:02:53,014 then an inner resilience 49 00:02:53,014 --> 00:02:55,550 transformation contacts. 50 00:02:55,550 --> 00:02:57,170 So I wanted to start out 51 00:02:57,170 --> 00:02:58,880 with an appreciation. 52 00:02:58,880 --> 00:03:02,944 I am, I'm a huge fan of the program here. 53 00:03:02,944 --> 00:03:04,549 What are the amazing resource? 54 00:03:04,549 --> 00:03:07,744 This is that this long, 55 00:03:07,744 --> 00:03:09,530 long-lasting says confines or 56 00:03:09,530 --> 00:03:12,229 gram is going on in Portland. 57 00:03:12,229 --> 00:03:15,890 You know, a couple of examples that I pulled 58 00:03:15,890 --> 00:03:17,689 out to illustrate 59 00:03:17,689 --> 00:03:19,699 the longevity of this program. 60 00:03:19,699 --> 00:03:21,409 A couple of audio recordings 61 00:03:21,409 --> 00:03:23,884 from the PSU libraries that, 62 00:03:23,884 --> 00:03:27,724 that are from the mid 19 seventies. 63 00:03:27,724 --> 00:03:29,749 One of C west churchmen 64 00:03:29,749 --> 00:03:30,950 and want to tines going 65 00:03:30,950 --> 00:03:34,280 first or and you know, 66 00:03:34,280 --> 00:03:40,595 when I first started studying and teaching, 67 00:03:40,595 --> 00:03:42,079 when I first started teaching 68 00:03:42,079 --> 00:03:44,690 systems in about 2012, 69 00:03:44,690 --> 00:03:45,859 I started that Pacific 70 00:03:45,859 --> 00:03:48,275 Northwest College of Art in 2011. 71 00:03:48,275 --> 00:03:50,390 And I was going to my first I took 72 00:03:50,390 --> 00:03:52,579 less than AFC curve conferences, 73 00:03:52,579 --> 00:03:55,069 that's international side and Sciences, 74 00:03:55,069 --> 00:03:57,155 American Society for cybernetics. 75 00:03:57,155 --> 00:03:58,970 Wait, wait, invited me to 76 00:03:58,970 --> 00:04:02,209 give my presentation here. 77 00:04:02,209 --> 00:04:05,480 As I was on my way from those conferences in 78 00:04:05,480 --> 00:04:08,614 California and appreciative and, 79 00:04:08,614 --> 00:04:10,070 you know, some of that stuff that I 80 00:04:10,070 --> 00:04:12,710 presented at that time is still with me. 81 00:04:12,710 --> 00:04:14,090 It's a case study in 82 00:04:14,090 --> 00:04:15,800 my ecology and society paper 83 00:04:15,800 --> 00:04:17,075 that I'll be talking about. 84 00:04:17,075 --> 00:04:19,759 And I also wanted 85 00:04:19,759 --> 00:04:21,380 to started in addition to this, 86 00:04:21,380 --> 00:04:23,540 the printed Oh, yeah. 87 00:04:23,540 --> 00:04:24,875 I can't make it stop. 88 00:04:24,875 --> 00:04:27,799 If somebody playing the audio that 89 00:04:27,799 --> 00:04:30,980 goes into your volume or I have a URL down, 90 00:04:30,980 --> 00:04:32,150 I have a fan, kill it again, 91 00:04:32,150 --> 00:04:33,200 that should make it stopped 92 00:04:33,200 --> 00:04:34,879 and the speaker are still going. 93 00:04:34,879 --> 00:04:37,040 I have the boys down. 94 00:04:37,040 --> 00:04:44,509 And you say, well, 95 00:04:44,509 --> 00:04:45,889 I have the microphone is needed. 96 00:04:45,889 --> 00:04:49,850 If I don't see a naive that someone 97 00:04:49,850 --> 00:04:54,965 else, it's not really. 98 00:04:54,965 --> 00:04:58,544 I just, I think other people are going to do 99 00:04:58,544 --> 00:05:03,920 is I told it to switch to a headset. 100 00:05:03,920 --> 00:05:05,390 I forget went quiet. 101 00:05:05,390 --> 00:05:06,919 So thank you for suggesting that can 102 00:05:06,919 --> 00:05:13,589 have these sharp and super ie. 103 00:05:15,550 --> 00:05:17,659 So I wanted to start with this 104 00:05:17,659 --> 00:05:18,965 and appreciation, 105 00:05:18,965 --> 00:05:22,070 this note of appreciation in 106 00:05:22,070 --> 00:05:23,465 an appreciative contacts and 107 00:05:23,465 --> 00:05:26,194 also because this is a talk, 108 00:05:26,194 --> 00:05:29,189 a balance identity, right? 109 00:05:29,890 --> 00:05:33,079 Oh my b, u, where u to me, 110 00:05:33,079 --> 00:05:34,565 who are we to each other? 111 00:05:34,565 --> 00:05:35,869 That's sometimes called the read 112 00:05:35,869 --> 00:05:37,444 all of the states. 113 00:05:37,444 --> 00:05:40,415 What is the context that person may know it? 114 00:05:40,415 --> 00:05:42,260 What does the person that one might know 115 00:05:42,260 --> 00:05:43,519 a context after another 116 00:05:43,519 --> 00:05:46,050 version of this riddle? 117 00:05:48,370 --> 00:05:50,720 And just to illustrate 118 00:05:50,720 --> 00:05:53,450 this recursive identity 119 00:05:53,450 --> 00:05:54,949 that I'm talking about. 120 00:05:54,949 --> 00:06:00,380 Further, I'm going to perform this model. 121 00:06:00,380 --> 00:06:02,539 I call it a performative model. 122 00:06:02,539 --> 00:06:04,070 We'll get to that in 123 00:06:04,070 --> 00:06:06,889 my definition of a model and a few slides. 124 00:06:06,889 --> 00:06:10,609 And this performative model is very simple. 125 00:06:10,609 --> 00:06:13,279 It's a simple fill in the blank exit flies. 126 00:06:13,279 --> 00:06:15,620 And as so what I'm going to do is I'm going 127 00:06:15,620 --> 00:06:18,139 to form this little fill in the blank here. 128 00:06:18,139 --> 00:06:19,519 And as I'm performing it, 129 00:06:19,519 --> 00:06:20,839 I'm going to be thinking about 130 00:06:20,839 --> 00:06:22,534 these three questions. 131 00:06:22,534 --> 00:06:23,869 Sometimes thinking about them, 132 00:06:23,869 --> 00:06:25,505 sometimes talking about now. 133 00:06:25,505 --> 00:06:28,549 Because as, as one performs this model, 134 00:06:28,549 --> 00:06:30,309 one can't help but go 135 00:06:30,309 --> 00:06:32,645 to these types of questions, I think. 136 00:06:32,645 --> 00:06:35,059 And so suddenly we go. 137 00:06:35,059 --> 00:06:38,000 I am a seeker in 138 00:06:38,000 --> 00:06:41,555 the And seminar series for 2019. 139 00:06:41,555 --> 00:06:45,469 I am a I 140 00:06:45,469 --> 00:06:49,324 am a Sibley in a set of family relationships. 141 00:06:49,324 --> 00:06:52,280 I I'm a south in a in 142 00:06:52,280 --> 00:06:54,334 a family familial relationship, 143 00:06:54,334 --> 00:06:55,805 different boundaries, right? 144 00:06:55,805 --> 00:06:58,129 For those two statements. 145 00:06:58,129 --> 00:07:01,189 I am a teacher in 146 00:07:01,189 --> 00:07:03,995 a design program in art school, 147 00:07:03,995 --> 00:07:07,609 which I'm very enthusiastic about inside 148 00:07:07,609 --> 00:07:09,184 an educational system that I'm 149 00:07:09,184 --> 00:07:12,359 sometimes less enthusiastic about. 150 00:07:12,370 --> 00:07:16,820 I am a consumer 151 00:07:16,820 --> 00:07:18,709 of fossil fuels in 152 00:07:18,709 --> 00:07:21,840 a world this time from their consumption. 153 00:07:24,610 --> 00:07:30,050 I am a white person in a LAN, 154 00:07:30,050 --> 00:07:32,340 colonized by white people. 155 00:07:34,540 --> 00:07:40,400 And I feel like 156 00:07:40,400 --> 00:07:41,689 it's hard to say those 157 00:07:41,689 --> 00:07:42,935 things that I just said. 158 00:07:42,935 --> 00:07:45,480 Those are not just words. 159 00:07:46,450 --> 00:07:49,190 Right? And so this model 160 00:07:49,190 --> 00:07:51,470 that I-V curve of recursive identity 161 00:07:51,470 --> 00:07:56,495 that performed is embedded. I think. 162 00:07:56,495 --> 00:07:58,909 That should be clear, right? 163 00:07:58,909 --> 00:08:04,399 It's intersectional. I'm not exciting. 164 00:08:04,399 --> 00:08:06,379 Kimberly Crenshaw here, I'm citing 165 00:08:06,379 --> 00:08:12,950 Francisco Varela in that this sense 166 00:08:12,950 --> 00:08:16,145 of identity as embedded in context. 167 00:08:16,145 --> 00:08:17,570 There are multiple forms of 168 00:08:17,570 --> 00:08:18,770 it right now when I did 169 00:08:18,770 --> 00:08:22,909 remarkable and gets affiliated, 170 00:08:22,909 --> 00:08:25,470 entangled, path-dependent. 171 00:08:25,540 --> 00:08:33,679 Write. Stuff that may 172 00:08:33,679 --> 00:08:35,165 have happened a long time ago, 173 00:08:35,165 --> 00:08:37,744 still hard to, hard to let go of. 174 00:08:37,744 --> 00:08:39,740 If, if, if one is entangled 175 00:08:39,740 --> 00:08:45,840 in black and white, 176 00:08:45,840 --> 00:08:50,755 blocks are color weird. 177 00:08:50,755 --> 00:08:56,605 Okay? So just do a little more background. 178 00:08:56,605 --> 00:08:57,789 So I kind of, my background 179 00:08:57,789 --> 00:08:59,319 is not out of academia, 180 00:08:59,319 --> 00:09:01,239 it's from out of NGO 181 00:09:01,239 --> 00:09:04,765 proactive isn't phrase correct. 182 00:09:04,765 --> 00:09:06,309 Isn't comes from my friend, 183 00:09:06,309 --> 00:09:08,904 the artist, Harry Weissman. 184 00:09:08,904 --> 00:09:11,004 And I worked for many years 185 00:09:11,004 --> 00:09:12,909 with EPA trust here in town. 186 00:09:12,909 --> 00:09:16,330 And so when we were we were working 187 00:09:16,330 --> 00:09:21,160 on to affect systemic change in food systems, 188 00:09:21,160 --> 00:09:22,600 fisheries systems, 189 00:09:22,600 --> 00:09:27,430 energy systems, tree-building, forestry, etc. 190 00:09:27,430 --> 00:09:29,749 All these, all these a 191 00:09:29,749 --> 00:09:32,705 systems out in the world, right? 192 00:09:32,705 --> 00:09:36,230 And I was doing this work. 193 00:09:36,230 --> 00:09:39,379 I started to see this conceptual approach 194 00:09:39,379 --> 00:09:41,450 and to understand this conceptual approach 195 00:09:41,450 --> 00:09:42,725 to what we're doing. 196 00:09:42,725 --> 00:09:44,374 Or everyone familiar with this, 197 00:09:44,374 --> 00:09:45,934 with this landscape model. 198 00:09:45,934 --> 00:09:48,230 Yeah. And so with 199 00:09:48,230 --> 00:09:50,660 the sense that the systems that 200 00:09:50,660 --> 00:09:53,090 we're engaged with could be defined 201 00:09:53,090 --> 00:09:55,714 and described in terms of identity, right? 202 00:09:55,714 --> 00:09:57,109 Familiar quote here I think 203 00:09:57,109 --> 00:09:59,135 from Brian Walker and David Salt. 204 00:09:59,135 --> 00:10:01,580 Regime is a set of states that 205 00:10:01,580 --> 00:10:02,720 a system can exist in 206 00:10:02,720 --> 00:10:04,009 and still behave in the same way, 207 00:10:04,009 --> 00:10:05,630 still have the same identity, 208 00:10:05,630 --> 00:10:08,089 basic structure and function, right? 209 00:10:08,089 --> 00:10:09,320 And then perhaps less 210 00:10:09,320 --> 00:10:11,014 familiar Bella band iffy. 211 00:10:11,014 --> 00:10:13,130 Many, many systems theorists use, 212 00:10:13,130 --> 00:10:15,049 use this concept of identity to 213 00:10:15,049 --> 00:10:17,824 talk about systems in the world. 214 00:10:17,824 --> 00:10:19,460 Bella band fi rights. 215 00:10:19,460 --> 00:10:21,409 When does a system retains its identity, 216 00:10:21,409 --> 00:10:23,690 continuity through change, and when does 217 00:10:23,690 --> 00:10:26,089 it itself vanish or become something? 218 00:10:26,089 --> 00:10:27,589 Do these questions are 219 00:10:27,589 --> 00:10:29,479 great practical concern in 220 00:10:29,479 --> 00:10:32,029 contexts such systems designed, right? 221 00:10:32,029 --> 00:10:34,129 And as I started to so different, 222 00:10:34,129 --> 00:10:35,929 this was the conceptual tool 223 00:10:35,929 --> 00:10:38,104 that really caught my attention, right? 224 00:10:38,104 --> 00:10:39,545 And that us as either, 225 00:10:39,545 --> 00:10:41,839 as I studied further, I started to say, oh, 226 00:10:41,839 --> 00:10:43,204 there's also this link we're 227 00:10:43,204 --> 00:10:45,049 talking about when I talked 228 00:10:45,049 --> 00:10:47,119 about wanting to change 229 00:10:47,119 --> 00:10:48,229 the food system or change 230 00:10:48,229 --> 00:10:49,399 the energy system or, 231 00:10:49,399 --> 00:10:52,430 or affect change in fisheries management. 232 00:10:52,430 --> 00:10:54,859 I'm talking about first-order systems, right? 233 00:10:54,859 --> 00:10:57,185 These are observed systems 234 00:10:57,185 --> 00:10:58,924 or systems on world. 235 00:10:58,924 --> 00:11:02,795 This is kinsmen bursters description 236 00:11:02,795 --> 00:11:04,579 of this duality, right? 237 00:11:04,579 --> 00:11:06,229 First and second-order, what do you call 238 00:11:06,229 --> 00:11:07,775 the Cybernetics folks called 239 00:11:07,775 --> 00:11:09,950 first second woman who absolutely right. 240 00:11:09,950 --> 00:11:11,659 I'm first-order systems, 241 00:11:11,659 --> 00:11:12,800 our world food system, 242 00:11:12,800 --> 00:11:13,859 the energy system, the 243 00:11:13,859 --> 00:11:15,919 fisheries nine systems, right? 244 00:11:15,919 --> 00:11:17,269 Second-order thing. 245 00:11:17,269 --> 00:11:19,745 Myself as I, as I 246 00:11:19,745 --> 00:11:21,545 distinguish and atmospheric 247 00:11:21,545 --> 00:11:24,635 these these systems in the world. 248 00:11:24,635 --> 00:11:30,260 And so then I moved on around 20112012, 249 00:11:30,260 --> 00:11:32,060 and I shifted from doing N-G 250 00:11:32,060 --> 00:11:34,560 or NGO or to teaching. 251 00:11:34,560 --> 00:11:36,549 And I've been teaching at 252 00:11:36,549 --> 00:11:37,750 Pacific Northwest College of 253 00:11:37,750 --> 00:11:41,695 Art and Design Program in an art school, 254 00:11:41,695 --> 00:11:43,539 saying ITP at NYU 255 00:11:43,539 --> 00:11:46,420 also in a design program in an art school, 256 00:11:46,420 --> 00:11:49,029 and doing some writing. 257 00:11:49,029 --> 00:11:51,100 And there's, there are a few things that keep 258 00:11:51,100 --> 00:11:52,120 popping up in my 259 00:11:52,120 --> 00:11:53,440 writings and I keep kinda build, 260 00:11:53,440 --> 00:11:54,579 building on what I've, 261 00:11:54,579 --> 00:11:55,899 what I've written things or 262 00:11:55,899 --> 00:11:57,954 design an action research, 263 00:11:57,954 --> 00:11:59,635 systems, literacy, 264 00:11:59,635 --> 00:12:02,679 analogy, distinction, social system identity. 265 00:12:02,679 --> 00:12:03,879 And I'm going to be talking about 266 00:12:03,879 --> 00:12:06,289 these two papers here. 267 00:12:09,420 --> 00:12:12,129 So here's the methodology, 268 00:12:12,129 --> 00:12:13,554 methodological sequence. 269 00:12:13,554 --> 00:12:16,904 It comes from design and design. 270 00:12:16,904 --> 00:12:18,650 I say design, I don't mean 271 00:12:18,650 --> 00:12:20,689 graphic design or industrial design. 272 00:12:20,689 --> 00:12:21,919 I mean design as 273 00:12:21,919 --> 00:12:25,324 an anticipatory and purposeful activity. 274 00:12:25,324 --> 00:12:27,289 Plenty more to talk about 275 00:12:27,289 --> 00:12:30,109 their secrets. It's very simple. 276 00:12:30,109 --> 00:12:31,594 Design is something we do. 277 00:12:31,594 --> 00:12:32,959 We do all the time and 278 00:12:32,959 --> 00:12:36,365 the methodological sequence is very simple. 279 00:12:36,365 --> 00:12:38,735 Frame an area of inquiry 280 00:12:38,735 --> 00:12:40,820 appreciatively survey 281 00:12:40,820 --> 00:12:42,844 existing approaches to this inquiry 282 00:12:42,844 --> 00:12:44,749 with an emphasis on models, 283 00:12:44,749 --> 00:12:47,659 develop bricolage fragment, 284 00:12:47,659 --> 00:12:50,435 analogize a variant approach, 285 00:12:50,435 --> 00:12:52,759 and then examine analogies and 286 00:12:52,759 --> 00:12:55,439 distinctions across their parties. 287 00:12:56,770 --> 00:12:59,509 Definition of a model that I'm using is 288 00:12:59,509 --> 00:13:01,069 a representation and abstraction 289 00:13:01,069 --> 00:13:02,449 of how things work, 290 00:13:02,449 --> 00:13:04,099 including pork performative 291 00:13:04,099 --> 00:13:05,510 narrative and visual models. 292 00:13:05,510 --> 00:13:07,579 In this sense, mock model 293 00:13:07,579 --> 00:13:10,115 was not necessarily quantitative. 294 00:13:10,115 --> 00:13:13,025 It's a tool for 295 00:13:13,025 --> 00:13:16,234 investigating how, How Things Work. 296 00:13:16,234 --> 00:13:19,190 Note that there's no Praesidium hypotheses in 297 00:13:19,190 --> 00:13:22,399 this in this methodological sequence, right? 298 00:13:22,399 --> 00:13:24,439 This is about getting outside the box, 299 00:13:24,439 --> 00:13:27,620 about trying to be more, 300 00:13:27,620 --> 00:13:30,469 it's like a conceptual exaptation, right? 301 00:13:30,469 --> 00:13:31,639 Pick the brick wall and take 302 00:13:31,639 --> 00:13:32,809 the stuff that's out there, 303 00:13:32,809 --> 00:13:33,919 trying to fragment it, 304 00:13:33,919 --> 00:13:37,080 analogize it, to create something. 305 00:13:38,890 --> 00:13:41,660 There are many, many examples of 306 00:13:41,660 --> 00:13:43,580 how we do this in our lives, right? 307 00:13:43,580 --> 00:13:44,689 So picture that I'm back at 308 00:13:44,689 --> 00:13:45,830 and doing NGO work. 309 00:13:45,830 --> 00:13:48,454 I'm I'm working on an annual report. 310 00:13:48,454 --> 00:13:52,459 I what do we do when we're working on this? 311 00:13:52,459 --> 00:13:53,450 And we're probably look at 312 00:13:53,450 --> 00:13:54,634 what we did last year. 313 00:13:54,634 --> 00:13:56,030 Alright, we looked at other annual 314 00:13:56,030 --> 00:13:57,410 reports that are out there, right? 315 00:13:57,410 --> 00:13:59,869 This is an appreciative served look 316 00:13:59,869 --> 00:14:01,205 at where we looked at bad ones 317 00:14:01,205 --> 00:14:02,390 that wouldn't help us very much. 318 00:14:02,390 --> 00:14:04,025 But maybe you could 319 00:14:04,025 --> 00:14:05,390 serve as a counter example, 320 00:14:05,390 --> 00:14:07,130 but it needs to be appreciative, right? 321 00:14:07,130 --> 00:14:09,259 And then we look and we just and we're not 322 00:14:09,259 --> 00:14:10,669 trying to create a synthesis 323 00:14:10,669 --> 00:14:11,689 of all these reports. 324 00:14:11,689 --> 00:14:14,420 We're trying to, to create something well, 325 00:14:14,420 --> 00:14:16,009 another instance that's something 326 00:14:16,009 --> 00:14:17,089 that we'd like that 327 00:14:17,089 --> 00:14:18,109 could serve as a as a 328 00:14:18,109 --> 00:14:19,940 good annual report, right. 329 00:14:19,940 --> 00:14:21,710 So this is this is an example 330 00:14:21,710 --> 00:14:24,470 of I don't want to sort of step up a level. 331 00:14:24,470 --> 00:14:25,909 This is an example of what I, 332 00:14:25,909 --> 00:14:26,510 what I think of 333 00:14:26,510 --> 00:14:28,954 as analogical reasoning, right? 334 00:14:28,954 --> 00:14:31,054 What are we trying to create a synthesis? 335 00:14:31,054 --> 00:14:33,500 Alright, maybe Joe categories 336 00:14:33,500 --> 00:14:35,060 then do get outside of the box. 337 00:14:35,060 --> 00:14:35,839 Maybe as we're doing 338 00:14:35,839 --> 00:14:37,654 this project, someone says, 339 00:14:37,654 --> 00:14:39,500 oh, what if our annual report 340 00:14:39,500 --> 00:14:41,840 look more like a postcard? 341 00:14:41,840 --> 00:14:45,589 Uh-huh. Okay. So now by by 342 00:14:45,589 --> 00:14:47,540 by examining 343 00:14:47,540 --> 00:14:50,315 instances that have shifted categories, 344 00:14:50,315 --> 00:14:52,009 now we're outside the box that what 345 00:14:52,009 --> 00:14:54,065 this annual report could be, right? 346 00:14:54,065 --> 00:14:56,360 Shape change that Douglas Hofstadter here 347 00:14:56,360 --> 00:14:59,374 and kind of emphasis on analogical reasoning. 348 00:14:59,374 --> 00:15:02,435 I also Shades of Robert Rosen, right? 349 00:15:02,435 --> 00:15:05,750 So his quote from is 79, 350 00:15:05,750 --> 00:15:07,879 been burnt MOLAP the lecture. 351 00:15:07,879 --> 00:15:09,980 The essential characteristic of 352 00:15:09,980 --> 00:15:11,510 systems theory is that 353 00:15:11,510 --> 00:15:13,039 there's a sense in which we can learn 354 00:15:13,039 --> 00:15:15,050 about S by studying S prime. 355 00:15:15,050 --> 00:15:17,180 That is, physically disparate systems 356 00:15:17,180 --> 00:15:18,769 can nevertheless be mop, 357 00:15:18,769 --> 00:15:20,299 whoops, the models are 358 00:15:20,299 --> 00:15:22,710 analogues of each other. 359 00:15:23,350 --> 00:15:26,839 He's thinking of isomorphic isomorphisms, 360 00:15:26,839 --> 00:15:27,409 right? 361 00:15:27,409 --> 00:15:29,510 Looking, looking at biological systems to 362 00:15:29,510 --> 00:15:31,670 learn about social systems, right? 363 00:15:31,670 --> 00:15:32,810 And so I'm doing 364 00:15:32,810 --> 00:15:34,910 something similar in a design pattern. 365 00:15:34,910 --> 00:15:37,309 Okay, so that's, that's basically 366 00:15:37,309 --> 00:15:40,625 the introduction and the methods. 367 00:15:40,625 --> 00:15:41,840 And so I'm going to apply 368 00:15:41,840 --> 00:15:44,074 this insight into compacts. 369 00:15:44,074 --> 00:15:45,200 And these two are pretty, 370 00:15:45,200 --> 00:15:46,219 pretty different, right? 371 00:15:46,219 --> 00:15:46,700 If you read 372 00:15:46,700 --> 00:15:48,290 the Cybernetics literature and read 373 00:15:48,290 --> 00:15:49,684 the resilience literature 374 00:15:49,684 --> 00:15:51,590 about systems traditions. 375 00:15:51,590 --> 00:15:53,390 They've got their own, their own ways 376 00:15:53,390 --> 00:15:55,955 of working in the world, right? 377 00:15:55,955 --> 00:15:58,610 And so what am I going to do 378 00:15:58,610 --> 00:16:00,829 is go through this methodological sequence, 379 00:16:00,829 --> 00:16:02,180 your times one and 380 00:16:02,180 --> 00:16:03,589 a cybernetic contexts than 381 00:16:03,589 --> 00:16:05,000 one and the resilience context, 382 00:16:05,000 --> 00:16:08,010 as I said, it's pretty simple. 383 00:16:08,200 --> 00:16:12,274 And while it is simple, 384 00:16:12,274 --> 00:16:14,869 I'm going to use it to engage with 385 00:16:14,869 --> 00:16:18,184 the core concepts in the system tradition. 386 00:16:18,184 --> 00:16:19,399 Not something off on the side 387 00:16:19,399 --> 00:16:20,615 but the core concepts. 388 00:16:20,615 --> 00:16:23,034 And so this is one of the core concepts in, 389 00:16:23,034 --> 00:16:24,650 when people talk about cybernetics. 390 00:16:24,650 --> 00:16:26,704 This, this person second-order 391 00:16:26,704 --> 00:16:28,970 that I've already introduced, right? 392 00:16:28,970 --> 00:16:32,540 And so and so we've got Van First are there. 393 00:16:32,540 --> 00:16:34,879 And so this is my, 394 00:16:34,879 --> 00:16:37,205 my survey and develop a variant, right? 395 00:16:37,205 --> 00:16:38,750 So his definition of 396 00:16:38,750 --> 00:16:40,760 first-order and second-order cybernetics, 397 00:16:40,760 --> 00:16:41,119 right? 398 00:16:41,119 --> 00:16:42,680 First-order cybernetics 399 00:16:42,680 --> 00:16:44,975 observed systems as I, 400 00:16:44,975 --> 00:16:46,609 as I describe, right? 401 00:16:46,609 --> 00:16:48,559 And that universe cybernetics 402 00:16:48,559 --> 00:16:51,095 observing systems myself, right? 403 00:16:51,095 --> 00:16:53,344 And my first-order and second-order, 404 00:16:53,344 --> 00:16:55,895 the identity of the system in question. 405 00:16:55,895 --> 00:16:58,069 As I performed right? 406 00:16:58,069 --> 00:17:00,739 Efforts, the performative model, right? 407 00:17:00,739 --> 00:17:03,019 The, the systems in the world, 408 00:17:03,019 --> 00:17:05,689 the energy system, the family system, 409 00:17:05,689 --> 00:17:07,130 whenever, the food system, 410 00:17:07,130 --> 00:17:10,009 whatever it be, maybe the second one being 411 00:17:10,009 --> 00:17:11,599 recursive affiliations 412 00:17:11,599 --> 00:17:13,279 between one's own identity 413 00:17:13,279 --> 00:17:15,960 and that of the system in question. 414 00:17:16,660 --> 00:17:19,340 Okay, so then, so there's my variant. 415 00:17:19,340 --> 00:17:20,899 Now what I'm gonna do is examine 416 00:17:20,899 --> 00:17:22,445 analogies and distinctions. 417 00:17:22,445 --> 00:17:23,930 But what does, what does 418 00:17:23,930 --> 00:17:26,479 Heinz von foresters in Haifa and 419 00:17:26,479 --> 00:17:28,459 fosters approach what is ascribed to 420 00:17:28,459 --> 00:17:31,220 the external system distinction, right? 421 00:17:31,220 --> 00:17:33,920 I have distinguished as, 422 00:17:33,920 --> 00:17:35,749 as the system I have constructed it, 423 00:17:35,749 --> 00:17:37,594 you, you might say. 424 00:17:37,594 --> 00:17:39,740 Other than that I'm not describing 425 00:17:39,740 --> 00:17:40,760 anything to it other 426 00:17:40,760 --> 00:17:42,544 than I've distinguished it. 427 00:17:42,544 --> 00:17:44,390 In this approach here. 428 00:17:44,390 --> 00:17:47,495 Yeah, that yes, plus identity, 429 00:17:47,495 --> 00:17:49,835 what is described to oneself as a system 430 00:17:49,835 --> 00:17:52,250 observing yes plus identity. 431 00:17:52,250 --> 00:17:53,900 What makes the two explicitly 432 00:17:53,900 --> 00:17:55,910 or implicitly construction? 433 00:17:55,910 --> 00:17:57,620 And in this case, 434 00:17:57,620 --> 00:17:58,850 recursive affiliation 435 00:17:58,850 --> 00:18:00,815 entanglement, embeddedness. 436 00:18:00,815 --> 00:18:02,885 Does this linkage thereby 437 00:18:02,885 --> 00:18:05,225 linked individual and social change? 438 00:18:05,225 --> 00:18:07,919 Now, yes. 439 00:18:09,880 --> 00:18:12,755 We're going to go through this one more time. 440 00:18:12,755 --> 00:18:15,829 Because I think definitions are, are limited. 441 00:18:15,829 --> 00:18:17,690 And I think models are 442 00:18:17,690 --> 00:18:19,774 more powerful than definitions. 443 00:18:19,774 --> 00:18:20,780 And so I'm going to go through 444 00:18:20,780 --> 00:18:22,010 this one more time 445 00:18:22,010 --> 00:18:24,769 in inner cybernetics context. 446 00:18:24,769 --> 00:18:26,480 And this time instead of 447 00:18:26,480 --> 00:18:28,789 using 1 first definition, 448 00:18:28,789 --> 00:18:29,959 what I'm gonna do is use 449 00:18:29,959 --> 00:18:32,300 the frequently reference model 450 00:18:32,300 --> 00:18:34,729 for talking about first, second order. 451 00:18:34,729 --> 00:18:37,040 And so people familiar with this one 452 00:18:37,040 --> 00:18:39,725 from Margaret Mead and Gregory Bateson? 453 00:18:39,725 --> 00:18:43,589 No. Yeah. Well that 454 00:18:44,080 --> 00:18:49,909 so this Margaret Mead and Gregory Bateson in 455 00:18:49,909 --> 00:18:52,490 the mid-seventies Jude this model to describe 456 00:18:52,490 --> 00:18:53,870 the distinction between first, 457 00:18:53,870 --> 00:18:55,700 second mode, right? 458 00:18:55,700 --> 00:18:57,620 Right, the first-order. 459 00:18:57,620 --> 00:18:59,450 There's a feedback, 460 00:18:59,450 --> 00:19:01,280 a feedback running through the system, 461 00:19:01,280 --> 00:19:02,675 but the engineer is standing 462 00:19:02,675 --> 00:19:03,860 outside the system, right? 463 00:19:03,860 --> 00:19:05,255 This is the black box 464 00:19:05,255 --> 00:19:07,475 is the first-order blackbox, right? 465 00:19:07,475 --> 00:19:08,689 I've got my system there. 466 00:19:08,689 --> 00:19:10,039 I'm watching what's happening to it, 467 00:19:10,039 --> 00:19:11,954 but I'm not I'm not entangled with it 468 00:19:11,954 --> 00:19:14,539 and not not hard it right? 469 00:19:14,539 --> 00:19:16,145 And then a second-order, 470 00:19:16,145 --> 00:19:18,919 they PUT Norbert Wiener themselves 471 00:19:18,919 --> 00:19:21,739 and themselves inside a second, 472 00:19:21,739 --> 00:19:26,180 second boundary there, right? 473 00:19:26,180 --> 00:19:27,379 To, to show that they are 474 00:19:27,379 --> 00:19:29,314 also not outside it. 475 00:19:29,314 --> 00:19:31,894 There, there, there part of it, right? 476 00:19:31,894 --> 00:19:33,650 It's interesting that I think 477 00:19:33,650 --> 00:19:35,630 that they ascribe this 478 00:19:35,630 --> 00:19:36,754 to the to the end of 479 00:19:36,754 --> 00:19:39,469 this first order to the to the engineer. 480 00:19:39,469 --> 00:19:41,119 And to be sure, we 481 00:19:41,119 --> 00:19:42,620 can picture the engineers standing 482 00:19:42,620 --> 00:19:46,444 out outside of the upside black boxing, 483 00:19:46,444 --> 00:19:49,295 the creation of the system there, right? 484 00:19:49,295 --> 00:19:51,034 I'm building a bridge, right? 485 00:19:51,034 --> 00:19:54,274 It's just a bridge or a device, right? 486 00:19:54,274 --> 00:19:56,990 You know, at the same time, I would, 487 00:19:56,990 --> 00:19:58,280 I would point out 488 00:19:58,280 --> 00:19:59,870 that this is the same challenge 489 00:19:59,870 --> 00:20:01,129 that they were facing 490 00:20:01,129 --> 00:20:02,779 as anthropologists, right? 491 00:20:02,779 --> 00:20:04,699 When they go to Papua New Guinea, 492 00:20:04,699 --> 00:20:06,109 or when they go to Bali or 493 00:20:06,109 --> 00:20:07,594 when she goes to Samoa, 494 00:20:07,594 --> 00:20:09,529 am I going to blackbox that 495 00:20:09,529 --> 00:20:11,629 that system there that I'm studying? 496 00:20:11,629 --> 00:20:13,489 Or am I going to recognize 497 00:20:13,489 --> 00:20:15,499 that my presence in Papua New Guinea, 498 00:20:15,499 --> 00:20:17,524 in Bali, in Samoa is, 499 00:20:17,524 --> 00:20:20,585 is affecting what's going on there, right? 500 00:20:20,585 --> 00:20:22,399 So this is the challenge that 501 00:20:22,399 --> 00:20:24,379 social scientists face more broadly, 502 00:20:24,379 --> 00:20:25,820 I would say more broadly than, 503 00:20:25,820 --> 00:20:27,680 than engineers. 504 00:20:27,680 --> 00:20:30,215 Here's another approach to 505 00:20:30,215 --> 00:20:32,735 describing first and second-order. 506 00:20:32,735 --> 00:20:35,464 I'm Ray, I send from, 507 00:20:35,464 --> 00:20:36,905 from his book about 508 00:20:36,905 --> 00:20:39,874 systems practice and climate change, right? 509 00:20:39,874 --> 00:20:42,679 And so he, he, he draws this, 510 00:20:42,679 --> 00:20:43,939 this is his version of 511 00:20:43,939 --> 00:20:45,170 Peter check when spring worked 512 00:20:45,170 --> 00:20:47,690 great hitter tech Lewin's framework 513 00:20:47,690 --> 00:20:49,190 the practitioner or the framework 514 00:20:49,190 --> 00:20:50,854 the situation of the method, right? 515 00:20:50,854 --> 00:20:52,250 And then draws 516 00:20:52,250 --> 00:20:54,080 the person then stepping outside 517 00:20:54,080 --> 00:20:55,219 of oneself to see 518 00:20:55,219 --> 00:20:57,694 oneself in, in that situation. 519 00:20:57,694 --> 00:20:59,465 Right? And then so, 520 00:20:59,465 --> 00:21:01,024 so just to clarify, 521 00:21:01,024 --> 00:21:02,930 just to clarify what's going on here, 522 00:21:02,930 --> 00:21:04,819 I've redrawn them with very 523 00:21:04,819 --> 00:21:06,979 simple, simple diagrams, right? 524 00:21:06,979 --> 00:21:08,660 So the meat Bateson diagram 525 00:21:08,660 --> 00:21:12,679 is first-order as this black box here. 526 00:21:12,679 --> 00:21:14,780 Second-order. I'm going to include 527 00:21:14,780 --> 00:21:17,239 myself in in in the system. 528 00:21:17,239 --> 00:21:18,874 I'm not I'm not going to black box that. 529 00:21:18,874 --> 00:21:20,090 I'm going to include myself 530 00:21:20,090 --> 00:21:21,440 right here and here 531 00:21:21,440 --> 00:21:22,730 it's the first-order and 532 00:21:22,730 --> 00:21:24,274 second-order kind of being, 533 00:21:24,274 --> 00:21:26,060 stepping outside of oneself and 534 00:21:26,060 --> 00:21:28,624 imagining, imagining oneself, right? 535 00:21:28,624 --> 00:21:29,915 And so what would this look 536 00:21:29,915 --> 00:21:31,549 like with regard to this, 537 00:21:31,549 --> 00:21:33,139 this one than this version 538 00:21:33,139 --> 00:21:34,354 that I'm proposing here, 539 00:21:34,354 --> 00:21:35,690 write the identity of 540 00:21:35,690 --> 00:21:36,950 the first order is 541 00:21:36,950 --> 00:21:39,019 the identity of the system in question. 542 00:21:39,019 --> 00:21:40,429 And the second orders 543 00:21:40,429 --> 00:21:42,199 recursive affiliations between 544 00:21:42,199 --> 00:21:43,580 one's own identity and 545 00:21:43,580 --> 00:21:45,574 now the system in question, 546 00:21:45,574 --> 00:21:47,659 well, get looks exactly 547 00:21:47,659 --> 00:21:49,234 the opposite of what the me, 548 00:21:49,234 --> 00:21:53,909 the me Bateson diagram looks like. 549 00:21:56,040 --> 00:21:58,420 Right? And so, and so what 550 00:21:58,420 --> 00:21:59,965 we have here, our, this is, 551 00:21:59,965 --> 00:22:01,060 this is what I call a 552 00:22:01,060 --> 00:22:03,070 transdisciplinary or action research. 553 00:22:03,070 --> 00:22:08,710 You write questioning that black boxing 554 00:22:08,710 --> 00:22:10,165 of one's research study. 555 00:22:10,165 --> 00:22:11,680 This is Ray I send 556 00:22:11,680 --> 00:22:13,135 in book also does a metal view. 557 00:22:13,135 --> 00:22:14,994 We could say it reflects the view 558 00:22:14,994 --> 00:22:16,704 stepping outside of one's up. 559 00:22:16,704 --> 00:22:17,470 And this says that 560 00:22:17,470 --> 00:22:19,929 this bad affiliate entangled are 561 00:22:19,929 --> 00:22:26,875 embedded view. Some go. 562 00:22:26,875 --> 00:22:28,734 That was cybernetics context. 563 00:22:28,734 --> 00:22:30,849 I'm going to go through the same sequence of 564 00:22:30,849 --> 00:22:33,640 steps in a resilience context. 565 00:22:33,640 --> 00:22:35,410 How has identity been used 566 00:22:35,410 --> 00:22:36,520 to characterize purpose, 567 00:22:36,520 --> 00:22:38,609 false thoughts, okay, it, how might it be? 568 00:22:38,609 --> 00:22:40,429 And here I'm going to 569 00:22:40,429 --> 00:22:43,169 go back to this stability landscape. 570 00:22:44,650 --> 00:22:48,109 The way that this landscape is used, 571 00:22:48,109 --> 00:22:50,149 as you're probably familiar, 572 00:22:50,149 --> 00:22:51,469 maybe familiar is as 573 00:22:51,469 --> 00:22:53,690 an integrated FCFs model, 574 00:22:53,690 --> 00:22:55,969 meaning that the variables here to 575 00:22:55,969 --> 00:22:57,080 define a landscape are 576 00:22:57,080 --> 00:22:58,969 both social and ecological. 577 00:22:58,969 --> 00:23:01,220 And a shift in 578 00:23:01,220 --> 00:23:07,039 the social system only counts as a shift. 579 00:23:07,039 --> 00:23:08,660 If b, if we're 580 00:23:08,660 --> 00:23:11,000 privileging the ecological variables, 581 00:23:11,000 --> 00:23:12,530 if our, if our, 582 00:23:12,530 --> 00:23:14,060 if we're looking to see 583 00:23:14,060 --> 00:23:16,415 what impacts we can have on, 584 00:23:16,415 --> 00:23:19,295 on effective ecological management, 585 00:23:19,295 --> 00:23:21,110 then it only counts as the ship if 586 00:23:21,110 --> 00:23:25,229 the ecological variables have shifted. 587 00:23:25,600 --> 00:23:27,725 By disaggregate, 588 00:23:27,725 --> 00:23:29,569 by creating this brick collage. 589 00:23:29,569 --> 00:23:30,829 This is described in 590 00:23:30,829 --> 00:23:33,500 this paper with varying Hill, 591 00:23:33,500 --> 00:23:35,359 I guess aggregate and 592 00:23:35,359 --> 00:23:36,665 creating this brick collage, 593 00:23:36,665 --> 00:23:38,239 we're able to look at stability 594 00:23:38,239 --> 00:23:42,034 and change separately, right? 595 00:23:42,034 --> 00:23:44,434 Okay, so we, we have this social shift. 596 00:23:44,434 --> 00:23:46,399 Does it create an ecological shift? 597 00:23:46,399 --> 00:23:48,049 How about, how about the individual 598 00:23:48,049 --> 00:23:49,340 and organization in 599 00:23:49,340 --> 00:23:50,614 related to this social and 600 00:23:50,614 --> 00:23:53,400 ecological stability and change. 601 00:23:56,770 --> 00:23:59,269 So neat. 602 00:23:59,269 --> 00:24:00,770 In order to create this, 603 00:24:00,770 --> 00:24:03,635 we developed these definitions here. 604 00:24:03,635 --> 00:24:05,780 Logics are factors that 605 00:24:05,780 --> 00:24:08,089 recursively stabilize a social regime. 606 00:24:08,089 --> 00:24:09,410 And a social attractor is 607 00:24:09,410 --> 00:24:11,779 a constant constellation of objects, 608 00:24:11,779 --> 00:24:13,624 IE and institutional logic, 609 00:24:13,624 --> 00:24:15,245 drawing upon that by 610 00:24:15,245 --> 00:24:17,884 mature set pertinent and colleagues, 611 00:24:17,884 --> 00:24:20,150 in which path dependence requires 612 00:24:20,150 --> 00:24:22,099 a build up of behavioral routines, 613 00:24:22,099 --> 00:24:24,439 social connections, or cognitive structures 614 00:24:24,439 --> 00:24:26,014 around an institution I, 615 00:24:26,014 --> 00:24:27,649 around the social factors. 616 00:24:27,649 --> 00:24:29,315 And so this is the 617 00:24:29,315 --> 00:24:31,759 recursive identity that I have 618 00:24:31,759 --> 00:24:36,259 performed and described in 619 00:24:36,259 --> 00:24:40,070 which my stability and change is implicated. 620 00:24:40,070 --> 00:24:41,975 Miscibility and change of, 621 00:24:41,975 --> 00:24:45,335 of the, of the systems in which I'm. 622 00:24:45,335 --> 00:24:48,499 So, okay, last step here, last slide. 623 00:24:48,499 --> 00:24:51,485 So compare analogies, I'm distinctions, 624 00:24:51,485 --> 00:24:53,329 the depiction of social, 625 00:24:53,329 --> 00:24:56,075 ecological interrelationships. 626 00:24:56,075 --> 00:24:57,754 Well, it's an integrated landscape 627 00:24:57,754 --> 00:24:59,809 of plausible regimes that each deliver 628 00:24:59,809 --> 00:25:01,370 a particular bundle of 629 00:25:01,370 --> 00:25:03,860 ecosystem services symbol from, 630 00:25:03,860 --> 00:25:05,434 from my paper there, right? 631 00:25:05,434 --> 00:25:07,529 And in this version, 632 00:25:07,840 --> 00:25:09,980 the depiction of social 633 00:25:09,980 --> 00:25:12,499 ecological interrelationships is 634 00:25:12,499 --> 00:25:14,299 as recursive constraints and 635 00:25:14,299 --> 00:25:17,375 affordances in identity and viability. 636 00:25:17,375 --> 00:25:21,629 The challenge of social ecological fit. 637 00:25:22,120 --> 00:25:24,679 They'll do the institutions, 638 00:25:24,679 --> 00:25:28,759 social institutions norms match 639 00:25:28,759 --> 00:25:31,954 the boundaries of the ecosystem scale. 640 00:25:31,954 --> 00:25:39,679 While the scribe, frequently 641 00:25:39,679 --> 00:25:41,360 referenced in the industrial and 642 00:25:41,360 --> 00:25:43,294 summarize in that paper by, 643 00:25:43,294 --> 00:25:45,334 by 4K and colleagues, 644 00:25:45,334 --> 00:25:47,690 their challenges exist that 645 00:25:47,690 --> 00:25:49,430 spatial and temporal chemical sales, 646 00:25:49,430 --> 00:25:50,989 it doesn't apply here because 647 00:25:50,989 --> 00:25:54,994 we've detected data applications. 648 00:25:54,994 --> 00:25:57,219 I, you know, I think that this is, well, 649 00:25:57,219 --> 00:25:58,954 well apply tightly coupled 650 00:25:58,954 --> 00:26:01,189 SESS because the coupling where you 651 00:26:01,189 --> 00:26:02,239 got coupling then you don't 652 00:26:02,239 --> 00:26:03,560 have the challenge 653 00:26:03,560 --> 00:26:06,229 of spatial data, right? 654 00:26:06,229 --> 00:26:08,599 So planetary boundaries, the 655 00:26:08,599 --> 00:26:12,200 boundary boundaries clear watersheds, 656 00:26:12,200 --> 00:26:14,749 fisheries management when it's not as 657 00:26:14,749 --> 00:26:16,009 complicated as the West 658 00:26:16,009 --> 00:26:17,300 Coast of North America with, 659 00:26:17,300 --> 00:26:18,739 you know, fisheries, 660 00:26:18,739 --> 00:26:21,364 maybe my group hating my fish, 661 00:26:21,364 --> 00:26:24,650 maybe migrating across national boundaries. 662 00:26:24,650 --> 00:26:26,720 In some cases you can get 663 00:26:26,720 --> 00:26:28,324 a clearer fit, right? 664 00:26:28,324 --> 00:26:31,805 And those are, those are maybe 665 00:26:31,805 --> 00:26:34,324 the most clear applications 666 00:26:34,324 --> 00:26:37,085 and identified elsewhere. 667 00:26:37,085 --> 00:26:39,139 In addition, this can, 668 00:26:39,139 --> 00:26:41,780 this can be applied to educational systems, 669 00:26:41,780 --> 00:26:44,104 financial systems, any, any type of, 670 00:26:44,104 --> 00:26:47,255 any type of system, social system, right? 671 00:26:47,255 --> 00:26:50,345 Analysis of social change through logics, 672 00:26:50,345 --> 00:26:52,760 analysis of Standpoint and Social Change, 673 00:26:52,760 --> 00:26:54,169 dynamics of individual 674 00:26:54,169 --> 00:26:55,624 and collective identity, 675 00:26:55,624 --> 00:26:57,140 purpose and agency, not 676 00:26:57,140 --> 00:27:00,290 depicted in the standard model, but all, 677 00:27:00,290 --> 00:27:02,689 all discuss in this version 678 00:27:02,689 --> 00:27:04,280 that Greg and I feel great, 679 00:27:04,280 --> 00:27:05,270 Helen and I have good news. 680 00:27:05,270 --> 00:27:11,179 And so that's, that's the wrap up. 681 00:27:11,179 --> 00:27:17,479 And one has to ask the question, 682 00:27:17,479 --> 00:27:19,039 oh, I love it when 683 00:27:19,039 --> 00:27:20,660 people give us time to add discussion. 684 00:27:20,660 --> 00:27:24,150 So I'll get right. Yeah, I feel 685 00:27:28,030 --> 00:27:31,969 good. Questions already. 686 00:27:31,969 --> 00:27:38,825 So it's like this is like a theory, 687 00:27:38,825 --> 00:27:42,380 medical theory that could be useful 688 00:27:42,380 --> 00:27:46,759 for dealing some actual beads. 689 00:27:46,759 --> 00:27:52,040 So biologies that education 690 00:27:52,040 --> 00:27:55,384 and this point of view might help one better. 691 00:27:55,384 --> 00:28:00,110 Grades mean are already 692 00:28:00,110 --> 00:28:02,585 referencing this Manuel mode. 693 00:28:02,585 --> 00:28:06,679 If I this is the high level view, 694 00:28:06,679 --> 00:28:08,449 high level theoretical view and I 695 00:28:08,449 --> 00:28:10,954 think probably is familiar. 696 00:28:10,954 --> 00:28:16,444 It's so okay, so this, 697 00:28:16,444 --> 00:28:17,990 this is a somewhat different 698 00:28:17,990 --> 00:28:20,060 take on things maybe. 699 00:28:20,060 --> 00:28:21,739 But you're doing it. 700 00:28:21,739 --> 00:28:24,965 Because ultimately because you want, 701 00:28:24,965 --> 00:28:28,550 say, social actions be Warp effect. 702 00:28:28,550 --> 00:28:32,419 You want if you're a manager and 703 00:28:32,419 --> 00:28:34,429 still not have counter-intuitive 704 00:28:34,429 --> 00:28:36,274 adverse effects or 705 00:28:36,274 --> 00:28:38,059 you're doing this because 706 00:28:38,059 --> 00:28:40,550 this mindset you think would be 707 00:28:40,550 --> 00:28:42,410 useful in the real world by 708 00:28:42,410 --> 00:28:46,009 people like ego tries APL. 709 00:28:46,009 --> 00:28:51,155 So what can you walk us through? 710 00:28:51,155 --> 00:28:52,699 How this way of 711 00:28:52,699 --> 00:28:55,700 thinking to prevent people from 712 00:28:55,700 --> 00:28:57,919 making mistakes were made people 713 00:28:57,919 --> 00:29:00,830 more effective or what? 714 00:29:00,830 --> 00:29:03,110 The bottom-line peo, Right? 715 00:29:03,110 --> 00:29:07,039 Right. Yeah. Yeah. When I presented this ad, 716 00:29:07,039 --> 00:29:12,019 I'm Adam ASC, a few months ago. 717 00:29:12,019 --> 00:29:13,745 Ray, I sense that there's a, 718 00:29:13,745 --> 00:29:15,439 there's a fifth step here or 719 00:29:15,439 --> 00:29:18,635 a or sequence that you haven't mentioned yet? 720 00:29:18,635 --> 00:29:22,639 Exactly what yeah. 721 00:29:22,639 --> 00:29:31,230 Yeah. Oh, well, 722 00:29:31,450 --> 00:29:33,860 you know, it it it it certainly 723 00:29:33,860 --> 00:29:36,514 is is theoretical served. 724 00:29:36,514 --> 00:29:44,029 And there are things that 725 00:29:44,029 --> 00:29:48,019 we can conceptualize here 726 00:29:48,019 --> 00:29:51,454 that are limited by the, 727 00:29:51,454 --> 00:29:54,930 the integrated landscape, right? 728 00:29:55,000 --> 00:29:58,894 We can conceptualize, change 729 00:29:58,894 --> 00:30:02,659 it into an individual organizational, 730 00:30:02,659 --> 00:30:06,420 social, and ecological levels. 731 00:30:11,200 --> 00:30:16,520 I'm going to answer a way uglier. 732 00:30:16,520 --> 00:30:20,840 But so in my undergrad background, 733 00:30:20,840 --> 00:30:23,479 did some classes in resilience 734 00:30:23,479 --> 00:30:26,224 in international relations contexts. 735 00:30:26,224 --> 00:30:29,060 And you know, it's a problem area is, well, 736 00:30:29,060 --> 00:30:30,920 our government structures or 737 00:30:30,920 --> 00:30:32,120 at the national level, 738 00:30:32,120 --> 00:30:33,379 but our environmental problems 739 00:30:33,379 --> 00:30:34,775 are at the global level. 740 00:30:34,775 --> 00:30:37,550 To higher create governmental structures 741 00:30:37,550 --> 00:30:39,754 at the global level to solve those problems. 742 00:30:39,754 --> 00:30:41,164 Or are we don't 743 00:30:41,164 --> 00:30:42,860 have any solutions to those problems. 744 00:30:42,860 --> 00:30:44,360 And all the problems. 745 00:30:44,360 --> 00:30:46,610 The solutions, the problems are described as 746 00:30:46,610 --> 00:30:49,695 being some or other manner. 747 00:30:49,695 --> 00:30:52,390 So we need to prioritize 748 00:30:52,390 --> 00:30:54,399 it and let market forces fix 749 00:30:54,399 --> 00:30:57,550 everything before we can create some sort of 750 00:30:57,550 --> 00:30:59,740 governmental control or agency 751 00:30:59,740 --> 00:31:02,905 that can help manage some of these problems. 752 00:31:02,905 --> 00:31:04,930 And then, you know, there's literature from 753 00:31:04,930 --> 00:31:05,980 both sides attacking 754 00:31:05,980 --> 00:31:07,810 neither of those positions. 755 00:31:07,810 --> 00:31:12,580 But the one of a model that I mean, 756 00:31:12,580 --> 00:31:14,259 if I have time might be useful as you know, 757 00:31:14,259 --> 00:31:15,835 what if people just wanting 758 00:31:15,835 --> 00:31:18,594 different things than they currently wines? 759 00:31:18,594 --> 00:31:19,630 There's just not really 760 00:31:19,630 --> 00:31:20,620 a way to talk about that 761 00:31:20,620 --> 00:31:22,719 in your integrated systems. 762 00:31:22,719 --> 00:31:24,159 Do that over here. 763 00:31:24,159 --> 00:31:25,614 You're talking about how 764 00:31:25,614 --> 00:31:27,129 individual changes can 765 00:31:27,129 --> 00:31:28,809 result in organizational changes, 766 00:31:28,809 --> 00:31:30,610 which resulted in social changes, 767 00:31:30,610 --> 00:31:32,425 which can result in ecological changes. 768 00:31:32,425 --> 00:31:34,194 But also the ways that 769 00:31:34,194 --> 00:31:37,059 individual beliefs are identities are 770 00:31:37,059 --> 00:31:40,120 constrained by their participation in 771 00:31:40,120 --> 00:31:41,620 a larger sense of 772 00:31:41,620 --> 00:31:43,630 being able to just make that explicit. 773 00:31:43,630 --> 00:31:45,129 Lets you talk about, 774 00:31:45,129 --> 00:31:49,074 you know, how, do you know how this works? 775 00:31:49,074 --> 00:31:51,474 And then works its way back down? 776 00:31:51,474 --> 00:31:53,859 I guess like talking about 777 00:31:53,859 --> 00:31:56,484 the values of a country, you know, 778 00:31:56,484 --> 00:31:57,640 doesn't really make sense unless 779 00:31:57,640 --> 00:31:58,900 you're talking about aggregating 780 00:31:58,900 --> 00:32:02,109 the individual or your community values 781 00:32:02,109 --> 00:32:03,999 that make up that country comments. 782 00:32:03,999 --> 00:32:06,429 So again, being able to point that out, 783 00:32:06,429 --> 00:32:08,784 we're just aggregate those. 784 00:32:08,784 --> 00:32:12,469 Lets you focus on those dynamics. I guess. 785 00:32:15,180 --> 00:32:18,924 I just got give just one. 786 00:32:18,924 --> 00:32:21,174 Don't love theory. 787 00:32:21,174 --> 00:32:23,274 I totally love theory 788 00:32:23,274 --> 00:32:24,940 for its own sake, right? 789 00:32:24,940 --> 00:32:26,859 But, you know, when I, 790 00:32:26,859 --> 00:32:28,960 when I see your efforts, 791 00:32:28,960 --> 00:32:30,399 that looks like where it's almost 792 00:32:30,399 --> 00:32:32,019 eight than I, I'm, 793 00:32:32,019 --> 00:32:36,504 I go, I put on rice. 794 00:32:36,504 --> 00:32:38,920 And if this theory shows that our, 795 00:32:38,920 --> 00:32:41,604 this thing models don't well capture what, 796 00:32:41,604 --> 00:32:44,439 what system change looks like then isn't it 797 00:32:44,439 --> 00:32:46,750 worth pointing that out 798 00:32:46,750 --> 00:32:49,190 and developing some alternatives? 799 00:32:49,190 --> 00:32:53,439 Well, the problem is, 800 00:32:53,540 --> 00:32:56,054 let's say one chain. 801 00:32:56,054 --> 00:32:57,569 What is the problem with climate 802 00:32:57,569 --> 00:32:58,589 change is that people 803 00:32:58,589 --> 00:33:01,754 don't accept diverse cybernetic model. 804 00:33:01,754 --> 00:33:05,070 Not a problem. We're not including ourselves. 805 00:33:05,070 --> 00:33:06,540 We do include ourselves 806 00:33:06,540 --> 00:33:08,429 and model it's anthropogenic, 807 00:33:08,429 --> 00:33:11,069 so is maybe others 808 00:33:11,069 --> 00:33:13,079 alone does not. Everyone dies, right? 809 00:33:13,079 --> 00:33:15,149 But that isn't the prop liquor 810 00:33:15,149 --> 00:33:18,269 that you only have articles which 811 00:33:18,269 --> 00:33:19,859 really are kind of first-order 812 00:33:19,859 --> 00:33:21,480 models and they're not 813 00:33:21,480 --> 00:33:23,564 accepted by a very large number of 814 00:33:23,564 --> 00:33:26,265 people and by powerful forces. 815 00:33:26,265 --> 00:33:28,230 So the problem isn't that we're not 816 00:33:28,230 --> 00:33:31,475 including ourselves and the model problem is, 817 00:33:31,475 --> 00:33:34,809 at an engineering type model of 818 00:33:34,809 --> 00:33:36,820 reality is not accepted as 819 00:33:36,820 --> 00:33:39,279 true by lot of people. 820 00:33:39,279 --> 00:33:42,189 But you can figure out who those people are 821 00:33:42,189 --> 00:33:45,669 by the communities that they participate in. 822 00:33:45,669 --> 00:33:49,179 And so how do I constitute my identity while 823 00:33:49,179 --> 00:33:50,874 I'm a member of a group 824 00:33:50,874 --> 00:33:52,959 that doesn't believe in this stuff. 825 00:33:52,959 --> 00:33:55,404 I believe in my watermelons, 826 00:33:55,404 --> 00:33:57,370 grease on the outside, fat on the inside. 827 00:33:57,370 --> 00:33:58,570 And this involves the plots 828 00:33:58,570 --> 00:34:00,085 take away our freedoms. 829 00:34:00,085 --> 00:34:06,550 You know, basically it's, you. 830 00:34:06,550 --> 00:34:08,920 Have your views which are coming to 831 00:34:08,920 --> 00:34:10,060 you from the community 832 00:34:10,060 --> 00:34:11,364 that you participate in. 833 00:34:11,364 --> 00:34:13,090 And those communities are informed 834 00:34:13,090 --> 00:34:16,600 by their Rome's larger structures. 835 00:34:16,600 --> 00:34:18,250 So again, it's just giving you some language 836 00:34:18,250 --> 00:34:22,060 to identify who isn't, who is anchored. 837 00:34:22,060 --> 00:34:26,635 In addition, we specify a language, 838 00:34:26,635 --> 00:34:31,360 C language for describing systemic change, 839 00:34:31,360 --> 00:34:33,010 systemic social change, right? 840 00:34:33,010 --> 00:34:36,760 This idea of logics and institutional, 841 00:34:36,760 --> 00:34:38,229 along with the definition 842 00:34:38,229 --> 00:34:39,535 of a social attractor, 843 00:34:39,535 --> 00:34:43,880 which as far as I know, didn't exist. 844 00:34:43,980 --> 00:34:51,040 Before. Just turned on the camera. 845 00:34:51,040 --> 00:34:52,510 I didn't do it earlier so that people 846 00:34:52,510 --> 00:34:55,899 out there are 16 people on either side. 847 00:34:55,899 --> 00:34:58,149 It looks like. And I'm going 848 00:34:58,149 --> 00:34:59,994 to encourage those of you in the ether. 849 00:34:59,994 --> 00:35:02,259 If you want to ask a question, 850 00:35:02,259 --> 00:35:04,255 just type it in the chat box and I'll, 851 00:35:04,255 --> 00:35:07,900 I'll ask a question in from here. Say, Yeah. 852 00:35:07,900 --> 00:35:10,375 Well, I want to 853 00:35:10,375 --> 00:35:12,610 point out something that's Neta. 854 00:35:12,610 --> 00:35:16,435 We might say Q model, something's not fair. 855 00:35:16,435 --> 00:35:19,059 And that is, the idea of 856 00:35:19,059 --> 00:35:23,815 originality is definitely not to space. 857 00:35:23,815 --> 00:35:25,690 We would ban wise situation 858 00:35:25,690 --> 00:35:28,390 is that you're still. 859 00:35:28,390 --> 00:35:33,689 So think I'm Rachel Carson's introduction of 860 00:35:33,689 --> 00:35:36,359 the serious problem of 861 00:35:36,359 --> 00:35:40,755 pollution to the world. 862 00:35:40,755 --> 00:35:42,795 What we now think of as 863 00:35:42,795 --> 00:35:46,454 ecological libraries and noses in the not. 864 00:35:46,454 --> 00:35:49,485 So you end up with an idea being what word, 865 00:35:49,485 --> 00:35:51,900 which we all agree 866 00:35:51,900 --> 00:35:53,610 with Silent Spring 867 00:35:53,610 --> 00:35:55,589 as really important influence. 868 00:35:55,589 --> 00:35:57,704 But it isn't within the model. 869 00:35:57,704 --> 00:35:59,924 And if it isn't worth it, 870 00:35:59,924 --> 00:36:02,100 working within spec, 871 00:36:02,100 --> 00:36:04,139 we had something new is not there. 872 00:36:04,139 --> 00:36:06,735 The individual has brought something out, 873 00:36:06,735 --> 00:36:08,009 but it's new, does not get 874 00:36:08,009 --> 00:36:09,524 into an existing paradigm. 875 00:36:09,524 --> 00:36:11,519 It's gotta get spread by some other means. 876 00:36:11,519 --> 00:36:13,815 Bad attribute this embed, it's not in here. 877 00:36:13,815 --> 00:36:15,910 They're saying another measure 878 00:36:15,910 --> 00:36:18,055 that it's something, move that around. 879 00:36:18,055 --> 00:36:20,619 The other thing is that as red, 880 00:36:20,619 --> 00:36:21,804 let's go back to here. 881 00:36:21,804 --> 00:36:25,150 Let's say a pathogenic IBM 882 00:36:25,150 --> 00:36:27,579 comes in and begins twice new IT system. 883 00:36:27,579 --> 00:36:29,169 That too is 884 00:36:29,169 --> 00:36:30,864 a different kind of original system, 885 00:36:30,864 --> 00:36:32,515 isn't with their illnesses. 886 00:36:32,515 --> 00:36:36,625 Either one is treated 887 00:36:36,625 --> 00:36:40,975 by a preexisting format within the system. 888 00:36:40,975 --> 00:36:44,350 So to me, that is, 889 00:36:44,350 --> 00:36:45,909 since we seem to be 890 00:36:45,909 --> 00:36:47,920 learning organisms which do 891 00:36:47,920 --> 00:36:49,539 classification and we 892 00:36:49,539 --> 00:36:52,165 have new pacification idea. 893 00:36:52,165 --> 00:36:54,144 That seems to be something which 894 00:36:54,144 --> 00:36:56,555 really should be considered Buddhist. 895 00:36:56,555 --> 00:37:00,105 When we get to question improvement, 896 00:37:00,105 --> 00:37:01,930 destruction. 897 00:37:02,090 --> 00:37:06,285 Interesting enough. 898 00:37:06,285 --> 00:37:12,599 You satisfy the top chart 899 00:37:12,599 --> 00:37:17,295 brings to mind the online fitness landscapes. 900 00:37:17,295 --> 00:37:23,115 Yes. Substrates, infrared, light. 901 00:37:23,115 --> 00:37:24,960 And so the current environment worry 902 00:37:24,960 --> 00:37:28,650 and represents a series of 903 00:37:28,650 --> 00:37:33,569 fitness landscapes where the challenges 904 00:37:33,569 --> 00:37:35,940 to move an entity 905 00:37:35,940 --> 00:37:38,859 from a PICU fitness landscape. 906 00:37:38,880 --> 00:37:41,920 There are indeed violate right onto 907 00:37:41,920 --> 00:37:43,115 another fitness landscape. 908 00:37:43,115 --> 00:37:44,245 And that's a challenge. 909 00:37:44,245 --> 00:37:44,950 I think with 910 00:37:44,950 --> 00:37:51,864 the Rachel Carson Charleston example. 911 00:37:51,864 --> 00:37:53,200 When the river started to 912 00:37:53,200 --> 00:37:56,350 catch on fire ignites, 913 00:37:56,350 --> 00:37:58,885 the elites began to pay a price for it. 914 00:37:58,885 --> 00:38:00,279 That was oscillations to 915 00:38:00,279 --> 00:38:06,010 move between the signing 916 00:38:06,010 --> 00:38:07,600 and the fitness landscape. 917 00:38:07,600 --> 00:38:08,709 And you certainly worried about 918 00:38:08,709 --> 00:38:12,610 previous burning situation 919 00:38:12,610 --> 00:38:14,304 which was recognized before. 920 00:38:14,304 --> 00:38:15,879 So you basically don't have 921 00:38:15,879 --> 00:38:17,680 it move through the landscape. 922 00:38:17,680 --> 00:38:19,690 You have defined your also. 923 00:38:19,690 --> 00:38:21,849 But the current picture 924 00:38:21,849 --> 00:38:23,890 on what comes so uncomfortable. 925 00:38:23,890 --> 00:38:25,000 Yeah, we're getting find 926 00:38:25,000 --> 00:38:26,410 something new to do what I'm saying that 927 00:38:26,410 --> 00:38:29,814 the news is not there to just build all grey. 928 00:38:29,814 --> 00:38:33,340 Sure. Yeah. Because any 929 00:38:33,340 --> 00:38:35,844 on the social level here, 930 00:38:35,844 --> 00:38:37,629 this is, this is the level 931 00:38:37,629 --> 00:38:39,205 of possible regimes, right? 932 00:38:39,205 --> 00:38:41,695 And so we shifted to a regime 933 00:38:41,695 --> 00:38:45,160 of regulation around the, 934 00:38:45,160 --> 00:38:48,595 the, the pollutants that were perceived 935 00:38:48,595 --> 00:38:50,620 as causing the issue 936 00:38:50,620 --> 00:38:52,900 that you buy them by Rachel Carson or that. 937 00:38:52,900 --> 00:38:54,699 But, yes, but you got 938 00:38:54,699 --> 00:38:57,864 regimes which Bush didn't need advocation, 939 00:38:57,864 --> 00:38:59,844 wasn't known to exist. 940 00:38:59,844 --> 00:39:01,539 My leisure. 941 00:39:01,539 --> 00:39:03,130 You can, you can argue 942 00:39:03,130 --> 00:39:05,409 that all possible existences, 943 00:39:05,409 --> 00:39:06,909 or in your model, that 944 00:39:06,909 --> 00:39:08,544 wood is nothing discovered. 945 00:39:08,544 --> 00:39:09,909 But they don't model wouldn't make 946 00:39:09,909 --> 00:39:12,130 any sense because it's covered. 947 00:39:12,130 --> 00:39:14,334 It's me. 948 00:39:14,334 --> 00:39:15,760 A different collection of 949 00:39:15,760 --> 00:39:17,319 variables for describing 950 00:39:17,319 --> 00:39:19,720 the social Russian question 951 00:39:19,720 --> 00:39:23,425 prompting offer from it. 952 00:39:23,425 --> 00:39:25,779 When you say that the first model that I 953 00:39:25,779 --> 00:39:27,940 think any in the column 954 00:39:27,940 --> 00:39:29,949 that's to the left is 955 00:39:29,949 --> 00:39:32,109 more of a change problem approach. 956 00:39:32,109 --> 00:39:33,910 And the second being more fitting to 957 00:39:33,910 --> 00:39:36,684 be wicked problem point of view. 958 00:39:36,684 --> 00:39:38,769 I wouldn't make that distinction. 959 00:39:38,769 --> 00:39:47,095 Now. You know, this, they're using, 960 00:39:47,095 --> 00:39:48,850 they're using this integrated model 961 00:39:48,850 --> 00:39:51,010 to describe planetary boundaries 962 00:39:51,010 --> 00:39:52,959 and shifts 963 00:39:52,959 --> 00:39:55,510 in lake ecosystems and fisheries systems, 964 00:39:55,510 --> 00:39:57,519 many different types of 965 00:39:57,519 --> 00:40:00,969 of applications that we got. 966 00:40:00,969 --> 00:40:03,490 I don't have any control volume, 967 00:40:03,490 --> 00:40:06,534 probably just nice everyone knows something. 968 00:40:06,534 --> 00:40:09,159 Right? And those examples 969 00:40:09,159 --> 00:40:10,839 are all collected on 970 00:40:10,839 --> 00:40:16,359 this regime shifts.org website. 971 00:40:16,359 --> 00:40:19,660 How do you know when to stop the recursion? 972 00:40:19,660 --> 00:40:22,375 We you well, you know, 973 00:40:22,375 --> 00:40:23,649 I'm I decide I'm going 974 00:40:23,649 --> 00:40:25,030 to step out and observe it. 975 00:40:25,030 --> 00:40:28,630 Then. The possibility of, I mean, 976 00:40:28,630 --> 00:40:30,400 we always love to play games with 977 00:40:30,400 --> 00:40:31,509 recursion models for 978 00:40:31,509 --> 00:40:32,845 that reason I'm just wondering, 979 00:40:32,845 --> 00:40:35,049 is a single level of 980 00:40:35,049 --> 00:40:36,099 recursion and there's no 981 00:40:36,099 --> 00:40:37,495 reason to stop there. 982 00:40:37,495 --> 00:40:40,060 Right? So, all right. 983 00:40:40,060 --> 00:40:41,980 But I don't know how to apply that idea 984 00:40:41,980 --> 00:40:43,105 because you don't want those 985 00:40:43,105 --> 00:40:44,590 rehearsals in your brain. 986 00:40:44,590 --> 00:40:46,734 That's useful actually, right? 987 00:40:46,734 --> 00:40:49,690 I mean, we could talk here about 988 00:40:49,690 --> 00:40:52,960 the extent or breathing 989 00:40:52,960 --> 00:40:54,580 can go lower than the individual. 990 00:40:54,580 --> 00:40:57,130 Yeah, yeah, exactly exactly where I'm going. 991 00:40:57,130 --> 00:41:00,640 I mean, we could talk about is identity. 992 00:41:00,640 --> 00:41:03,249 Encapsulated conduit typically are 993 00:41:03,249 --> 00:41:08,050 biologically and there are similar kind of. 994 00:41:08,050 --> 00:41:11,289 Hierarchies that incorporate a, 995 00:41:11,289 --> 00:41:15,220 a biological or, or cognitive level. 996 00:41:15,220 --> 00:41:17,455 Yeah. Let me see. 997 00:41:17,455 --> 00:41:19,345 This building that dagger, 998 00:41:19,345 --> 00:41:22,660 Pythagorean has a pattern like that, 999 00:41:22,660 --> 00:41:25,809 a penalty like, like, you know, yeah, 1000 00:41:25,809 --> 00:41:27,549 he hasn't, he, he's, 1001 00:41:27,549 --> 00:41:29,140 he's not using landscapes are 1002 00:41:29,140 --> 00:41:31,090 not using adaptive cycles, 1003 00:41:31,090 --> 00:41:32,650 but he is using describing 1004 00:41:32,650 --> 00:41:33,849 the level approach in 1005 00:41:33,849 --> 00:41:38,330 which the continent or, or biological. 1006 00:41:39,180 --> 00:41:41,889 But going the other way that we often 1007 00:41:41,889 --> 00:41:43,735 are looking at a local problems. 1008 00:41:43,735 --> 00:41:45,040 And then the idea of 1009 00:41:45,040 --> 00:41:47,470 expanding from a local perspective 1010 00:41:47,470 --> 00:41:51,700 outward is another expansion 1011 00:41:51,700 --> 00:41:53,004 of perspective, I guess. 1012 00:41:53,004 --> 00:41:54,369 So the key here really 1013 00:41:54,369 --> 00:41:56,905 seems to be one perspective. 1014 00:41:56,905 --> 00:41:59,290 And it seems like I don't know 1015 00:41:59,290 --> 00:42:00,909 if the word identity and 1016 00:42:00,909 --> 00:42:04,165 the words perspective are 1017 00:42:04,165 --> 00:42:06,264 necessarily not closely connected. 1018 00:42:06,264 --> 00:42:07,660 In this case, it feels like there 1019 00:42:07,660 --> 00:42:10,510 is kind of a relationship there. 1020 00:42:10,510 --> 00:42:12,099 And we know just 1021 00:42:12,099 --> 00:42:14,574 instinctively that taking new, 1022 00:42:14,574 --> 00:42:16,690 different respect is finding 1023 00:42:16,690 --> 00:42:19,960 some way to get ourselves out of the box, 1024 00:42:19,960 --> 00:42:21,640 as you kept saying, is so 1025 00:42:21,640 --> 00:42:24,460 important to doing good thinking. 1026 00:42:24,460 --> 00:42:27,489 I like that. I tend to use the word 1027 00:42:27,489 --> 00:42:31,824 standpoint as, as perspective. 1028 00:42:31,824 --> 00:42:33,430 Can, can shift, but 1029 00:42:33,430 --> 00:42:35,965 standpoint is more embodied. 1030 00:42:35,965 --> 00:42:37,060 Yeah, that's why I 1031 00:42:37,060 --> 00:42:39,379 think the distinction there. 1032 00:42:42,090 --> 00:42:47,959 I'm still thinking. Yes, so 1033 00:42:48,810 --> 00:42:54,864 this gives your model is which one? 1034 00:42:54,864 --> 00:42:58,225 This is another this is another model. 1035 00:42:58,225 --> 00:43:00,985 I'm sorry. That you're all yeah. 1036 00:43:00,985 --> 00:43:03,369 All of these are models. 1037 00:43:03,369 --> 00:43:05,110 Yeah. I mean, I'm 1038 00:43:05,110 --> 00:43:06,549 fascinated with this one, not, 1039 00:43:06,549 --> 00:43:10,480 not homeless bending where I've eaten at. 1040 00:43:10,480 --> 00:43:13,279 Delighted to hear your thoughts on it. 1041 00:43:13,710 --> 00:43:15,939 And you think that 1042 00:43:15,939 --> 00:43:19,194 they're better than other models. 1043 00:43:19,194 --> 00:43:21,639 With regard to this one, 1044 00:43:21,639 --> 00:43:23,034 I think there's something 1045 00:43:23,034 --> 00:43:24,369 interesting to say in 1046 00:43:24,369 --> 00:43:32,215 that I don't thinks, 1047 00:43:32,215 --> 00:43:34,450 I think there's something here 1048 00:43:34,450 --> 00:43:35,740 about that can't be 1049 00:43:35,740 --> 00:43:38,600 captured by syllogistic reasoning. 1050 00:43:40,110 --> 00:43:43,000 And so purse, when 1051 00:43:43,000 --> 00:43:45,070 pers talks 1052 00:43:45,070 --> 00:43:46,870 about abduct deck or a retroactive, 1053 00:43:46,870 --> 00:43:48,130 he goes to this 1054 00:43:48,130 --> 00:43:50,244 is a 100 plus years ago, right? 1055 00:43:50,244 --> 00:43:51,939 He goes to still just that kind 1056 00:43:51,939 --> 00:43:56,214 of approaches to defining, defining them. 1057 00:43:56,214 --> 00:43:58,599 And I, I, there's 1058 00:43:58,599 --> 00:43:59,859 something about this ladder of 1059 00:43:59,859 --> 00:44:01,180 reasoning that I don't think it's law 1060 00:44:01,180 --> 00:44:04,370 captured by some of just the format's. 1061 00:44:08,670 --> 00:44:11,019 Yeah, I think it does seem like 1062 00:44:11,019 --> 00:44:14,305 a of these it's useful to, 1063 00:44:14,305 --> 00:44:16,510 to ground ourselves in, 1064 00:44:16,510 --> 00:44:18,850 in analytical 1065 00:44:18,850 --> 00:44:20,229 reasoning and inductive reasoning. 1066 00:44:20,229 --> 00:44:22,674 We use those a lot and ask ourselves, 1067 00:44:22,674 --> 00:44:25,599 how do we, what wore on? 1068 00:44:25,599 --> 00:44:28,640 I think this idea of thinking analogies. 1069 00:44:28,650 --> 00:44:30,849 I guess you could argue that 1070 00:44:30,849 --> 00:44:33,249 analogies are kind of closely related kin. 1071 00:44:33,249 --> 00:44:35,710 Reasoning maybe, but yeah, but they're not. 1072 00:44:35,710 --> 00:44:37,989 How do we just get more mileage out of 1073 00:44:37,989 --> 00:44:39,999 our different ways of thinking, right? 1074 00:44:39,999 --> 00:44:42,805 So they're definitely these triangles hover. 1075 00:44:42,805 --> 00:44:44,439 So I described, in the example 1076 00:44:44,439 --> 00:44:46,284 that I've described right about, 1077 00:44:46,284 --> 00:44:47,890 I'm working on an annual report. 1078 00:44:47,890 --> 00:44:49,539 I look at other annual reports 1079 00:44:49,539 --> 00:44:51,475 to inform what I want to do, right? 1080 00:44:51,475 --> 00:44:53,560 I'm not looking to create synthesised, 1081 00:44:53,560 --> 00:44:55,119 so that's, that's not 1082 00:44:55,119 --> 00:44:56,860 the right way. But there is this. 1083 00:44:56,860 --> 00:44:59,754 How do I select instances 1084 00:44:59,754 --> 00:45:01,270 from which it can develop 1085 00:45:01,270 --> 00:45:03,190 analogical reasoning, right? 1086 00:45:03,190 --> 00:45:05,335 That, that, those selection of 1087 00:45:05,335 --> 00:45:08,695 instances rely on a categorical, 1088 00:45:08,695 --> 00:45:11,020 implied, implicit, 1089 00:45:11,020 --> 00:45:12,460 perhaps, probably implicit, 1090 00:45:12,460 --> 00:45:14,110 probably not explicit, had 1091 00:45:14,110 --> 00:45:15,489 a girl assumption about 1092 00:45:15,489 --> 00:45:17,665 what counts as a valid instance. 1093 00:45:17,665 --> 00:45:20,665 Right. And thus the example of our, 1094 00:45:20,665 --> 00:45:22,420 what if an annual report look more 1095 00:45:22,420 --> 00:45:24,655 like a like a postcard? 1096 00:45:24,655 --> 00:45:26,634 That's when you've, so, 1097 00:45:26,634 --> 00:45:28,240 so that is going back to 1098 00:45:28,240 --> 00:45:30,174 an inductive categorization, right? 1099 00:45:30,174 --> 00:45:31,389 In order to get outside 1100 00:45:31,389 --> 00:45:32,739 the box, Joseph, I mean, 1101 00:45:32,739 --> 00:45:34,329 you wouldn't need to necessarily do 1102 00:45:34,329 --> 00:45:36,280 any new inductive reasoning in 1103 00:45:36,280 --> 00:45:38,379 order to do your analogical reasoning, 1104 00:45:38,379 --> 00:45:39,550 you can you, somebody's 1105 00:45:39,550 --> 00:45:44,574 existing category system and just a o, a lot. 1106 00:45:44,574 --> 00:45:46,840 Given that we can, 1107 00:45:46,840 --> 00:45:48,310 we can say all these things are a 1108 00:45:48,310 --> 00:45:51,400 late under this aspect, 1109 00:45:51,400 --> 00:45:54,039 right at the end of a certain sort of 1110 00:45:54,039 --> 00:45:55,959 surfaces and essences 1111 00:45:55,959 --> 00:45:57,669 Douglas Hofstadter book. 1112 00:45:57,669 --> 00:46:00,429 He basically comes to the conclusion that 1113 00:46:00,429 --> 00:46:02,485 analogy and category are 1114 00:46:02,485 --> 00:46:04,090 kinda hard to separate. 1115 00:46:04,090 --> 00:46:06,130 And at some, at some point, well, yeah, 1116 00:46:06,130 --> 00:46:07,960 after 400 pages of giving us 1117 00:46:07,960 --> 00:46:11,360 all these examples, analogies, right? 1118 00:46:12,210 --> 00:46:15,879 You know, he's, he's thesis in that book 1119 00:46:15,879 --> 00:46:18,805 is a thesis of a cognitive scientist. 1120 00:46:18,805 --> 00:46:20,304 He's trying to say, argue that 1121 00:46:20,304 --> 00:46:22,165 analogy is the core of cognition. 1122 00:46:22,165 --> 00:46:24,340 Or that's not what I'm doing. 1123 00:46:24,340 --> 00:46:27,860 All right, I want this as a tool for design, 1124 00:46:28,500 --> 00:46:30,970 design perspective rather than 1125 00:46:30,970 --> 00:46:33,410 a cognitive science perspective. 1126 00:46:33,720 --> 00:46:39,984 So theta, so as to preside, 1127 00:46:39,984 --> 00:46:42,379 Let's say hello to 1128 00:46:42,379 --> 00:46:44,065 address a problem like 1129 00:46:44,065 --> 00:46:45,369 climate change or something 1130 00:46:45,369 --> 00:46:48,115 where I think the solution 1131 00:46:48,115 --> 00:46:49,749 is changing 1132 00:46:49,749 --> 00:46:52,630 people's your themselves can change it. 1133 00:46:52,630 --> 00:46:53,710 So they think they're part of 1134 00:46:53,710 --> 00:46:58,345 the whole shape them individual houses down. 1135 00:46:58,345 --> 00:46:59,710 And why do we use this 1136 00:46:59,710 --> 00:47:01,554 to approach that problem? 1137 00:47:01,554 --> 00:47:05,275 Yeah. Yeah, overcoming inertia. 1138 00:47:05,275 --> 00:47:08,679 Yeah. I mean, so chosen ethnic and says, 1139 00:47:08,679 --> 00:47:10,944 I think I will write, 1140 00:47:10,944 --> 00:47:13,149 this has helped me to refinance 1141 00:47:13,149 --> 00:47:14,814 or to show battalion eval. 1142 00:47:14,814 --> 00:47:18,729 Does Haraway probably yeah. 1143 00:47:18,729 --> 00:47:22,419 Lot up to the top. 1144 00:47:22,419 --> 00:47:25,435 Yeah. Because unless that problem 1145 00:47:25,435 --> 00:47:28,465 solve unsolved problem at this point, 1146 00:47:28,465 --> 00:47:30,700 we have an example though. 1147 00:47:30,700 --> 00:47:31,524 I think it was China. 1148 00:47:31,524 --> 00:47:33,550 China. They just, they analogical. 1149 00:47:33,550 --> 00:47:35,409 They take all our staff can they displayed 1150 00:47:35,409 --> 00:47:37,750 hindrances as close to the shipper wall, 1151 00:47:37,750 --> 00:47:38,050 obviously, 1152 00:47:38,050 --> 00:47:40,210 you can't bring more startling and neglect. 1153 00:47:40,210 --> 00:47:42,084 Different people recreated 1154 00:47:42,084 --> 00:47:43,480 a kind of internet stuff which 1155 00:47:43,480 --> 00:47:45,580 is enormously recreative process 1156 00:47:45,580 --> 00:47:46,870 that can use. 1157 00:47:46,870 --> 00:47:48,954 Websites are there and they created, 1158 00:47:48,954 --> 00:47:50,499 recreated capitalism over there. 1159 00:47:50,499 --> 00:47:52,120 It's just like the 19 sixties 1160 00:47:52,120 --> 00:47:53,410 on its CPU time of 1161 00:47:53,410 --> 00:47:57,010 learner for everybody's buy-in to capitalism. 1162 00:47:57,010 --> 00:47:58,149 Can China still 1163 00:47:58,149 --> 00:48:00,520 communists. First the government. 1164 00:48:00,520 --> 00:48:03,129 So that's where analogical, 1165 00:48:03,129 --> 00:48:05,140 I swear I see analogical reasoning thing 1166 00:48:05,140 --> 00:48:06,640 out right now let me shine. 1167 00:48:06,640 --> 00:48:09,309 It does not trim 1168 00:48:09,309 --> 00:48:11,995 another example with medical care 1169 00:48:11,995 --> 00:48:15,505 to the US versus 1170 00:48:15,505 --> 00:48:19,090 a solution that's tied up with a bow, 1171 00:48:19,090 --> 00:48:22,465 Europe for how to do it. 1172 00:48:22,465 --> 00:48:26,529 And that's why they're inertial problem. 1173 00:48:26,529 --> 00:48:29,404 How do you overcome that inertia to Lou, 1174 00:48:29,404 --> 00:48:33,069 system, to a readymade solution? 1175 00:48:33,069 --> 00:48:37,370 Right? And you backtrack crisis. 1176 00:48:37,710 --> 00:48:41,750 I'm sorry. The leverage points you're right. 1177 00:48:43,050 --> 00:48:46,419 Like knows. And I 1178 00:48:46,419 --> 00:48:50,380 guess the idea here that your time at 1179 00:48:50,380 --> 00:48:53,125 the most effective leverage points are 1180 00:48:53,125 --> 00:48:55,029 that the knowledge that there is 1181 00:48:55,029 --> 00:48:56,950 a paradigm shift that's possible, 1182 00:48:56,950 --> 00:48:58,300 or the ability to change 1183 00:48:58,300 --> 00:48:59,799 the way you think about something. 1184 00:48:59,799 --> 00:49:01,120 And then among the least 1185 00:49:01,120 --> 00:49:03,145 effective leverage points are 1186 00:49:03,145 --> 00:49:05,409 tinkering around metrics or 1187 00:49:05,409 --> 00:49:07,390 rules or, or reconnections. 1188 00:49:07,390 --> 00:49:08,739 And so I guess what I'd say is, you 1189 00:49:08,739 --> 00:49:10,060 know, again, 1190 00:49:10,060 --> 00:49:12,699 just coming to the policy background, 1191 00:49:12,699 --> 00:49:13,870 we think of these problems is 1192 00:49:13,870 --> 00:49:15,249 things that we need to solve by 1193 00:49:15,249 --> 00:49:18,070 either making rules for tweaking rules, 1194 00:49:18,070 --> 00:49:19,780 but nice things that we can 1195 00:49:19,780 --> 00:49:22,060 solve as easily through this kind 1196 00:49:22,060 --> 00:49:24,970 of change in values 1197 00:49:24,970 --> 00:49:26,815 are changing in paradigms. 1198 00:49:26,815 --> 00:49:28,689 And again, I would say, is 1199 00:49:28,689 --> 00:49:31,689 link benign integrated model is, 1200 00:49:31,689 --> 00:49:33,895 is showing us how that, you know, 1201 00:49:33,895 --> 00:49:35,949 why is it that a paradigm shift can 1202 00:49:35,949 --> 00:49:38,919 potentially be the most effective? 1203 00:49:38,919 --> 00:49:41,335 Because you know that, you know, again, 1204 00:49:41,335 --> 00:49:42,609 one individual changing 1205 00:49:42,609 --> 00:49:43,780 maybe isn't that big of a deal. 1206 00:49:43,780 --> 00:49:45,580 But if all of those individuals are changing, 1207 00:49:45,580 --> 00:49:46,929 that is clearly having 1208 00:49:46,929 --> 00:49:48,370 an organizational impact and 1209 00:49:48,370 --> 00:49:50,560 social attack working its 1210 00:49:50,560 --> 00:49:54,320 way back up the ladder. 1211 00:49:54,390 --> 00:49:57,039 I just want to point out, 1212 00:49:57,039 --> 00:49:58,180 we describe 1213 00:49:58,180 --> 00:49:59,950 these relationships and turns that 1214 00:49:59,950 --> 00:50:02,349 recursive constraints and affordances 1215 00:50:02,349 --> 00:50:04,120 and identity and viability. 1216 00:50:04,120 --> 00:50:06,309 So the differences between 1217 00:50:06,309 --> 00:50:07,689 a leverage point and afford 1218 00:50:07,689 --> 00:50:08,979 and an affordance is 1219 00:50:08,979 --> 00:50:11,469 that a leverage point can 1220 00:50:11,469 --> 00:50:14,755 exist independently of the, the actor, right? 1221 00:50:14,755 --> 00:50:16,270 Whereas an affordance is always 1222 00:50:16,270 --> 00:50:18,070 tied to, to an actor. 1223 00:50:18,070 --> 00:50:19,434 And so I don't, I don't, 1224 00:50:19,434 --> 00:50:22,209 I personally don't think in terms 1225 00:50:22,209 --> 00:50:24,699 of leverage points that 1226 00:50:24,699 --> 00:50:25,989 are out there in the world, 1227 00:50:25,989 --> 00:50:28,000 somehow divorce from, from 1228 00:50:28,000 --> 00:50:30,549 the actors who may meeting date with that. 1229 00:50:30,549 --> 00:50:32,005 And so, and so that's, 1230 00:50:32,005 --> 00:50:32,709 that's why we use 1231 00:50:32,709 --> 00:50:34,300 this language of affordances and 1232 00:50:34,300 --> 00:50:37,730 constraints rather than leverage points. 1233 00:50:37,920 --> 00:50:41,469 Well, it's, it's ten tensiometers is 1234 00:50:41,469 --> 00:50:44,469 not lonely when seminar and so less, Hey, 1235 00:50:44,469 --> 00:50:51,774 Howard for and the way 1236 00:50:51,774 --> 00:50:54,009 I'll keep talking but gives 1237 00:50:54,009 --> 00:50:55,344 us a chance to say that. 1238 00:50:55,344 --> 00:51:01,330 You want to go back to Joe come. 1239 00:51:01,330 --> 00:51:04,644 Yeah. Which is about again, 1240 00:51:04,644 --> 00:51:06,459 how people can see with 1241 00:51:06,459 --> 00:51:09,714 the one of the slides that I really like, 1242 00:51:09,714 --> 00:51:13,639 because that corresponds to 1243 00:51:17,010 --> 00:51:20,215 that hierarchy of identity. 1244 00:51:20,215 --> 00:51:24,369 And I think maybe 1245 00:51:24,369 --> 00:51:28,120 a lot of the climate change problem. 1246 00:51:28,120 --> 00:51:32,260 Problems boil down to 1247 00:51:32,260 --> 00:51:36,010 or could be thought of in terms of where, 1248 00:51:36,010 --> 00:51:38,575 what identities people have. 1249 00:51:38,575 --> 00:51:42,130 And the good guys, us, 1250 00:51:42,130 --> 00:51:44,770 of course, our identity 1251 00:51:44,770 --> 00:51:46,780 based at the entire spectrum. 1252 00:51:46,780 --> 00:51:48,909 The bad guys, they're stuck 1253 00:51:48,909 --> 00:51:52,270 in just the lowest level of identity. 1254 00:51:52,270 --> 00:51:55,150 So so the question then becomes, 1255 00:51:55,150 --> 00:51:56,800 how do you get them to stretch? 1256 00:51:56,800 --> 00:52:01,539 Uh-huh. Uh-huh. Yeah. Yeah. I'm so sorry. 1257 00:52:01,539 --> 00:52:03,010 I served with but this 1258 00:52:03,010 --> 00:52:06,114 takes what does the context, 1259 00:52:06,114 --> 00:52:07,479 the person they know it and most of 1260 00:52:07,479 --> 00:52:09,519 the person that woman or contracts, Right? 1261 00:52:09,519 --> 00:52:14,079 Right. So that is re 1262 00:52:14,079 --> 00:52:17,710 Eisen's reflexive second-order reflexivity 1263 00:52:17,710 --> 00:52:20,710 being able to see oneself in context. 1264 00:52:20,710 --> 00:52:24,610 Yeah. How does one do that? 1265 00:52:24,610 --> 00:52:27,685 Hedger? Epistemic BellKor's. 1266 00:52:27,685 --> 00:52:29,994 And so how, how do 1267 00:52:29,994 --> 00:52:33,145 individual agents adopt or 1268 00:52:33,145 --> 00:52:35,005 fail to adopt the UV? 1269 00:52:35,005 --> 00:52:37,930 And we're abroad, that will end. 1270 00:52:37,930 --> 00:52:40,299 So basically it comes down to 1271 00:52:40,299 --> 00:52:43,904 the idea that different beliefs, 1272 00:52:43,904 --> 00:52:46,734 different parish, 1273 00:52:46,734 --> 00:52:48,729 subtract the original type of 1274 00:52:48,729 --> 00:52:50,544 a shallow or deep beliefs. 1275 00:52:50,544 --> 00:52:54,390 And so shout like 1276 00:52:54,390 --> 00:52:55,769 a fact or a factoid or 1277 00:52:55,769 --> 00:52:58,110 some transient hand piece of information, 1278 00:52:58,110 --> 00:52:59,219 say, well, there's not 1279 00:52:59,219 --> 00:53:00,794 very much cost of leaving it. 1280 00:53:00,794 --> 00:53:02,249 You tell me that there's a seminar 1281 00:53:02,249 --> 00:53:04,110 every Friday and I'm like, well, okay. 1282 00:53:04,110 --> 00:53:05,939 However there is a, there is a, 1283 00:53:05,939 --> 00:53:07,349 it doesn't really matter either way. 1284 00:53:07,349 --> 00:53:08,910 We have very little paddle and accepting 1285 00:53:08,910 --> 00:53:12,494 that because it just doesn't mean very much. 1286 00:53:12,494 --> 00:53:14,909 But you know, as you get to the concepts that 1287 00:53:14,909 --> 00:53:17,460 are constructed from other concepts, 1288 00:53:17,460 --> 00:53:20,220 they become deeper and deeper and they are 1289 00:53:20,220 --> 00:53:21,390 more tied in tests 1290 00:53:21,390 --> 00:53:23,175 or everything else, you know. 1291 00:53:23,175 --> 00:53:24,629 And so then it becomes 1292 00:53:24,629 --> 00:53:26,220 difficult to challenge those beliefs 1293 00:53:26,220 --> 00:53:29,520 because challenged them means 1294 00:53:29,520 --> 00:53:31,079 rewriting so much of 1295 00:53:31,079 --> 00:53:33,405 all of everything, leave. 1296 00:53:33,405 --> 00:53:35,524 And so then it's just this question. 1297 00:53:35,524 --> 00:53:37,585 It basically says, 1298 00:53:37,585 --> 00:53:39,025 if you want to change somebody's mind, 1299 00:53:39,025 --> 00:53:40,059 there's no sharp happened 1300 00:53:40,059 --> 00:53:41,304 to spend a long time 1301 00:53:41,304 --> 00:53:44,350 and basically building up the components, 1302 00:53:44,350 --> 00:53:46,179 playing Western minds together into 1303 00:53:46,179 --> 00:53:48,459 larger structures and in 1304 00:53:48,459 --> 00:53:50,604 replacing their belief system Bureau. 1305 00:53:50,604 --> 00:53:51,669 And so there's no, there is 1306 00:53:51,669 --> 00:53:55,585 no shortcut, basically educating person. 1307 00:53:55,585 --> 00:53:56,740 And there's a lot of evidence 1308 00:53:56,740 --> 00:53:58,779 that even science 1309 00:53:58,779 --> 00:54:00,819 major new paradigms required 1310 00:54:00,819 --> 00:54:02,799 20 years to the acceptance 1311 00:54:02,799 --> 00:54:04,254 of ab to the old Garza. 1312 00:54:04,254 --> 00:54:10,060 Yeah. Yeah. Generational replacement problem 1313 00:54:10,060 --> 00:54:11,739 for which there isn't 1314 00:54:11,739 --> 00:54:15,819 the time to make this re-education possible. 1315 00:54:15,819 --> 00:54:19,480 We're happy. Older paradigm, DIA, Well, 1316 00:54:19,480 --> 00:54:21,264 one of the things that the 1317 00:54:21,264 --> 00:54:24,774 smartphone that you have any idea, 1318 00:54:24,774 --> 00:54:29,695 cuz so I system to be adopted, 1319 00:54:29,695 --> 00:54:33,219 those 0's 071st, many hobbies. 1320 00:54:33,219 --> 00:54:35,440 So by 200 and my, 1321 00:54:35,440 --> 00:54:37,419 before you have very many people doing it. 1322 00:54:37,419 --> 00:54:39,849 If you had a vector u at people, 1323 00:54:39,849 --> 00:54:43,599 I'm with big US based PDS. 1324 00:54:43,599 --> 00:54:45,519 Oh, not at mid seventies. 1325 00:54:45,519 --> 00:54:50,094 But I was working with video lab in 1326 00:54:50,094 --> 00:54:54,279 the nineties with pad computers 1327 00:54:54,279 --> 00:54:55,720 that when writers but it 1328 00:54:55,720 --> 00:54:56,709 wasn't the opponent was 1329 00:54:56,709 --> 00:54:57,670 in everybody's pocket. 1330 00:54:57,670 --> 00:55:00,190 Yeah, no, that was a breakthrough. 1331 00:55:00,190 --> 00:55:03,130 Actually. And we know at the university level 1332 00:55:03,130 --> 00:55:08,440 you need your IT 1333 00:55:08,440 --> 00:55:10,510 permitted. They don't want to do better. 1334 00:55:10,510 --> 00:55:10,930 Yeah. 1335 00:55:10,930 --> 00:55:11,559 I don't have 1336 00:55:11,559 --> 00:55:13,240 a different conception of myself and 1337 00:55:13,240 --> 00:55:14,590 my role in society is 1338 00:55:14,590 --> 00:55:17,164 that smartphones couldn't pill. 1339 00:55:17,164 --> 00:55:20,960 We'd get back to your question. 1340 00:55:21,000 --> 00:55:22,840 Was pointing back at you 1341 00:55:22,840 --> 00:55:23,725 and I'm going to point it out, but, 1342 00:55:23,725 --> 00:55:28,044 you know, I'm still curious. 1343 00:55:28,044 --> 00:55:30,219 As a designer, how 1344 00:55:30,219 --> 00:55:32,424 do you use this to solve a problem? 1345 00:55:32,424 --> 00:55:35,259 What is your, yeah, yeah. 1346 00:55:35,259 --> 00:55:39,670 So here's here's an example of that, right? 1347 00:55:39,670 --> 00:55:41,679 And so as a, as I mentioned, 1348 00:55:41,679 --> 00:55:45,805 we developed this definition of 1349 00:55:45,805 --> 00:55:50,710 social tractor could constellation of logics. 1350 00:55:50,710 --> 00:55:52,524 Let me, let me see if I've got, 1351 00:55:52,524 --> 00:55:55,269 probably got something more about this. 1352 00:55:55,269 --> 00:55:57,864 Okay, so here, here's this. 1353 00:55:57,864 --> 00:55:59,349 As a designer appears, 1354 00:55:59,349 --> 00:56:01,269 this design canvass aren't familiar with 1355 00:56:01,269 --> 00:56:03,835 the idea of a design canvass worksheet, 1356 00:56:03,835 --> 00:56:05,529 Business Model Canvas, right? 1357 00:56:05,529 --> 00:56:08,020 Right. And so basically this canvas 1358 00:56:08,020 --> 00:56:10,795 embeds this framework here, right? 1359 00:56:10,795 --> 00:56:12,234 Situation a domain on 1360 00:56:12,234 --> 00:56:13,659 the experience football system, 1361 00:56:13,659 --> 00:56:14,770 a set of situation of 1362 00:56:14,770 --> 00:56:17,290 relationships that serve or proceed, 1363 00:56:17,290 --> 00:56:18,760 but certainly the function or purpose 1364 00:56:18,760 --> 00:56:21,280 regime and instance of the focal system, 1365 00:56:21,280 --> 00:56:23,529 particular way of delivering one of 1366 00:56:23,529 --> 00:56:26,620 its purpose and the logics, urgings, culture, 1367 00:56:26,620 --> 00:56:27,730 cultural institution, 1368 00:56:27,730 --> 00:56:28,900 material characteristic, 1369 00:56:28,900 --> 00:56:30,279 the fat factors that 1370 00:56:30,279 --> 00:56:32,829 perpetuate a regime by attracting and 1371 00:56:32,829 --> 00:56:34,509 stabilizing individual 1372 00:56:34,509 --> 00:56:36,490 and organizational participation, 1373 00:56:36,490 --> 00:56:36,939 right? 1374 00:56:36,939 --> 00:56:41,829 And so It's important to note that the 1375 00:56:41,829 --> 00:56:44,110 walk in the way these logics 1376 00:56:44,110 --> 00:56:46,945 are described there not reified, alright? 1377 00:56:46,945 --> 00:56:48,400 The causal efficacy of 1378 00:56:48,400 --> 00:56:49,974 each of the objects depends 1379 00:56:49,974 --> 00:56:54,109 on individual and organizational affiliation. 1380 00:56:54,480 --> 00:56:57,520 So the language embeds 1381 00:56:57,520 --> 00:56:59,754 the kind of path dependent or inertia. 1382 00:56:59,754 --> 00:57:04,435 And so this is kind of another, 1383 00:57:04,435 --> 00:57:06,549 this is, this comes from this list. 1384 00:57:06,549 --> 00:57:08,784 Other paper that I didn't talk about today, 1385 00:57:08,784 --> 00:57:10,495 which was design, 1386 00:57:10,495 --> 00:57:14,449 design context with crystal growth. 1387 00:57:16,020 --> 00:57:20,125 And it's so simple to simplify 1388 00:57:20,125 --> 00:57:21,999 analytical tool for talking 1389 00:57:21,999 --> 00:57:26,304 about systemic, systemic change, right? 1390 00:57:26,304 --> 00:57:30,429 In, in developing this idea of a logics, 1391 00:57:30,429 --> 00:57:31,929 what basically what we 1392 00:57:31,929 --> 00:57:33,820 wanted to do was to get beyond, 1393 00:57:33,820 --> 00:57:36,024 to get beyond just structure, 1394 00:57:36,024 --> 00:57:37,359 this word structure, right? 1395 00:57:37,359 --> 00:57:39,234 And so we've got Donald, 1396 00:57:39,234 --> 00:57:41,799 Donald churn accepted early seventies, 1397 00:57:41,799 --> 00:57:43,794 talk to you about social systems in terms of 1398 00:57:43,794 --> 00:57:45,519 structure actually beforehand that 1399 00:57:45,519 --> 00:57:47,095 he didn't exactly tell. 1400 00:57:47,095 --> 00:57:50,380 Hum and many others, Margaret Archer. 1401 00:57:50,380 --> 00:57:52,135 And so I've been looking for 1402 00:57:52,135 --> 00:57:54,355 what does the typology of, 1403 00:57:54,355 --> 00:57:56,439 of ways in which people 1404 00:57:56,439 --> 00:57:58,780 have characterized social, social structure. 1405 00:57:58,780 --> 00:57:59,890 And here are a few 1406 00:57:59,890 --> 00:58:01,629 that have been interesting to 1407 00:58:01,629 --> 00:58:03,880 me who take the word projects 1408 00:58:03,880 --> 00:58:06,805 from this one by pitcher, Patricia Thornton, 1409 00:58:06,805 --> 00:58:10,344 institutional objects, Nicholas movement, 1410 00:58:10,344 --> 00:58:12,369 Bruno Latour also also have, 1411 00:58:12,369 --> 00:58:14,665 have ways of, of kind of 1412 00:58:14,665 --> 00:58:16,569 analyzing dissecting 1413 00:58:16,569 --> 00:58:18,175 structure, social structure. 1414 00:58:18,175 --> 00:58:20,574 And so the idea being that 1415 00:58:20,574 --> 00:58:23,485 if these are the variables that attract, 1416 00:58:23,485 --> 00:58:24,595 attract, 1417 00:58:24,595 --> 00:58:26,964 individual organizational participation, 1418 00:58:26,964 --> 00:58:28,389 then we can define 1419 00:58:28,389 --> 00:58:31,339 a regime shift by defining a shift. 1420 00:58:35,850 --> 00:58:44,424 Okay? So a simple, too, overly simplified. 1421 00:58:44,424 --> 00:58:45,974 But anyway, that's 1422 00:58:45,974 --> 00:58:47,564 just like that I've been using. 1423 00:58:47,564 --> 00:58:51,909 So we take this to do yes. 1424 00:58:51,909 --> 00:58:54,355 Working. Yes. Just all problems with that. 1425 00:58:54,355 --> 00:58:58,030 And this is a tool to organize this is 1426 00:58:58,030 --> 00:58:59,800 a tool to organize a workshop 1427 00:58:59,800 --> 00:59:03,140 around systemic social change. 1428 00:59:03,570 --> 00:59:06,190 We're trying to get to the point 1429 00:59:06,190 --> 00:59:08,230 where they don't need to know anything. 1430 00:59:08,230 --> 00:59:11,239 Personally snare your or 1431 00:59:11,880 --> 00:59:17,150 be no models and fragrance on its face. 1432 00:59:20,370 --> 00:59:22,734 I think you know that I teach 1433 00:59:22,734 --> 00:59:24,399 of course occasionally 1434 00:59:24,399 --> 00:59:27,819 on system sustainability 1435 00:59:27,819 --> 00:59:29,754 and organizational resilience. 1436 00:59:29,754 --> 00:59:31,360 Everything you said here, 1437 00:59:31,360 --> 00:59:33,220 and these are all things that I want 1438 00:59:33,220 --> 00:59:35,590 to introduce my students do. 1439 00:59:35,590 --> 00:59:37,045 So thank you for 1440 00:59:37,045 --> 00:59:40,150 providing kind of new thinking. 1441 00:59:40,150 --> 00:59:42,384 And I think the pragmatic side, 1442 00:59:42,384 --> 00:59:44,890 it's really important to think 1443 00:59:44,890 --> 00:59:48,235 and dream it three, to get action. 1444 00:59:48,235 --> 00:59:51,219 So I appreciate you want it by thinking about 1445 00:59:51,219 --> 00:59:52,570 how to take us out into 1446 00:59:52,570 --> 00:59:54,804 action in the past that okay. 1447 00:59:54,804 --> 00:59:57,235 It's downloadable at that 1448 00:59:57,235 --> 00:59:59,229 at that website that they're regime shifts. 1449 00:59:59,229 --> 01:00:01,315 Cua canvas not work. 1450 01:00:01,315 --> 01:00:04,870 So I am going to wrap up the recording. 1451 01:00:04,870 --> 01:00:08,349 Now we actually have that gives room for yup, 1452 01:00:08,349 --> 01:00:09,909 pretty soon we had a little bit of time what 1453 01:00:09,909 --> 01:00:10,269 we're going to have 1454 01:00:10,269 --> 01:00:11,470 a normal copy sound source 1455 01:00:11,470 --> 01:00:12,910 that you're not hanging out 1456 01:00:12,910 --> 01:00:15,709 quite as long as we sometimes do.