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Just another second
and I go grab

2
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my sheet of paper
on my office

3
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that I work in

4
00:00:14,219 --> 00:00:16,979
IT to hear PSU
undergraduate students

5
00:00:16,979 --> 00:00:18,315
in business school?

6
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Yeah. Technically. Really?

7
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Uh-huh. Yeah. Yeah.

8
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To start

9
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percentage by me.

10
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Okay. So I'm finding right

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now just perhaps I'm
on to England in

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the either let me know if

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I got this thing through.

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Move it a little closer.

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Didn't speaker
while most your,

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your voice is the
most important one,

17
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it will be bigger.

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Vestibular through great.

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Yeah. I'm asking people.

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You can hear all right.

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Javelin, it just
let me know.

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Down in the bottom
of the sea,

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but yet premier yoga,

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all right, somebody, I

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feel good about
that, that stream.

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So Let's go ahead

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and start. Rays
are welcomed me.

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This isn't science
seminar series.

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Drill that. Alright, so

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we're going to hear
climate absolutely.

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Cursive identity
and purposeful

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changed as a title
make you think.

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And I'll try to

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demonstrate some
thinking out loud here.

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What shall I just say?

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00:02:25,175 --> 00:02:28,320
Say continue aircraft.
And thank you.

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So I've organized this
talk into three parts.

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Should take about less

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than, less than 30 minutes.

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So there will be
plenty of time

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for questions and
conversation at the end,

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please do hold
questions and

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comments to the end

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of service and
the introduction.

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And then I'll describe

46
00:02:47,104 --> 00:02:48,889
and methods and
then I'll apply

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these methods in a
cybernetic contexts and

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then an inner resilience

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transformation contacts.

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So I wanted to start out

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with an appreciation.

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I am, I'm a huge fan
of the program here.

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What are the
amazing resource?

54
00:03:04,549 --> 00:03:07,744
This is that this long,

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long-lasting
says confines or

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gram is going
on in Portland.

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You know, a couple of
examples that I pulled

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out to illustrate

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the longevity of
this program.

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A couple of
audio recordings

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from the PSU
libraries that,

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that are from the
mid 19 seventies.

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One of C west churchmen

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and want to tines going

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first or and you know,

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when I first started
studying and teaching,

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when I first
started teaching

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systems in about 2012,

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I started that Pacific

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Northwest College
of Art in 2011.

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And I was going to
my first I took

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less than AFC
curve conferences,

73
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that's international
side and Sciences,

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American Society
for cybernetics.

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Wait, wait, invited me to

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give my presentation here.

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As I was on my way from
those conferences in

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California and
appreciative and,

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you know, some of
that stuff that I

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presented at that time
is still with me.

81
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It's a case study in

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my ecology and
society paper

83
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that I'll be talking about.

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And I also wanted

85
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to started in
addition to this,

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the printed Oh, yeah.

87
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I can't make it stop.

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If somebody playing
the audio that

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goes into your volume
or I have a URL down,

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I have a fan,
kill it again,

91
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that should make it stopped

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and the speaker
are still going.

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I have the boys down.

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And you say, well,

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I have the microphone
is needed.

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If I don't see a
naive that someone

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else, it's not really.

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I just, I think other
people are going to do

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is I told it to
switch to a headset.

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00:05:03,920 --> 00:05:05,390
I forget went quiet.

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So thank you for
suggesting that can

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have these sharp
and super ie.

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So I wanted to
start with this

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and appreciation,

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this note of
appreciation in

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an appreciative
contacts and

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also because
this is a talk,

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a balance identity, right?

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Oh my b, u, where u to me,

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who are we to each other?

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That's sometimes
called the read

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all of the states.

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What is the context that
person may know it?

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What does the person
that one might know

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a context after another

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version of this riddle?

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And just to illustrate

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this recursive identity

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that I'm talking about.

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Further, I'm going to
perform this model.

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I call it a
performative model.

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We'll get to that in

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my definition of a
model and a few slides.

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And this performative
model is very simple.

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It's a simple fill in
the blank exit flies.

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And as so what I'm going
to do is I'm going

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to form this little
fill in the blank here.

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And as I'm performing it,

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I'm going to be
thinking about

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these three questions.

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Sometimes thinking
about them,

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sometimes talking
about now.

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Because as, as one
performs this model,

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one can't help but go

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to these types of
questions, I think.

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And so suddenly we go.

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I am a seeker in

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the And seminar
series for 2019.

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I am a I

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am a Sibley in a set of
family relationships.

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I I'm a south in a in

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a family familial
relationship,

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different
boundaries, right?

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For those two statements.

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I am a teacher in

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a design program
in art school,

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which I'm very
enthusiastic about inside

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an educational
system that I'm

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sometimes less
enthusiastic about.

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I am a consumer

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of fossil fuels in

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a world this time from
their consumption.

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I am a white
person in a LAN,

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colonized by white people.

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And I feel like

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it's hard to say those

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things that I just said.

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Those are not just words.

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Right? And so this model

160
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that I-V curve of
recursive identity

161
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that performed is
embedded. I think.

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That should be
clear, right?

163
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It's intersectional.
I'm not exciting.

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Kimberly Crenshaw
here, I'm citing

165
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Francisco Varela
in that this sense

166
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of identity as
embedded in context.

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There are multiple forms of

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it right now when I did

169
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remarkable and
gets affiliated,

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entangled, path-dependent.

171
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Write. Stuff that may

172
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have happened a
long time ago,

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still hard to,
hard to let go of.

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If, if, if one is entangled

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in black and white,

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blocks are color weird.

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Okay? So just do a
little more background.

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So I kind of, my background

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is not out of academia,

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it's from out of NGO

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00:09:01,239 --> 00:09:04,765
proactive isn't
phrase correct.

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Isn't comes from my friend,

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00:09:06,309 --> 00:09:08,904
the artist, Harry Weissman.

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And I worked for many years

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with EPA trust
here in town.

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00:09:12,909 --> 00:09:16,330
And so when we were
we were working

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on to affect systemic
change in food systems,

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fisheries systems,

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00:09:22,600 --> 00:09:27,430
energy systems,
tree-building, forestry, etc.

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All these, all these a

191
00:09:29,749 --> 00:09:32,705
systems out in
the world, right?

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And I was doing this work.

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I started to see this
conceptual approach

194
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and to understand this
conceptual approach

195
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to what we're doing.

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Or everyone
familiar with this,

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with this landscape model.

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Yeah. And so with

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the sense that
the systems that

200
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we're engaged with
could be defined

201
00:09:53,090 --> 00:09:55,714
and described in terms
of identity, right?

202
00:09:55,714 --> 00:09:57,109
Familiar quote here I think

203
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from Brian Walker
and David Salt.

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Regime is a set
of states that

205
00:10:01,580 --> 00:10:02,720
a system can exist in

206
00:10:02,720 --> 00:10:04,009
and still behave
in the same way,

207
00:10:04,009 --> 00:10:05,630
still have the
same identity,

208
00:10:05,630 --> 00:10:08,089
basic structure and
function, right?

209
00:10:08,089 --> 00:10:09,320
And then perhaps less

210
00:10:09,320 --> 00:10:11,014
familiar Bella band iffy.

211
00:10:11,014 --> 00:10:13,130
Many, many systems
theorists use,

212
00:10:13,130 --> 00:10:15,049
use this concept
of identity to

213
00:10:15,049 --> 00:10:17,824
talk about systems
in the world.

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00:10:17,824 --> 00:10:19,460
Bella band fi rights.

215
00:10:19,460 --> 00:10:21,409
When does a system
retains its identity,

216
00:10:21,409 --> 00:10:23,690
continuity through
change, and when does

217
00:10:23,690 --> 00:10:26,089
it itself vanish or
become something?

218
00:10:26,089 --> 00:10:27,589
Do these questions are

219
00:10:27,589 --> 00:10:29,479
great practical concern in

220
00:10:29,479 --> 00:10:32,029
contexts such systems
designed, right?

221
00:10:32,029 --> 00:10:34,129
And as I started
to so different,

222
00:10:34,129 --> 00:10:35,929
this was the
conceptual tool

223
00:10:35,929 --> 00:10:38,104
that really caught
my attention, right?

224
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And that us as either,

225
00:10:39,545 --> 00:10:41,839
as I studied further,
I started to say, oh,

226
00:10:41,839 --> 00:10:43,204
there's also
this link we're

227
00:10:43,204 --> 00:10:45,049
talking about when I talked

228
00:10:45,049 --> 00:10:47,119
about wanting to change

229
00:10:47,119 --> 00:10:48,229
the food system or change

230
00:10:48,229 --> 00:10:49,399
the energy system or,

231
00:10:49,399 --> 00:10:52,430
or affect change in
fisheries management.

232
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I'm talking about
first-order systems, right?

233
00:10:54,859 --> 00:10:57,185
These are observed systems

234
00:10:57,185 --> 00:10:58,924
or systems on world.

235
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This is kinsmen
bursters description

236
00:11:02,795 --> 00:11:04,579
of this duality, right?

237
00:11:04,579 --> 00:11:06,229
First and second-order,
what do you call

238
00:11:06,229 --> 00:11:07,775
the Cybernetics
folks called

239
00:11:07,775 --> 00:11:09,950
first second woman
who absolutely right.

240
00:11:09,950 --> 00:11:11,659
I'm first-order systems,

241
00:11:11,659 --> 00:11:12,800
our world food system,

242
00:11:12,800 --> 00:11:13,859
the energy system, the

243
00:11:13,859 --> 00:11:15,919
fisheries nine
systems, right?

244
00:11:15,919 --> 00:11:17,269
Second-order thing.

245
00:11:17,269 --> 00:11:19,745
Myself as I, as I

246
00:11:19,745 --> 00:11:21,545
distinguish and atmospheric

247
00:11:21,545 --> 00:11:24,635
these these systems
in the world.

248
00:11:24,635 --> 00:11:30,260
And so then I moved
on around 20112012,

249
00:11:30,260 --> 00:11:32,060
and I shifted
from doing N-G

250
00:11:32,060 --> 00:11:34,560
or NGO or to teaching.

251
00:11:34,560 --> 00:11:36,549
And I've been teaching at

252
00:11:36,549 --> 00:11:37,750
Pacific Northwest
College of

253
00:11:37,750 --> 00:11:41,695
Art and Design Program
in an art school,

254
00:11:41,695 --> 00:11:43,539
saying ITP at NYU

255
00:11:43,539 --> 00:11:46,420
also in a design program
in an art school,

256
00:11:46,420 --> 00:11:49,029
and doing some writing.

257
00:11:49,029 --> 00:11:51,100
And there's, there are
a few things that keep

258
00:11:51,100 --> 00:11:52,120
popping up in my

259
00:11:52,120 --> 00:11:53,440
writings and I
keep kinda build,

260
00:11:53,440 --> 00:11:54,579
building on what I've,

261
00:11:54,579 --> 00:11:55,899
what I've written things or

262
00:11:55,899 --> 00:11:57,954
design an action research,

263
00:11:57,954 --> 00:11:59,635
systems, literacy,

264
00:11:59,635 --> 00:12:02,679
analogy, distinction,
social system identity.

265
00:12:02,679 --> 00:12:03,879
And I'm going to
be talking about

266
00:12:03,879 --> 00:12:06,289
these two papers here.

267
00:12:09,420 --> 00:12:12,129
So here's the methodology,

268
00:12:12,129 --> 00:12:13,554
methodological sequence.

269
00:12:13,554 --> 00:12:16,904
It comes from
design and design.

270
00:12:16,904 --> 00:12:18,650
I say design, I don't mean

271
00:12:18,650 --> 00:12:20,689
graphic design or
industrial design.

272
00:12:20,689 --> 00:12:21,919
I mean design as

273
00:12:21,919 --> 00:12:25,324
an anticipatory and
purposeful activity.

274
00:12:25,324 --> 00:12:27,289
Plenty more to talk about

275
00:12:27,289 --> 00:12:30,109
their secrets.
It's very simple.

276
00:12:30,109 --> 00:12:31,594
Design is something we do.

277
00:12:31,594 --> 00:12:32,959
We do all the time and

278
00:12:32,959 --> 00:12:36,365
the methodological
sequence is very simple.

279
00:12:36,365 --> 00:12:38,735
Frame an area of inquiry

280
00:12:38,735 --> 00:12:40,820
appreciatively survey

281
00:12:40,820 --> 00:12:42,844
existing approaches
to this inquiry

282
00:12:42,844 --> 00:12:44,749
with an emphasis on models,

283
00:12:44,749 --> 00:12:47,659
develop bricolage fragment,

284
00:12:47,659 --> 00:12:50,435
analogize a
variant approach,

285
00:12:50,435 --> 00:12:52,759
and then examine
analogies and

286
00:12:52,759 --> 00:12:55,439
distinctions across
their parties.

287
00:12:56,770 --> 00:12:59,509
Definition of a model
that I'm using is

288
00:12:59,509 --> 00:13:01,069
a representation
and abstraction

289
00:13:01,069 --> 00:13:02,449
of how things work,

290
00:13:02,449 --> 00:13:04,099
including pork performative

291
00:13:04,099 --> 00:13:05,510
narrative and
visual models.

292
00:13:05,510 --> 00:13:07,579
In this sense, mock model

293
00:13:07,579 --> 00:13:10,115
was not necessarily
quantitative.

294
00:13:10,115 --> 00:13:13,025
It's a tool for

295
00:13:13,025 --> 00:13:16,234
investigating how,
How Things Work.

296
00:13:16,234 --> 00:13:19,190
Note that there's no
Praesidium hypotheses in

297
00:13:19,190 --> 00:13:22,399
this in this methodological
sequence, right?

298
00:13:22,399 --> 00:13:24,439
This is about getting
outside the box,

299
00:13:24,439 --> 00:13:27,620
about trying to be more,

300
00:13:27,620 --> 00:13:30,469
it's like a conceptual
exaptation, right?

301
00:13:30,469 --> 00:13:31,639
Pick the brick
wall and take

302
00:13:31,639 --> 00:13:32,809
the stuff that's out there,

303
00:13:32,809 --> 00:13:33,919
trying to fragment it,

304
00:13:33,919 --> 00:13:37,080
analogize it, to
create something.

305
00:13:38,890 --> 00:13:41,660
There are many,
many examples of

306
00:13:41,660 --> 00:13:43,580
how we do this in
our lives, right?

307
00:13:43,580 --> 00:13:44,689
So picture that I'm back at

308
00:13:44,689 --> 00:13:45,830
and doing NGO work.

309
00:13:45,830 --> 00:13:48,454
I'm I'm working on
an annual report.

310
00:13:48,454 --> 00:13:52,459
I what do we do when
we're working on this?

311
00:13:52,459 --> 00:13:53,450
And we're probably look at

312
00:13:53,450 --> 00:13:54,634
what we did last year.

313
00:13:54,634 --> 00:13:56,030
Alright, we looked
at other annual

314
00:13:56,030 --> 00:13:57,410
reports that are
out there, right?

315
00:13:57,410 --> 00:13:59,869
This is an appreciative
served look

316
00:13:59,869 --> 00:14:01,205
at where we looked
at bad ones

317
00:14:01,205 --> 00:14:02,390
that wouldn't help
us very much.

318
00:14:02,390 --> 00:14:04,025
But maybe you could

319
00:14:04,025 --> 00:14:05,390
serve as a counter example,

320
00:14:05,390 --> 00:14:07,130
but it needs to be
appreciative, right?

321
00:14:07,130 --> 00:14:09,259
And then we look and
we just and we're not

322
00:14:09,259 --> 00:14:10,669
trying to create
a synthesis

323
00:14:10,669 --> 00:14:11,689
of all these reports.

324
00:14:11,689 --> 00:14:14,420
We're trying to, to
create something well,

325
00:14:14,420 --> 00:14:16,009
another instance
that's something

326
00:14:16,009 --> 00:14:17,089
that we'd like that

327
00:14:17,089 --> 00:14:18,109
could serve as a as a

328
00:14:18,109 --> 00:14:19,940
good annual report, right.

329
00:14:19,940 --> 00:14:21,710
So this is this
is an example

330
00:14:21,710 --> 00:14:24,470
of I don't want to sort
of step up a level.

331
00:14:24,470 --> 00:14:25,909
This is an example
of what I,

332
00:14:25,909 --> 00:14:26,510
what I think of

333
00:14:26,510 --> 00:14:28,954
as analogical
reasoning, right?

334
00:14:28,954 --> 00:14:31,054
What are we trying to
create a synthesis?

335
00:14:31,054 --> 00:14:33,500
Alright, maybe
Joe categories

336
00:14:33,500 --> 00:14:35,060
then do get outside
of the box.

337
00:14:35,060 --> 00:14:35,839
Maybe as we're doing

338
00:14:35,839 --> 00:14:37,654
this project, someone says,

339
00:14:37,654 --> 00:14:39,500
oh, what if our
annual report

340
00:14:39,500 --> 00:14:41,840
look more like a postcard?

341
00:14:41,840 --> 00:14:45,589
Uh-huh. Okay. So now by by

342
00:14:45,589 --> 00:14:47,540
by examining

343
00:14:47,540 --> 00:14:50,315
instances that have
shifted categories,

344
00:14:50,315 --> 00:14:52,009
now we're outside
the box that what

345
00:14:52,009 --> 00:14:54,065
this annual report
could be, right?

346
00:14:54,065 --> 00:14:56,360
Shape change that
Douglas Hofstadter here

347
00:14:56,360 --> 00:14:59,374
and kind of emphasis on
analogical reasoning.

348
00:14:59,374 --> 00:15:02,435
I also Shades of
Robert Rosen, right?

349
00:15:02,435 --> 00:15:05,750
So his quote from is 79,

350
00:15:05,750 --> 00:15:07,879
been burnt MOLAP
the lecture.

351
00:15:07,879 --> 00:15:09,980
The essential
characteristic of

352
00:15:09,980 --> 00:15:11,510
systems theory is that

353
00:15:11,510 --> 00:15:13,039
there's a sense in
which we can learn

354
00:15:13,039 --> 00:15:15,050
about S by
studying S prime.

355
00:15:15,050 --> 00:15:17,180
That is, physically
disparate systems

356
00:15:17,180 --> 00:15:18,769
can nevertheless be mop,

357
00:15:18,769 --> 00:15:20,299
whoops, the models are

358
00:15:20,299 --> 00:15:22,710
analogues of each other.

359
00:15:23,350 --> 00:15:26,839
He's thinking of
isomorphic isomorphisms,

360
00:15:26,839 --> 00:15:27,409
right?

361
00:15:27,409 --> 00:15:29,510
Looking, looking at
biological systems to

362
00:15:29,510 --> 00:15:31,670
learn about social
systems, right?

363
00:15:31,670 --> 00:15:32,810
And so I'm doing

364
00:15:32,810 --> 00:15:34,910
something similar in
a design pattern.

365
00:15:34,910 --> 00:15:37,309
Okay, so that's,
that's basically

366
00:15:37,309 --> 00:15:40,625
the introduction
and the methods.

367
00:15:40,625 --> 00:15:41,840
And so I'm going to apply

368
00:15:41,840 --> 00:15:44,074
this insight into compacts.

369
00:15:44,074 --> 00:15:45,200
And these two are pretty,

370
00:15:45,200 --> 00:15:46,219
pretty different, right?

371
00:15:46,219 --> 00:15:46,700
If you read

372
00:15:46,700 --> 00:15:48,290
the Cybernetics
literature and read

373
00:15:48,290 --> 00:15:49,684
the resilience literature

374
00:15:49,684 --> 00:15:51,590
about systems traditions.

375
00:15:51,590 --> 00:15:53,390
They've got their
own, their own ways

376
00:15:53,390 --> 00:15:55,955
of working in the
world, right?

377
00:15:55,955 --> 00:15:58,610
And so what am
I going to do

378
00:15:58,610 --> 00:16:00,829
is go through this
methodological sequence,

379
00:16:00,829 --> 00:16:02,180
your times one and

380
00:16:02,180 --> 00:16:03,589
a cybernetic contexts than

381
00:16:03,589 --> 00:16:05,000
one and the
resilience context,

382
00:16:05,000 --> 00:16:08,010
as I said, it's
pretty simple.

383
00:16:08,200 --> 00:16:12,274
And while it is simple,

384
00:16:12,274 --> 00:16:14,869
I'm going to use
it to engage with

385
00:16:14,869 --> 00:16:18,184
the core concepts in
the system tradition.

386
00:16:18,184 --> 00:16:19,399
Not something
off on the side

387
00:16:19,399 --> 00:16:20,615
but the core concepts.

388
00:16:20,615 --> 00:16:23,034
And so this is one of
the core concepts in,

389
00:16:23,034 --> 00:16:24,650
when people talk
about cybernetics.

390
00:16:24,650 --> 00:16:26,704
This, this person
second-order

391
00:16:26,704 --> 00:16:28,970
that I've already
introduced, right?

392
00:16:28,970 --> 00:16:32,540
And so and so we've got
Van First are there.

393
00:16:32,540 --> 00:16:34,879
And so this is my,

394
00:16:34,879 --> 00:16:37,205
my survey and develop
a variant, right?

395
00:16:37,205 --> 00:16:38,750
So his definition of

396
00:16:38,750 --> 00:16:40,760
first-order and
second-order cybernetics,

397
00:16:40,760 --> 00:16:41,119
right?

398
00:16:41,119 --> 00:16:42,680
First-order cybernetics

399
00:16:42,680 --> 00:16:44,975
observed systems as I,

400
00:16:44,975 --> 00:16:46,609
as I describe, right?

401
00:16:46,609 --> 00:16:48,559
And that universe
cybernetics

402
00:16:48,559 --> 00:16:51,095
observing systems
myself, right?

403
00:16:51,095 --> 00:16:53,344
And my first-order
and second-order,

404
00:16:53,344 --> 00:16:55,895
the identity of the
system in question.

405
00:16:55,895 --> 00:16:58,069
As I performed right?

406
00:16:58,069 --> 00:17:00,739
Efforts, the performative
model, right?

407
00:17:00,739 --> 00:17:03,019
The, the systems
in the world,

408
00:17:03,019 --> 00:17:05,689
the energy system,
the family system,

409
00:17:05,689 --> 00:17:07,130
whenever, the food system,

410
00:17:07,130 --> 00:17:10,009
whatever it be, maybe
the second one being

411
00:17:10,009 --> 00:17:11,599
recursive affiliations

412
00:17:11,599 --> 00:17:13,279
between one's own identity

413
00:17:13,279 --> 00:17:15,960
and that of the
system in question.

414
00:17:16,660 --> 00:17:19,340
Okay, so then, so
there's my variant.

415
00:17:19,340 --> 00:17:20,899
Now what I'm gonna
do is examine

416
00:17:20,899 --> 00:17:22,445
analogies and distinctions.

417
00:17:22,445 --> 00:17:23,930
But what does, what does

418
00:17:23,930 --> 00:17:26,479
Heinz von foresters
in Haifa and

419
00:17:26,479 --> 00:17:28,459
fosters approach
what is ascribed to

420
00:17:28,459 --> 00:17:31,220
the external system
distinction, right?

421
00:17:31,220 --> 00:17:33,920
I have distinguished as,

422
00:17:33,920 --> 00:17:35,749
as the system I have
constructed it,

423
00:17:35,749 --> 00:17:37,594
you, you might say.

424
00:17:37,594 --> 00:17:39,740
Other than that
I'm not describing

425
00:17:39,740 --> 00:17:40,760
anything to it other

426
00:17:40,760 --> 00:17:42,544
than I've distinguished it.

427
00:17:42,544 --> 00:17:44,390
In this approach here.

428
00:17:44,390 --> 00:17:47,495
Yeah, that yes,
plus identity,

429
00:17:47,495 --> 00:17:49,835
what is described to
oneself as a system

430
00:17:49,835 --> 00:17:52,250
observing yes
plus identity.

431
00:17:52,250 --> 00:17:53,900
What makes the
two explicitly

432
00:17:53,900 --> 00:17:55,910
or implicitly construction?

433
00:17:55,910 --> 00:17:57,620
And in this case,

434
00:17:57,620 --> 00:17:58,850
recursive affiliation

435
00:17:58,850 --> 00:18:00,815
entanglement, embeddedness.

436
00:18:00,815 --> 00:18:02,885
Does this linkage thereby

437
00:18:02,885 --> 00:18:05,225
linked individual
and social change?

438
00:18:05,225 --> 00:18:07,919
Now, yes.

439
00:18:09,880 --> 00:18:12,755
We're going to go through
this one more time.

440
00:18:12,755 --> 00:18:15,829
Because I think definitions
are, are limited.

441
00:18:15,829 --> 00:18:17,690
And I think models are

442
00:18:17,690 --> 00:18:19,774
more powerful
than definitions.

443
00:18:19,774 --> 00:18:20,780
And so I'm going
to go through

444
00:18:20,780 --> 00:18:22,010
this one more time

445
00:18:22,010 --> 00:18:24,769
in inner cybernetics
context.

446
00:18:24,769 --> 00:18:26,480
And this time instead of

447
00:18:26,480 --> 00:18:28,789
using 1 first definition,

448
00:18:28,789 --> 00:18:29,959
what I'm gonna do is use

449
00:18:29,959 --> 00:18:32,300
the frequently
reference model

450
00:18:32,300 --> 00:18:34,729
for talking about
first, second order.

451
00:18:34,729 --> 00:18:37,040
And so people familiar
with this one

452
00:18:37,040 --> 00:18:39,725
from Margaret Mead
and Gregory Bateson?

453
00:18:39,725 --> 00:18:43,589
No. Yeah. Well that

454
00:18:44,080 --> 00:18:49,909
so this Margaret Mead
and Gregory Bateson in

455
00:18:49,909 --> 00:18:52,490
the mid-seventies Jude
this model to describe

456
00:18:52,490 --> 00:18:53,870
the distinction
between first,

457
00:18:53,870 --> 00:18:55,700
second mode, right?

458
00:18:55,700 --> 00:18:57,620
Right, the first-order.

459
00:18:57,620 --> 00:18:59,450
There's a feedback,

460
00:18:59,450 --> 00:19:01,280
a feedback running
through the system,

461
00:19:01,280 --> 00:19:02,675
but the engineer
is standing

462
00:19:02,675 --> 00:19:03,860
outside the system, right?

463
00:19:03,860 --> 00:19:05,255
This is the black box

464
00:19:05,255 --> 00:19:07,475
is the first-order
blackbox, right?

465
00:19:07,475 --> 00:19:08,689
I've got my system there.

466
00:19:08,689 --> 00:19:10,039
I'm watching what's
happening to it,

467
00:19:10,039 --> 00:19:11,954
but I'm not I'm not
entangled with it

468
00:19:11,954 --> 00:19:14,539
and not not hard it right?

469
00:19:14,539 --> 00:19:16,145
And then a second-order,

470
00:19:16,145 --> 00:19:18,919
they PUT Norbert
Wiener themselves

471
00:19:18,919 --> 00:19:21,739
and themselves
inside a second,

472
00:19:21,739 --> 00:19:26,180
second boundary
there, right?

473
00:19:26,180 --> 00:19:27,379
To, to show that they are

474
00:19:27,379 --> 00:19:29,314
also not outside it.

475
00:19:29,314 --> 00:19:31,894
There, there, there
part of it, right?

476
00:19:31,894 --> 00:19:33,650
It's interesting
that I think

477
00:19:33,650 --> 00:19:35,630
that they ascribe this

478
00:19:35,630 --> 00:19:36,754
to the to the end of

479
00:19:36,754 --> 00:19:39,469
this first order to
the to the engineer.

480
00:19:39,469 --> 00:19:41,119
And to be sure, we

481
00:19:41,119 --> 00:19:42,620
can picture the
engineers standing

482
00:19:42,620 --> 00:19:46,444
out outside of the
upside black boxing,

483
00:19:46,444 --> 00:19:49,295
the creation of the
system there, right?

484
00:19:49,295 --> 00:19:51,034
I'm building a
bridge, right?

485
00:19:51,034 --> 00:19:54,274
It's just a bridge
or a device, right?

486
00:19:54,274 --> 00:19:56,990
You know, at the
same time, I would,

487
00:19:56,990 --> 00:19:58,280
I would point out

488
00:19:58,280 --> 00:19:59,870
that this is the
same challenge

489
00:19:59,870 --> 00:20:01,129
that they were facing

490
00:20:01,129 --> 00:20:02,779
as anthropologists, right?

491
00:20:02,779 --> 00:20:04,699
When they go to
Papua New Guinea,

492
00:20:04,699 --> 00:20:06,109
or when they go to Bali or

493
00:20:06,109 --> 00:20:07,594
when she goes to Samoa,

494
00:20:07,594 --> 00:20:09,529
am I going to blackbox that

495
00:20:09,529 --> 00:20:11,629
that system there
that I'm studying?

496
00:20:11,629 --> 00:20:13,489
Or am I going to recognize

497
00:20:13,489 --> 00:20:15,499
that my presence in
Papua New Guinea,

498
00:20:15,499 --> 00:20:17,524
in Bali, in Samoa is,

499
00:20:17,524 --> 00:20:20,585
is affecting what's
going on there, right?

500
00:20:20,585 --> 00:20:22,399
So this is the
challenge that

501
00:20:22,399 --> 00:20:24,379
social scientists
face more broadly,

502
00:20:24,379 --> 00:20:25,820
I would say more
broadly than,

503
00:20:25,820 --> 00:20:27,680
than engineers.

504
00:20:27,680 --> 00:20:30,215
Here's another approach to

505
00:20:30,215 --> 00:20:32,735
describing first
and second-order.

506
00:20:32,735 --> 00:20:35,464
I'm Ray, I send from,

507
00:20:35,464 --> 00:20:36,905
from his book about

508
00:20:36,905 --> 00:20:39,874
systems practice and
climate change, right?

509
00:20:39,874 --> 00:20:42,679
And so he, he,
he draws this,

510
00:20:42,679 --> 00:20:43,939
this is his version of

511
00:20:43,939 --> 00:20:45,170
Peter check when
spring worked

512
00:20:45,170 --> 00:20:47,690
great hitter tech
Lewin's framework

513
00:20:47,690 --> 00:20:49,190
the practitioner
or the framework

514
00:20:49,190 --> 00:20:50,854
the situation of
the method, right?

515
00:20:50,854 --> 00:20:52,250
And then draws

516
00:20:52,250 --> 00:20:54,080
the person then
stepping outside

517
00:20:54,080 --> 00:20:55,219
of oneself to see

518
00:20:55,219 --> 00:20:57,694
oneself in, in
that situation.

519
00:20:57,694 --> 00:20:59,465
Right? And then so,

520
00:20:59,465 --> 00:21:01,024
so just to clarify,

521
00:21:01,024 --> 00:21:02,930
just to clarify
what's going on here,

522
00:21:02,930 --> 00:21:04,819
I've redrawn them with very

523
00:21:04,819 --> 00:21:06,979
simple, simple
diagrams, right?

524
00:21:06,979 --> 00:21:08,660
So the meat Bateson diagram

525
00:21:08,660 --> 00:21:12,679
is first-order as
this black box here.

526
00:21:12,679 --> 00:21:14,780
Second-order. I'm
going to include

527
00:21:14,780 --> 00:21:17,239
myself in in in the system.

528
00:21:17,239 --> 00:21:18,874
I'm not I'm not going
to black box that.

529
00:21:18,874 --> 00:21:20,090
I'm going to include myself

530
00:21:20,090 --> 00:21:21,440
right here and here

531
00:21:21,440 --> 00:21:22,730
it's the first-order and

532
00:21:22,730 --> 00:21:24,274
second-order kind of being,

533
00:21:24,274 --> 00:21:26,060
stepping outside
of oneself and

534
00:21:26,060 --> 00:21:28,624
imagining, imagining
oneself, right?

535
00:21:28,624 --> 00:21:29,915
And so what would this look

536
00:21:29,915 --> 00:21:31,549
like with regard to this,

537
00:21:31,549 --> 00:21:33,139
this one than this version

538
00:21:33,139 --> 00:21:34,354
that I'm proposing here,

539
00:21:34,354 --> 00:21:35,690
write the identity of

540
00:21:35,690 --> 00:21:36,950
the first order is

541
00:21:36,950 --> 00:21:39,019
the identity of the
system in question.

542
00:21:39,019 --> 00:21:40,429
And the second orders

543
00:21:40,429 --> 00:21:42,199
recursive
affiliations between

544
00:21:42,199 --> 00:21:43,580
one's own identity and

545
00:21:43,580 --> 00:21:45,574
now the system in question,

546
00:21:45,574 --> 00:21:47,659
well, get looks exactly

547
00:21:47,659 --> 00:21:49,234
the opposite of
what the me,

548
00:21:49,234 --> 00:21:53,909
the me Bateson
diagram looks like.

549
00:21:56,040 --> 00:21:58,420
Right? And so, and so what

550
00:21:58,420 --> 00:21:59,965
we have here, our, this is,

551
00:21:59,965 --> 00:22:01,060
this is what I call a

552
00:22:01,060 --> 00:22:03,070
transdisciplinary
or action research.

553
00:22:03,070 --> 00:22:08,710
You write questioning
that black boxing

554
00:22:08,710 --> 00:22:10,165
of one's research study.

555
00:22:10,165 --> 00:22:11,680
This is Ray I send

556
00:22:11,680 --> 00:22:13,135
in book also does
a metal view.

557
00:22:13,135 --> 00:22:14,994
We could say it
reflects the view

558
00:22:14,994 --> 00:22:16,704
stepping outside
of one's up.

559
00:22:16,704 --> 00:22:17,470
And this says that

560
00:22:17,470 --> 00:22:19,929
this bad affiliate
entangled are

561
00:22:19,929 --> 00:22:26,875
embedded view. Some go.

562
00:22:26,875 --> 00:22:28,734
That was cybernetics
context.

563
00:22:28,734 --> 00:22:30,849
I'm going to go through
the same sequence of

564
00:22:30,849 --> 00:22:33,640
steps in a
resilience context.

565
00:22:33,640 --> 00:22:35,410
How has identity been used

566
00:22:35,410 --> 00:22:36,520
to characterize purpose,

567
00:22:36,520 --> 00:22:38,609
false thoughts, okay,
it, how might it be?

568
00:22:38,609 --> 00:22:40,429
And here I'm going to

569
00:22:40,429 --> 00:22:43,169
go back to this
stability landscape.

570
00:22:44,650 --> 00:22:48,109
The way that this
landscape is used,

571
00:22:48,109 --> 00:22:50,149
as you're probably
familiar,

572
00:22:50,149 --> 00:22:51,469
maybe familiar is as

573
00:22:51,469 --> 00:22:53,690
an integrated FCFs model,

574
00:22:53,690 --> 00:22:55,969
meaning that the
variables here to

575
00:22:55,969 --> 00:22:57,080
define a landscape are

576
00:22:57,080 --> 00:22:58,969
both social and ecological.

577
00:22:58,969 --> 00:23:01,220
And a shift in

578
00:23:01,220 --> 00:23:07,039
the social system only
counts as a shift.

579
00:23:07,039 --> 00:23:08,660
If b, if we're

580
00:23:08,660 --> 00:23:11,000
privileging the
ecological variables,

581
00:23:11,000 --> 00:23:12,530
if our, if our,

582
00:23:12,530 --> 00:23:14,060
if we're looking to see

583
00:23:14,060 --> 00:23:16,415
what impacts we
can have on,

584
00:23:16,415 --> 00:23:19,295
on effective
ecological management,

585
00:23:19,295 --> 00:23:21,110
then it only counts
as the ship if

586
00:23:21,110 --> 00:23:25,229
the ecological
variables have shifted.

587
00:23:25,600 --> 00:23:27,725
By disaggregate,

588
00:23:27,725 --> 00:23:29,569
by creating this
brick collage.

589
00:23:29,569 --> 00:23:30,829
This is described in

590
00:23:30,829 --> 00:23:33,500
this paper with
varying Hill,

591
00:23:33,500 --> 00:23:35,359
I guess aggregate and

592
00:23:35,359 --> 00:23:36,665
creating this
brick collage,

593
00:23:36,665 --> 00:23:38,239
we're able to
look at stability

594
00:23:38,239 --> 00:23:42,034
and change
separately, right?

595
00:23:42,034 --> 00:23:44,434
Okay, so we, we have
this social shift.

596
00:23:44,434 --> 00:23:46,399
Does it create an
ecological shift?

597
00:23:46,399 --> 00:23:48,049
How about, how about
the individual

598
00:23:48,049 --> 00:23:49,340
and organization in

599
00:23:49,340 --> 00:23:50,614
related to this social and

600
00:23:50,614 --> 00:23:53,400
ecological stability
and change.

601
00:23:56,770 --> 00:23:59,269
So neat.

602
00:23:59,269 --> 00:24:00,770
In order to create this,

603
00:24:00,770 --> 00:24:03,635
we developed these
definitions here.

604
00:24:03,635 --> 00:24:05,780
Logics are factors that

605
00:24:05,780 --> 00:24:08,089
recursively stabilize
a social regime.

606
00:24:08,089 --> 00:24:09,410
And a social attractor is

607
00:24:09,410 --> 00:24:11,779
a constant constellation
of objects,

608
00:24:11,779 --> 00:24:13,624
IE and institutional logic,

609
00:24:13,624 --> 00:24:15,245
drawing upon that by

610
00:24:15,245 --> 00:24:17,884
mature set pertinent
and colleagues,

611
00:24:17,884 --> 00:24:20,150
in which path
dependence requires

612
00:24:20,150 --> 00:24:22,099
a build up of
behavioral routines,

613
00:24:22,099 --> 00:24:24,439
social connections, or
cognitive structures

614
00:24:24,439 --> 00:24:26,014
around an institution I,

615
00:24:26,014 --> 00:24:27,649
around the social factors.

616
00:24:27,649 --> 00:24:29,315
And so this is the

617
00:24:29,315 --> 00:24:31,759
recursive identity
that I have

618
00:24:31,759 --> 00:24:36,259
performed and described in

619
00:24:36,259 --> 00:24:40,070
which my stability and
change is implicated.

620
00:24:40,070 --> 00:24:41,975
Miscibility and change of,

621
00:24:41,975 --> 00:24:45,335
of the, of the
systems in which I'm.

622
00:24:45,335 --> 00:24:48,499
So, okay, last step
here, last slide.

623
00:24:48,499 --> 00:24:51,485
So compare analogies,
I'm distinctions,

624
00:24:51,485 --> 00:24:53,329
the depiction of social,

625
00:24:53,329 --> 00:24:56,075
ecological
interrelationships.

626
00:24:56,075 --> 00:24:57,754
Well, it's an
integrated landscape

627
00:24:57,754 --> 00:24:59,809
of plausible regimes
that each deliver

628
00:24:59,809 --> 00:25:01,370
a particular bundle of

629
00:25:01,370 --> 00:25:03,860
ecosystem services
symbol from,

630
00:25:03,860 --> 00:25:05,434
from my paper there, right?

631
00:25:05,434 --> 00:25:07,529
And in this version,

632
00:25:07,840 --> 00:25:09,980
the depiction of social

633
00:25:09,980 --> 00:25:12,499
ecological
interrelationships is

634
00:25:12,499 --> 00:25:14,299
as recursive
constraints and

635
00:25:14,299 --> 00:25:17,375
affordances in identity
and viability.

636
00:25:17,375 --> 00:25:21,629
The challenge of
social ecological fit.

637
00:25:22,120 --> 00:25:24,679
They'll do the
institutions,

638
00:25:24,679 --> 00:25:28,759
social institutions
norms match

639
00:25:28,759 --> 00:25:31,954
the boundaries of
the ecosystem scale.

640
00:25:31,954 --> 00:25:39,679
While the scribe,
frequently

641
00:25:39,679 --> 00:25:41,360
referenced in the
industrial and

642
00:25:41,360 --> 00:25:43,294
summarize in that paper by,

643
00:25:43,294 --> 00:25:45,334
by 4K and colleagues,

644
00:25:45,334 --> 00:25:47,690
their challenges exist that

645
00:25:47,690 --> 00:25:49,430
spatial and temporal
chemical sales,

646
00:25:49,430 --> 00:25:50,989
it doesn't apply
here because

647
00:25:50,989 --> 00:25:54,994
we've detected
data applications.

648
00:25:54,994 --> 00:25:57,219
I, you know, I think
that this is, well,

649
00:25:57,219 --> 00:25:58,954
well apply tightly coupled

650
00:25:58,954 --> 00:26:01,189
SESS because the
coupling where you

651
00:26:01,189 --> 00:26:02,239
got coupling then you don't

652
00:26:02,239 --> 00:26:03,560
have the challenge

653
00:26:03,560 --> 00:26:06,229
of spatial data, right?

654
00:26:06,229 --> 00:26:08,599
So planetary
boundaries, the

655
00:26:08,599 --> 00:26:12,200
boundary boundaries
clear watersheds,

656
00:26:12,200 --> 00:26:14,749
fisheries management
when it's not as

657
00:26:14,749 --> 00:26:16,009
complicated as the West

658
00:26:16,009 --> 00:26:17,300
Coast of North
America with,

659
00:26:17,300 --> 00:26:18,739
you know, fisheries,

660
00:26:18,739 --> 00:26:21,364
maybe my group
hating my fish,

661
00:26:21,364 --> 00:26:24,650
maybe migrating across
national boundaries.

662
00:26:24,650 --> 00:26:26,720
In some cases you can get

663
00:26:26,720 --> 00:26:28,324
a clearer fit, right?

664
00:26:28,324 --> 00:26:31,805
And those are,
those are maybe

665
00:26:31,805 --> 00:26:34,324
the most clear applications

666
00:26:34,324 --> 00:26:37,085
and identified elsewhere.

667
00:26:37,085 --> 00:26:39,139
In addition, this can,

668
00:26:39,139 --> 00:26:41,780
this can be applied to
educational systems,

669
00:26:41,780 --> 00:26:44,104
financial systems,
any, any type of,

670
00:26:44,104 --> 00:26:47,255
any type of system,
social system, right?

671
00:26:47,255 --> 00:26:50,345
Analysis of social
change through logics,

672
00:26:50,345 --> 00:26:52,760
analysis of Standpoint
and Social Change,

673
00:26:52,760 --> 00:26:54,169
dynamics of individual

674
00:26:54,169 --> 00:26:55,624
and collective identity,

675
00:26:55,624 --> 00:26:57,140
purpose and agency, not

676
00:26:57,140 --> 00:27:00,290
depicted in the standard
model, but all,

677
00:27:00,290 --> 00:27:02,689
all discuss in this version

678
00:27:02,689 --> 00:27:04,280
that Greg and I feel great,

679
00:27:04,280 --> 00:27:05,270
Helen and I have good news.

680
00:27:05,270 --> 00:27:11,179
And so that's,
that's the wrap up.

681
00:27:11,179 --> 00:27:17,479
And one has to
ask the question,

682
00:27:17,479 --> 00:27:19,039
oh, I love it when

683
00:27:19,039 --> 00:27:20,660
people give us time
to add discussion.

684
00:27:20,660 --> 00:27:24,150
So I'll get right.
Yeah, I feel

685
00:27:28,030 --> 00:27:31,969
good. Questions already.

686
00:27:31,969 --> 00:27:38,825
So it's like this
is like a theory,

687
00:27:38,825 --> 00:27:42,380
medical theory that
could be useful

688
00:27:42,380 --> 00:27:46,759
for dealing some
actual beads.

689
00:27:46,759 --> 00:27:52,040
So biologies that education

690
00:27:52,040 --> 00:27:55,384
and this point of view
might help one better.

691
00:27:55,384 --> 00:28:00,110
Grades mean are already

692
00:28:00,110 --> 00:28:02,585
referencing this
Manuel mode.

693
00:28:02,585 --> 00:28:06,679
If I this is the
high level view,

694
00:28:06,679 --> 00:28:08,449
high level theoretical
view and I

695
00:28:08,449 --> 00:28:10,954
think probably is familiar.

696
00:28:10,954 --> 00:28:16,444
It's so okay, so this,

697
00:28:16,444 --> 00:28:17,990
this is a somewhat
different

698
00:28:17,990 --> 00:28:20,060
take on things maybe.

699
00:28:20,060 --> 00:28:21,739
But you're doing it.

700
00:28:21,739 --> 00:28:24,965
Because ultimately
because you want,

701
00:28:24,965 --> 00:28:28,550
say, social actions
be Warp effect.

702
00:28:28,550 --> 00:28:32,419
You want if you're
a manager and

703
00:28:32,419 --> 00:28:34,429
still not have
counter-intuitive

704
00:28:34,429 --> 00:28:36,274
adverse effects or

705
00:28:36,274 --> 00:28:38,059
you're doing this because

706
00:28:38,059 --> 00:28:40,550
this mindset you
think would be

707
00:28:40,550 --> 00:28:42,410
useful in the real world by

708
00:28:42,410 --> 00:28:46,009
people like ego tries APL.

709
00:28:46,009 --> 00:28:51,155
So what can you
walk us through?

710
00:28:51,155 --> 00:28:52,699
How this way of

711
00:28:52,699 --> 00:28:55,700
thinking to prevent
people from

712
00:28:55,700 --> 00:28:57,919
making mistakes
were made people

713
00:28:57,919 --> 00:29:00,830
more effective or what?

714
00:29:00,830 --> 00:29:03,110
The bottom-line peo, Right?

715
00:29:03,110 --> 00:29:07,039
Right. Yeah. Yeah. When
I presented this ad,

716
00:29:07,039 --> 00:29:12,019
I'm Adam ASC, a
few months ago.

717
00:29:12,019 --> 00:29:13,745
Ray, I sense
that there's a,

718
00:29:13,745 --> 00:29:15,439
there's a fifth
step here or

719
00:29:15,439 --> 00:29:18,635
a or sequence that you
haven't mentioned yet?

720
00:29:18,635 --> 00:29:22,639
Exactly what yeah.

721
00:29:22,639 --> 00:29:31,230
Yeah. Oh, well,

722
00:29:31,450 --> 00:29:33,860
you know, it it
it it certainly

723
00:29:33,860 --> 00:29:36,514
is is theoretical served.

724
00:29:36,514 --> 00:29:44,029
And there are things that

725
00:29:44,029 --> 00:29:48,019
we can conceptualize here

726
00:29:48,019 --> 00:29:51,454
that are limited by the,

727
00:29:51,454 --> 00:29:54,930
the integrated
landscape, right?

728
00:29:55,000 --> 00:29:58,894
We can conceptualize,
change

729
00:29:58,894 --> 00:30:02,659
it into an individual
organizational,

730
00:30:02,659 --> 00:30:06,420
social, and
ecological levels.

731
00:30:11,200 --> 00:30:16,520
I'm going to answer
a way uglier.

732
00:30:16,520 --> 00:30:20,840
But so in my
undergrad background,

733
00:30:20,840 --> 00:30:23,479
did some classes
in resilience

734
00:30:23,479 --> 00:30:26,224
in international
relations contexts.

735
00:30:26,224 --> 00:30:29,060
And you know, it's a
problem area is, well,

736
00:30:29,060 --> 00:30:30,920
our government
structures or

737
00:30:30,920 --> 00:30:32,120
at the national level,

738
00:30:32,120 --> 00:30:33,379
but our environmental
problems

739
00:30:33,379 --> 00:30:34,775
are at the global level.

740
00:30:34,775 --> 00:30:37,550
To higher create
governmental structures

741
00:30:37,550 --> 00:30:39,754
at the global level to
solve those problems.

742
00:30:39,754 --> 00:30:41,164
Or are we don't

743
00:30:41,164 --> 00:30:42,860
have any solutions
to those problems.

744
00:30:42,860 --> 00:30:44,360
And all the problems.

745
00:30:44,360 --> 00:30:46,610
The solutions, the
problems are described as

746
00:30:46,610 --> 00:30:49,695
being some or other manner.

747
00:30:49,695 --> 00:30:52,390
So we need to prioritize

748
00:30:52,390 --> 00:30:54,399
it and let market
forces fix

749
00:30:54,399 --> 00:30:57,550
everything before we
can create some sort of

750
00:30:57,550 --> 00:30:59,740
governmental
control or agency

751
00:30:59,740 --> 00:31:02,905
that can help manage
some of these problems.

752
00:31:02,905 --> 00:31:04,930
And then, you know,
there's literature from

753
00:31:04,930 --> 00:31:05,980
both sides attacking

754
00:31:05,980 --> 00:31:07,810
neither of those positions.

755
00:31:07,810 --> 00:31:12,580
But the one of a
model that I mean,

756
00:31:12,580 --> 00:31:14,259
if I have time might
be useful as you know,

757
00:31:14,259 --> 00:31:15,835
what if people just wanting

758
00:31:15,835 --> 00:31:18,594
different things than
they currently wines?

759
00:31:18,594 --> 00:31:19,630
There's just not really

760
00:31:19,630 --> 00:31:20,620
a way to talk about that

761
00:31:20,620 --> 00:31:22,719
in your integrated systems.

762
00:31:22,719 --> 00:31:24,159
Do that over here.

763
00:31:24,159 --> 00:31:25,614
You're talking about how

764
00:31:25,614 --> 00:31:27,129
individual changes can

765
00:31:27,129 --> 00:31:28,809
result in
organizational changes,

766
00:31:28,809 --> 00:31:30,610
which resulted in
social changes,

767
00:31:30,610 --> 00:31:32,425
which can result in
ecological changes.

768
00:31:32,425 --> 00:31:34,194
But also the ways that

769
00:31:34,194 --> 00:31:37,059
individual beliefs
are identities are

770
00:31:37,059 --> 00:31:40,120
constrained by their
participation in

771
00:31:40,120 --> 00:31:41,620
a larger sense of

772
00:31:41,620 --> 00:31:43,630
being able to just
make that explicit.

773
00:31:43,630 --> 00:31:45,129
Lets you talk about,

774
00:31:45,129 --> 00:31:49,074
you know, how, do you
know how this works?

775
00:31:49,074 --> 00:31:51,474
And then works its
way back down?

776
00:31:51,474 --> 00:31:53,859
I guess like talking about

777
00:31:53,859 --> 00:31:56,484
the values of a
country, you know,

778
00:31:56,484 --> 00:31:57,640
doesn't really
make sense unless

779
00:31:57,640 --> 00:31:58,900
you're talking
about aggregating

780
00:31:58,900 --> 00:32:02,109
the individual or
your community values

781
00:32:02,109 --> 00:32:03,999
that make up that
country comments.

782
00:32:03,999 --> 00:32:06,429
So again, being able
to point that out,

783
00:32:06,429 --> 00:32:08,784
we're just aggregate those.

784
00:32:08,784 --> 00:32:12,469
Lets you focus on those
dynamics. I guess.

785
00:32:15,180 --> 00:32:18,924
I just got give just one.

786
00:32:18,924 --> 00:32:21,174
Don't love theory.

787
00:32:21,174 --> 00:32:23,274
I totally love theory

788
00:32:23,274 --> 00:32:24,940
for its own sake, right?

789
00:32:24,940 --> 00:32:26,859
But, you know, when I,

790
00:32:26,859 --> 00:32:28,960
when I see your efforts,

791
00:32:28,960 --> 00:32:30,399
that looks like
where it's almost

792
00:32:30,399 --> 00:32:32,019
eight than I, I'm,

793
00:32:32,019 --> 00:32:36,504
I go, I put on rice.

794
00:32:36,504 --> 00:32:38,920
And if this theory
shows that our,

795
00:32:38,920 --> 00:32:41,604
this thing models don't
well capture what,

796
00:32:41,604 --> 00:32:44,439
what system change looks
like then isn't it

797
00:32:44,439 --> 00:32:46,750
worth pointing that out

798
00:32:46,750 --> 00:32:49,190
and developing
some alternatives?

799
00:32:49,190 --> 00:32:53,439
Well, the problem is,

800
00:32:53,540 --> 00:32:56,054
let's say one chain.

801
00:32:56,054 --> 00:32:57,569
What is the problem
with climate

802
00:32:57,569 --> 00:32:58,589
change is that people

803
00:32:58,589 --> 00:33:01,754
don't accept diverse
cybernetic model.

804
00:33:01,754 --> 00:33:05,070
Not a problem. We're not
including ourselves.

805
00:33:05,070 --> 00:33:06,540
We do include ourselves

806
00:33:06,540 --> 00:33:08,429
and model it's
anthropogenic,

807
00:33:08,429 --> 00:33:11,069
so is maybe others

808
00:33:11,069 --> 00:33:13,079
alone does not.
Everyone dies, right?

809
00:33:13,079 --> 00:33:15,149
But that isn't
the prop liquor

810
00:33:15,149 --> 00:33:18,269
that you only have
articles which

811
00:33:18,269 --> 00:33:19,859
really are kind
of first-order

812
00:33:19,859 --> 00:33:21,480
models and they're not

813
00:33:21,480 --> 00:33:23,564
accepted by a very
large number of

814
00:33:23,564 --> 00:33:26,265
people and by
powerful forces.

815
00:33:26,265 --> 00:33:28,230
So the problem isn't
that we're not

816
00:33:28,230 --> 00:33:31,475
including ourselves and
the model problem is,

817
00:33:31,475 --> 00:33:34,809
at an engineering
type model of

818
00:33:34,809 --> 00:33:36,820
reality is not accepted as

819
00:33:36,820 --> 00:33:39,279
true by lot of people.

820
00:33:39,279 --> 00:33:42,189
But you can figure out
who those people are

821
00:33:42,189 --> 00:33:45,669
by the communities that
they participate in.

822
00:33:45,669 --> 00:33:49,179
And so how do I constitute
my identity while

823
00:33:49,179 --> 00:33:50,874
I'm a member of a group

824
00:33:50,874 --> 00:33:52,959
that doesn't believe
in this stuff.

825
00:33:52,959 --> 00:33:55,404
I believe in my
watermelons,

826
00:33:55,404 --> 00:33:57,370
grease on the outside,
fat on the inside.

827
00:33:57,370 --> 00:33:58,570
And this involves the plots

828
00:33:58,570 --> 00:34:00,085
take away our freedoms.

829
00:34:00,085 --> 00:34:06,550
You know, basically
it's, you.

830
00:34:06,550 --> 00:34:08,920
Have your views
which are coming to

831
00:34:08,920 --> 00:34:10,060
you from the community

832
00:34:10,060 --> 00:34:11,364
that you participate in.

833
00:34:11,364 --> 00:34:13,090
And those communities
are informed

834
00:34:13,090 --> 00:34:16,600
by their Rome's
larger structures.

835
00:34:16,600 --> 00:34:18,250
So again, it's just
giving you some language

836
00:34:18,250 --> 00:34:22,060
to identify who isn't,
who is anchored.

837
00:34:22,060 --> 00:34:26,635
In addition, we
specify a language,

838
00:34:26,635 --> 00:34:31,360
C language for describing
systemic change,

839
00:34:31,360 --> 00:34:33,010
systemic social
change, right?

840
00:34:33,010 --> 00:34:36,760
This idea of logics
and institutional,

841
00:34:36,760 --> 00:34:38,229
along with the definition

842
00:34:38,229 --> 00:34:39,535
of a social attractor,

843
00:34:39,535 --> 00:34:43,880
which as far as I
know, didn't exist.

844
00:34:43,980 --> 00:34:51,040
Before. Just turned
on the camera.

845
00:34:51,040 --> 00:34:52,510
I didn't do it earlier
so that people

846
00:34:52,510 --> 00:34:55,899
out there are 16
people on either side.

847
00:34:55,899 --> 00:34:58,149
It looks like.
And I'm going

848
00:34:58,149 --> 00:34:59,994
to encourage those
of you in the ether.

849
00:34:59,994 --> 00:35:02,259
If you want to
ask a question,

850
00:35:02,259 --> 00:35:04,255
just type it in the
chat box and I'll,

851
00:35:04,255 --> 00:35:07,900
I'll ask a question in
from here. Say, Yeah.

852
00:35:07,900 --> 00:35:10,375
Well, I want to

853
00:35:10,375 --> 00:35:12,610
point out something
that's Neta.

854
00:35:12,610 --> 00:35:16,435
We might say Q model,
something's not fair.

855
00:35:16,435 --> 00:35:19,059
And that is, the idea of

856
00:35:19,059 --> 00:35:23,815
originality is
definitely not to space.

857
00:35:23,815 --> 00:35:25,690
We would ban wise situation

858
00:35:25,690 --> 00:35:28,390
is that you're still.

859
00:35:28,390 --> 00:35:33,689
So think I'm Rachel
Carson's introduction of

860
00:35:33,689 --> 00:35:36,359
the serious problem of

861
00:35:36,359 --> 00:35:40,755
pollution to the world.

862
00:35:40,755 --> 00:35:42,795
What we now think of as

863
00:35:42,795 --> 00:35:46,454
ecological libraries
and noses in the not.

864
00:35:46,454 --> 00:35:49,485
So you end up with an
idea being what word,

865
00:35:49,485 --> 00:35:51,900
which we all agree

866
00:35:51,900 --> 00:35:53,610
with Silent Spring

867
00:35:53,610 --> 00:35:55,589
as really important
influence.

868
00:35:55,589 --> 00:35:57,704
But it isn't
within the model.

869
00:35:57,704 --> 00:35:59,924
And if it isn't worth it,

870
00:35:59,924 --> 00:36:02,100
working within spec,

871
00:36:02,100 --> 00:36:04,139
we had something
new is not there.

872
00:36:04,139 --> 00:36:06,735
The individual has
brought something out,

873
00:36:06,735 --> 00:36:08,009
but it's new, does not get

874
00:36:08,009 --> 00:36:09,524
into an existing paradigm.

875
00:36:09,524 --> 00:36:11,519
It's gotta get spread
by some other means.

876
00:36:11,519 --> 00:36:13,815
Bad attribute this
embed, it's not in here.

877
00:36:13,815 --> 00:36:15,910
They're saying
another measure

878
00:36:15,910 --> 00:36:18,055
that it's something,
move that around.

879
00:36:18,055 --> 00:36:20,619
The other thing
is that as red,

880
00:36:20,619 --> 00:36:21,804
let's go back to here.

881
00:36:21,804 --> 00:36:25,150
Let's say a pathogenic IBM

882
00:36:25,150 --> 00:36:27,579
comes in and begins
twice new IT system.

883
00:36:27,579 --> 00:36:29,169
That too is

884
00:36:29,169 --> 00:36:30,864
a different kind of
original system,

885
00:36:30,864 --> 00:36:32,515
isn't with their illnesses.

886
00:36:32,515 --> 00:36:36,625
Either one is treated

887
00:36:36,625 --> 00:36:40,975
by a preexisting format
within the system.

888
00:36:40,975 --> 00:36:44,350
So to me, that is,

889
00:36:44,350 --> 00:36:45,909
since we seem to be

890
00:36:45,909 --> 00:36:47,920
learning organisms which do

891
00:36:47,920 --> 00:36:49,539
classification and we

892
00:36:49,539 --> 00:36:52,165
have new pacification idea.

893
00:36:52,165 --> 00:36:54,144
That seems to be
something which

894
00:36:54,144 --> 00:36:56,555
really should be
considered Buddhist.

895
00:36:56,555 --> 00:37:00,105
When we get to
question improvement,

896
00:37:00,105 --> 00:37:01,930
destruction.

897
00:37:02,090 --> 00:37:06,285
Interesting enough.

898
00:37:06,285 --> 00:37:12,599
You satisfy the top chart

899
00:37:12,599 --> 00:37:17,295
brings to mind the online
fitness landscapes.

900
00:37:17,295 --> 00:37:23,115
Yes. Substrates,
infrared, light.

901
00:37:23,115 --> 00:37:24,960
And so the current
environment worry

902
00:37:24,960 --> 00:37:28,650
and represents a series of

903
00:37:28,650 --> 00:37:33,569
fitness landscapes
where the challenges

904
00:37:33,569 --> 00:37:35,940
to move an entity

905
00:37:35,940 --> 00:37:38,859
from a PICU
fitness landscape.

906
00:37:38,880 --> 00:37:41,920
There are indeed
violate right onto

907
00:37:41,920 --> 00:37:43,115
another fitness landscape.

908
00:37:43,115 --> 00:37:44,245
And that's a challenge.

909
00:37:44,245 --> 00:37:44,950
I think with

910
00:37:44,950 --> 00:37:51,864
the Rachel Carson
Charleston example.

911
00:37:51,864 --> 00:37:53,200
When the river started to

912
00:37:53,200 --> 00:37:56,350
catch on fire ignites,

913
00:37:56,350 --> 00:37:58,885
the elites began to
pay a price for it.

914
00:37:58,885 --> 00:38:00,279
That was oscillations to

915
00:38:00,279 --> 00:38:06,010
move between the signing

916
00:38:06,010 --> 00:38:07,600
and the fitness landscape.

917
00:38:07,600 --> 00:38:08,709
And you certainly
worried about

918
00:38:08,709 --> 00:38:12,610
previous burning situation

919
00:38:12,610 --> 00:38:14,304
which was
recognized before.

920
00:38:14,304 --> 00:38:15,879
So you basically don't have

921
00:38:15,879 --> 00:38:17,680
it move through
the landscape.

922
00:38:17,680 --> 00:38:19,690
You have defined your also.

923
00:38:19,690 --> 00:38:21,849
But the current picture

924
00:38:21,849 --> 00:38:23,890
on what comes so
uncomfortable.

925
00:38:23,890 --> 00:38:25,000
Yeah, we're getting find

926
00:38:25,000 --> 00:38:26,410
something new to do
what I'm saying that

927
00:38:26,410 --> 00:38:29,814
the news is not there
to just build all grey.

928
00:38:29,814 --> 00:38:33,340
Sure. Yeah. Because any

929
00:38:33,340 --> 00:38:35,844
on the social level here,

930
00:38:35,844 --> 00:38:37,629
this is, this is the level

931
00:38:37,629 --> 00:38:39,205
of possible regimes, right?

932
00:38:39,205 --> 00:38:41,695
And so we shifted
to a regime

933
00:38:41,695 --> 00:38:45,160
of regulation around the,

934
00:38:45,160 --> 00:38:48,595
the, the pollutants
that were perceived

935
00:38:48,595 --> 00:38:50,620
as causing the issue

936
00:38:50,620 --> 00:38:52,900
that you buy them by
Rachel Carson or that.

937
00:38:52,900 --> 00:38:54,699
But, yes, but you got

938
00:38:54,699 --> 00:38:57,864
regimes which Bush
didn't need advocation,

939
00:38:57,864 --> 00:38:59,844
wasn't known to exist.

940
00:38:59,844 --> 00:39:01,539
My leisure.

941
00:39:01,539 --> 00:39:03,130
You can, you can argue

942
00:39:03,130 --> 00:39:05,409
that all possible
existences,

943
00:39:05,409 --> 00:39:06,909
or in your model, that

944
00:39:06,909 --> 00:39:08,544
wood is nothing discovered.

945
00:39:08,544 --> 00:39:09,909
But they don't
model wouldn't make

946
00:39:09,909 --> 00:39:12,130
any sense because
it's covered.

947
00:39:12,130 --> 00:39:14,334
It's me.

948
00:39:14,334 --> 00:39:15,760
A different collection of

949
00:39:15,760 --> 00:39:17,319
variables for describing

950
00:39:17,319 --> 00:39:19,720
the social Russian question

951
00:39:19,720 --> 00:39:23,425
prompting offer from it.

952
00:39:23,425 --> 00:39:25,779
When you say that the
first model that I

953
00:39:25,779 --> 00:39:27,940
think any in the column

954
00:39:27,940 --> 00:39:29,949
that's to the left is

955
00:39:29,949 --> 00:39:32,109
more of a change
problem approach.

956
00:39:32,109 --> 00:39:33,910
And the second being
more fitting to

957
00:39:33,910 --> 00:39:36,684
be wicked problem
point of view.

958
00:39:36,684 --> 00:39:38,769
I wouldn't make
that distinction.

959
00:39:38,769 --> 00:39:47,095
Now. You know, this,
they're using,

960
00:39:47,095 --> 00:39:48,850
they're using this
integrated model

961
00:39:48,850 --> 00:39:51,010
to describe
planetary boundaries

962
00:39:51,010 --> 00:39:52,959
and shifts

963
00:39:52,959 --> 00:39:55,510
in lake ecosystems and
fisheries systems,

964
00:39:55,510 --> 00:39:57,519
many different types of

965
00:39:57,519 --> 00:40:00,969
of applications
that we got.

966
00:40:00,969 --> 00:40:03,490
I don't have any
control volume,

967
00:40:03,490 --> 00:40:06,534
probably just nice
everyone knows something.

968
00:40:06,534 --> 00:40:09,159
Right? And those examples

969
00:40:09,159 --> 00:40:10,839
are all collected on

970
00:40:10,839 --> 00:40:16,359
this regime
shifts.org website.

971
00:40:16,359 --> 00:40:19,660
How do you know when
to stop the recursion?

972
00:40:19,660 --> 00:40:22,375
We you well, you know,

973
00:40:22,375 --> 00:40:23,649
I'm I decide I'm going

974
00:40:23,649 --> 00:40:25,030
to step out and observe it.

975
00:40:25,030 --> 00:40:28,630
Then. The possibility
of, I mean,

976
00:40:28,630 --> 00:40:30,400
we always love to
play games with

977
00:40:30,400 --> 00:40:31,509
recursion models for

978
00:40:31,509 --> 00:40:32,845
that reason I'm
just wondering,

979
00:40:32,845 --> 00:40:35,049
is a single level of

980
00:40:35,049 --> 00:40:36,099
recursion and there's no

981
00:40:36,099 --> 00:40:37,495
reason to stop there.

982
00:40:37,495 --> 00:40:40,060
Right? So, all right.

983
00:40:40,060 --> 00:40:41,980
But I don't know how
to apply that idea

984
00:40:41,980 --> 00:40:43,105
because you
don't want those

985
00:40:43,105 --> 00:40:44,590
rehearsals in your brain.

986
00:40:44,590 --> 00:40:46,734
That's useful
actually, right?

987
00:40:46,734 --> 00:40:49,690
I mean, we could
talk here about

988
00:40:49,690 --> 00:40:52,960
the extent or breathing

989
00:40:52,960 --> 00:40:54,580
can go lower than
the individual.

990
00:40:54,580 --> 00:40:57,130
Yeah, yeah, exactly
exactly where I'm going.

991
00:40:57,130 --> 00:41:00,640
I mean, we could talk
about is identity.

992
00:41:00,640 --> 00:41:03,249
Encapsulated conduit
typically are

993
00:41:03,249 --> 00:41:08,050
biologically and there
are similar kind of.

994
00:41:08,050 --> 00:41:11,289
Hierarchies that
incorporate a,

995
00:41:11,289 --> 00:41:15,220
a biological or, or
cognitive level.

996
00:41:15,220 --> 00:41:17,455
Yeah. Let me see.

997
00:41:17,455 --> 00:41:19,345
This building that dagger,

998
00:41:19,345 --> 00:41:22,660
Pythagorean has a
pattern like that,

999
00:41:22,660 --> 00:41:25,809
a penalty like, like,
you know, yeah,

1000
00:41:25,809 --> 00:41:27,549
he hasn't, he, he's,

1001
00:41:27,549 --> 00:41:29,140
he's not using
landscapes are

1002
00:41:29,140 --> 00:41:31,090
not using adaptive cycles,

1003
00:41:31,090 --> 00:41:32,650
but he is using describing

1004
00:41:32,650 --> 00:41:33,849
the level approach in

1005
00:41:33,849 --> 00:41:38,330
which the continent
or, or biological.

1006
00:41:39,180 --> 00:41:41,889
But going the other
way that we often

1007
00:41:41,889 --> 00:41:43,735
are looking at a
local problems.

1008
00:41:43,735 --> 00:41:45,040
And then the idea of

1009
00:41:45,040 --> 00:41:47,470
expanding from a
local perspective

1010
00:41:47,470 --> 00:41:51,700
outward is
another expansion

1011
00:41:51,700 --> 00:41:53,004
of perspective, I guess.

1012
00:41:53,004 --> 00:41:54,369
So the key here really

1013
00:41:54,369 --> 00:41:56,905
seems to be one
perspective.

1014
00:41:56,905 --> 00:41:59,290
And it seems like
I don't know

1015
00:41:59,290 --> 00:42:00,909
if the word identity and

1016
00:42:00,909 --> 00:42:04,165
the words perspective are

1017
00:42:04,165 --> 00:42:06,264
necessarily not
closely connected.

1018
00:42:06,264 --> 00:42:07,660
In this case, it
feels like there

1019
00:42:07,660 --> 00:42:10,510
is kind of a
relationship there.

1020
00:42:10,510 --> 00:42:12,099
And we know just

1021
00:42:12,099 --> 00:42:14,574
instinctively
that taking new,

1022
00:42:14,574 --> 00:42:16,690
different respect
is finding

1023
00:42:16,690 --> 00:42:19,960
some way to get ourselves
out of the box,

1024
00:42:19,960 --> 00:42:21,640
as you kept saying, is so

1025
00:42:21,640 --> 00:42:24,460
important to doing
good thinking.

1026
00:42:24,460 --> 00:42:27,489
I like that. I tend
to use the word

1027
00:42:27,489 --> 00:42:31,824
standpoint as,
as perspective.

1028
00:42:31,824 --> 00:42:33,430
Can, can shift, but

1029
00:42:33,430 --> 00:42:35,965
standpoint is
more embodied.

1030
00:42:35,965 --> 00:42:37,060
Yeah, that's why I

1031
00:42:37,060 --> 00:42:39,379
think the
distinction there.

1032
00:42:42,090 --> 00:42:47,959
I'm still thinking. Yes, so

1033
00:42:48,810 --> 00:42:54,864
this gives your
model is which one?

1034
00:42:54,864 --> 00:42:58,225
This is another this
is another model.

1035
00:42:58,225 --> 00:43:00,985
I'm sorry. That
you're all yeah.

1036
00:43:00,985 --> 00:43:03,369
All of these are models.

1037
00:43:03,369 --> 00:43:05,110
Yeah. I mean, I'm

1038
00:43:05,110 --> 00:43:06,549
fascinated with
this one, not,

1039
00:43:06,549 --> 00:43:10,480
not homeless bending
where I've eaten at.

1040
00:43:10,480 --> 00:43:13,279
Delighted to hear
your thoughts on it.

1041
00:43:13,710 --> 00:43:15,939
And you think that

1042
00:43:15,939 --> 00:43:19,194
they're better
than other models.

1043
00:43:19,194 --> 00:43:21,639
With regard to this one,

1044
00:43:21,639 --> 00:43:23,034
I think there's something

1045
00:43:23,034 --> 00:43:24,369
interesting to say in

1046
00:43:24,369 --> 00:43:32,215
that I don't thinks,

1047
00:43:32,215 --> 00:43:34,450
I think there's
something here

1048
00:43:34,450 --> 00:43:35,740
about that can't be

1049
00:43:35,740 --> 00:43:38,600
captured by
syllogistic reasoning.

1050
00:43:40,110 --> 00:43:43,000
And so purse, when

1051
00:43:43,000 --> 00:43:45,070
pers talks

1052
00:43:45,070 --> 00:43:46,870
about abduct deck
or a retroactive,

1053
00:43:46,870 --> 00:43:48,130
he goes to this

1054
00:43:48,130 --> 00:43:50,244
is a 100 plus
years ago, right?

1055
00:43:50,244 --> 00:43:51,939
He goes to still
just that kind

1056
00:43:51,939 --> 00:43:56,214
of approaches to
defining, defining them.

1057
00:43:56,214 --> 00:43:58,599
And I, I, there's

1058
00:43:58,599 --> 00:43:59,859
something about
this ladder of

1059
00:43:59,859 --> 00:44:01,180
reasoning that I
don't think it's law

1060
00:44:01,180 --> 00:44:04,370
captured by some of
just the format's.

1061
00:44:08,670 --> 00:44:11,019
Yeah, I think it
does seem like

1062
00:44:11,019 --> 00:44:14,305
a of these it's useful to,

1063
00:44:14,305 --> 00:44:16,510
to ground ourselves in,

1064
00:44:16,510 --> 00:44:18,850
in analytical

1065
00:44:18,850 --> 00:44:20,229
reasoning and
inductive reasoning.

1066
00:44:20,229 --> 00:44:22,674
We use those a lot
and ask ourselves,

1067
00:44:22,674 --> 00:44:25,599
how do we, what wore on?

1068
00:44:25,599 --> 00:44:28,640
I think this idea of
thinking analogies.

1069
00:44:28,650 --> 00:44:30,849
I guess you
could argue that

1070
00:44:30,849 --> 00:44:33,249
analogies are kind of
closely related kin.

1071
00:44:33,249 --> 00:44:35,710
Reasoning maybe, but
yeah, but they're not.

1072
00:44:35,710 --> 00:44:37,989
How do we just get
more mileage out of

1073
00:44:37,989 --> 00:44:39,999
our different ways
of thinking, right?

1074
00:44:39,999 --> 00:44:42,805
So they're definitely
these triangles hover.

1075
00:44:42,805 --> 00:44:44,439
So I described,
in the example

1076
00:44:44,439 --> 00:44:46,284
that I've described
right about,

1077
00:44:46,284 --> 00:44:47,890
I'm working on an
annual report.

1078
00:44:47,890 --> 00:44:49,539
I look at other
annual reports

1079
00:44:49,539 --> 00:44:51,475
to inform what I
want to do, right?

1080
00:44:51,475 --> 00:44:53,560
I'm not looking to
create synthesised,

1081
00:44:53,560 --> 00:44:55,119
so that's, that's not

1082
00:44:55,119 --> 00:44:56,860
the right way. But
there is this.

1083
00:44:56,860 --> 00:44:59,754
How do I select instances

1084
00:44:59,754 --> 00:45:01,270
from which it can develop

1085
00:45:01,270 --> 00:45:03,190
analogical
reasoning, right?

1086
00:45:03,190 --> 00:45:05,335
That, that, those
selection of

1087
00:45:05,335 --> 00:45:08,695
instances rely on
a categorical,

1088
00:45:08,695 --> 00:45:11,020
implied, implicit,

1089
00:45:11,020 --> 00:45:12,460
perhaps, probably implicit,

1090
00:45:12,460 --> 00:45:14,110
probably not explicit, had

1091
00:45:14,110 --> 00:45:15,489
a girl assumption about

1092
00:45:15,489 --> 00:45:17,665
what counts as a
valid instance.

1093
00:45:17,665 --> 00:45:20,665
Right. And thus the
example of our,

1094
00:45:20,665 --> 00:45:22,420
what if an annual
report look more

1095
00:45:22,420 --> 00:45:24,655
like a like a postcard?

1096
00:45:24,655 --> 00:45:26,634
That's when you've, so,

1097
00:45:26,634 --> 00:45:28,240
so that is going back to

1098
00:45:28,240 --> 00:45:30,174
an inductive
categorization, right?

1099
00:45:30,174 --> 00:45:31,389
In order to get outside

1100
00:45:31,389 --> 00:45:32,739
the box, Joseph, I mean,

1101
00:45:32,739 --> 00:45:34,329
you wouldn't need
to necessarily do

1102
00:45:34,329 --> 00:45:36,280
any new inductive
reasoning in

1103
00:45:36,280 --> 00:45:38,379
order to do your
analogical reasoning,

1104
00:45:38,379 --> 00:45:39,550
you can you, somebody's

1105
00:45:39,550 --> 00:45:44,574
existing category system
and just a o, a lot.

1106
00:45:44,574 --> 00:45:46,840
Given that we can,

1107
00:45:46,840 --> 00:45:48,310
we can say all
these things are a

1108
00:45:48,310 --> 00:45:51,400
late under this aspect,

1109
00:45:51,400 --> 00:45:54,039
right at the end of
a certain sort of

1110
00:45:54,039 --> 00:45:55,959
surfaces and essences

1111
00:45:55,959 --> 00:45:57,669
Douglas Hofstadter book.

1112
00:45:57,669 --> 00:46:00,429
He basically comes to
the conclusion that

1113
00:46:00,429 --> 00:46:02,485
analogy and category are

1114
00:46:02,485 --> 00:46:04,090
kinda hard to separate.

1115
00:46:04,090 --> 00:46:06,130
And at some, at some
point, well, yeah,

1116
00:46:06,130 --> 00:46:07,960
after 400 pages
of giving us

1117
00:46:07,960 --> 00:46:11,360
all these examples,
analogies, right?

1118
00:46:12,210 --> 00:46:15,879
You know, he's, he's
thesis in that book

1119
00:46:15,879 --> 00:46:18,805
is a thesis of a
cognitive scientist.

1120
00:46:18,805 --> 00:46:20,304
He's trying to
say, argue that

1121
00:46:20,304 --> 00:46:22,165
analogy is the
core of cognition.

1122
00:46:22,165 --> 00:46:24,340
Or that's not
what I'm doing.

1123
00:46:24,340 --> 00:46:27,860
All right, I want this
as a tool for design,

1124
00:46:28,500 --> 00:46:30,970
design perspective
rather than

1125
00:46:30,970 --> 00:46:33,410
a cognitive science
perspective.

1126
00:46:33,720 --> 00:46:39,984
So theta, so as to preside,

1127
00:46:39,984 --> 00:46:42,379
Let's say hello to

1128
00:46:42,379 --> 00:46:44,065
address a problem like

1129
00:46:44,065 --> 00:46:45,369
climate change or something

1130
00:46:45,369 --> 00:46:48,115
where I think the solution

1131
00:46:48,115 --> 00:46:49,749
is changing

1132
00:46:49,749 --> 00:46:52,630
people's your themselves
can change it.

1133
00:46:52,630 --> 00:46:53,710
So they think
they're part of

1134
00:46:53,710 --> 00:46:58,345
the whole shape them
individual houses down.

1135
00:46:58,345 --> 00:46:59,710
And why do we use this

1136
00:46:59,710 --> 00:47:01,554
to approach that problem?

1137
00:47:01,554 --> 00:47:05,275
Yeah. Yeah,
overcoming inertia.

1138
00:47:05,275 --> 00:47:08,679
Yeah. I mean, so chosen
ethnic and says,

1139
00:47:08,679 --> 00:47:10,944
I think I will write,

1140
00:47:10,944 --> 00:47:13,149
this has helped
me to refinance

1141
00:47:13,149 --> 00:47:14,814
or to show battalion eval.

1142
00:47:14,814 --> 00:47:18,729
Does Haraway probably yeah.

1143
00:47:18,729 --> 00:47:22,419
Lot up to the top.

1144
00:47:22,419 --> 00:47:25,435
Yeah. Because
unless that problem

1145
00:47:25,435 --> 00:47:28,465
solve unsolved problem
at this point,

1146
00:47:28,465 --> 00:47:30,700
we have an example though.

1147
00:47:30,700 --> 00:47:31,524
I think it was China.

1148
00:47:31,524 --> 00:47:33,550
China. They just,
they analogical.

1149
00:47:33,550 --> 00:47:35,409
They take all our staff
can they displayed

1150
00:47:35,409 --> 00:47:37,750
hindrances as close
to the shipper wall,

1151
00:47:37,750 --> 00:47:38,050
obviously,

1152
00:47:38,050 --> 00:47:40,210
you can't bring more
startling and neglect.

1153
00:47:40,210 --> 00:47:42,084
Different people recreated

1154
00:47:42,084 --> 00:47:43,480
a kind of internet
stuff which

1155
00:47:43,480 --> 00:47:45,580
is enormously
recreative process

1156
00:47:45,580 --> 00:47:46,870
that can use.

1157
00:47:46,870 --> 00:47:48,954
Websites are there
and they created,

1158
00:47:48,954 --> 00:47:50,499
recreated capitalism
over there.

1159
00:47:50,499 --> 00:47:52,120
It's just like
the 19 sixties

1160
00:47:52,120 --> 00:47:53,410
on its CPU time of

1161
00:47:53,410 --> 00:47:57,010
learner for everybody's
buy-in to capitalism.

1162
00:47:57,010 --> 00:47:58,149
Can China still

1163
00:47:58,149 --> 00:48:00,520
communists. First
the government.

1164
00:48:00,520 --> 00:48:03,129
So that's where analogical,

1165
00:48:03,129 --> 00:48:05,140
I swear I see analogical
reasoning thing

1166
00:48:05,140 --> 00:48:06,640
out right now let me shine.

1167
00:48:06,640 --> 00:48:09,309
It does not trim

1168
00:48:09,309 --> 00:48:11,995
another example
with medical care

1169
00:48:11,995 --> 00:48:15,505
to the US versus

1170
00:48:15,505 --> 00:48:19,090
a solution that's
tied up with a bow,

1171
00:48:19,090 --> 00:48:22,465
Europe for how to do it.

1172
00:48:22,465 --> 00:48:26,529
And that's why they're
inertial problem.

1173
00:48:26,529 --> 00:48:29,404
How do you overcome
that inertia to Lou,

1174
00:48:29,404 --> 00:48:33,069
system, to a
readymade solution?

1175
00:48:33,069 --> 00:48:37,370
Right? And you
backtrack crisis.

1176
00:48:37,710 --> 00:48:41,750
I'm sorry. The leverage
points you're right.

1177
00:48:43,050 --> 00:48:46,419
Like knows. And I

1178
00:48:46,419 --> 00:48:50,380
guess the idea here
that your time at

1179
00:48:50,380 --> 00:48:53,125
the most effective
leverage points are

1180
00:48:53,125 --> 00:48:55,029
that the knowledge
that there is

1181
00:48:55,029 --> 00:48:56,950
a paradigm shift
that's possible,

1182
00:48:56,950 --> 00:48:58,300
or the ability to change

1183
00:48:58,300 --> 00:48:59,799
the way you think
about something.

1184
00:48:59,799 --> 00:49:01,120
And then among the least

1185
00:49:01,120 --> 00:49:03,145
effective leverage
points are

1186
00:49:03,145 --> 00:49:05,409
tinkering around metrics or

1187
00:49:05,409 --> 00:49:07,390
rules or, or reconnections.

1188
00:49:07,390 --> 00:49:08,739
And so I guess what
I'd say is, you

1189
00:49:08,739 --> 00:49:10,060
know, again,

1190
00:49:10,060 --> 00:49:12,699
just coming to the
policy background,

1191
00:49:12,699 --> 00:49:13,870
we think of these
problems is

1192
00:49:13,870 --> 00:49:15,249
things that we
need to solve by

1193
00:49:15,249 --> 00:49:18,070
either making rules
for tweaking rules,

1194
00:49:18,070 --> 00:49:19,780
but nice things that we can

1195
00:49:19,780 --> 00:49:22,060
solve as easily
through this kind

1196
00:49:22,060 --> 00:49:24,970
of change in values

1197
00:49:24,970 --> 00:49:26,815
are changing in paradigms.

1198
00:49:26,815 --> 00:49:28,689
And again, I would say, is

1199
00:49:28,689 --> 00:49:31,689
link benign
integrated model is,

1200
00:49:31,689 --> 00:49:33,895
is showing us how
that, you know,

1201
00:49:33,895 --> 00:49:35,949
why is it that a
paradigm shift can

1202
00:49:35,949 --> 00:49:38,919
potentially be the
most effective?

1203
00:49:38,919 --> 00:49:41,335
Because you know that,
you know, again,

1204
00:49:41,335 --> 00:49:42,609
one individual changing

1205
00:49:42,609 --> 00:49:43,780
maybe isn't that
big of a deal.

1206
00:49:43,780 --> 00:49:45,580
But if all of those
individuals are changing,

1207
00:49:45,580 --> 00:49:46,929
that is clearly having

1208
00:49:46,929 --> 00:49:48,370
an organizational
impact and

1209
00:49:48,370 --> 00:49:50,560
social attack working its

1210
00:49:50,560 --> 00:49:54,320
way back up the ladder.

1211
00:49:54,390 --> 00:49:57,039
I just want to point out,

1212
00:49:57,039 --> 00:49:58,180
we describe

1213
00:49:58,180 --> 00:49:59,950
these relationships
and turns that

1214
00:49:59,950 --> 00:50:02,349
recursive constraints
and affordances

1215
00:50:02,349 --> 00:50:04,120
and identity and viability.

1216
00:50:04,120 --> 00:50:06,309
So the differences between

1217
00:50:06,309 --> 00:50:07,689
a leverage point and afford

1218
00:50:07,689 --> 00:50:08,979
and an affordance is

1219
00:50:08,979 --> 00:50:11,469
that a leverage point can

1220
00:50:11,469 --> 00:50:14,755
exist independently of
the, the actor, right?

1221
00:50:14,755 --> 00:50:16,270
Whereas an
affordance is always

1222
00:50:16,270 --> 00:50:18,070
tied to, to an actor.

1223
00:50:18,070 --> 00:50:19,434
And so I don't, I don't,

1224
00:50:19,434 --> 00:50:22,209
I personally don't
think in terms

1225
00:50:22,209 --> 00:50:24,699
of leverage points that

1226
00:50:24,699 --> 00:50:25,989
are out there in the world,

1227
00:50:25,989 --> 00:50:28,000
somehow divorce from, from

1228
00:50:28,000 --> 00:50:30,549
the actors who may
meeting date with that.

1229
00:50:30,549 --> 00:50:32,005
And so, and so that's,

1230
00:50:32,005 --> 00:50:32,709
that's why we use

1231
00:50:32,709 --> 00:50:34,300
this language of
affordances and

1232
00:50:34,300 --> 00:50:37,730
constraints rather
than leverage points.

1233
00:50:37,920 --> 00:50:41,469
Well, it's, it's
ten tensiometers is

1234
00:50:41,469 --> 00:50:44,469
not lonely when seminar
and so less, Hey,

1235
00:50:44,469 --> 00:50:51,774
Howard for and the way

1236
00:50:51,774 --> 00:50:54,009
I'll keep talking but gives

1237
00:50:54,009 --> 00:50:55,344
us a chance to say that.

1238
00:50:55,344 --> 00:51:01,330
You want to go
back to Joe come.

1239
00:51:01,330 --> 00:51:04,644
Yeah. Which is about again,

1240
00:51:04,644 --> 00:51:06,459
how people can see with

1241
00:51:06,459 --> 00:51:09,714
the one of the slides
that I really like,

1242
00:51:09,714 --> 00:51:13,639
because that corresponds to

1243
00:51:17,010 --> 00:51:20,215
that hierarchy of identity.

1244
00:51:20,215 --> 00:51:24,369
And I think maybe

1245
00:51:24,369 --> 00:51:28,120
a lot of the climate
change problem.

1246
00:51:28,120 --> 00:51:32,260
Problems boil down to

1247
00:51:32,260 --> 00:51:36,010
or could be thought
of in terms of where,

1248
00:51:36,010 --> 00:51:38,575
what identities
people have.

1249
00:51:38,575 --> 00:51:42,130
And the good guys, us,

1250
00:51:42,130 --> 00:51:44,770
of course, our identity

1251
00:51:44,770 --> 00:51:46,780
based at the
entire spectrum.

1252
00:51:46,780 --> 00:51:48,909
The bad guys, they're stuck

1253
00:51:48,909 --> 00:51:52,270
in just the lowest
level of identity.

1254
00:51:52,270 --> 00:51:55,150
So so the question
then becomes,

1255
00:51:55,150 --> 00:51:56,800
how do you get
them to stretch?

1256
00:51:56,800 --> 00:52:01,539
Uh-huh. Uh-huh. Yeah.
Yeah. I'm so sorry.

1257
00:52:01,539 --> 00:52:03,010
I served with but this

1258
00:52:03,010 --> 00:52:06,114
takes what does
the context,

1259
00:52:06,114 --> 00:52:07,479
the person they
know it and most of

1260
00:52:07,479 --> 00:52:09,519
the person that woman
or contracts, Right?

1261
00:52:09,519 --> 00:52:14,079
Right. So that is re

1262
00:52:14,079 --> 00:52:17,710
Eisen's reflexive
second-order reflexivity

1263
00:52:17,710 --> 00:52:20,710
being able to see
oneself in context.

1264
00:52:20,710 --> 00:52:24,610
Yeah. How does one do that?

1265
00:52:24,610 --> 00:52:27,685
Hedger? Epistemic
BellKor's.

1266
00:52:27,685 --> 00:52:29,994
And so how, how do

1267
00:52:29,994 --> 00:52:33,145
individual agents adopt or

1268
00:52:33,145 --> 00:52:35,005
fail to adopt the UV?

1269
00:52:35,005 --> 00:52:37,930
And we're abroad,
that will end.

1270
00:52:37,930 --> 00:52:40,299
So basically it
comes down to

1271
00:52:40,299 --> 00:52:43,904
the idea that
different beliefs,

1272
00:52:43,904 --> 00:52:46,734
different parish,

1273
00:52:46,734 --> 00:52:48,729
subtract the
original type of

1274
00:52:48,729 --> 00:52:50,544
a shallow or deep beliefs.

1275
00:52:50,544 --> 00:52:54,390
And so shout like

1276
00:52:54,390 --> 00:52:55,769
a fact or a factoid or

1277
00:52:55,769 --> 00:52:58,110
some transient hand
piece of information,

1278
00:52:58,110 --> 00:52:59,219
say, well, there's not

1279
00:52:59,219 --> 00:53:00,794
very much cost
of leaving it.

1280
00:53:00,794 --> 00:53:02,249
You tell me that
there's a seminar

1281
00:53:02,249 --> 00:53:04,110
every Friday and I'm
like, well, okay.

1282
00:53:04,110 --> 00:53:05,939
However there is
a, there is a,

1283
00:53:05,939 --> 00:53:07,349
it doesn't really
matter either way.

1284
00:53:07,349 --> 00:53:08,910
We have very little
paddle and accepting

1285
00:53:08,910 --> 00:53:12,494
that because it just
doesn't mean very much.

1286
00:53:12,494 --> 00:53:14,909
But you know, as you get
to the concepts that

1287
00:53:14,909 --> 00:53:17,460
are constructed from
other concepts,

1288
00:53:17,460 --> 00:53:20,220
they become deeper and
deeper and they are

1289
00:53:20,220 --> 00:53:21,390
more tied in tests

1290
00:53:21,390 --> 00:53:23,175
or everything
else, you know.

1291
00:53:23,175 --> 00:53:24,629
And so then it becomes

1292
00:53:24,629 --> 00:53:26,220
difficult to challenge
those beliefs

1293
00:53:26,220 --> 00:53:29,520
because challenged
them means

1294
00:53:29,520 --> 00:53:31,079
rewriting so much of

1295
00:53:31,079 --> 00:53:33,405
all of everything, leave.

1296
00:53:33,405 --> 00:53:35,524
And so then it's
just this question.

1297
00:53:35,524 --> 00:53:37,585
It basically says,

1298
00:53:37,585 --> 00:53:39,025
if you want to change
somebody's mind,

1299
00:53:39,025 --> 00:53:40,059
there's no sharp happened

1300
00:53:40,059 --> 00:53:41,304
to spend a long time

1301
00:53:41,304 --> 00:53:44,350
and basically building
up the components,

1302
00:53:44,350 --> 00:53:46,179
playing Western
minds together into

1303
00:53:46,179 --> 00:53:48,459
larger structures and in

1304
00:53:48,459 --> 00:53:50,604
replacing their
belief system Bureau.

1305
00:53:50,604 --> 00:53:51,669
And so there's no, there is

1306
00:53:51,669 --> 00:53:55,585
no shortcut, basically
educating person.

1307
00:53:55,585 --> 00:53:56,740
And there's a
lot of evidence

1308
00:53:56,740 --> 00:53:58,779
that even science

1309
00:53:58,779 --> 00:54:00,819
major new
paradigms required

1310
00:54:00,819 --> 00:54:02,799
20 years to the acceptance

1311
00:54:02,799 --> 00:54:04,254
of ab to the old Garza.

1312
00:54:04,254 --> 00:54:10,060
Yeah. Yeah. Generational
replacement problem

1313
00:54:10,060 --> 00:54:11,739
for which there isn't

1314
00:54:11,739 --> 00:54:15,819
the time to make this
re-education possible.

1315
00:54:15,819 --> 00:54:19,480
We're happy. Older
paradigm, DIA, Well,

1316
00:54:19,480 --> 00:54:21,264
one of the things that the

1317
00:54:21,264 --> 00:54:24,774
smartphone that
you have any idea,

1318
00:54:24,774 --> 00:54:29,695
cuz so I system
to be adopted,

1319
00:54:29,695 --> 00:54:33,219
those 0's 071st,
many hobbies.

1320
00:54:33,219 --> 00:54:35,440
So by 200 and my,

1321
00:54:35,440 --> 00:54:37,419
before you have very
many people doing it.

1322
00:54:37,419 --> 00:54:39,849
If you had a vector
u at people,

1323
00:54:39,849 --> 00:54:43,599
I'm with big US based PDS.

1324
00:54:43,599 --> 00:54:45,519
Oh, not at mid seventies.

1325
00:54:45,519 --> 00:54:50,094
But I was working
with video lab in

1326
00:54:50,094 --> 00:54:54,279
the nineties with
pad computers

1327
00:54:54,279 --> 00:54:55,720
that when writers but it

1328
00:54:55,720 --> 00:54:56,709
wasn't the opponent was

1329
00:54:56,709 --> 00:54:57,670
in everybody's pocket.

1330
00:54:57,670 --> 00:55:00,190
Yeah, no, that was
a breakthrough.

1331
00:55:00,190 --> 00:55:03,130
Actually. And we know
at the university level

1332
00:55:03,130 --> 00:55:08,440
you need your IT

1333
00:55:08,440 --> 00:55:10,510
permitted. They don't
want to do better.

1334
00:55:10,510 --> 00:55:10,930
Yeah.

1335
00:55:10,930 --> 00:55:11,559
I don't have

1336
00:55:11,559 --> 00:55:13,240
a different conception
of myself and

1337
00:55:13,240 --> 00:55:14,590
my role in society is

1338
00:55:14,590 --> 00:55:17,164
that smartphones
couldn't pill.

1339
00:55:17,164 --> 00:55:20,960
We'd get back to
your question.

1340
00:55:21,000 --> 00:55:22,840
Was pointing back at you

1341
00:55:22,840 --> 00:55:23,725
and I'm going to
point it out, but,

1342
00:55:23,725 --> 00:55:28,044
you know, I'm
still curious.

1343
00:55:28,044 --> 00:55:30,219
As a designer, how

1344
00:55:30,219 --> 00:55:32,424
do you use this to
solve a problem?

1345
00:55:32,424 --> 00:55:35,259
What is your, yeah, yeah.

1346
00:55:35,259 --> 00:55:39,670
So here's here's an
example of that, right?

1347
00:55:39,670 --> 00:55:41,679
And so as a, as
I mentioned,

1348
00:55:41,679 --> 00:55:45,805
we developed this
definition of

1349
00:55:45,805 --> 00:55:50,710
social tractor could
constellation of logics.

1350
00:55:50,710 --> 00:55:52,524
Let me, let me
see if I've got,

1351
00:55:52,524 --> 00:55:55,269
probably got something
more about this.

1352
00:55:55,269 --> 00:55:57,864
Okay, so here, here's this.

1353
00:55:57,864 --> 00:55:59,349
As a designer appears,

1354
00:55:59,349 --> 00:56:01,269
this design canvass
aren't familiar with

1355
00:56:01,269 --> 00:56:03,835
the idea of a design
canvass worksheet,

1356
00:56:03,835 --> 00:56:05,529
Business Model
Canvas, right?

1357
00:56:05,529 --> 00:56:08,020
Right. And so
basically this canvas

1358
00:56:08,020 --> 00:56:10,795
embeds this framework
here, right?

1359
00:56:10,795 --> 00:56:12,234
Situation a domain on

1360
00:56:12,234 --> 00:56:13,659
the experience
football system,

1361
00:56:13,659 --> 00:56:14,770
a set of situation of

1362
00:56:14,770 --> 00:56:17,290
relationships that
serve or proceed,

1363
00:56:17,290 --> 00:56:18,760
but certainly the
function or purpose

1364
00:56:18,760 --> 00:56:21,280
regime and instance
of the focal system,

1365
00:56:21,280 --> 00:56:23,529
particular way of
delivering one of

1366
00:56:23,529 --> 00:56:26,620
its purpose and the
logics, urgings, culture,

1367
00:56:26,620 --> 00:56:27,730
cultural institution,

1368
00:56:27,730 --> 00:56:28,900
material characteristic,

1369
00:56:28,900 --> 00:56:30,279
the fat factors that

1370
00:56:30,279 --> 00:56:32,829
perpetuate a regime
by attracting and

1371
00:56:32,829 --> 00:56:34,509
stabilizing individual

1372
00:56:34,509 --> 00:56:36,490
and organizational
participation,

1373
00:56:36,490 --> 00:56:36,939
right?

1374
00:56:36,939 --> 00:56:41,829
And so It's important
to note that the

1375
00:56:41,829 --> 00:56:44,110
walk in the way
these logics

1376
00:56:44,110 --> 00:56:46,945
are described there
not reified, alright?

1377
00:56:46,945 --> 00:56:48,400
The causal efficacy of

1378
00:56:48,400 --> 00:56:49,974
each of the objects depends

1379
00:56:49,974 --> 00:56:54,109
on individual and
organizational affiliation.

1380
00:56:54,480 --> 00:56:57,520
So the language embeds

1381
00:56:57,520 --> 00:56:59,754
the kind of path
dependent or inertia.

1382
00:56:59,754 --> 00:57:04,435
And so this is
kind of another,

1383
00:57:04,435 --> 00:57:06,549
this is, this comes
from this list.

1384
00:57:06,549 --> 00:57:08,784
Other paper that I
didn't talk about today,

1385
00:57:08,784 --> 00:57:10,495
which was design,

1386
00:57:10,495 --> 00:57:14,449
design context with
crystal growth.

1387
00:57:16,020 --> 00:57:20,125
And it's so simple
to simplify

1388
00:57:20,125 --> 00:57:21,999
analytical tool for talking

1389
00:57:21,999 --> 00:57:26,304
about systemic,
systemic change, right?

1390
00:57:26,304 --> 00:57:30,429
In, in developing this
idea of a logics,

1391
00:57:30,429 --> 00:57:31,929
what basically what we

1392
00:57:31,929 --> 00:57:33,820
wanted to do was
to get beyond,

1393
00:57:33,820 --> 00:57:36,024
to get beyond
just structure,

1394
00:57:36,024 --> 00:57:37,359
this word structure, right?

1395
00:57:37,359 --> 00:57:39,234
And so we've got Donald,

1396
00:57:39,234 --> 00:57:41,799
Donald churn accepted
early seventies,

1397
00:57:41,799 --> 00:57:43,794
talk to you about social
systems in terms of

1398
00:57:43,794 --> 00:57:45,519
structure actually
beforehand that

1399
00:57:45,519 --> 00:57:47,095
he didn't exactly tell.

1400
00:57:47,095 --> 00:57:50,380
Hum and many others,
Margaret Archer.

1401
00:57:50,380 --> 00:57:52,135
And so I've been
looking for

1402
00:57:52,135 --> 00:57:54,355
what does the typology of,

1403
00:57:54,355 --> 00:57:56,439
of ways in which people

1404
00:57:56,439 --> 00:57:58,780
have characterized
social, social structure.

1405
00:57:58,780 --> 00:57:59,890
And here are a few

1406
00:57:59,890 --> 00:58:01,629
that have been
interesting to

1407
00:58:01,629 --> 00:58:03,880
me who take the
word projects

1408
00:58:03,880 --> 00:58:06,805
from this one by pitcher,
Patricia Thornton,

1409
00:58:06,805 --> 00:58:10,344
institutional objects,
Nicholas movement,

1410
00:58:10,344 --> 00:58:12,369
Bruno Latour
also also have,

1411
00:58:12,369 --> 00:58:14,665
have ways of, of kind of

1412
00:58:14,665 --> 00:58:16,569
analyzing dissecting

1413
00:58:16,569 --> 00:58:18,175
structure, social
structure.

1414
00:58:18,175 --> 00:58:20,574
And so the idea being that

1415
00:58:20,574 --> 00:58:23,485
if these are the
variables that attract,

1416
00:58:23,485 --> 00:58:24,595
attract,

1417
00:58:24,595 --> 00:58:26,964
individual organizational
participation,

1418
00:58:26,964 --> 00:58:28,389
then we can define

1419
00:58:28,389 --> 00:58:31,339
a regime shift by
defining a shift.

1420
00:58:35,850 --> 00:58:44,424
Okay? So a simple, too,
overly simplified.

1421
00:58:44,424 --> 00:58:45,974
But anyway, that's

1422
00:58:45,974 --> 00:58:47,564
just like that
I've been using.

1423
00:58:47,564 --> 00:58:51,909
So we take this to do yes.

1424
00:58:51,909 --> 00:58:54,355
Working. Yes. Just all
problems with that.

1425
00:58:54,355 --> 00:58:58,030
And this is a tool
to organize this is

1426
00:58:58,030 --> 00:58:59,800
a tool to organize
a workshop

1427
00:58:59,800 --> 00:59:03,140
around systemic
social change.

1428
00:59:03,570 --> 00:59:06,190
We're trying to
get to the point

1429
00:59:06,190 --> 00:59:08,230
where they don't need
to know anything.

1430
00:59:08,230 --> 00:59:11,239
Personally snare your or

1431
00:59:11,880 --> 00:59:17,150
be no models and
fragrance on its face.

1432
00:59:20,370 --> 00:59:22,734
I think you know
that I teach

1433
00:59:22,734 --> 00:59:24,399
of course occasionally

1434
00:59:24,399 --> 00:59:27,819
on system sustainability

1435
00:59:27,819 --> 00:59:29,754
and organizational
resilience.

1436
00:59:29,754 --> 00:59:31,360
Everything you said here,

1437
00:59:31,360 --> 00:59:33,220
and these are all
things that I want

1438
00:59:33,220 --> 00:59:35,590
to introduce my
students do.

1439
00:59:35,590 --> 00:59:37,045
So thank you for

1440
00:59:37,045 --> 00:59:40,150
providing kind
of new thinking.

1441
00:59:40,150 --> 00:59:42,384
And I think the
pragmatic side,

1442
00:59:42,384 --> 00:59:44,890
it's really
important to think

1443
00:59:44,890 --> 00:59:48,235
and dream it three,
to get action.

1444
00:59:48,235 --> 00:59:51,219
So I appreciate you want
it by thinking about

1445
00:59:51,219 --> 00:59:52,570
how to take us out into

1446
00:59:52,570 --> 00:59:54,804
action in the
past that okay.

1447
00:59:54,804 --> 00:59:57,235
It's downloadable at that

1448
00:59:57,235 --> 00:59:59,229
at that website that
they're regime shifts.

1449
00:59:59,229 --> 01:00:01,315
Cua canvas not work.

1450
01:00:01,315 --> 01:00:04,870
So I am going to wrap
up the recording.

1451
01:00:04,870 --> 01:00:08,349
Now we actually have
that gives room for yup,

1452
01:00:08,349 --> 01:00:09,909
pretty soon we had a
little bit of time what

1453
01:00:09,909 --> 01:00:10,269
we're going to have

1454
01:00:10,269 --> 01:00:11,470
a normal copy sound source

1455
01:00:11,470 --> 01:00:12,910
that you're not hanging out

1456
01:00:12,910 --> 01:00:15,709
quite as long as
we sometimes do.