1
00:00:01,310 --> 00:00:04,125
Day as well as
other amendments

2
00:00:04,125 --> 00:00:06,970
to goals, 3.4.

3
00:00:07,640 --> 00:00:11,379
Actually to the
goals and the rules.

4
00:00:13,670 --> 00:00:16,239
Let's talk a little
bit about procedure.

5
00:00:16,239 --> 00:00:17,639
I just note that Art

6
00:00:17,639 --> 00:00:20,069
should be here
momentarily.

7
00:00:20,069 --> 00:00:21,869
Pam called and said
that she was

8
00:00:21,869 --> 00:00:23,249
delayed slightly
but should

9
00:00:23,249 --> 00:00:24,390
be here and
Hector is here,

10
00:00:24,390 --> 00:00:27,075
but had to go out to
take care of something.

11
00:00:27,075 --> 00:00:28,739
So we should have

12
00:00:28,739 --> 00:00:31,210
a full commission
here very shortly.

13
00:00:31,810 --> 00:00:34,069
Let's talk about
procedure as

14
00:00:34,069 --> 00:00:35,600
to how we want to
go through this.

15
00:00:35,600 --> 00:00:41,629
There are let me

16
00:00:41,629 --> 00:00:42,740
suggest something
and see if

17
00:00:42,740 --> 00:00:44,974
it works for everybody.

18
00:00:44,974 --> 00:00:47,794
What if we went
through a tab two,

19
00:00:47,794 --> 00:00:53,100
which is the staff's
list of issues

20
00:00:53,200 --> 00:00:57,319
and took up those

21
00:00:57,319 --> 00:00:59,509
take up forest lands first

22
00:00:59,509 --> 00:01:01,219
and then go into egg,

23
00:01:01,219 --> 00:01:04,249
leaving aside
marginal lands issue

24
00:01:04,249 --> 00:01:06,199
until the afternoon and

25
00:01:06,199 --> 00:01:07,549
leaving early or
late morning,

26
00:01:07,549 --> 00:01:09,364
Let's say, let's
see how we do.

27
00:01:09,364 --> 00:01:12,319
And leaving aside
the dwelling,

28
00:01:12,319 --> 00:01:14,120
farm dwelling thing until

29
00:01:14,120 --> 00:01:17,840
began taking up all the
other bonding here.

30
00:01:17,840 --> 00:01:19,279
Now, whether that makes

31
00:01:19,279 --> 00:01:21,860
a difference to taking up

32
00:01:21,860 --> 00:01:27,049
these issues in that order

33
00:01:27,049 --> 00:01:28,369
or what's

34
00:01:28,369 --> 00:01:30,689
your feeling about
what you'd like to do?

35
00:01:31,180 --> 00:01:32,449
Mr.

36
00:01:32,449 --> 00:01:33,710
Chair, I don't
know whether we

37
00:01:33,710 --> 00:01:35,300
want to be sensitive
to the audience

38
00:01:35,300 --> 00:01:37,340
to see if there's
anybody here who has

39
00:01:37,340 --> 00:01:41,540
a particular need to
depart a certain point

40
00:01:41,540 --> 00:01:42,800
and whether we
want to consider

41
00:01:42,800 --> 00:01:44,270
taking those issues
or whether there's

42
00:01:44,270 --> 00:01:47,660
such a logical flow
for the issues

43
00:01:47,660 --> 00:01:49,730
that we should essentially

44
00:01:49,730 --> 00:01:50,720
require the audience to

45
00:01:50,720 --> 00:01:51,920
conform to our schedule.

46
00:01:51,920 --> 00:01:54,180
I Just a question.

47
00:01:55,900 --> 00:01:57,590
Is there anybody that

48
00:01:57,590 --> 00:01:59,270
has a particular schedule

49
00:01:59,270 --> 00:02:01,429
that other than like

50
00:02:01,429 --> 00:02:02,240
everybody would like to be

51
00:02:02,240 --> 00:02:04,260
home as soon as possible.

52
00:02:06,160 --> 00:02:08,600
Okay.

53
00:02:08,600 --> 00:02:12,059
So coming back
to the question,

54
00:02:12,940 --> 00:02:15,620
should we try and
get written to

55
00:02:15,620 --> 00:02:16,700
the side as many
of the ones

56
00:02:16,700 --> 00:02:17,780
that appear on
the surface,

57
00:02:17,780 --> 00:02:19,370
at least to be the
easier ones and

58
00:02:19,370 --> 00:02:21,500
then pick up the harder
ones and then we'll

59
00:02:21,500 --> 00:02:26,849
know how much time
we've got. Okay.

60
00:02:30,040 --> 00:02:32,794
Let's start with
a forest land.

61
00:02:32,794 --> 00:02:35,000
Page, one of

62
00:02:35,000 --> 00:02:37,249
the staff report
dated February 11th.

63
00:02:37,249 --> 00:02:38,824
For those of you
in the audience.

64
00:02:38,824 --> 00:02:40,220
Now, I just might
want to note

65
00:02:40,220 --> 00:02:42,709
that this document,

66
00:02:42,709 --> 00:02:45,094
where it refers
to page numbers,

67
00:02:45,094 --> 00:02:50,479
refers to the February
4th January 4th drafts

68
00:02:50,479 --> 00:02:52,954
of the two rules.

69
00:02:52,954 --> 00:02:55,880
But we are actually
working in

70
00:02:55,880 --> 00:02:56,720
terms of what we're gonna

71
00:02:56,720 --> 00:02:58,909
be bringing to adoption,

72
00:02:58,909 --> 00:03:02,779
the February 17th version.

73
00:03:02,779 --> 00:03:04,970
So as we go through,
the staff can help

74
00:03:04,970 --> 00:03:07,474
us work back and forth
between those things.

75
00:03:07,474 --> 00:03:09,170
And the audience should
be aware that we're

76
00:03:09,170 --> 00:03:11,449
going to call out
page numbers,

77
00:03:11,449 --> 00:03:13,310
will try to refer to

78
00:03:13,310 --> 00:03:15,500
which date had one
we're working from so

79
00:03:15,500 --> 00:03:18,740
that you know
which page 28 of

80
00:03:18,740 --> 00:03:23,030
which document
you wanted to

81
00:03:23,030 --> 00:03:24,980
start in summarise
item one on

82
00:03:24,980 --> 00:03:27,860
forest land and
we'll discuss it.

83
00:03:27,860 --> 00:03:28,789
Okay.

84
00:03:28,789 --> 00:03:31,580
That's the stocking
requirements issue

85
00:03:31,580 --> 00:03:32,960
was the first one you see

86
00:03:32,960 --> 00:03:34,774
there under forest lands.

87
00:03:34,774 --> 00:03:37,130
They'll Blanton and
Jim Johnson are

88
00:03:37,130 --> 00:03:39,620
here to help walk
you through it.

89
00:03:39,620 --> 00:03:42,559
If you'll recall, you've
had some discussion

90
00:03:42,559 --> 00:03:45,004
about the stocking
requirement

91
00:03:45,004 --> 00:03:47,270
which flows from 36, 61,

92
00:03:47,270 --> 00:03:49,639
when you had your
last word session,

93
00:03:49,639 --> 00:03:53,689
you gave us direction
at that time that among

94
00:03:53,689 --> 00:03:55,640
the options that
were described in

95
00:03:55,640 --> 00:03:58,189
the issues paper for
the last word session.

96
00:03:58,189 --> 00:04:00,349
The option that
you like best

97
00:04:00,349 --> 00:04:03,710
was the one that
would require

98
00:04:03,710 --> 00:04:06,200
some some planting of

99
00:04:06,200 --> 00:04:08,029
trees prior

100
00:04:08,029 --> 00:04:10,369
to the issuance of
a building permit.

101
00:04:10,369 --> 00:04:14,240
So that's your decision
and I would turn to

102
00:04:14,240 --> 00:04:16,460
ideal Blanton to walk

103
00:04:16,460 --> 00:04:18,749
you through the
rest of the issue.

104
00:04:19,420 --> 00:04:22,895
Mr. Chairman, members
of the Commission,

105
00:04:22,895 --> 00:04:25,520
for purposes of those
who are following

106
00:04:25,520 --> 00:04:28,280
the February 17th draft,

107
00:04:28,280 --> 00:04:30,769
that language
appears on page

108
00:04:30,769 --> 00:04:34,340
30 of that draft.

109
00:04:34,340 --> 00:04:37,160
And basically what we have

110
00:04:37,160 --> 00:04:40,159
done is we've gone
with some language

111
00:04:40,159 --> 00:04:42,544
that we think carries out

112
00:04:42,544 --> 00:04:46,640
your intent that the
approval of dwelling

113
00:04:46,640 --> 00:04:48,424
requires the
owner to plant

114
00:04:48,424 --> 00:04:51,559
a sufficient number of
trees on the track to

115
00:04:51,559 --> 00:04:53,150
demonstrate that the tract

116
00:04:53,150 --> 00:04:55,009
is reasonably
expected to meet

117
00:04:55,009 --> 00:04:56,509
Department of
Forestry stocking

118
00:04:56,509 --> 00:04:58,070
requirements at

119
00:04:58,070 --> 00:04:59,450
the time specified in

120
00:04:59,450 --> 00:05:01,339
Department of Forestry
Administration,

121
00:05:01,339 --> 00:05:04,040
Department of Forestry
administrative rules.

122
00:05:04,040 --> 00:05:06,875
We had looked at

123
00:05:06,875 --> 00:05:09,409
trying to be more
specific and

124
00:05:09,409 --> 00:05:11,509
cover the wide range of

125
00:05:11,509 --> 00:05:14,660
situations that may
exist on forest land.

126
00:05:14,660 --> 00:05:16,369
We think this language is

127
00:05:16,369 --> 00:05:18,410
superior to
trying to do that

128
00:05:18,410 --> 00:05:20,449
because Department
of Forestry rules

129
00:05:20,449 --> 00:05:23,164
cover too many
different situations,

130
00:05:23,164 --> 00:05:25,475
different types of soils.

131
00:05:25,475 --> 00:05:27,574
You may have cases
where there is

132
00:05:27,574 --> 00:05:31,460
a partial harvest and
the requirements that

133
00:05:31,460 --> 00:05:33,109
need to be met
don't require

134
00:05:33,109 --> 00:05:35,809
a certain number of
trees to be planted

135
00:05:35,809 --> 00:05:37,339
because they're
already existing

136
00:05:37,339 --> 00:05:38,480
trees that have grown

137
00:05:38,480 --> 00:05:40,670
and those count towards

138
00:05:40,670 --> 00:05:43,159
meeting the ultimate
stocking requirement.

139
00:05:43,159 --> 00:05:44,210
So we've gone with

140
00:05:44,210 --> 00:05:45,694
this more general
language.

141
00:05:45,694 --> 00:05:46,550
It certainly would be

142
00:05:46,550 --> 00:05:48,544
administered by
the counties.

143
00:05:48,544 --> 00:05:49,909
They would be looking at

144
00:05:49,909 --> 00:05:51,485
those requirements to make

145
00:05:51,485 --> 00:05:54,635
sure that when the
dwelling is approved,

146
00:05:54,635 --> 00:05:57,334
the standards are met.

147
00:05:57,334 --> 00:05:59,105
Now, there may be
some work between

148
00:05:59,105 --> 00:06:00,199
the Department of Forestry

149
00:06:00,199 --> 00:06:01,579
and the counties over

150
00:06:01,579 --> 00:06:03,649
time to try and get more

151
00:06:03,649 --> 00:06:06,470
specific in
specific cases.

152
00:06:06,470 --> 00:06:08,510
But for purposes
of these rules,

153
00:06:08,510 --> 00:06:11,719
we think this approach
is the best way to go.

154
00:06:11,719 --> 00:06:16,129
The remainder of the
section basically takes

155
00:06:16,129 --> 00:06:18,814
the requirements on
the previous draft

156
00:06:18,814 --> 00:06:21,904
and pretty much
leaves them in place.

157
00:06:21,904 --> 00:06:24,665
Trying to state
what happens

158
00:06:24,665 --> 00:06:28,459
when a tract
ultimately is being,

159
00:06:28,459 --> 00:06:29,765
ultimately meets

160
00:06:29,765 --> 00:06:33,229
the requirements
for stocking?

161
00:06:33,229 --> 00:06:35,404
And as you'll recall,

162
00:06:35,404 --> 00:06:37,444
that is measured
at year six

163
00:06:37,444 --> 00:06:40,710
after an operation
has occurred.

164
00:06:41,320 --> 00:06:45,289
The requirements for
disqualification

165
00:06:45,289 --> 00:06:47,029
from assessment
are contained

166
00:06:47,029 --> 00:06:48,560
in subsection D. Again,

167
00:06:48,560 --> 00:06:51,215
those were really in
the previous draft.

168
00:06:51,215 --> 00:06:54,664
But unless there are
further questions,

169
00:06:54,664 --> 00:06:57,080
I think it's this

170
00:06:57,080 --> 00:06:58,580
is what we've
attempted to do.

171
00:06:58,580 --> 00:07:00,830
Well, Mr. Chairman,
I think this

172
00:07:00,830 --> 00:07:03,229
carries out the intent
of what we agreed on.

173
00:07:03,229 --> 00:07:05,060
I would only ask

174
00:07:05,060 --> 00:07:07,399
has there been
a response from

175
00:07:07,399 --> 00:07:08,719
the interested parties out

176
00:07:08,719 --> 00:07:10,054
here in the time
that might be

177
00:07:10,054 --> 00:07:11,509
other than what the
language that you

178
00:07:11,509 --> 00:07:13,160
have here? I've
heard none.

179
00:07:13,160 --> 00:07:14,360
I just wondered
if you had heard

180
00:07:14,360 --> 00:07:16,535
any commissioner
Macpherson.

181
00:07:16,535 --> 00:07:18,649
I have not heard from

182
00:07:18,649 --> 00:07:23,180
anyone about these
particular requirements.

183
00:07:23,180 --> 00:07:24,815
Mr. Chair?

184
00:07:24,815 --> 00:07:25,204
Yeah.

185
00:07:25,204 --> 00:07:27,875
Dale, the timing
question on

186
00:07:27,875 --> 00:07:29,885
the phrase approval
of drilling,

187
00:07:29,885 --> 00:07:33,299
dwelling requires plant.

188
00:07:34,210 --> 00:07:36,409
Is there any discretion

189
00:07:36,409 --> 00:07:37,594
and then I guess
is my question.

190
00:07:37,594 --> 00:07:38,959
Does that is it you're

191
00:07:38,959 --> 00:07:40,729
thinking that that
requires the owner

192
00:07:40,729 --> 00:07:43,280
to plant prior to
approval or that

193
00:07:43,280 --> 00:07:44,569
approval may include are

194
00:07:44,569 --> 00:07:47,060
conditioned to plant
by some certain time.

195
00:07:47,060 --> 00:07:51,050
Taking into account
seasonal climate,

196
00:07:51,050 --> 00:07:52,129
they're seasonal changes,

197
00:07:52,129 --> 00:07:55,140
whatever, shows
docking requirements.

198
00:07:55,420 --> 00:07:59,345
The way this was
intended to work is

199
00:07:59,345 --> 00:08:01,339
the planting would occur

200
00:08:01,339 --> 00:08:03,335
subsequent to approval,

201
00:08:03,335 --> 00:08:05,060
but prior to the
construction

202
00:08:05,060 --> 00:08:07,350
or siting of the dwelling?

203
00:08:08,200 --> 00:08:10,549
Because those are two
very different dates.

204
00:08:10,549 --> 00:08:11,989
That's right. Mr. Chair?

205
00:08:11,989 --> 00:08:12,860
Yes.

206
00:08:12,860 --> 00:08:15,979
In in partial response
to Hector's question,

207
00:08:15,979 --> 00:08:17,149
have we heard from anyone

208
00:08:17,149 --> 00:08:18,380
we do have a letter on

209
00:08:18,380 --> 00:08:21,319
her desk this morning
from Craig Campbell,

210
00:08:21,319 --> 00:08:24,409
representing
the speaker and

211
00:08:24,409 --> 00:08:25,579
the share of

212
00:08:25,579 --> 00:08:28,490
the substantive committee
on the outside.

213
00:08:28,490 --> 00:08:32,659
And there are three
substantive provisions

214
00:08:32,659 --> 00:08:35,074
that were raised
and that letter.

215
00:08:35,074 --> 00:08:36,814
And the second of

216
00:08:36,814 --> 00:08:38,600
the three substantive
provisions,

217
00:08:38,600 --> 00:08:40,835
I think it's directly
on point here.

218
00:08:40,835 --> 00:08:42,650
And that would be
in the third to

219
00:08:42,650 --> 00:08:44,660
the last paragraph
and the latter.

220
00:08:44,660 --> 00:08:46,280
And it does say despite

221
00:08:46,280 --> 00:08:47,704
clear legislative intent,

222
00:08:47,704 --> 00:08:48,859
the commission has removed

223
00:08:48,859 --> 00:08:49,999
their authorization for

224
00:08:49,999 --> 00:08:51,169
temporary dwellings fell

225
00:08:51,169 --> 00:08:52,984
for a stalking occurs.

226
00:08:52,984 --> 00:08:55,714
So I guess that
is on point.

227
00:08:55,714 --> 00:08:57,949
I'd like to ask deck if

228
00:08:57,949 --> 00:09:00,664
he could if he could
respond to that.

229
00:09:00,664 --> 00:09:04,040
You have a copy
of 3661 with you.

230
00:09:04,040 --> 00:09:07,309
Do you believe
there is or is not?

231
00:09:07,309 --> 00:09:09,634
Maybe Celeste would
be the one to ask.

232
00:09:09,634 --> 00:09:12,650
Is there a provision in

233
00:09:12,650 --> 00:09:14,779
3661 that

234
00:09:14,779 --> 00:09:17,779
provides clear
legislative intent that

235
00:09:17,779 --> 00:09:19,894
the commission
and not what

236
00:09:19,894 --> 00:09:21,650
one individual says

237
00:09:21,650 --> 00:09:22,939
or what another individual

238
00:09:22,939 --> 00:09:24,994
says that may have
been involved in

239
00:09:24,994 --> 00:09:26,719
the process with

240
00:09:26,719 --> 00:09:29,614
the black and white
language in 3661,

241
00:09:29,614 --> 00:09:31,039
is there clear legislative

242
00:09:31,039 --> 00:09:32,570
intent that the commission

243
00:09:32,570 --> 00:09:34,339
provide temporary
dwellings

244
00:09:34,339 --> 00:09:36,140
file for stalking occurs?

245
00:09:36,140 --> 00:09:36,860
No, sir.

246
00:09:36,860 --> 00:09:39,019
I'm not aware of any
clearer language in

247
00:09:39,019 --> 00:09:42,260
36 61 that requires
you to maintain that.

248
00:09:42,260 --> 00:09:43,760
I think it was left

249
00:09:43,760 --> 00:09:46,429
to the Commission's
discretion.

250
00:09:46,429 --> 00:09:50,570
I don't I don't
think This letter or

251
00:09:50,570 --> 00:09:52,129
previous testimony
you've had

252
00:09:52,129 --> 00:09:52,939
on this issue has

253
00:09:52,939 --> 00:09:56,074
asserted that there's
something in 36, 61,

254
00:09:56,074 --> 00:09:59,510
I think rather they
say a number of

255
00:09:59,510 --> 00:10:02,629
legislators
understood that there

256
00:10:02,629 --> 00:10:04,069
was nothing in 36,

257
00:10:04,069 --> 00:10:06,124
61 that would affect

258
00:10:06,124 --> 00:10:07,730
previous commission
goal for

259
00:10:07,730 --> 00:10:09,710
a rule which had
provisions in

260
00:10:09,710 --> 00:10:11,240
there to authorize
temporary

261
00:10:11,240 --> 00:10:12,830
dwellings and a number of

262
00:10:12,830 --> 00:10:14,570
people had an expectation

263
00:10:14,570 --> 00:10:16,294
that that would continue.

264
00:10:16,294 --> 00:10:18,919
So there is
some discussion

265
00:10:18,919 --> 00:10:20,210
that you would find in

266
00:10:20,210 --> 00:10:21,949
the legislative
record indicating

267
00:10:21,949 --> 00:10:24,815
that nothing in 36 61,

268
00:10:24,815 --> 00:10:26,850
the new language in 36,

269
00:10:26,850 --> 00:10:28,850
61 that says you
can only have

270
00:10:28,850 --> 00:10:31,250
dwellings under
these circumstances.

271
00:10:31,250 --> 00:10:34,010
The template dwelling
dwelling and the

272
00:10:34,010 --> 00:10:36,964
large tract
dwelling is not

273
00:10:36,964 --> 00:10:41,915
intended to eliminate
the opportunity

274
00:10:41,915 --> 00:10:44,060
in the rules and
our current rules

275
00:10:44,060 --> 00:10:45,785
for temporary dwellings.

276
00:10:45,785 --> 00:10:49,280
Jimmy, commissioner,
maybe a little

277
00:10:49,280 --> 00:10:50,899
background on the
temporary dwelling

278
00:10:50,899 --> 00:10:52,670
under our current
rules in the end,

279
00:10:52,670 --> 00:10:54,979
why it isn't in
the draft rules.

280
00:10:54,979 --> 00:10:57,710
The temporary dwelling in

281
00:10:57,710 --> 00:10:58,940
the current rules is

282
00:10:58,940 --> 00:11:01,280
associated with
the dwelling to be

283
00:11:01,280 --> 00:11:04,220
necessary and
accessory to for us to

284
00:11:04,220 --> 00:11:06,185
use that is no longer

285
00:11:06,185 --> 00:11:07,160
a dwelling that may be

286
00:11:07,160 --> 00:11:08,360
approved in a forest zone.

287
00:11:08,360 --> 00:11:10,069
That is one of the
reasons that isn't there.

288
00:11:10,069 --> 00:11:12,170
The reasoning behind
the temporary dwelling

289
00:11:12,170 --> 00:11:13,520
was that one of the
requirements to

290
00:11:13,520 --> 00:11:13,760
meet

291
00:11:13,760 --> 00:11:15,544
the necessary and
accessory standard that

292
00:11:15,544 --> 00:11:17,210
the forest dwelling
was that you

293
00:11:17,210 --> 00:11:18,980
had to meet some
stocking requirements.

294
00:11:18,980 --> 00:11:20,375
If you could
not meet those,

295
00:11:20,375 --> 00:11:22,339
you could not get the
dwelling approved.

296
00:11:22,339 --> 00:11:23,299
That's where the temporary

297
00:11:23,299 --> 00:11:24,499
came in and
kinda similar to

298
00:11:24,499 --> 00:11:26,149
the recommendation
you've got from

299
00:11:26,149 --> 00:11:28,429
staff on the farm
dwelling side,

300
00:11:28,429 --> 00:11:30,679
that that type of
dwelling is no longer

301
00:11:30,679 --> 00:11:33,469
allowed in the forest
on under 36 61.

302
00:11:33,469 --> 00:11:34,999
So staff did not
believe we needed

303
00:11:34,999 --> 00:11:37,925
that temporary dwelling
in the draft rules.

304
00:11:37,925 --> 00:11:39,289
And what are the
absence that

305
00:11:39,289 --> 00:11:42,590
we had in the
issues paper from

306
00:11:42,590 --> 00:11:46,759
last time was if
you if you're

307
00:11:46,759 --> 00:11:49,010
concerned about
not issuing

308
00:11:49,010 --> 00:11:50,704
a building permit until

309
00:11:50,704 --> 00:11:52,354
after the trees
are planted.

310
00:11:52,354 --> 00:11:55,745
You could authorize a
temporary dwelling.

311
00:11:55,745 --> 00:11:58,339
And you could person
could live in

312
00:11:58,339 --> 00:12:00,290
the temporary dwelling
and plant the trees.

313
00:12:00,290 --> 00:12:01,550
And then when the
trees are planted,

314
00:12:01,550 --> 00:12:03,110
could take the
dwelling off and

315
00:12:03,110 --> 00:12:05,510
build a permanent
dwelling if you want.

316
00:12:05,510 --> 00:12:07,880
As I mentioned
a second ago,

317
00:12:07,880 --> 00:12:09,289
we had that provision in

318
00:12:09,289 --> 00:12:11,900
the rules from
1989 or 1990.

319
00:12:11,900 --> 00:12:13,444
And as I understand it,

320
00:12:13,444 --> 00:12:14,899
there was a bonding
requirement

321
00:12:14,899 --> 00:12:16,040
in a couple of
other things,

322
00:12:16,040 --> 00:12:18,530
and the county's county
planning directors

323
00:12:18,530 --> 00:12:20,584
told us that they
didn't like it.

324
00:12:20,584 --> 00:12:21,859
Nobody used. It was

325
00:12:21,859 --> 00:12:24,800
very difficult
to administer.

326
00:12:24,800 --> 00:12:26,630
But when you consider

327
00:12:26,630 --> 00:12:28,639
that option in the
last work session,

328
00:12:28,639 --> 00:12:31,265
it was not the one that
you caught your eye.

329
00:12:31,265 --> 00:12:32,929
You're instead
you directed

330
00:12:32,929 --> 00:12:34,310
us to go with
option three,

331
00:12:34,310 --> 00:12:36,139
which was conditioned the

332
00:12:36,139 --> 00:12:37,219
building permanent upon

333
00:12:37,219 --> 00:12:38,270
the planning of the trees.

334
00:12:38,270 --> 00:12:41,120
But there isn't
anything in 36,

335
00:12:41,120 --> 00:12:43,189
61 that would
prevent you from

336
00:12:43,189 --> 00:12:46,565
saying from authorizing
a temporary dwelling?

337
00:12:46,565 --> 00:12:48,934
There's also nothing in

338
00:12:48,934 --> 00:12:50,929
36 61 that would give us

339
00:12:50,929 --> 00:12:52,160
any indication of what

340
00:12:52,160 --> 00:12:54,859
the legislative intent

341
00:12:54,859 --> 00:12:56,419
was in black and white.

342
00:12:56,419 --> 00:12:58,250
Well, again, there
isn't any specific

343
00:12:58,250 --> 00:12:59,915
language directing you to

344
00:12:59,915 --> 00:13:01,789
authorize them
or prohibiting

345
00:13:01,789 --> 00:13:03,169
you from authorizing them.

346
00:13:03,169 --> 00:13:04,549
But if you read through

347
00:13:04,549 --> 00:13:06,274
the legislative
record, it is,

348
00:13:06,274 --> 00:13:07,609
you can tell clearly

349
00:13:07,609 --> 00:13:09,439
that some people
had the excellent.

350
00:13:09,439 --> 00:13:10,790
First of all, they

351
00:13:10,790 --> 00:13:12,310
wanted it to be
clear that 36,

352
00:13:12,310 --> 00:13:13,985
61 didn't prevent that.

353
00:13:13,985 --> 00:13:15,740
In spite of how
you could read

354
00:13:15,740 --> 00:13:18,754
Section four sub nine
or whatever it is,

355
00:13:18,754 --> 00:13:21,139
that some had the
expectation that

356
00:13:21,139 --> 00:13:24,030
that opportunity
would remain.

357
00:13:24,250 --> 00:13:26,539
Mr. Chairman. Yeah.

358
00:13:26,539 --> 00:13:27,769
I'd simply like to comment

359
00:13:27,769 --> 00:13:29,330
that my reading of this,

360
00:13:29,330 --> 00:13:30,140
the reason that we went

361
00:13:30,140 --> 00:13:31,339
the direction we did was

362
00:13:31,339 --> 00:13:32,570
because we didn't
really think

363
00:13:32,570 --> 00:13:33,859
we needed a
temporary dwelling.

364
00:13:33,859 --> 00:13:34,309
If we're going to

365
00:13:34,309 --> 00:13:35,824
allow the permanent
dwelling,

366
00:13:35,824 --> 00:13:37,820
that wasn't gonna
be taken off.

367
00:13:37,820 --> 00:13:39,770
The first discussion
was that there

368
00:13:39,770 --> 00:13:41,615
were going to have to
wait the five years.

369
00:13:41,615 --> 00:13:43,520
And we changed
that to say no,

370
00:13:43,520 --> 00:13:45,305
if you plan it enough
trees out there.

371
00:13:45,305 --> 00:13:46,730
Why we've given, I think,

372
00:13:46,730 --> 00:13:48,530
a significant break to

373
00:13:48,530 --> 00:13:50,930
the folks out there in
allowing them to get

374
00:13:50,930 --> 00:13:52,085
their their dwelling which

375
00:13:52,085 --> 00:13:53,420
can't be taken away based

376
00:13:53,420 --> 00:13:57,035
on the planet he not
on proving up on it.

377
00:13:57,035 --> 00:13:59,299
Missed the question I

378
00:13:59,299 --> 00:14:00,859
raised initially Dale side

379
00:14:00,859 --> 00:14:02,120
from the temporary
dwelling question

380
00:14:02,120 --> 00:14:03,995
is is at least in my mind,

381
00:14:03,995 --> 00:14:05,149
maybe a little
more practical

382
00:14:05,149 --> 00:14:06,739
and I've seen it
out in the ground.

383
00:14:06,739 --> 00:14:08,089
They show up
with a building

384
00:14:08,089 --> 00:14:09,320
permit so that
they can begin

385
00:14:09,320 --> 00:14:13,099
construction in
April, March,

386
00:14:13,099 --> 00:14:14,479
whatever the season is,
but they don't want

387
00:14:14,479 --> 00:14:15,890
to do their planning
until the fall

388
00:14:15,890 --> 00:14:17,824
because of the take is
gonna be less likely

389
00:14:17,824 --> 00:14:21,019
or more suspect,
et cetera.

390
00:14:21,019 --> 00:14:22,549
The way there's

391
00:14:22,549 --> 00:14:23,960
discretionary
approval criteria,

392
00:14:23,960 --> 00:14:25,685
as I recall the rule for

393
00:14:25,685 --> 00:14:27,050
forest dwelling approvals,

394
00:14:27,050 --> 00:14:28,190
impact based standards.

395
00:14:28,190 --> 00:14:30,035
They're gonna have two
levels of approval.

396
00:14:30,035 --> 00:14:30,560
They're gonna have

397
00:14:30,560 --> 00:14:31,880
a discretionary
land use decision,

398
00:14:31,880 --> 00:14:33,230
it seems to me in

399
00:14:33,230 --> 00:14:34,340
a sighting and then

400
00:14:34,340 --> 00:14:35,690
they're going to have
a building permit.

401
00:14:35,690 --> 00:14:37,565
And the way it reads,

402
00:14:37,565 --> 00:14:39,965
and it really are asked
us for clarity for

403
00:14:39,965 --> 00:14:41,389
clarity to
everybody the way

404
00:14:41,389 --> 00:14:42,874
it reads as approval.

405
00:14:42,874 --> 00:14:44,299
And I was only
curious which

406
00:14:44,299 --> 00:14:45,829
approval we're
talking about because

407
00:14:45,829 --> 00:14:46,910
what I could see a county

408
00:14:46,910 --> 00:14:49,055
saying is the approval
is the first one.

409
00:14:49,055 --> 00:14:51,139
We can impose a condition
there that would

410
00:14:51,139 --> 00:14:53,269
say you get your
building permit,

411
00:14:53,269 --> 00:14:54,470
but you have to
stock within

412
00:14:54,470 --> 00:14:55,549
six months to take into

413
00:14:55,549 --> 00:14:56,599
account the fact that
you want to build

414
00:14:56,599 --> 00:14:58,099
over the dry months
of the summer.

415
00:14:58,099 --> 00:14:59,659
And what I really
wondering I guess is

416
00:14:59,659 --> 00:15:01,099
whether this
language would

417
00:15:01,099 --> 00:15:02,240
allow approval of

418
00:15:02,240 --> 00:15:04,774
a building permit,
not the land use,

419
00:15:04,774 --> 00:15:06,275
call it zero to nine,

420
00:15:06,275 --> 00:15:07,880
but a building permit with

421
00:15:07,880 --> 00:15:09,440
a condition that
said stocked with

422
00:15:09,440 --> 00:15:11,150
the next month or do we
actually have to have

423
00:15:11,150 --> 00:15:11,960
the stocking in place

424
00:15:11,960 --> 00:15:13,384
before they can get
a building permit.

425
00:15:13,384 --> 00:15:14,840
Because that's gonna
be a practical

426
00:15:14,840 --> 00:15:16,100
implications for
some people on

427
00:15:16,100 --> 00:15:17,780
the ground as to
when they have to

428
00:15:17,780 --> 00:15:20,549
do the planning
and what Here.

429
00:15:21,040 --> 00:15:23,599
Commissioner
Pfeiffer, I believe

430
00:15:23,599 --> 00:15:26,735
the intent of the
commission last time

431
00:15:26,735 --> 00:15:29,510
was to require
the planting

432
00:15:29,510 --> 00:15:32,735
prior to the issuance
of the building permit.

433
00:15:32,735 --> 00:15:34,850
You have discretion,

434
00:15:34,850 --> 00:15:36,079
at least in our
discussions

435
00:15:36,079 --> 00:15:39,260
with the AG's
office and others,

436
00:15:39,260 --> 00:15:40,835
to go the other way.

437
00:15:40,835 --> 00:15:42,440
If you can use

438
00:15:42,440 --> 00:15:44,479
the term condition
of approval in

439
00:15:44,479 --> 00:15:47,330
other ways than a
condition required

440
00:15:47,330 --> 00:15:50,000
prior to the receipt of
the building permit.

441
00:15:50,000 --> 00:15:52,220
And in fact, one of
the options that

442
00:15:52,220 --> 00:15:54,604
was before you
last month was

443
00:15:54,604 --> 00:15:56,989
no planting
requirement and

444
00:15:56,989 --> 00:15:58,610
just a condition
that you meet

445
00:15:58,610 --> 00:16:00,649
the requirements
six years out,

446
00:16:00,649 --> 00:16:03,080
you get the dwelling
now in six years,

447
00:16:03,080 --> 00:16:05,195
you'd be looking
for compliance

448
00:16:05,195 --> 00:16:08,584
with the forest
practices rules.

449
00:16:08,584 --> 00:16:11,090
And then the
penalty phase,

450
00:16:11,090 --> 00:16:12,950
it's written into the
rules are written into

451
00:16:12,950 --> 00:16:14,209
other laws as
well would come

452
00:16:14,209 --> 00:16:16,145
into play at that time.

453
00:16:16,145 --> 00:16:19,805
It was our understanding
that the Commission

454
00:16:19,805 --> 00:16:21,860
thought it better to have

455
00:16:21,860 --> 00:16:23,719
the trees in the
ground first,

456
00:16:23,719 --> 00:16:28,370
and that was our intent
in drafting this.

457
00:16:28,370 --> 00:16:29,929
The approval
language in here

458
00:16:29,929 --> 00:16:31,265
is intended to be
building from it.

459
00:16:31,265 --> 00:16:34,069
Let's first ladies
call. That's correct.

460
00:16:34,069 --> 00:16:37,669
I'd like to ask
a different part

461
00:16:37,669 --> 00:16:39,890
of that section
zero to nine.

462
00:16:39,890 --> 00:16:43,684
The effect on page 28.

463
00:16:43,684 --> 00:16:46,775
This is the February
17th draft,

464
00:16:46,775 --> 00:16:54,119
line 22 of the effect
of the word way.

465
00:16:56,290 --> 00:17:01,039
That seems I think
of the word,

466
00:17:01,039 --> 00:17:02,120
the governing bodies shall

467
00:17:02,120 --> 00:17:03,769
weigh the standards.

468
00:17:03,769 --> 00:17:05,780
It almost seems
to say that they

469
00:17:05,780 --> 00:17:07,910
can decide to use
them or not use them.

470
00:17:07,910 --> 00:17:10,099
They will weigh
them. But it

471
00:17:10,099 --> 00:17:11,810
doesn't tell him what
to do with them.

472
00:17:11,810 --> 00:17:13,610
Doesn't say that they
shall comply with

473
00:17:13,610 --> 00:17:16,310
them. It says weigh them.

474
00:17:16,310 --> 00:17:18,260
So if I saw that,
I'd see that as

475
00:17:18,260 --> 00:17:20,060
that means that all 0 to

476
00:17:20,060 --> 00:17:24,660
9035 are discretionary
or optional.

477
00:17:25,690 --> 00:17:30,365
Chimp loss or
language is leftover.

478
00:17:30,365 --> 00:17:32,390
Language from the rules

479
00:17:32,390 --> 00:17:34,924
that were adopted
previously.

480
00:17:34,924 --> 00:17:36,514
Doesn't mean it was good.

481
00:17:36,514 --> 00:17:38,510
It's my understanding
that the intent

482
00:17:38,510 --> 00:17:41,704
here is that these
are citing standards.

483
00:17:41,704 --> 00:17:43,909
They are not
approval standards.

484
00:17:43,909 --> 00:17:46,805
And in administering these

485
00:17:46,805 --> 00:17:49,084
at the county level,

486
00:17:49,084 --> 00:17:51,184
there are going
to be cases

487
00:17:51,184 --> 00:17:53,480
where the standards
relative to one

488
00:17:53,480 --> 00:17:55,130
another may

489
00:17:55,130 --> 00:17:58,160
require a balancing of
different standards.

490
00:17:58,160 --> 00:17:59,240
But we're not, we're not

491
00:17:59,240 --> 00:18:00,665
telling them to balance.

492
00:18:00,665 --> 00:18:02,075
We're telling them
just to weigh

493
00:18:02,075 --> 00:18:03,875
in way is not a,

494
00:18:03,875 --> 00:18:05,959
what the right word is
not a transitive verb,

495
00:18:05,959 --> 00:18:06,919
doesn't tell you
to do anything.

496
00:18:06,919 --> 00:18:10,174
It just says way
though. It doesn't

497
00:18:10,174 --> 00:18:11,944
affirmatively tell you to

498
00:18:11,944 --> 00:18:13,159
do anything with them.

499
00:18:13,159 --> 00:18:14,899
Did you mean consider?

500
00:18:14,899 --> 00:18:17,105
Even consider is worse?

501
00:18:17,105 --> 00:18:18,949
Well, consider is clear

502
00:18:18,949 --> 00:18:21,289
and it provides
that directly to

503
00:18:21,289 --> 00:18:22,445
a local government short

504
00:18:22,445 --> 00:18:24,499
of you can't approve

505
00:18:24,499 --> 00:18:26,135
it unless you
find compliant.

506
00:18:26,135 --> 00:18:27,799
I mean, if you wanted them

507
00:18:27,799 --> 00:18:29,060
to be approval criteria,

508
00:18:29,060 --> 00:18:30,290
you would say like

509
00:18:30,290 --> 00:18:33,319
an statute
demonstration of

510
00:18:33,319 --> 00:18:35,060
compliance with
the standards.

511
00:18:35,060 --> 00:18:36,860
It says way I agree
with you, Bill.

512
00:18:36,860 --> 00:18:38,389
I'm not sure which
way it goes.

513
00:18:38,389 --> 00:18:41,990
I think it's
important that since

514
00:18:41,990 --> 00:18:43,310
this whole
stocking thing is

515
00:18:43,310 --> 00:18:45,275
in this section under way,

516
00:18:45,275 --> 00:18:48,860
it doesn't seem to
me to be I could

517
00:18:48,860 --> 00:18:53,099
take away any mandatory
at NUS of it at all.

518
00:18:54,280 --> 00:18:55,700
Chair blah.

519
00:18:55,700 --> 00:18:59,210
So perhaps the
word apply is

520
00:18:59,210 --> 00:19:01,144
is more appropriate given

521
00:19:01,144 --> 00:19:03,964
given the concern you
raised. I don t know.

522
00:19:03,964 --> 00:19:06,920
Celeste, you
have a feeling

523
00:19:06,920 --> 00:19:08,480
as I did have

524
00:19:08,480 --> 00:19:10,940
a comment on the use
of the word consider.

525
00:19:10,940 --> 00:19:12,950
Recent Luba case.

526
00:19:12,950 --> 00:19:15,214
The referees said
that consider

527
00:19:15,214 --> 00:19:16,399
means simply that they

528
00:19:16,399 --> 00:19:17,689
have to consider
the issue.

529
00:19:17,689 --> 00:19:18,560
They don't have to come

530
00:19:18,560 --> 00:19:20,240
to any actual conclusion

531
00:19:20,240 --> 00:19:22,744
on those items.

532
00:19:22,744 --> 00:19:25,910
Well, you could
say balance.

533
00:19:25,910 --> 00:19:28,220
Well, but that begs
the question again.

534
00:19:28,220 --> 00:19:28,849
I mean, the reason I

535
00:19:28,849 --> 00:19:29,929
used the word consider is

536
00:19:29,929 --> 00:19:30,949
precisely the reason

537
00:19:30,949 --> 00:19:32,014
that's coalesce
just raised.

538
00:19:32,014 --> 00:19:33,169
Which is if we want to

539
00:19:33,169 --> 00:19:34,909
send local government
the signal

540
00:19:34,909 --> 00:19:37,160
that we're not telling you

541
00:19:37,160 --> 00:19:39,530
that you can't approve
unless you bet these,

542
00:19:39,530 --> 00:19:41,165
but rather that
we want you to,

543
00:19:41,165 --> 00:19:42,859
at a minimum addressed

544
00:19:42,859 --> 00:19:44,420
them and consider them.

545
00:19:44,420 --> 00:19:46,790
We need to recognize
that that message

546
00:19:46,790 --> 00:19:47,900
and I think way could

547
00:19:47,900 --> 00:19:49,160
be read that way as well.

548
00:19:49,160 --> 00:19:50,360
The other way, That's
where I would read

549
00:19:50,360 --> 00:19:52,145
way is considered
as right,

550
00:19:52,145 --> 00:19:53,119
which means that all

551
00:19:53,119 --> 00:19:54,064
of this is discretionary.

552
00:19:54,064 --> 00:19:55,519
They can look at
them and say, Well,

553
00:19:55,519 --> 00:19:57,260
we don't like that for
the following reasons

554
00:19:57,260 --> 00:19:58,370
and they do something
else because,

555
00:19:58,370 --> 00:19:59,029
well, I would not be

556
00:19:59,029 --> 00:19:59,869
interested in with letting

557
00:19:59,869 --> 00:20:01,700
Luba interpret the
word way for us.

558
00:20:01,700 --> 00:20:02,960
So it seems to me we make

559
00:20:02,960 --> 00:20:03,740
a choice either their

560
00:20:03,740 --> 00:20:05,134
definitive
approval criteria

561
00:20:05,134 --> 00:20:06,439
or their mere
considerations,

562
00:20:06,439 --> 00:20:07,759
in which case it is,
wouldn't you just

563
00:20:07,759 --> 00:20:09,139
laid out and we had

564
00:20:09,139 --> 00:20:09,829
to say it because

565
00:20:09,829 --> 00:20:12,625
there's precedent that
we're considering.

566
00:20:12,625 --> 00:20:17,165
If I might explain
in context,

567
00:20:17,165 --> 00:20:20,045
looking at this
entire paragraph,

568
00:20:20,045 --> 00:20:22,819
the first sentence
says the following,

569
00:20:22,819 --> 00:20:24,694
citing standards
are global and

570
00:20:24,694 --> 00:20:26,689
shall apply to all
new dwellings and

571
00:20:26,689 --> 00:20:28,729
structures enforced and

572
00:20:28,729 --> 00:20:31,189
agricultural
forest zones that

573
00:20:31,189 --> 00:20:32,690
covers the issue of

574
00:20:32,690 --> 00:20:34,700
the planting requirements

575
00:20:34,700 --> 00:20:36,424
and stocking requirements.

576
00:20:36,424 --> 00:20:40,369
The last sentence is
intended to convey

577
00:20:40,369 --> 00:20:42,829
a different meaning for

578
00:20:42,829 --> 00:20:46,579
the purpose of identifying
a building site.

579
00:20:46,579 --> 00:20:50,269
It's not that you have
your choice about

580
00:20:50,269 --> 00:20:52,759
whether you apply
these standards

581
00:20:52,759 --> 00:20:55,264
are not particularly
stocking requirements.

582
00:20:55,264 --> 00:20:59,420
But it was intended
to indicate that as

583
00:20:59,420 --> 00:21:01,894
you're identifying
the building site

584
00:21:01,894 --> 00:21:03,920
on the tractor parcel?

585
00:21:03,920 --> 00:21:05,809
It is it is a process

586
00:21:05,809 --> 00:21:07,340
of weighing and balancing

587
00:21:07,340 --> 00:21:11,494
different factors.
If if e.g.

588
00:21:11,494 --> 00:21:13,639
you want to minimize
the impact of a

589
00:21:13,639 --> 00:21:16,684
dwelling on adjacent
forest operations.

590
00:21:16,684 --> 00:21:19,159
Clustering may make
more sense than

591
00:21:19,159 --> 00:21:22,594
the application
of a setback.

592
00:21:22,594 --> 00:21:24,349
Agree with that at
all? I just want to

593
00:21:24,349 --> 00:21:26,075
make sure that
we're ending up.

594
00:21:26,075 --> 00:21:28,144
If you look at
the uniform,

595
00:21:28,144 --> 00:21:30,620
if you look at 0 to
nine and you had

596
00:21:30,620 --> 00:21:31,669
a discussion about this in

597
00:21:31,669 --> 00:21:33,170
the last work session.

598
00:21:33,170 --> 00:21:35,359
The use of the
term standards

599
00:21:35,359 --> 00:21:38,060
here all the way through
it is inappropriate.

600
00:21:38,060 --> 00:21:40,789
These are not standards,
these are criteria.

601
00:21:40,789 --> 00:21:43,969
And when you talked
about it last time,

602
00:21:43,969 --> 00:21:45,290
there was a question
that was posed

603
00:21:45,290 --> 00:21:47,540
in some somebody's
comments.

604
00:21:47,540 --> 00:21:49,610
Don't don't

605
00:21:49,610 --> 00:21:51,770
counties don't
really want counties

606
00:21:51,770 --> 00:21:53,810
to have an opportunity to

607
00:21:53,810 --> 00:21:56,255
make these criteria
into standards.

608
00:21:56,255 --> 00:21:58,430
So they can move the
review and approval

609
00:21:58,430 --> 00:21:59,509
process as close to

610
00:21:59,509 --> 00:22:01,069
clear and objective
as possible.

611
00:22:01,069 --> 00:22:03,035
And we talked about
that and said Yes,

612
00:22:03,035 --> 00:22:04,070
that is what we want.

613
00:22:04,070 --> 00:22:05,870
And there's language
here that suggests

614
00:22:05,870 --> 00:22:07,879
that the use of

615
00:22:07,879 --> 00:22:10,250
the word standard really
is inappropriate.

616
00:22:10,250 --> 00:22:12,425
These are not standards,
they are criteria.

617
00:22:12,425 --> 00:22:14,450
Once you recognize
that and change

618
00:22:14,450 --> 00:22:16,850
the language from
standard criteria,

619
00:22:16,850 --> 00:22:18,890
then the sentence on lines

620
00:22:18,890 --> 00:22:21,290
22.24 makes more sense.

621
00:22:21,290 --> 00:22:23,299
Now I think maybe it
needs to be adjusted

622
00:22:23,299 --> 00:22:24,619
because what you're really

623
00:22:24,619 --> 00:22:26,314
saying to counties is,

624
00:22:26,314 --> 00:22:28,069
as you apply, if you

625
00:22:28,069 --> 00:22:30,095
choose to just take
these criteria,

626
00:22:30,095 --> 00:22:31,309
lock, stock and barrel,

627
00:22:31,309 --> 00:22:33,215
and put them into
your ordinances.

628
00:22:33,215 --> 00:22:36,049
When you apply
the criteria,

629
00:22:36,049 --> 00:22:38,240
you look for some balance.

630
00:22:38,240 --> 00:22:40,369
If you want to have

631
00:22:40,369 --> 00:22:42,904
some buildings that,
that is the stock,

632
00:22:42,904 --> 00:22:45,125
if you choose instead
to take these criteria

633
00:22:45,125 --> 00:22:48,650
and reformulate them
into standards.

634
00:22:48,650 --> 00:22:50,090
Then when you do that,

635
00:22:50,090 --> 00:22:52,159
you need to be
thinking about

636
00:22:52,159 --> 00:22:55,400
balance between the
different kinds.

637
00:22:55,400 --> 00:22:59,059
So I think to repair this,

638
00:22:59,059 --> 00:23:00,545
we really need to change

639
00:23:00,545 --> 00:23:02,749
the term standard
two criteria.

640
00:23:02,749 --> 00:23:04,564
And we may, we may want to

641
00:23:04,564 --> 00:23:07,804
reword that sentence
on lines 23, 24,

642
00:23:07,804 --> 00:23:09,289
because what you're
trying to do is

643
00:23:09,289 --> 00:23:10,910
you're trying
to accomplish

644
00:23:10,910 --> 00:23:14,029
the overall
objectives that

645
00:23:14,029 --> 00:23:16,100
the criteria in section

646
00:23:16,100 --> 00:23:18,110
o29 are trying
to accomplish.

647
00:23:18,110 --> 00:23:19,880
But what that last
sentence we mean is

648
00:23:19,880 --> 00:23:23,015
that course by identifying
the building site,

649
00:23:23,015 --> 00:23:25,580
the local government
shall consider

650
00:23:25,580 --> 00:23:28,865
the criteria in
these two sections.

651
00:23:28,865 --> 00:23:31,339
But those are
considerations, right?

652
00:23:31,339 --> 00:23:33,184
They are not bended.

653
00:23:33,184 --> 00:23:34,970
We've written up
there, but they

654
00:23:34,970 --> 00:23:36,740
can try to
formulate them into

655
00:23:36,740 --> 00:23:37,789
standards if they want

656
00:23:37,789 --> 00:23:41,539
to start giving responses,

657
00:23:41,539 --> 00:23:43,040
should that be consider

658
00:23:43,040 --> 00:23:45,020
or should it be applied?

659
00:23:45,020 --> 00:23:49,190
Item hearing points
that the intent is

660
00:23:49,190 --> 00:23:50,839
that those for purposes of

661
00:23:50,839 --> 00:23:52,760
the building site
identification,

662
00:23:52,760 --> 00:23:54,395
their mere considerations,

663
00:23:54,395 --> 00:23:57,140
which they can they

664
00:23:57,140 --> 00:23:58,370
may or may not elevate

665
00:23:58,370 --> 00:24:01,924
the standards. Is
that accurate?

666
00:24:01,924 --> 00:24:03,364
Yeah.

667
00:24:03,364 --> 00:24:05,584
Mr. Chairman. Okay.

668
00:24:05,584 --> 00:24:06,860
Can I ask what this all

669
00:24:06,860 --> 00:24:08,719
means to a farmer
that walks up to

670
00:24:08,719 --> 00:24:12,529
the desk and the
county farmers at all.

671
00:24:12,529 --> 00:24:16,010
Mr. I'm sorry.
Some farmers

672
00:24:16,010 --> 00:24:17,690
are what does what this

673
00:24:17,690 --> 00:24:19,769
discussion we're
just about there.

674
00:24:20,200 --> 00:24:22,609
I'm sitting here
between a bunch of

675
00:24:22,609 --> 00:24:24,710
attorneys and
it bothers me,

676
00:24:24,710 --> 00:24:25,310
but it wasn't not

677
00:24:25,310 --> 00:24:26,554
attorney who raised
the question.

678
00:24:26,554 --> 00:24:27,830
Remember?

679
00:24:27,830 --> 00:24:30,109
I just looked at
the word way and

680
00:24:30,109 --> 00:24:32,215
I said that doesn't
mean anything to me.

681
00:24:32,215 --> 00:24:33,980
I'm sorry, I but

682
00:24:33,980 --> 00:24:37,249
I created a
Pandora's box here.

683
00:24:37,249 --> 00:24:38,329
Well, I wanted to
make sure that we

684
00:24:38,329 --> 00:24:39,529
weren't there wasn't

685
00:24:39,529 --> 00:24:43,024
undoing everything that
happened in 29035.

686
00:24:43,024 --> 00:24:45,154
Are we are we
through this?

687
00:24:45,154 --> 00:24:47,270
I think we have

688
00:24:47,270 --> 00:24:48,710
a suggestion
for a rewording

689
00:24:48,710 --> 00:24:49,730
of the last sentence.

690
00:24:49,730 --> 00:24:53,630
Who did? It wouldn't
be just like emotion.

691
00:24:53,630 --> 00:24:57,169
I think the suggestions

692
00:24:57,169 --> 00:24:58,400
are appropriate
than I would

693
00:24:58,400 --> 00:25:02,479
move in 66006029 to

694
00:25:02,479 --> 00:25:05,435
substitute the word
criteria for standards,

695
00:25:05,435 --> 00:25:08,420
and in line 22
to substitute

696
00:25:08,420 --> 00:25:12,149
the word consider
for the word way.

697
00:25:18,070 --> 00:25:21,379
Second, discussion.

698
00:25:21,379 --> 00:25:23,300
I would probably should

699
00:25:23,300 --> 00:25:25,729
read through just
in discussion.

700
00:25:25,729 --> 00:25:28,205
And we're looking at
that first paragraph.

701
00:25:28,205 --> 00:25:29,419
I haven't looked through

702
00:25:29,419 --> 00:25:30,395
the rest of it to see

703
00:25:30,395 --> 00:25:32,960
whether criteria
should replace

704
00:25:32,960 --> 00:25:34,429
standards and all
of that language.

705
00:25:34,429 --> 00:25:35,750
Maybe we should
skim it quickly.

706
00:25:35,750 --> 00:25:37,860
Be sure that makes sense.

707
00:25:38,650 --> 00:25:41,629
Why don't you to
save you time,

708
00:25:41,629 --> 00:25:44,030
why don't we we

709
00:25:44,030 --> 00:25:47,390
asked Dale and
Jim to do that.

710
00:25:47,390 --> 00:25:47,915
All right.

711
00:25:47,915 --> 00:25:49,549
And let's come back to you

712
00:25:49,549 --> 00:25:51,109
if there's any need

713
00:25:51,109 --> 00:25:54,829
to revisit it after
that scan way.

714
00:25:54,829 --> 00:25:56,630
Yeah, they often bring
that to our attention

715
00:25:56,630 --> 00:25:57,860
and that's

716
00:25:57,860 --> 00:25:59,060
agreeable to me as

717
00:25:59,060 --> 00:26:00,589
making the motion that
we're reviewing it,

718
00:26:00,589 --> 00:26:03,170
I see standards
only one location.

719
00:26:03,170 --> 00:26:04,789
I think it'd be proper
to substitute it

720
00:26:04,789 --> 00:26:06,990
there to three places.

721
00:26:06,990 --> 00:26:08,240
We believe that would be

722
00:26:08,240 --> 00:26:10,085
an appropriate
substitution.

723
00:26:10,085 --> 00:26:13,320
Also on page 29, line 7

724
00:26:23,320 --> 00:26:28,594
s the motion.
Are you okay?

725
00:26:28,594 --> 00:26:32,884
Are you guys happy?
Los favor? Aye.

726
00:26:32,884 --> 00:26:33,800
Aye.

727
00:26:33,800 --> 00:26:37,354
All right. Was
no standing.

728
00:26:37,354 --> 00:26:40,760
Okay, It's unanimous.
Let's go back then.

729
00:26:40,760 --> 00:26:42,394
I'm sorry, diversion.

730
00:26:42,394 --> 00:26:45,409
But we're still
talking about

731
00:26:45,409 --> 00:26:49,050
the basic issue of

732
00:26:49,300 --> 00:26:52,890
rolling criteria and
what that means.

733
00:26:53,830 --> 00:26:56,420
But let's see
what we have.

734
00:26:56,420 --> 00:26:57,710
I'll simply move that.

735
00:26:57,710 --> 00:26:59,389
They staffed
language we have on

736
00:26:59,389 --> 00:27:01,760
stocking requirements
that's on page 30,

737
00:27:01,760 --> 00:27:07,019
lines 14 through
17, I guess it is.

738
00:27:07,840 --> 00:27:10,430
We go forward with
that language.

739
00:27:10,430 --> 00:27:16,770
Second discussion.

740
00:27:16,870 --> 00:27:18,849
I wasn't favor Aye.

741
00:27:18,849 --> 00:27:19,790
Aye.

742
00:27:19,790 --> 00:27:21,509
Opposed. No.

743
00:27:21,700 --> 00:27:24,230
Carries unanimously.

744
00:27:24,230 --> 00:27:26,749
It's quite an
item to them.

745
00:27:26,749 --> 00:27:29,299
And the issues paper
definition of cubic

746
00:27:29,299 --> 00:27:32,555
foot per acre and
cubic foot per track.

747
00:27:32,555 --> 00:27:35,810
There does any real
need for discussion.

748
00:27:35,810 --> 00:27:37,699
This is a question of
getting a definition.

749
00:27:37,699 --> 00:27:38,839
Has everybody had
a chance to read

750
00:27:38,839 --> 00:27:41,839
it and get it on the
table for discussion.

751
00:27:41,839 --> 00:27:43,879
I'll move the
approval of that.

752
00:27:43,879 --> 00:27:47,180
Exactly. Okay.

753
00:27:47,180 --> 00:27:50,669
Any discussion of
the definitions

754
00:27:51,640 --> 00:27:54,814
are back in O2 seven,

755
00:27:54,814 --> 00:27:58,270
page number in the
new draft as that is,

756
00:27:58,270 --> 00:28:00,125
it's somewhere
around page 14.

757
00:28:00,125 --> 00:28:01,099
Chair blas,

758
00:28:01,099 --> 00:28:03,365
are these definitions
are actually

759
00:28:03,365 --> 00:28:09,034
in section 005 on page
for page four okay.

760
00:28:09,034 --> 00:28:11,149
Of the February 17th draft

761
00:28:11,149 --> 00:28:12,859
during the
definition section.

762
00:28:12,859 --> 00:28:13,910
Okay. There it is.

763
00:28:13,910 --> 00:28:15,809
Page for him.

764
00:28:25,600 --> 00:28:27,275
Okay.

765
00:28:27,275 --> 00:28:28,474
If there's no discussion,

766
00:28:28,474 --> 00:28:29,689
all those in favor Aye.

767
00:28:29,689 --> 00:28:30,184
Aye.

768
00:28:30,184 --> 00:28:31,625
Aye. Opposed. No.

769
00:28:31,625 --> 00:28:32,329
Okay.

770
00:28:32,329 --> 00:28:33,754
Carries unanimously.

771
00:28:33,754 --> 00:28:35,479
Moving on to item three,

772
00:28:35,479 --> 00:28:38,009
which is water
availability.

773
00:28:45,040 --> 00:28:48,125
Dale, you have
any comments,

774
00:28:48,125 --> 00:28:49,670
job loss or commissioners,

775
00:28:49,670 --> 00:28:52,370
you'll recall
towards the end

776
00:28:52,370 --> 00:28:53,690
of the gold for discussion

777
00:28:53,690 --> 00:28:55,399
at your last meeting,

778
00:28:55,399 --> 00:28:57,229
I had noted that

779
00:28:57,229 --> 00:29:00,319
water resources had
provided us with some

780
00:29:00,319 --> 00:29:02,809
optional or some
additional language

781
00:29:02,809 --> 00:29:04,160
that they thought
more clearly

782
00:29:04,160 --> 00:29:08,390
reflected the way Water
Resources Program

783
00:29:08,390 --> 00:29:11,014
the Water Resources
Program worked.

784
00:29:11,014 --> 00:29:15,410
We have taken the language
from their letter,

785
00:29:15,410 --> 00:29:18,440
worked with particularly
Ron Campbell from

786
00:29:18,440 --> 00:29:20,900
water resources and would

787
00:29:20,900 --> 00:29:22,625
suggest that
the commission

788
00:29:22,625 --> 00:29:24,814
add this language.

789
00:29:24,814 --> 00:29:29,885
I would this for
the most part

790
00:29:29,885 --> 00:29:32,779
is on page 29 of

791
00:29:32,779 --> 00:29:37,865
the February 17th
draft, 29.30.

792
00:29:37,865 --> 00:29:40,685
I have had a
brief discussion

793
00:29:40,685 --> 00:29:42,260
with the Department
of Forestry,

794
00:29:42,260 --> 00:29:43,969
however, and would note

795
00:29:43,969 --> 00:29:47,240
that the reference
in this section,

796
00:29:47,240 --> 00:29:50,120
two class two streams,

797
00:29:50,120 --> 00:29:53,525
although that is correct,

798
00:29:53,525 --> 00:29:55,160
given their current rules

799
00:29:55,160 --> 00:29:57,545
is proposed for revision,

800
00:29:57,545 --> 00:30:00,185
should those
revisions be adopted,

801
00:30:00,185 --> 00:30:01,670
there would no longer be

802
00:30:01,670 --> 00:30:04,925
class two streams
identified

803
00:30:04,925 --> 00:30:07,534
in Department of
Forestry rules.

804
00:30:07,534 --> 00:30:09,995
So we have looked at this

805
00:30:09,995 --> 00:30:12,260
and I've worked
with Kevin birch.

806
00:30:12,260 --> 00:30:16,910
So the language on
lines 15.16 on page

807
00:30:16,910 --> 00:30:19,999
29 that make reference

808
00:30:19,999 --> 00:30:22,190
to surface water and

809
00:30:22,190 --> 00:30:24,844
not from a class
to stream.

810
00:30:24,844 --> 00:30:27,710
We would recommend
that there'll be

811
00:30:27,710 --> 00:30:29,554
another revision to this

812
00:30:29,554 --> 00:30:31,730
to avoid a future problem.

813
00:30:31,730 --> 00:30:34,145
Adds after the
word stream,

814
00:30:34,145 --> 00:30:37,864
the language or equivalent
classification.

815
00:30:37,864 --> 00:30:40,490
And then the
language on line 16,

816
00:30:40,490 --> 00:30:43,280
that's that continues
would say defined in

817
00:30:43,280 --> 00:30:47,645
the forest practices
change rule to rules.

818
00:30:47,645 --> 00:30:49,549
And the parenthetical
reference

819
00:30:49,549 --> 00:30:51,350
will no longer
be correct and

820
00:30:51,350 --> 00:30:53,449
we're suggesting
that be revised to

821
00:30:53,449 --> 00:30:57,485
say OER Chapter 629,

822
00:30:57,485 --> 00:30:58,940
rather than to refer to

823
00:30:58,940 --> 00:31:00,409
a specific rule provision

824
00:31:00,409 --> 00:31:02,540
that will no longer exist.

825
00:31:02,540 --> 00:31:04,189
I realize it's very

826
00:31:04,189 --> 00:31:05,524
tedious going
through this.

827
00:31:05,524 --> 00:31:07,835
I think it's a
technical correction.

828
00:31:07,835 --> 00:31:09,569
Okay.

829
00:31:10,570 --> 00:31:12,799
Commissioner should
understand that

830
00:31:12,799 --> 00:31:14,030
this language and the rule

831
00:31:14,030 --> 00:31:15,589
comes from the statute.

832
00:31:15,589 --> 00:31:17,210
The statute
makes reference

833
00:31:17,210 --> 00:31:19,549
to class 12 streams.

834
00:31:19,549 --> 00:31:21,530
So before I think there's

835
00:31:21,530 --> 00:31:24,950
changes without it being

836
00:31:24,950 --> 00:31:27,034
in the statute is
a very good idea.

837
00:31:27,034 --> 00:31:28,640
The question is, can we do

838
00:31:28,640 --> 00:31:30,710
that consistent with
the statute or do

839
00:31:30,710 --> 00:31:34,669
we simply have to suffer
with this disconnect

840
00:31:34,669 --> 00:31:36,680
after the Department
of Forestry changes

841
00:31:36,680 --> 00:31:39,755
its rules and repair it
in the next session.

842
00:31:39,755 --> 00:31:42,485
So this is our statute,
not their statutes.

843
00:31:42,485 --> 00:31:44,960
This is in 36 61,

844
00:31:44,960 --> 00:31:47,450
expressly
mandating not from

845
00:31:47,450 --> 00:31:49,369
a class to stream, right?

846
00:31:49,369 --> 00:31:51,229
Well then why
do we have to

847
00:31:51,229 --> 00:31:53,224
rely upon the DOF rules?

848
00:31:53,224 --> 00:31:54,559
For the authority
for this because

849
00:31:54,559 --> 00:31:56,029
they're the ones
who classify it and

850
00:31:56,029 --> 00:31:57,619
thereabout in their rules

851
00:31:57,619 --> 00:31:59,735
and thereabout to
change their rules and

852
00:31:59,735 --> 00:32:01,610
adopt a new classification

853
00:32:01,610 --> 00:32:02,930
system and they won't use

854
00:32:02,930 --> 00:32:06,770
the same numbers
and whatnot.

855
00:32:06,770 --> 00:32:09,230
Well, is it going
to be an equal

856
00:32:09,230 --> 00:32:11,329
to the class to stream
in their new rules?

857
00:32:11,329 --> 00:32:12,784
Basically, we don't have,

858
00:32:12,784 --> 00:32:15,589
we may not have do we
have do we have on none

859
00:32:15,589 --> 00:32:16,699
of the head and

860
00:32:16,699 --> 00:32:18,049
we ask Kevin to
come up for me.

861
00:32:18,049 --> 00:32:19,190
Yeah.

862
00:32:19,190 --> 00:32:22,639
Commissioners,
that Dick and

863
00:32:22,639 --> 00:32:25,039
I and Mike Rob met with
forestry yesterday,

864
00:32:25,039 --> 00:32:27,275
Department of Forestry
and they are changing.

865
00:32:27,275 --> 00:32:30,035
And the term that would
be used would be,

866
00:32:30,035 --> 00:32:31,535
if I remember
right, is a class

867
00:32:31,535 --> 00:32:33,289
in the stream.

868
00:32:33,289 --> 00:32:36,319
So they are, they are in

869
00:32:36,319 --> 00:32:37,145
the process of

870
00:32:37,145 --> 00:32:39,424
wholesale amendments
in this area.

871
00:32:39,424 --> 00:32:41,974
There is another
possibility here,

872
00:32:41,974 --> 00:32:44,210
and that is
forestry maintains

873
00:32:44,210 --> 00:32:45,679
maps that show

874
00:32:45,679 --> 00:32:47,240
class one and
class two streams.

875
00:32:47,240 --> 00:32:48,350
They're not going
to burn those

876
00:32:48,350 --> 00:32:49,910
maps and throw them away.

877
00:32:49,910 --> 00:32:52,085
So those maps
will be available

878
00:32:52,085 --> 00:32:54,695
in all of their offices
throughout the state.

879
00:32:54,695 --> 00:32:56,839
And we could wait until

880
00:32:56,839 --> 00:32:59,900
the 17 95 session to get

881
00:32:59,900 --> 00:33:02,165
this language changed and

882
00:33:02,165 --> 00:33:03,589
just continue to use class

883
00:33:03,589 --> 00:33:05,044
one, class two streams.

884
00:33:05,044 --> 00:33:05,885
What did we just say?

885
00:33:05,885 --> 00:33:07,595
Class two stream?

886
00:33:07,595 --> 00:33:09,544
Leave it the way it is.

887
00:33:09,544 --> 00:33:12,454
The whole references
that where it is.

888
00:33:12,454 --> 00:33:17,300
And then just add the
forest practices rules,

889
00:33:17,300 --> 00:33:18,635
OER, blah, blah, blah.

890
00:33:18,635 --> 00:33:21,530
As of the date
of these rules,

891
00:33:21,530 --> 00:33:25,370
adoption of these rules or

892
00:33:25,370 --> 00:33:26,749
equivalent
within the rule,

893
00:33:26,749 --> 00:33:27,769
equivalent to the question

894
00:33:27,769 --> 00:33:28,804
would be for Celeste,

895
00:33:28,804 --> 00:33:30,619
do we have the power under

896
00:33:30,619 --> 00:33:33,080
the statute to put
or equivalent?

897
00:33:33,080 --> 00:33:35,480
I think you could
probably do that.

898
00:33:35,480 --> 00:33:36,544
Although I think

899
00:33:36,544 --> 00:33:38,510
your suggestion that
you just made it,

900
00:33:38,510 --> 00:33:41,029
you say according to
the standards and

901
00:33:41,029 --> 00:33:42,680
effect that this time is

902
00:33:42,680 --> 00:33:44,880
probably the best option.

903
00:33:46,240 --> 00:33:49,400
Where are you guys
going to change?

904
00:33:49,400 --> 00:33:53,479
We've had some demand
from the legislature

905
00:33:53,479 --> 00:33:57,259
to redo classifications
and Senate Bill 11,

906
00:33:57,259 --> 00:33:59,960
25 from a couple
of years ago.

907
00:33:59,960 --> 00:34:01,909
We've been in
this process now

908
00:34:01,909 --> 00:34:04,385
for what seems
to be forever.

909
00:34:04,385 --> 00:34:07,249
And we've gone through
many iterations

910
00:34:07,249 --> 00:34:08,749
at the last
legislative session,

911
00:34:08,749 --> 00:34:11,000
nobody really knew what
was going to go on.

912
00:34:11,000 --> 00:34:13,640
We referenced
class to stream.

913
00:34:13,640 --> 00:34:15,230
I guess there's
about three

914
00:34:15,230 --> 00:34:16,474
different ways
you could do it.

915
00:34:16,474 --> 00:34:17,809
One of them is
to just stick

916
00:34:17,809 --> 00:34:19,565
a date in class
two streams

917
00:34:19,565 --> 00:34:23,599
as of today's date
or whatever date,

918
00:34:23,599 --> 00:34:27,904
which would require
somehow coordination

919
00:34:27,904 --> 00:34:30,799
on finding exactly
where those

920
00:34:30,799 --> 00:34:33,829
were in getting that
that information to

921
00:34:33,829 --> 00:34:34,699
the counties so that

922
00:34:34,699 --> 00:34:35,689
they wouldn't
have it because

923
00:34:35,689 --> 00:34:36,650
it's not something that we

924
00:34:36,650 --> 00:34:38,134
would keep over time.

925
00:34:38,134 --> 00:34:39,634
Do you have it right now?

926
00:34:39,634 --> 00:34:40,715
If you want you in there,

927
00:34:40,715 --> 00:34:43,204
if you walk into our
district forest offices,

928
00:34:43,204 --> 00:34:44,689
they have a map
on the wall that

929
00:34:44,689 --> 00:34:46,550
has a class one,
class two stream.

930
00:34:46,550 --> 00:34:48,590
Now, recognize that
that is something

931
00:34:48,590 --> 00:34:50,885
that is an ongoing
changing affair.

932
00:34:50,885 --> 00:34:53,990
If we find significant
fish use or if we find

933
00:34:53,990 --> 00:34:55,309
domestic water use in

934
00:34:55,309 --> 00:34:57,320
a place that it
wasn't on the map,

935
00:34:57,320 --> 00:34:58,909
then that's
going to change.

936
00:34:58,909 --> 00:35:00,440
So it's not an arbitrary

937
00:35:00,440 --> 00:35:02,119
carved in stone
kind of thing.

938
00:35:02,119 --> 00:35:03,679
That's why I feel
it's cleaner

939
00:35:03,679 --> 00:35:05,210
to go the other
route if we

940
00:35:05,210 --> 00:35:08,734
can and reference
or equivalent.

941
00:35:08,734 --> 00:35:10,789
And whatever we
come up with,

942
00:35:10,789 --> 00:35:13,909
what's on the table
now says Class n.

943
00:35:13,909 --> 00:35:15,710
Whether or not those
are going to be

944
00:35:15,710 --> 00:35:17,629
adopted is also
problematical.

945
00:35:17,629 --> 00:35:18,740
So it would be

946
00:35:18,740 --> 00:35:21,664
some sort of equivalent
classification.

947
00:35:21,664 --> 00:35:23,570
Makes more sense to me.

948
00:35:23,570 --> 00:35:25,189
Now let's conform
as closely as we

949
00:35:25,189 --> 00:35:27,124
can to what DOF
is doing, right?

950
00:35:27,124 --> 00:35:28,970
Celeste, tell us
how to do it.

951
00:35:28,970 --> 00:35:31,354
So what's the best way
for us to conform?

952
00:35:31,354 --> 00:35:33,350
Or you can say
class two stream or

953
00:35:33,350 --> 00:35:35,735
equivalent class
to stream as of

954
00:35:35,735 --> 00:35:37,640
1993 rules or they are

955
00:35:37,640 --> 00:35:39,529
equivalent and that would

956
00:35:39,529 --> 00:35:41,419
be consistent
with the statute.

957
00:35:41,419 --> 00:35:46,789
Okay. A class
to stream as of

958
00:35:46,789 --> 00:35:50,119
1993 rules as yes

959
00:35:50,119 --> 00:35:51,664
or its equivalent
designation

960
00:35:51,664 --> 00:35:55,199
under the 900s when

961
00:35:55,330 --> 00:35:58,645
they're changing the
rules now for the

962
00:35:58,645 --> 00:36:02,615
94, the equivalent
designation.

963
00:36:02,615 --> 00:36:06,020
I mean, they're
not exact copies

964
00:36:06,020 --> 00:36:07,490
from one to the
other. You don't.

965
00:36:07,490 --> 00:36:09,319
I mean, we've
gone away from

966
00:36:09,319 --> 00:36:11,240
significant fish use and

967
00:36:11,240 --> 00:36:12,800
going toward a concept

968
00:36:12,800 --> 00:36:15,859
where we're talking
about all fish use.

969
00:36:15,859 --> 00:36:18,979
Classifying fish
because we've found

970
00:36:18,979 --> 00:36:20,450
that the smaller streams

971
00:36:20,450 --> 00:36:22,355
have more effect than
we thought they did.

972
00:36:22,355 --> 00:36:23,434
Solon.

973
00:36:23,434 --> 00:36:25,924
Equivalent doesn't
mean exact.

974
00:36:25,924 --> 00:36:30,514
It's equivalent
adopted under OERs.

975
00:36:30,514 --> 00:36:34,084
And that can constantly
change the yeah.

976
00:36:34,084 --> 00:36:36,019
Right? Right. They're
not equivalent.

977
00:36:36,019 --> 00:36:37,070
He's the reason for

978
00:36:37,070 --> 00:36:38,480
doing this is
we're trying to

979
00:36:38,480 --> 00:36:41,180
avoid a conflict
situation on the ground.

980
00:36:41,180 --> 00:36:43,669
And if now, if a landowner

981
00:36:43,669 --> 00:36:46,280
comes in and they
use a water source,

982
00:36:46,280 --> 00:36:48,119
then we would
protect it 3,000

983
00:36:48,119 --> 00:36:50,750
ft above that water
source with something

984
00:36:50,750 --> 00:36:52,730
different with some
different kinds

985
00:36:52,730 --> 00:36:57,439
of protection cat
classification,

986
00:36:57,439 --> 00:36:59,509
which means that the
landowners upstream

987
00:36:59,509 --> 00:37:02,134
from that owner would
then be required,

988
00:37:02,134 --> 00:37:05,105
would have a larger
cost put on them.

989
00:37:05,105 --> 00:37:07,400
Under the new
classification system,

990
00:37:07,400 --> 00:37:08,749
more of the streams can

991
00:37:08,749 --> 00:37:10,324
be classified with fish,

992
00:37:10,324 --> 00:37:11,929
and therefore,
we would have

993
00:37:11,929 --> 00:37:14,060
fewer problems in
this kind of area.

994
00:37:14,060 --> 00:37:18,814
So if we reference the
rules as they evolve,

995
00:37:18,814 --> 00:37:21,965
I think we're better
off over time.

996
00:37:21,965 --> 00:37:23,599
Now, why can't you

997
00:37:23,599 --> 00:37:25,459
just call it a class
to stream and we

998
00:37:25,459 --> 00:37:26,690
don't have a
problem seriously

999
00:37:26,690 --> 00:37:27,859
when I call it class

1000
00:37:27,859 --> 00:37:29,210
and call it class two

1001
00:37:29,210 --> 00:37:30,890
and then there
is no problem.

1002
00:37:30,890 --> 00:37:34,370
Because our statute
says Class two.

1003
00:37:34,370 --> 00:37:37,684
That's the problem.
You call it a class.

1004
00:37:37,684 --> 00:37:39,139
You can make any change in

1005
00:37:39,139 --> 00:37:41,014
the board and okay.

1006
00:37:41,014 --> 00:37:42,140
Well, maybe I could take

1007
00:37:42,140 --> 00:37:43,730
that force report and

1008
00:37:43,730 --> 00:37:44,540
tell them that if they

1009
00:37:44,540 --> 00:37:46,384
change it to class end.

1010
00:37:46,384 --> 00:37:48,799
Well, another possible
way of dealing with

1011
00:37:48,799 --> 00:37:51,215
this is to leave it
exactly the way it is.

1012
00:37:51,215 --> 00:37:53,014
When the Department
of Forestry

1013
00:37:53,014 --> 00:37:54,770
amends its rules.

1014
00:37:54,770 --> 00:37:58,410
We could make an
adjustment to our rule.

1015
00:37:58,840 --> 00:38:01,489
We don t know what the
Department of Forestry

1016
00:38:01,489 --> 00:38:02,675
is going to do
really. Well.

1017
00:38:02,675 --> 00:38:03,829
Why can't we do that right

1018
00:38:03,829 --> 00:38:05,045
now and just
take care of it?

1019
00:38:05,045 --> 00:38:06,319
Because you don't know
what they're gonna do.

1020
00:38:06,319 --> 00:38:07,774
Well, what you make,

1021
00:38:07,774 --> 00:38:09,320
what they do as long as we

1022
00:38:09,320 --> 00:38:11,795
agree to go along with
what they're doing.

1023
00:38:11,795 --> 00:38:13,970
Well, the issue, it

1024
00:38:13,970 --> 00:38:16,490
sounds to me like a
legal thing is to say,

1025
00:38:16,490 --> 00:38:18,529
not from a class
to stream as

1026
00:38:18,529 --> 00:38:20,930
defined in forest
practices rules,

1027
00:38:20,930 --> 00:38:24,094
parentheses always
say OER chapter 629,

1028
00:38:24,094 --> 00:38:26,269
then we at least
know we don't get

1029
00:38:26,269 --> 00:38:27,710
the sub three and whatever

1030
00:38:27,710 --> 00:38:29,764
because you might
change that.

1031
00:38:29,764 --> 00:38:30,770
And then we have to go to

1032
00:38:30,770 --> 00:38:31,939
appeal to the Board to

1033
00:38:31,939 --> 00:38:34,699
keep the term class too.

1034
00:38:34,699 --> 00:38:36,779
And you can make any
changes to the store.

1035
00:38:36,779 --> 00:38:38,539
Just amend our rule
when they came in there

1036
00:38:38,539 --> 00:38:40,324
as well. This
takes care of it.

1037
00:38:40,324 --> 00:38:41,729
Then.

1038
00:38:42,070 --> 00:38:44,360
If we don't
succeed in getting

1039
00:38:44,360 --> 00:38:46,880
a call class two, then
we've got a problem.

1040
00:38:46,880 --> 00:38:49,649
Well, let's do something.

1041
00:38:51,070 --> 00:38:53,869
So after hearing all
this discussion deck,

1042
00:38:53,869 --> 00:38:56,224
what's the staff
recommendation?

1043
00:38:56,224 --> 00:38:57,889
Not from a class to

1044
00:38:57,889 --> 00:39:02,480
stream as defined in

1045
00:39:02,480 --> 00:39:05,869
forest practices rules
OER six to nine.

1046
00:39:05,869 --> 00:39:07,985
I'll make that motion.

1047
00:39:07,985 --> 00:39:09,845
Second.

1048
00:39:09,845 --> 00:39:12,499
Discussion wasn't favor.

1049
00:39:12,499 --> 00:39:13,970
Aye. Aye. Opposed.

1050
00:39:13,970 --> 00:39:14,555
No.

1051
00:39:14,555 --> 00:39:19,670
Caries. Tell your board.

1052
00:39:19,670 --> 00:39:21,110
Don't don't do get
rid of the word.

1053
00:39:21,110 --> 00:39:24,424
Tries to, please.

1054
00:39:24,424 --> 00:39:25,355
Okay.

1055
00:39:25,355 --> 00:39:25,820
Thank you.

1056
00:39:25,820 --> 00:39:29,119
Thanks, Kevin. Motion to

1057
00:39:29,119 --> 00:39:30,394
amend or did we pass?

1058
00:39:30,394 --> 00:39:32,164
That was the
motion to amend.

1059
00:39:32,164 --> 00:39:37,714
Then I'll move to approve
recommendation 133.

1060
00:39:37,714 --> 00:39:40,699
Okay. Second discussion.

1061
00:39:40,699 --> 00:39:41,780
Question.

1062
00:39:41,780 --> 00:39:42,469
I wasn't fair.

1063
00:39:42,469 --> 00:39:46,055
I I suppose no caries.

1064
00:39:46,055 --> 00:39:47,524
Now we're at four.

1065
00:39:47,524 --> 00:39:50,554
I don't afford
deed restrictions.

1066
00:39:50,554 --> 00:39:53,359
This is the exhibit
at the end.

1067
00:39:53,359 --> 00:39:58,020
We had to revise to
fit the statute.

1068
00:39:59,290 --> 00:40:01,865
Job loss or commissioners.

1069
00:40:01,865 --> 00:40:04,820
We have worked with

1070
00:40:04,820 --> 00:40:06,485
the Department of Justice,

1071
00:40:06,485 --> 00:40:08,329
given comments we received

1072
00:40:08,329 --> 00:40:09,950
from the folks
that were helping

1073
00:40:09,950 --> 00:40:14,840
us draft this deed
restriction section.

1074
00:40:14,840 --> 00:40:17,990
And the language
before you is language

1075
00:40:17,990 --> 00:40:22,039
that I believe will
speak to this,

1076
00:40:22,039 --> 00:40:25,085
but the DoD has
worked with us on,

1077
00:40:25,085 --> 00:40:27,829
um, I think it resolves
a couple of things.

1078
00:40:27,829 --> 00:40:29,209
One is it more clearly

1079
00:40:29,209 --> 00:40:31,685
implements the
language in the law.

1080
00:40:31,685 --> 00:40:35,180
It has the term citing
and construction,

1081
00:40:35,180 --> 00:40:36,319
which were both used.

1082
00:40:36,319 --> 00:40:38,075
It also gets at the use

1083
00:40:38,075 --> 00:40:40,460
of portions of the track

1084
00:40:40,460 --> 00:40:42,215
to qualify other tracts,

1085
00:40:42,215 --> 00:40:44,089
it limits the use of

1086
00:40:44,089 --> 00:40:47,959
that acreage as provided
in the statute.

1087
00:40:47,959 --> 00:40:50,675
And finally, if
you'll recall,

1088
00:40:50,675 --> 00:40:52,970
last time we were
discussing this,

1089
00:40:52,970 --> 00:40:54,725
commissioner
Pfeiffer had raised

1090
00:40:54,725 --> 00:40:56,300
the issue that the

1091
00:40:56,300 --> 00:40:58,939
way the deed restriction
was structured,

1092
00:40:58,939 --> 00:41:01,220
it may have made
it self-executing.

1093
00:41:01,220 --> 00:41:02,809
In other words, there
was no requirement

1094
00:41:02,809 --> 00:41:04,669
to actually remove it.

1095
00:41:04,669 --> 00:41:06,620
And we had language

1096
00:41:06,620 --> 00:41:08,030
and are rules
that did require

1097
00:41:08,030 --> 00:41:09,590
the counties
to sign off or

1098
00:41:09,590 --> 00:41:11,600
the commission wanted
the counties to be

1099
00:41:11,600 --> 00:41:13,459
signing off on removal of

1100
00:41:13,459 --> 00:41:15,905
the covenant at
some future date.

1101
00:41:15,905 --> 00:41:17,660
So we've tried to
resolve all of

1102
00:41:17,660 --> 00:41:20,225
those things in
the new language,

1103
00:41:20,225 --> 00:41:21,829
and I don't know if

1104
00:41:21,829 --> 00:41:24,049
our legal counsel wants to

1105
00:41:24,049 --> 00:41:26,255
add anything more to that.

1106
00:41:26,255 --> 00:41:28,774
I don't think I
have any comments.

1107
00:41:28,774 --> 00:41:30,560
There's a typo in line 11,

1108
00:41:30,560 --> 00:41:40,500
I think, of her
or demeanor of

1109
00:41:50,530 --> 00:41:52,610
and also on page six,

1110
00:41:52,610 --> 00:41:56,040
the same error on line
six, the same error.

1111
00:42:04,390 --> 00:42:06,185
Mr. Chair?

1112
00:42:06,185 --> 00:42:06,590
Yeah.

1113
00:42:06,590 --> 00:42:09,140
I think there was
some concern and

1114
00:42:09,140 --> 00:42:10,309
I think it was

1115
00:42:10,309 --> 00:42:11,810
Kelly Ross that
raises the issue.

1116
00:42:11,810 --> 00:42:15,560
That's the way this
restriction is worded.

1117
00:42:15,560 --> 00:42:16,999
It may interfere with

1118
00:42:16,999 --> 00:42:18,109
somebody's ability to get

1119
00:42:18,109 --> 00:42:19,895
a replacement dwelling

1120
00:42:19,895 --> 00:42:25,804
or to have uses allowed
by 213 one-thirty.

1121
00:42:25,804 --> 00:42:28,850
I don't think that
this affects those.

1122
00:42:28,850 --> 00:42:31,040
Those rights,
but maybe Mr.

1123
00:42:31,040 --> 00:42:32,180
Ross would like to comment

1124
00:42:32,180 --> 00:42:33,529
on that for the
commission.

1125
00:42:33,529 --> 00:42:34,535
Okay.

1126
00:42:34,535 --> 00:42:37,594
I agree with her.
Re-examined it.

1127
00:42:37,594 --> 00:42:39,480
Okay.

1128
00:42:45,010 --> 00:42:46,999
Discussion.

1129
00:42:46,999 --> 00:42:48,900
Emotion.

1130
00:42:49,180 --> 00:42:53,060
Stafford, who they
were they corrections

1131
00:42:53,060 --> 00:42:58,384
to the second question.

1132
00:42:58,384 --> 00:43:01,565
All those in
favor I I know

1133
00:43:01,565 --> 00:43:06,230
Gary's red item five,

1134
00:43:06,230 --> 00:43:10,470
definition of date of
creation and existence.

1135
00:43:15,010 --> 00:43:19,100
Commissioners,
this issue arises

1136
00:43:19,100 --> 00:43:21,934
out of some of the
discussions we've had

1137
00:43:21,934 --> 00:43:24,094
regarding lot
line adjustment

1138
00:43:24,094 --> 00:43:25,760
and those the impact

1139
00:43:25,760 --> 00:43:27,619
of those lot
line adjustments

1140
00:43:27,619 --> 00:43:29,960
on the requirements,

1141
00:43:29,960 --> 00:43:33,050
particularly of
the goal for rule,

1142
00:43:33,050 --> 00:43:34,385
although I will say

1143
00:43:34,385 --> 00:43:36,694
not in your goal
three rule yet,

1144
00:43:36,694 --> 00:43:39,319
but the whatever
the commission

1145
00:43:39,319 --> 00:43:41,809
decides on this
issue ought to

1146
00:43:41,809 --> 00:43:43,700
be there ought to be

1147
00:43:43,700 --> 00:43:47,149
parallel language in
the division 33 rules,

1148
00:43:47,149 --> 00:43:50,519
the the the farm rules,

1149
00:43:50,530 --> 00:43:54,304
the concern that we have

1150
00:43:54,304 --> 00:43:57,379
with the issue of
lot line adjustment

1151
00:43:57,379 --> 00:44:00,260
and how they affect the
date of creation is

1152
00:44:00,260 --> 00:44:03,260
that there are
date requirements,

1153
00:44:03,260 --> 00:44:04,520
particularly for

1154
00:44:04,520 --> 00:44:07,475
the template dwellings
on forest land.

1155
00:44:07,475 --> 00:44:09,110
The lot of record

1156
00:44:09,110 --> 00:44:12,964
dwelling productivity
standards

1157
00:44:12,964 --> 00:44:14,540
that are impacted by

1158
00:44:14,540 --> 00:44:16,955
the relocation of
a lot boundary.

1159
00:44:16,955 --> 00:44:19,835
We wanted to
avoid a situation

1160
00:44:19,835 --> 00:44:22,880
where lot line
adjustments are used

1161
00:44:22,880 --> 00:44:24,680
to qualify a parcel

1162
00:44:24,680 --> 00:44:25,910
or track that
would not have

1163
00:44:25,910 --> 00:44:27,860
otherwise
qualified a parcel

1164
00:44:27,860 --> 00:44:29,270
or tract or where

1165
00:44:29,270 --> 00:44:31,280
that parcel lot
tract would not have

1166
00:44:31,280 --> 00:44:34,475
qualified under the
productivity test,

1167
00:44:34,475 --> 00:44:36,830
the 5,000 or 4,000,

1168
00:44:36,830 --> 00:44:40,970
or that the
requirement for

1169
00:44:40,970 --> 00:44:43,624
the template would be

1170
00:44:43,624 --> 00:44:45,170
moved by the relocation

1171
00:44:45,170 --> 00:44:46,984
of the common boundary.

1172
00:44:46,984 --> 00:44:49,999
You'd be able to shift
the template around

1173
00:44:49,999 --> 00:44:51,200
on the parcel simply by

1174
00:44:51,200 --> 00:44:53,075
doing lot line
adjustments.

1175
00:44:53,075 --> 00:44:54,589
We don't believe that was

1176
00:44:54,589 --> 00:44:57,185
the intent of
the drafters.

1177
00:44:57,185 --> 00:44:58,640
And I think
that's the reason

1178
00:44:58,640 --> 00:45:02,120
the 1830s date was put
in is not to allow

1179
00:45:02,120 --> 00:45:03,500
the and then I think

1180
00:45:03,500 --> 00:45:04,669
the term used I wasn't in

1181
00:45:04,669 --> 00:45:05,720
the workgroup was not

1182
00:45:05,720 --> 00:45:08,430
allowing the
template to walk.

1183
00:45:10,450 --> 00:45:12,499
We have come up with

1184
00:45:12,499 --> 00:45:15,229
some language that
basically says in

1185
00:45:15,229 --> 00:45:16,969
simple terms that when you

1186
00:45:16,969 --> 00:45:20,465
reconfigure a parcel
by moving a lot line,

1187
00:45:20,465 --> 00:45:22,804
the date that that
parcel was created

1188
00:45:22,804 --> 00:45:25,790
changes to the date
that it's reconfigured.

1189
00:45:25,790 --> 00:45:30,214
You will have at
least some, I guess,

1190
00:45:30,214 --> 00:45:32,660
discussion today and
I think Roy Burns

1191
00:45:32,660 --> 00:45:35,314
has raised some concern.

1192
00:45:35,314 --> 00:45:36,290
I don't know if you have

1193
00:45:36,290 --> 00:45:37,819
in writing Roy's letter,

1194
00:45:37,819 --> 00:45:39,244
I looked at it yesterday.

1195
00:45:39,244 --> 00:45:42,409
Um, some concern
about how that

1196
00:45:42,409 --> 00:45:46,985
impacts a perhaps
a road relocation

1197
00:45:46,985 --> 00:45:48,425
where the state comes in,

1198
00:45:48,425 --> 00:45:51,290
buys highway right-of-way,
All of a sudden,

1199
00:45:51,290 --> 00:45:53,404
would that
disqualify a parcel?

1200
00:45:53,404 --> 00:45:55,130
What if there's a survey

1201
00:45:55,130 --> 00:45:56,749
error and you have to

1202
00:45:56,749 --> 00:45:58,250
adjust the
property boundary

1203
00:45:58,250 --> 00:46:00,094
because of that
survey error.

1204
00:46:00,094 --> 00:46:03,229
Or what if a
property boundary

1205
00:46:03,229 --> 00:46:06,019
bisects or divides
a structure,

1206
00:46:06,019 --> 00:46:07,699
dwelling, or a barn.

1207
00:46:07,699 --> 00:46:11,059
Those are situations
where Mr.

1208
00:46:11,059 --> 00:46:14,569
Burns believes
that the impact of

1209
00:46:14,569 --> 00:46:17,555
this language unfairly
will penalize

1210
00:46:17,555 --> 00:46:19,730
owners who are who are

1211
00:46:19,730 --> 00:46:21,200
seeking lot
line adjustment

1212
00:46:21,200 --> 00:46:23,310
for those reasons.

1213
00:46:23,320 --> 00:46:25,460
At that point, I guess

1214
00:46:25,460 --> 00:46:28,889
I opened it up
here from Roy.

1215
00:46:29,290 --> 00:46:32,210
Does he do you
have language with

1216
00:46:32,210 --> 00:46:35,045
your ROI for this?

1217
00:46:35,045 --> 00:46:37,940
I think dad was drafted
some language okay.

1218
00:46:37,940 --> 00:46:39,109
To accommodate
it, but maybe

1219
00:46:39,109 --> 00:46:40,700
ROI does too. Good.

1220
00:46:40,700 --> 00:46:42,139
We are Mr. Chairman,

1221
00:46:42,139 --> 00:46:44,989
Can we ask art to
come up with Roy?

1222
00:46:44,989 --> 00:46:54,169
This was our examples.

1223
00:46:54,169 --> 00:46:56,269
I think we
understand that.

1224
00:46:56,269 --> 00:46:57,379
Well, you could explain

1225
00:46:57,379 --> 00:46:58,565
the problem briefly about

1226
00:46:58,565 --> 00:47:01,189
bisecting houses and
roads and silver.

1227
00:47:01,189 --> 00:47:02,945
We understand that issue.

1228
00:47:02,945 --> 00:47:04,340
Question is, can we fix it

1229
00:47:04,340 --> 00:47:07,415
without simply
temple pigs?

1230
00:47:07,415 --> 00:47:09,079
There are simple
fix or do we open

1231
00:47:09,079 --> 00:47:11,600
another Pandora's
box by fixing it?

1232
00:47:11,600 --> 00:47:14,720
Everybody's abandoning
the, the table.

1233
00:47:14,720 --> 00:47:15,529
I don't know if
there's something

1234
00:47:15,529 --> 00:47:17,360
symbolic about
that or not.

1235
00:47:17,360 --> 00:47:20,839
For the record, my
name is Roy Burns,

1236
00:47:20,839 --> 00:47:22,459
planning director
for Lane County.

1237
00:47:22,459 --> 00:47:24,199
Art is with me.

1238
00:47:24,199 --> 00:47:28,399
Our concern is that
we really don't

1239
00:47:28,399 --> 00:47:29,509
have a clear
understanding of

1240
00:47:29,509 --> 00:47:32,705
the problem that you're
proposing to solve.

1241
00:47:32,705 --> 00:47:34,789
We did have language which

1242
00:47:34,789 --> 00:47:37,835
would have
substituted under

1243
00:47:37,835 --> 00:47:43,024
on your proposed
recommendation

1244
00:47:43,024 --> 00:47:47,149
that Mr. Blanton
indicated on page five,

1245
00:47:47,149 --> 00:47:49,040
we thought the
major problem

1246
00:47:49,040 --> 00:47:51,469
was people adjusting
lots to come

1247
00:47:51,469 --> 00:47:52,969
below the 5,000 cubic

1248
00:47:52,969 --> 00:47:56,690
foot or 4,000 cubic
foot was your concern.

1249
00:47:56,690 --> 00:48:02,430
And so we being fairly
simple, we felt that

1250
00:48:03,130 --> 00:48:08,120
By simply amending
where it says When

1251
00:48:08,120 --> 00:48:10,670
a lot parcel or tract is

1252
00:48:10,670 --> 00:48:14,150
reconfigured after
November 4, 1993,

1253
00:48:14,150 --> 00:48:15,755
which was the date of

1254
00:48:15,755 --> 00:48:17,569
the law going into effect

1255
00:48:17,569 --> 00:48:18,979
as we understand it,

1256
00:48:18,979 --> 00:48:22,039
which is intended to
achieve compliance

1257
00:48:22,039 --> 00:48:26,884
with 5,000 or
4,000 cubic foot.

1258
00:48:26,884 --> 00:48:28,725
The date of
reconfiguration

1259
00:48:28,725 --> 00:48:30,230
as the date of creation
of the parcel,

1260
00:48:30,230 --> 00:48:31,669
but I'm unsure as

1261
00:48:31,669 --> 00:48:33,469
to everything you're
trying to solve.

1262
00:48:33,469 --> 00:48:36,425
So we wanted to be a
little more precise.

1263
00:48:36,425 --> 00:48:39,409
Okay, now wait, I
was looking at this,

1264
00:48:39,409 --> 00:48:41,390
thinking that this had

1265
00:48:41,390 --> 00:48:43,219
in writing the change
we're proposing,

1266
00:48:43,219 --> 00:48:44,914
that we were just
dictating it.

1267
00:48:44,914 --> 00:48:48,080
And so you would change
going to page five,

1268
00:48:48,080 --> 00:48:49,610
you would change
what we have there

1269
00:48:49,610 --> 00:48:51,499
to watch at the end of

1270
00:48:51,499 --> 00:48:55,925
the reconfigured
reconfigured comma.

1271
00:48:55,925 --> 00:49:00,709
Comma after
November 4, 1993,

1272
00:49:00,709 --> 00:49:02,989
which is intended
to achieve

1273
00:49:02,989 --> 00:49:06,529
compliance with 5,000 or

1274
00:49:06,529 --> 00:49:14,160
4,000 cubic foot
requirements.

1275
00:49:16,420 --> 00:49:18,800
The date of
reconfiguration

1276
00:49:18,800 --> 00:49:20,015
is the date of creation.

1277
00:49:20,015 --> 00:49:21,650
I thought we were
trying to target

1278
00:49:21,650 --> 00:49:24,809
the lot of record
provision.

1279
00:49:25,420 --> 00:49:30,110
I guess that would
leave everything

1280
00:49:30,110 --> 00:49:32,509
else such as
those examples I

1281
00:49:32,509 --> 00:49:36,179
raised as not being
having that net effect.

1282
00:49:36,520 --> 00:49:41,720
So it's when a lot of

1283
00:49:41,720 --> 00:49:44,060
parcel or track is

1284
00:49:44,060 --> 00:49:47,405
reconfigured after
November 4, 1993.

1285
00:49:47,405 --> 00:49:49,939
Which reconfiguration
is intended

1286
00:49:49,939 --> 00:49:54,245
to achieve compliance
with 5,000?

1287
00:49:54,245 --> 00:49:58,249
Maybe just for reference,

1288
00:49:58,249 --> 00:49:59,119
we could just refer to

1289
00:49:59,119 --> 00:50:00,424
rather than
putting that in.

1290
00:50:00,424 --> 00:50:02,389
But they're all going to

1291
00:50:02,389 --> 00:50:05,150
set this to an intent.

1292
00:50:05,150 --> 00:50:07,685
That seems to be
problematic to me.

1293
00:50:07,685 --> 00:50:10,025
I mean, who is going
to come in and say,

1294
00:50:10,025 --> 00:50:11,930
I'm intending to do this

1295
00:50:11,930 --> 00:50:14,854
so that we can say
or bring it below.

1296
00:50:14,854 --> 00:50:16,459
Well, you'd have
to say the result

1297
00:50:16,459 --> 00:50:17,735
of which is to,

1298
00:50:17,735 --> 00:50:19,339
is to you during

1299
00:50:19,339 --> 00:50:20,690
the state had
converted to a fact.

1300
00:50:20,690 --> 00:50:22,910
Well, this is the
result that it applies

1301
00:50:22,910 --> 00:50:24,500
regardless of
what the purpose

1302
00:50:24,500 --> 00:50:27,199
was or what the
stated intent was.

1303
00:50:27,199 --> 00:50:31,039
So you'd substitute,
which would result in

1304
00:50:31,039 --> 00:50:35,269
instead of achieve shared.

1305
00:50:35,269 --> 00:50:36,349
Kinda awkward for me to do

1306
00:50:36,349 --> 00:50:37,774
this without evidence
in front of me.

1307
00:50:37,774 --> 00:50:39,319
In Britain. I wonder

1308
00:50:39,319 --> 00:50:42,350
if we have a way that
we work with staff.

1309
00:50:42,350 --> 00:50:46,200
I really haven't
written out.

1310
00:50:47,020 --> 00:50:49,369
He Greenleaf sitting over

1311
00:50:49,369 --> 00:50:52,679
there writing, Thanks.

1312
00:50:52,900 --> 00:50:54,335
Dale.

1313
00:50:54,335 --> 00:50:55,829
Dale is perfectly
capable of,

1314
00:50:55,829 --> 00:50:58,490
but we need Dale
up here is this is

1315
00:50:58,490 --> 00:50:59,989
the last issue for

1316
00:50:59,989 --> 00:51:01,654
which Dale will
be leading,

1317
00:51:01,654 --> 00:51:03,020
I think, isn't
it right now?

1318
00:51:03,020 --> 00:51:03,634
Okay.

1319
00:51:03,634 --> 00:51:04,490
Because then you get into

1320
00:51:04,490 --> 00:51:05,719
the agricultural
lands thing.

1321
00:51:05,719 --> 00:51:07,909
So maybe a couple of

1322
00:51:07,909 --> 00:51:10,985
you could you guys
go and wrap that up,

1323
00:51:10,985 --> 00:51:12,229
bring it back to us
and we'll take care

1324
00:51:12,229 --> 00:51:13,730
of it as soon as
you come back.

1325
00:51:13,730 --> 00:51:15,290
And just another point,

1326
00:51:15,290 --> 00:51:16,910
there are two
other situations

1327
00:51:16,910 --> 00:51:18,770
that staff is
concerned about and

1328
00:51:18,770 --> 00:51:20,330
that is a lot of record on

1329
00:51:20,330 --> 00:51:21,919
the agricultural side
where you have to

1330
00:51:21,919 --> 00:51:23,870
determine the predominant
soil class and

1331
00:51:23,870 --> 00:51:25,940
you could move your
property line to

1332
00:51:25,940 --> 00:51:29,599
exclude a class one or
two soils and it no

1333
00:51:29,599 --> 00:51:31,970
longer than it would

1334
00:51:31,970 --> 00:51:33,574
qualify for a
lot of record.

1335
00:51:33,574 --> 00:51:35,630
The other is what
Dale talked about and

1336
00:51:35,630 --> 00:51:37,640
that is the
template situation.

1337
00:51:37,640 --> 00:51:38,015
Okay.

1338
00:51:38,015 --> 00:51:41,360
Well, why don't you
maybe we could maybe

1339
00:51:41,360 --> 00:51:43,115
we can't get the
same wording

1340
00:51:43,115 --> 00:51:44,749
in both places exactly.

1341
00:51:44,749 --> 00:51:45,979
So let's let you

1342
00:51:45,979 --> 00:51:47,510
go see if you can
word this for the

1343
00:51:47,510 --> 00:51:49,580
forestry one will
take care of

1344
00:51:49,580 --> 00:51:52,399
that and then we'll
work on a egg one.

1345
00:51:52,399 --> 00:51:54,860
I wouldn't suggest we
try and do do them

1346
00:51:54,860 --> 00:51:55,759
separately
because they are

1347
00:51:55,759 --> 00:51:57,170
separate things we're
trying to solve,

1348
00:51:57,170 --> 00:51:59,975
I would think Yeah.
Mr. Chairman.

1349
00:51:59,975 --> 00:52:00,905
Yes.

1350
00:52:00,905 --> 00:52:02,330
I have a question.

1351
00:52:02,330 --> 00:52:04,475
Sure. Are.

1352
00:52:04,475 --> 00:52:06,470
What what effect
does all of this can

1353
00:52:06,470 --> 00:52:09,480
have on county planning?

1354
00:52:11,830 --> 00:52:15,260
Well, the effect
this issue,

1355
00:52:15,260 --> 00:52:17,810
the effect your Jati,

1356
00:52:17,810 --> 00:52:22,024
this art slack for AOC
land use specialists.

1357
00:52:22,024 --> 00:52:24,559
The effect would be that

1358
00:52:24,559 --> 00:52:26,164
based on the staffs graph,

1359
00:52:26,164 --> 00:52:28,295
there would be
a lot of glands

1360
00:52:28,295 --> 00:52:30,739
are a lot of lots
of parcels that

1361
00:52:30,739 --> 00:52:32,540
would have qualified
for a lot of

1362
00:52:32,540 --> 00:52:35,359
records that
because there has

1363
00:52:35,359 --> 00:52:37,069
been a simple lot
line adjustment

1364
00:52:37,069 --> 00:52:38,630
to address one of
the issues that

1365
00:52:38,630 --> 00:52:40,940
Mr. Burns identified which

1366
00:52:40,940 --> 00:52:42,965
would no longer qualify.

1367
00:52:42,965 --> 00:52:45,079
So the effect would

1368
00:52:45,079 --> 00:52:47,150
be I think that
there would be

1369
00:52:47,150 --> 00:52:49,009
a lot of counties

1370
00:52:49,009 --> 00:52:50,945
that would be under
pressure to say,

1371
00:52:50,945 --> 00:52:52,519
you know, we we

1372
00:52:52,519 --> 00:52:53,855
thought we did
everything right.

1373
00:52:53,855 --> 00:52:57,469
And now we find

1374
00:52:57,469 --> 00:53:00,889
that this rule is
going to disqualify us

1375
00:53:00,889 --> 00:53:03,965
and there was no
intent to bring

1376
00:53:03,965 --> 00:53:05,899
the parcel out
of compliance

1377
00:53:05,899 --> 00:53:07,189
with the new rules

1378
00:53:07,189 --> 00:53:08,405
that have been
established.

1379
00:53:08,405 --> 00:53:10,159
Mr. Kennedy gets
a hardship.

1380
00:53:10,159 --> 00:53:12,065
Dale drafted some language

1381
00:53:12,065 --> 00:53:13,159
to try to address this.

1382
00:53:13,159 --> 00:53:14,945
My suggestion is that

1383
00:53:14,945 --> 00:53:17,720
His language be
given to these folks

1384
00:53:17,720 --> 00:53:19,309
and let them come back

1385
00:53:19,309 --> 00:53:21,289
with a recommendation
on it,

1386
00:53:21,289 --> 00:53:23,525
it hits our objective.

1387
00:53:23,525 --> 00:53:26,314
The objective is
not to disqualify

1388
00:53:26,314 --> 00:53:28,055
anybody who qualified

1389
00:53:28,055 --> 00:53:29,690
prior to the
reconfiguration?

1390
00:53:29,690 --> 00:53:30,200
Absolutely.

1391
00:53:30,200 --> 00:53:31,415
I don t think
the objective

1392
00:53:31,415 --> 00:53:34,549
on anybody else's is

1393
00:53:34,549 --> 00:53:36,560
to qualify somebody who

1394
00:53:36,560 --> 00:53:39,214
didn't qualify prior to
the reconfiguration.

1395
00:53:39,214 --> 00:53:41,389
The effort, what we're
trying to do is hold

1396
00:53:41,389 --> 00:53:43,804
people harmless,
if you will.

1397
00:53:43,804 --> 00:53:44,314
Right?

1398
00:53:44,314 --> 00:53:45,799
Now I think what I

1399
00:53:45,799 --> 00:53:47,599
don't like about this
language is it gives

1400
00:53:47,599 --> 00:53:50,809
a list of three
instances where

1401
00:53:50,809 --> 00:53:53,449
you would not lose

1402
00:53:53,449 --> 00:53:55,534
your status as a
lot of record,

1403
00:53:55,534 --> 00:53:57,530
the way Dale has
it, it would be

1404
00:53:57,530 --> 00:53:59,735
better if you could
have it the opposites.

1405
00:53:59,735 --> 00:54:01,339
More like what
Ray is saying,

1406
00:54:01,339 --> 00:54:03,199
saying ROI is saying

1407
00:54:03,199 --> 00:54:06,425
that the effect is
not to create it.

1408
00:54:06,425 --> 00:54:08,064
Because they may have

1409
00:54:08,064 --> 00:54:10,220
maybe a fourth one that
we didn't think of.

1410
00:54:10,220 --> 00:54:12,080
For a fifth one
that we would all

1411
00:54:12,080 --> 00:54:13,189
assume or a
logical and we've

1412
00:54:13,189 --> 00:54:14,960
only got a list of three.

1413
00:54:14,960 --> 00:54:17,314
Would be nicer
if it was more.

1414
00:54:17,314 --> 00:54:19,924
I think we'll be happy
to work with staff.

1415
00:54:19,924 --> 00:54:21,259
Worry about the result

1416
00:54:21,259 --> 00:54:23,120
rather than making a list.

1417
00:54:23,120 --> 00:54:24,830
Mr. Chair, question, we're

1418
00:54:24,830 --> 00:54:26,719
dig I recall
testimony from

1419
00:54:26,719 --> 00:54:29,839
the Realtors
Association expressing

1420
00:54:29,839 --> 00:54:31,129
concern about how broadly

1421
00:54:31,129 --> 00:54:32,600
the draft language
was because

1422
00:54:32,600 --> 00:54:34,189
it it appeared
to them that it

1423
00:54:34,189 --> 00:54:36,290
captured reconfigurations
that occurred

1424
00:54:36,290 --> 00:54:39,395
prior to them before.

1425
00:54:39,395 --> 00:54:41,359
In my sense is and
it's further from

1426
00:54:41,359 --> 00:54:42,665
this discussion is that

1427
00:54:42,665 --> 00:54:44,255
not only was that
not the intent,

1428
00:54:44,255 --> 00:54:46,670
nobody's reading
the language to it

1429
00:54:46,670 --> 00:54:48,049
reconfigurations
that occurred on

1430
00:54:48,049 --> 00:54:50,089
November 3rd or
October 31st, 93.

1431
00:54:50,089 --> 00:54:52,879
It's only those
subsequent to fill it.

1432
00:54:52,879 --> 00:54:55,204
So that was just a
misunderstanding. Okay.

1433
00:54:55,204 --> 00:54:57,649
Well, the language you
come back with auto.

1434
00:54:57,649 --> 00:54:59,479
Yeah.

1435
00:54:59,479 --> 00:55:00,949
Thank you.

1436
00:55:00,949 --> 00:55:02,580
Okay.

1437
00:55:08,680 --> 00:55:13,115
Alright. Now we're to

1438
00:55:13,115 --> 00:55:15,470
glance and then
it starts right

1439
00:55:15,470 --> 00:55:17,569
out with major issue.

1440
00:55:17,569 --> 00:55:21,900
So maybe we got
to do that.

1441
00:55:22,000 --> 00:55:25,259
Oh, the definition okay.

1442
00:55:26,410 --> 00:55:28,640
Pam is certainly more than

1443
00:55:28,640 --> 00:55:30,825
her 15 min later
half-hour or so.

1444
00:55:30,825 --> 00:55:31,730
I don't want to get into

1445
00:55:31,730 --> 00:55:33,959
the big ones
associates here.

1446
00:55:34,060 --> 00:55:36,724
So let's take
a major issue.

1447
00:55:36,724 --> 00:55:38,270
One application of

1448
00:55:38,270 --> 00:55:40,850
high-value farmland
definition.

1449
00:55:40,850 --> 00:55:43,699
When I explain it
to us briefly,

1450
00:55:43,699 --> 00:55:47,255
insurance commissioners,
Chairman Wasser,

1451
00:55:47,255 --> 00:55:51,050
this is an issue
related to the on

1452
00:55:51,050 --> 00:55:52,850
the on the ground
definition

1453
00:55:52,850 --> 00:55:54,634
of high-value farmland.

1454
00:55:54,634 --> 00:55:56,405
And this really is

1455
00:55:56,405 --> 00:55:59,659
zeroed in on one specific
area on the state.

1456
00:55:59,659 --> 00:56:01,204
And that is the
harbor bench,

1457
00:56:01,204 --> 00:56:02,900
which which a lot of

1458
00:56:02,900 --> 00:56:04,939
people thought would
actually qualify

1459
00:56:04,939 --> 00:56:06,409
as high value of
farmland under

1460
00:56:06,409 --> 00:56:09,095
the definition that the
legislature adopted.

1461
00:56:09,095 --> 00:56:11,719
And that intent was
really related to

1462
00:56:11,719 --> 00:56:15,305
the term of the crop,
the term perennial.

1463
00:56:15,305 --> 00:56:18,349
Well, staff has done
some research talk

1464
00:56:18,349 --> 00:56:22,024
to OSU extension
that S SCS.

1465
00:56:22,024 --> 00:56:24,094
And it comes,
comes to find that

1466
00:56:24,094 --> 00:56:25,835
a lily ball by

1467
00:56:25,835 --> 00:56:26,870
hydrangeas are not

1468
00:56:26,870 --> 00:56:29,150
necessarily
perennial crops,

1469
00:56:29,150 --> 00:56:31,190
which is the
primary crop on

1470
00:56:31,190 --> 00:56:33,260
the on the harbor bench.

1471
00:56:33,260 --> 00:56:34,940
So our recommendation,

1472
00:56:34,940 --> 00:56:36,815
the staff recommendation
would be and

1473
00:56:36,815 --> 00:56:39,199
where I'm at is on
page five of the of

1474
00:56:39,199 --> 00:56:41,764
the February to
help excuse me,

1475
00:56:41,764 --> 00:56:43,729
line one, this
would be where

1476
00:56:43,729 --> 00:56:45,949
the new definition
would come in.

1477
00:56:45,949 --> 00:56:48,424
And what this what
this recommendation,

1478
00:56:48,424 --> 00:56:50,089
recommendation
does is list

1479
00:56:50,089 --> 00:56:53,659
the specific soils that
these crops occur.

1480
00:56:53,659 --> 00:56:55,279
And these soils,
according to

1481
00:56:55,279 --> 00:56:57,379
the SCS soil scientists
in that area,

1482
00:56:57,379 --> 00:56:59,330
only occur in this
part of the state.

1483
00:56:59,330 --> 00:56:59,899
So we wouldn't be

1484
00:56:59,899 --> 00:57:01,339
addressing any other
part of the state.

1485
00:57:01,339 --> 00:57:03,019
They wouldn't show
up and we would

1486
00:57:03,019 --> 00:57:05,060
recommend that the
harbor bench be

1487
00:57:05,060 --> 00:57:07,099
protected as
high-value farmland as

1488
00:57:07,099 --> 00:57:10,199
defined in our
recommendation.

1489
00:57:10,450 --> 00:57:15,530
Just to remind you
about another issue,

1490
00:57:15,530 --> 00:57:17,299
perhaps a larger
issue that

1491
00:57:17,299 --> 00:57:19,609
was discussed briefly at

1492
00:57:19,609 --> 00:57:20,915
the last work session

1493
00:57:20,915 --> 00:57:22,429
that takes you
to the options

1494
00:57:22,429 --> 00:57:25,864
that are discussed on
page five of our memo.

1495
00:57:25,864 --> 00:57:29,089
And that is should

1496
00:57:29,089 --> 00:57:31,549
the commission take
the definition of

1497
00:57:31,549 --> 00:57:35,075
high-value farmland
from the statute

1498
00:57:35,075 --> 00:57:38,449
and use that and
incorporate that

1499
00:57:38,449 --> 00:57:41,659
into our 1992 rules as

1500
00:57:41,659 --> 00:57:43,280
a substitute for
the definition of

1501
00:57:43,280 --> 00:57:44,299
high-value
foreign land that

1502
00:57:44,299 --> 00:57:45,830
was in those rules?

1503
00:57:45,830 --> 00:57:48,920
Or should you define
it in some other way?

1504
00:57:48,920 --> 00:57:51,289
And there were
some testimony

1505
00:57:51,289 --> 00:57:52,129
that you've heard during

1506
00:57:52,129 --> 00:57:55,609
the hearings that
I'm recommending.

1507
00:57:55,609 --> 00:57:57,485
And these are the options

1508
00:57:57,485 --> 00:57:59,284
that you should keep.

1509
00:57:59,284 --> 00:58:01,159
The definition of
high-value formula

1510
00:58:01,159 --> 00:58:03,335
that was in 1992 rules.

1511
00:58:03,335 --> 00:58:04,369
That would be one option,

1512
00:58:04,369 --> 00:58:05,329
another option would

1513
00:58:05,329 --> 00:58:07,580
be dropped

1514
00:58:07,580 --> 00:58:09,350
back from that
definition of

1515
00:58:09,350 --> 00:58:11,090
high-value farmland

1516
00:58:11,090 --> 00:58:13,009
and define harbor
high-value.

1517
00:58:13,009 --> 00:58:14,479
Finally, and only
as class one,

1518
00:58:14,479 --> 00:58:17,180
class two prime
unique for purposes

1519
00:58:17,180 --> 00:58:20,419
of which uses are
authorized in form zones.

1520
00:58:20,419 --> 00:58:22,099
And then finally,
the option

1521
00:58:22,099 --> 00:58:23,569
that we recommend to you,

1522
00:58:23,569 --> 00:58:25,160
and that is stick

1523
00:58:25,160 --> 00:58:27,530
with the legislature's
definition.

1524
00:58:27,530 --> 00:58:31,399
With this one exception
about the soils on

1525
00:58:31,399 --> 00:58:32,839
the harbor bench on

1526
00:58:32,839 --> 00:58:35,849
which lily bulbs and
hydrangeas are grown.

1527
00:58:37,510 --> 00:58:38,689
Mr.

1528
00:58:38,689 --> 00:58:40,820
Chair, I would think that

1529
00:58:40,820 --> 00:58:44,540
the last edition
should be included,

1530
00:58:44,540 --> 00:58:46,685
but there was
also testimony

1531
00:58:46,685 --> 00:58:49,310
about from some farmers
in Jefferson County,

1532
00:58:49,310 --> 00:58:51,019
particularly in the need

1533
00:58:51,019 --> 00:58:52,730
to include the
irrigated lands in

1534
00:58:52,730 --> 00:58:54,199
Jefferson County and then

1535
00:58:54,199 --> 00:58:57,409
similar similar country
in Eastern Oregon.

1536
00:58:57,409 --> 00:58:59,494
I was impressed with

1537
00:58:59,494 --> 00:59:01,339
the testimony and the need

1538
00:59:01,339 --> 00:59:02,510
for that to be included.

1539
00:59:02,510 --> 00:59:05,885
So I would favor

1540
00:59:05,885 --> 00:59:09,769
option for with both
of those additions,

1541
00:59:09,769 --> 00:59:11,450
the inclusion of the
irrigated land in

1542
00:59:11,450 --> 00:59:13,879
Eastern Oregon is described
in the testimony.

1543
00:59:13,879 --> 00:59:15,829
There is a definition of

1544
00:59:15,829 --> 00:59:20,044
irrigated land on
page ten can be used.

1545
00:59:20,044 --> 00:59:22,879
Which ten of I think

1546
00:59:22,879 --> 00:59:27,109
it's in the draft and
in our position paper,

1547
00:59:27,109 --> 00:59:30,059
if I recall, just
made him no.

1548
00:59:34,990 --> 00:59:37,730
That's the definition
of irrigated

1549
00:59:37,730 --> 00:59:39,410
over there where
it's a minor issue.

1550
00:59:39,410 --> 00:59:40,970
We'll get to that
later on, but

1551
00:59:40,970 --> 00:59:43,039
it is of course related

1552
00:59:43,039 --> 00:59:45,800
because when you determine

1553
00:59:45,800 --> 00:59:49,109
what high-value
finally is,

1554
00:59:49,109 --> 00:59:51,105
the soil rating is

1555
00:59:51,105 --> 00:59:53,339
often related

1556
00:59:53,339 --> 00:59:54,779
to whether it's
irrigated or not.

1557
00:59:54,779 --> 00:59:55,800
It can be affected.

1558
00:59:55,800 --> 00:59:59,190
It can go from a class
six to a class and to

1559
00:59:59,190 --> 01:00:01,650
potentially or class II

1560
01:00:01,650 --> 01:00:03,509
or class forward
to a class too.

1561
01:00:03,509 --> 01:00:05,774
If irrigation
water is applied,

1562
01:00:05,774 --> 01:00:07,170
it would be a gym.

1563
01:00:07,170 --> 01:00:08,804
You know something about

1564
01:00:08,804 --> 01:00:10,139
irrigated lands in

1565
01:00:10,139 --> 01:00:11,279
Central and
Eastern Oregon.

1566
01:00:11,279 --> 01:00:12,420
And there are probably
some other people

1567
01:00:12,420 --> 01:00:14,535
here who do as well.

1568
01:00:14,535 --> 01:00:16,889
Is it not, is
it not the case

1569
01:00:16,889 --> 01:00:20,579
that an awful lot
of irrigated land,

1570
01:00:20,579 --> 01:00:22,649
probably the land that

1571
01:00:22,649 --> 01:00:24,750
was owned or was
referred to by

1572
01:00:24,750 --> 01:00:27,164
the witness from
Jefferson County

1573
01:00:27,164 --> 01:00:29,785
at the last hearing.

1574
01:00:29,785 --> 01:00:31,759
If it's irrigated, it

1575
01:00:31,759 --> 01:00:33,499
is prime or unique and it

1576
01:00:33,499 --> 01:00:35,150
would be a class

1577
01:00:35,150 --> 01:00:36,710
two and it wouldn't
be high-value.

1578
01:00:36,710 --> 01:00:37,220
Finally,

1579
01:00:37,220 --> 01:00:39,020
a good percentage of
Eastern Oregon would

1580
01:00:39,020 --> 01:00:40,099
be class one or

1581
01:00:40,099 --> 01:00:41,390
two if it could
get water to it?

1582
01:00:41,390 --> 01:00:42,994
That's correct.

1583
01:00:42,994 --> 01:00:44,600
They were talking
about water

1584
01:00:44,600 --> 01:00:45,680
and land already
irrigated.

1585
01:00:45,680 --> 01:00:46,010
Yeah.

1586
01:00:46,010 --> 01:00:47,750
And most of the land that

1587
01:00:47,750 --> 01:00:50,090
the farmers from
Jefferson County

1588
01:00:50,090 --> 01:00:51,500
are talking about art,

1589
01:00:51,500 --> 01:00:53,149
that land is
under irrigation.

1590
01:00:53,149 --> 01:00:54,679
It's those
high-value crops

1591
01:00:54,679 --> 01:00:56,360
that are grown on
the garlic seeds,

1592
01:00:56,360 --> 01:00:59,014
the mint, and so on.

1593
01:00:59,014 --> 01:01:01,520
But it wasn't clear
to me that it's in

1594
01:01:01,520 --> 01:01:03,260
the Southern
present definition.

1595
01:01:03,260 --> 01:01:05,075
I'd want to be sure
that that's included.

1596
01:01:05,075 --> 01:01:06,710
Well, doesn't mean I

1597
01:01:06,710 --> 01:01:08,540
don't I don't see
any reason to let it

1598
01:01:08,540 --> 01:01:10,190
possibly fall through
the cracks they were

1599
01:01:10,190 --> 01:01:11,419
concerned about
and it seemed

1600
01:01:11,419 --> 01:01:12,605
to be appropriate concern.

1601
01:01:12,605 --> 01:01:14,390
Doesn't the definition
of irrigated

1602
01:01:14,390 --> 01:01:17,809
take care of it?

1603
01:01:17,809 --> 01:01:20,090
Not necessarily.

1604
01:01:20,090 --> 01:01:22,970
A lamb. Lamb could be
irrigated and still not

1605
01:01:22,970 --> 01:01:26,374
be a class one or two
of our primary unique.

1606
01:01:26,374 --> 01:01:29,870
You can you're printing
your iteration of

1607
01:01:29,870 --> 01:01:32,494
any irrigated land because

1608
01:01:32,494 --> 01:01:35,240
if it is irrigated,
being farmed.

1609
01:01:35,240 --> 01:01:37,999
Now, as we heard
testimony yesterday,

1610
01:01:37,999 --> 01:01:39,559
there's lot of land
in Washington County

1611
01:01:39,559 --> 01:01:40,699
that people said
are in fact

1612
01:01:40,699 --> 01:01:41,869
marginal land and yet

1613
01:01:41,869 --> 01:01:45,154
they're making very
productive use of it.

1614
01:01:45,154 --> 01:01:47,600
And with modern, modern

1615
01:01:47,600 --> 01:01:49,114
farming techniques,
butter knowledge,

1616
01:01:49,114 --> 01:01:50,840
I think that can be
true and I think we can

1617
01:01:50,840 --> 01:01:53,390
define some of
this too finally,

1618
01:01:53,390 --> 01:01:55,280
and exclude a lot
of land that really

1619
01:01:55,280 --> 01:01:57,830
is important to the
agricultural mistake.

1620
01:01:57,830 --> 01:01:59,569
And I don't want to just

1621
01:01:59,569 --> 01:02:01,069
assume that the land that

1622
01:02:01,069 --> 01:02:02,420
they testified about in

1623
01:02:02,420 --> 01:02:04,325
Jefferson County
is included.

1624
01:02:04,325 --> 01:02:07,369
I would like to be
certainly don't

1625
01:02:07,369 --> 01:02:08,584
see any reason
to exclude it.

1626
01:02:08,584 --> 01:02:10,970
I'm not so sure that
Jefferson County

1627
01:02:10,970 --> 01:02:12,965
constitutes
Eastern Oregon.

1628
01:02:12,965 --> 01:02:15,349
I'd like to ask handling
to come up here

1629
01:02:15,349 --> 01:02:18,500
and let me let me ask
a question first.

1630
01:02:18,500 --> 01:02:21,619
We want to bring up
irrigated lands.

1631
01:02:21,619 --> 01:02:22,925
It's a minor issue

1632
01:02:22,925 --> 01:02:25,219
under page ten and

1633
01:02:25,219 --> 01:02:26,869
the memo now, is that
what we're doing?

1634
01:02:26,869 --> 01:02:28,190
We're going to take
on the question

1635
01:02:28,190 --> 01:02:29,884
of irrigated lands now,

1636
01:02:29,884 --> 01:02:32,134
I think art is trying
to tie it with what?

1637
01:02:32,134 --> 01:02:33,500
Well, I guess I want

1638
01:02:33,500 --> 01:02:34,669
to get a clear indication.

1639
01:02:34,669 --> 01:02:35,719
Are we going to
confront that

1640
01:02:35,719 --> 01:02:36,769
issue and make that set

1641
01:02:36,769 --> 01:02:38,900
of decisions now, or
are we going to wait?

1642
01:02:38,900 --> 01:02:41,689
But I think the issue
is whether you want to

1643
01:02:41,689 --> 01:02:45,499
expand the definition
of high-value finally,

1644
01:02:45,499 --> 01:02:47,690
and that's in
the draft rules

1645
01:02:47,690 --> 01:02:50,225
to include all
irrigated land.

1646
01:02:50,225 --> 01:02:52,039
That's the issue back on

1647
01:02:52,039 --> 01:02:54,544
page ten is separate.

1648
01:02:54,544 --> 01:02:55,670
I don t think
it's separate.

1649
01:02:55,670 --> 01:02:56,839
I think we need to

1650
01:02:56,839 --> 01:02:57,949
make that decision in

1651
01:02:57,949 --> 01:02:59,914
the context of what
the definition is.

1652
01:02:59,914 --> 01:03:02,180
I mean, it's sure.

1653
01:03:02,180 --> 01:03:04,790
Why don't we take up I

1654
01:03:04,790 --> 01:03:06,709
was going to say that
the department has

1655
01:03:06,709 --> 01:03:08,569
done some further work
on the definition

1656
01:03:08,569 --> 01:03:10,189
of what constituted

1657
01:03:10,189 --> 01:03:11,539
constitutes
irrigated land,

1658
01:03:11,539 --> 01:03:13,700
with water resources
and with the shoots

1659
01:03:13,700 --> 01:03:16,174
County and has come up
with some language.

1660
01:03:16,174 --> 01:03:19,324
We think that
satisfies everybody.

1661
01:03:19,324 --> 01:03:21,560
So if you want to
get to that of

1662
01:03:21,560 --> 01:03:23,479
what's what
constitutes irrigated

1663
01:03:23,479 --> 01:03:25,910
for determining whether it

1664
01:03:25,910 --> 01:03:29,069
might then be high-value
farmland or not.

1665
01:03:29,800 --> 01:03:32,509
Some land is irrigated.

1666
01:03:32,509 --> 01:03:33,590
Logic errors are talking

1667
01:03:33,590 --> 01:03:35,074
about what is irrigated.

1668
01:03:35,074 --> 01:03:36,470
And then we can go
back to talking

1669
01:03:36,470 --> 01:03:38,255
about good high-value.

1670
01:03:38,255 --> 01:03:38,960
Okay.

1671
01:03:38,960 --> 01:03:41,819
Is that okay? Let's
go to page ten.

1672
01:03:41,860 --> 01:03:43,700
Locker by John.

1673
01:03:43,700 --> 01:03:44,599
I apologize.

1674
01:03:44,599 --> 01:03:46,669
I just wanted to
get to procedural.

1675
01:03:46,669 --> 01:03:48,605
Understanding where
we're headed okay.

1676
01:03:48,605 --> 01:03:50,644
Handling item one,

1677
01:03:50,644 --> 01:03:52,730
irrigated lands,
minor issues,

1678
01:03:52,730 --> 01:03:55,489
page ten of our 211 paper,

1679
01:03:55,489 --> 01:03:57,949
I'd like to we might
as well see if there's

1680
01:03:57,949 --> 01:03:59,779
any other folks that are

1681
01:03:59,779 --> 01:04:01,805
interested in
participating as well.

1682
01:04:01,805 --> 01:04:04,865
Okay. We've got we've
got a rep. Now,

1683
01:04:04,865 --> 01:04:06,990
are we talking about

1684
01:04:06,990 --> 01:04:09,110
the you say you've

1685
01:04:09,110 --> 01:04:10,849
modified the definition
of irrigated,

1686
01:04:10,849 --> 01:04:12,424
isn't what we see
in front of us?

1687
01:04:12,424 --> 01:04:14,315
Or do you have
another heterogeneous

1688
01:04:14,315 --> 01:04:16,175
have a further
modification.

1689
01:04:16,175 --> 01:04:18,229
Okay, propose Are
you ready to handle?

1690
01:04:18,229 --> 01:04:20,899
So you might also
want to get out

1691
01:04:20,899 --> 01:04:23,390
your February 17th draft,

1692
01:04:23,390 --> 01:04:25,549
which is on page five.

1693
01:04:25,549 --> 01:04:27,889
In the definition
runs from lines

1694
01:04:27,889 --> 01:04:29,899
18 to 23. Alright.

1695
01:04:29,899 --> 01:04:31,579
That the same
definition is in

1696
01:04:31,579 --> 01:04:34,534
the page ten of the paper?

1697
01:04:34,534 --> 01:04:35,569
Correct.

1698
01:04:35,569 --> 01:04:37,220
And I'll let me give you

1699
01:04:37,220 --> 01:04:39,140
the modifications
and then I'll

1700
01:04:39,140 --> 01:04:40,849
explain why the need

1701
01:04:40,849 --> 01:04:43,820
for the further
modification.

1702
01:04:43,820 --> 01:04:46,294
Just to note that at
the last meeting,

1703
01:04:46,294 --> 01:04:49,249
you directed us to
discuss the definition

1704
01:04:49,249 --> 01:04:52,504
of irrigated land
with water resources.

1705
01:04:52,504 --> 01:04:54,979
Particularly, we
were concerned about

1706
01:04:54,979 --> 01:04:57,739
the issue of the
irrigation districts and

1707
01:04:57,739 --> 01:04:59,449
whether how clear on

1708
01:04:59,449 --> 01:05:01,189
what the appropriate
language was for

1709
01:05:01,189 --> 01:05:03,049
deciding whether
something was

1710
01:05:03,049 --> 01:05:05,074
reasonably irrigated.

1711
01:05:05,074 --> 01:05:07,910
And we did that.

1712
01:05:07,910 --> 01:05:10,729
We made some
modifications.

1713
01:05:10,729 --> 01:05:13,490
And then a further
discussion I

1714
01:05:13,490 --> 01:05:16,370
had a couple of days
ago with Catherine,

1715
01:05:16,370 --> 01:05:18,875
moral planner with
the shoots county,

1716
01:05:18,875 --> 01:05:21,020
it became clear that
we could modify this

1717
01:05:21,020 --> 01:05:23,179
even further and cover

1718
01:05:23,179 --> 01:05:24,260
the land that needed to be

1719
01:05:24,260 --> 01:05:25,910
covered and also
come up with

1720
01:05:25,910 --> 01:05:29,315
a much clearer
definition and

1721
01:05:29,315 --> 01:05:31,129
eliminate this issue of

1722
01:05:31,129 --> 01:05:33,694
what's reasonable
to be irrigated.

1723
01:05:33,694 --> 01:05:36,409
So let me just note if

1724
01:05:36,409 --> 01:05:39,784
you go to page
five, line 20,

1725
01:05:39,784 --> 01:05:42,005
and after where it says

1726
01:05:42,005 --> 01:05:45,259
is if it is currently
watered comma,

1727
01:05:45,259 --> 01:05:49,159
delete the next four
words it says is not

1728
01:05:49,159 --> 01:05:54,240
watered but and insert or.

1729
01:05:54,490 --> 01:05:58,324
Then go to line 21.

1730
01:05:58,324 --> 01:06:02,855
After the first use of
the word irrigation.

1731
01:06:02,855 --> 01:06:06,409
Then delete the rest

1732
01:06:06,409 --> 01:06:07,459
of that line
beginning with

1733
01:06:07,459 --> 01:06:09,379
the word or all
the way through

1734
01:06:09,379 --> 01:06:13,114
the end of that
definition on line 23.

1735
01:06:13,114 --> 01:06:15,859
And after that,

1736
01:06:15,859 --> 01:06:18,815
the term irrigation
on line 21,

1737
01:06:18,815 --> 01:06:22,010
add the following words.

1738
01:06:22,010 --> 01:06:26,390
Including such tracks,
well, greetings,

1739
01:06:26,390 --> 01:06:36,120
such tracks that receive

1740
01:06:37,780 --> 01:06:42,140
water for irrigation water

1741
01:06:42,140 --> 01:06:46,859
or for water,
water for four.

1742
01:06:48,190 --> 01:06:59,089
From a water or
Irrigation District.

1743
01:06:59,089 --> 01:07:00,840
Period.

1744
01:07:03,670 --> 01:07:07,280
District, just out of
curiosity as district,

1745
01:07:07,280 --> 01:07:09,019
an all-inclusive term,

1746
01:07:09,019 --> 01:07:11,090
there are water companies.

1747
01:07:11,090 --> 01:07:13,295
There are other means.

1748
01:07:13,295 --> 01:07:14,510
That would be our intent

1749
01:07:14,510 --> 01:07:16,324
and understanding. Okay.

1750
01:07:16,324 --> 01:07:18,020
Your intent and
understanding

1751
01:07:18,020 --> 01:07:19,429
as a district
would include

1752
01:07:19,429 --> 01:07:21,050
any kind of
organization that

1753
01:07:21,050 --> 01:07:22,700
furnishes water
for agriculture.

1754
01:07:22,700 --> 01:07:24,185
And that is correct.

1755
01:07:24,185 --> 01:07:25,940
That's a good
question on that.

1756
01:07:25,940 --> 01:07:27,170
I'm a member of

1757
01:07:27,170 --> 01:07:29,149
the muddy creek
irrigation project and

1758
01:07:29,149 --> 01:07:30,950
that project is different
from a district and

1759
01:07:30,950 --> 01:07:32,929
I don't really think
that covers that.

1760
01:07:32,929 --> 01:07:34,640
I think if you used
the word district,

1761
01:07:34,640 --> 01:07:35,900
people are gonna
be running.

1762
01:07:35,900 --> 01:07:38,660
Two are asked to
find out what what

1763
01:07:38,660 --> 01:07:40,010
district is and it's

1764
01:07:40,010 --> 01:07:41,720
probably define
water district.

1765
01:07:41,720 --> 01:07:44,390
It is It's got
its own limited

1766
01:07:44,390 --> 01:07:45,994
to what's in the statute.

1767
01:07:45,994 --> 01:07:47,360
Because there are also

1768
01:07:47,360 --> 01:07:48,919
a private water companies

1769
01:07:48,919 --> 01:07:50,689
and there are
water projects,

1770
01:07:50,689 --> 01:07:51,755
they still may
be districts.

1771
01:07:51,755 --> 01:07:52,370
I don't know.

1772
01:07:52,370 --> 01:07:53,659
Well, the question
I know that there

1773
01:07:53,659 --> 01:07:55,100
are private
water companies

1774
01:07:55,100 --> 01:07:56,359
that function is districts

1775
01:07:56,359 --> 01:07:58,490
that are not districts.

1776
01:07:58,490 --> 01:08:01,250
In those situations,
aren't you hovered

1777
01:08:01,250 --> 01:08:03,559
because they're
going to have water.

1778
01:08:03,559 --> 01:08:05,600
It's gonna be
currently watered. It.

1779
01:08:05,600 --> 01:08:06,620
Let me let me go back

1780
01:08:06,620 --> 01:08:09,829
through the definition so

1781
01:08:09,829 --> 01:08:12,859
that it basically
would read it says

1782
01:08:12,859 --> 01:08:14,165
an area where tract is

1783
01:08:14,165 --> 01:08:16,325
irrigated if it is
currently water.

1784
01:08:16,325 --> 01:08:17,809
So this will cover

1785
01:08:17,809 --> 01:08:20,465
land that is actually
has water to it.

1786
01:08:20,465 --> 01:08:24,140
There are situations
where land gets water,

1787
01:08:24,140 --> 01:08:26,015
whether it's from
treated effluent

1788
01:08:26,015 --> 01:08:27,529
or on-site springs where

1789
01:08:27,529 --> 01:08:29,060
the water does not go off

1790
01:08:29,060 --> 01:08:31,189
site or there's a
high water table.

1791
01:08:31,189 --> 01:08:32,960
So there's not a water
right, involved,

1792
01:08:32,960 --> 01:08:35,614
but it is actually
irrigated.

1793
01:08:35,614 --> 01:08:37,459
And then the following

1794
01:08:37,459 --> 01:08:38,540
language and then says,

1795
01:08:38,540 --> 01:08:40,219
or has established rights

1796
01:08:40,219 --> 01:08:42,634
to use water
for irrigation.

1797
01:08:42,634 --> 01:08:44,539
In discussions with

1798
01:08:44,539 --> 01:08:45,920
the Department of
Water Resources,

1799
01:08:45,920 --> 01:08:47,539
that language is
broad enough to

1800
01:08:47,539 --> 01:08:49,670
cover the wide variety of

1801
01:08:49,670 --> 01:08:51,559
situations where
people have

1802
01:08:51,559 --> 01:08:53,494
a right for
irrigation water

1803
01:08:53,494 --> 01:08:54,829
could be from
court decree,

1804
01:08:54,829 --> 01:08:56,390
it could be from
groundwater or it

1805
01:08:56,390 --> 01:08:58,744
could be from
in-stream, whatever.

1806
01:08:58,744 --> 01:09:01,129
Well, it's a good point
because there's also

1807
01:09:01,129 --> 01:09:02,660
direct appropriation
that's not

1808
01:09:02,660 --> 01:09:04,370
tied up with the
district at all, right?

1809
01:09:04,370 --> 01:09:06,500
But it doesn't need
any qualification

1810
01:09:06,500 --> 01:09:08,000
after the word irrigation,
you don't need it.

1811
01:09:08,000 --> 01:09:09,695
I simply say,
how's established

1812
01:09:09,695 --> 01:09:12,319
rights to use water
for irrigation period?

1813
01:09:12,319 --> 01:09:14,090
Yeah, we talked
about that.

1814
01:09:14,090 --> 01:09:17,600
The only reason we
added that language,

1815
01:09:17,600 --> 01:09:19,910
including such tracks,

1816
01:09:19,910 --> 01:09:22,925
we simply weren't sure.

1817
01:09:22,925 --> 01:09:25,489
There are situations
where technically,

1818
01:09:25,489 --> 01:09:26,824
at least as we
understand it,

1819
01:09:26,824 --> 01:09:29,194
the district or
company or whatever,

1820
01:09:29,194 --> 01:09:30,980
holds the water right,

1821
01:09:30,980 --> 01:09:34,895
and somehow provides
it to a landowner.

1822
01:09:34,895 --> 01:09:37,669
We didn't in
the land maybe

1823
01:09:37,669 --> 01:09:39,020
irrigated or it may have

1824
01:09:39,020 --> 01:09:40,520
been on a seasonal basis.

1825
01:09:40,520 --> 01:09:42,229
We didn't want someone
to come in and say,

1826
01:09:42,229 --> 01:09:44,809
Well, I'm not getting
the water now.

1827
01:09:44,809 --> 01:09:47,329
I don't technically
have the water right.

1828
01:09:47,329 --> 01:09:48,455
The district has it.

1829
01:09:48,455 --> 01:09:49,820
So that's why we added

1830
01:09:49,820 --> 01:09:52,385
the including such
tracks language.

1831
01:09:52,385 --> 01:09:54,380
Now maybe Ron Campbell is

1832
01:09:54,380 --> 01:09:56,269
here from Department
of Water Resources.

1833
01:09:56,269 --> 01:09:58,114
There's another term
besides water or

1834
01:09:58,114 --> 01:09:59,329
irrigation district

1835
01:09:59,329 --> 01:10:01,204
that will cover
the C here.

1836
01:10:01,204 --> 01:10:04,310
That's actually why
don't we I mean,

1837
01:10:04,310 --> 01:10:06,440
you may have the
buying water

1838
01:10:06,440 --> 01:10:07,880
from Corps of Engineers

1839
01:10:07,880 --> 01:10:09,650
stored water and
then you're getting

1840
01:10:09,650 --> 01:10:10,700
your land
regularly or have

1841
01:10:10,700 --> 01:10:11,884
the ability to
irrigate it.

1842
01:10:11,884 --> 01:10:13,129
Project.

1843
01:10:13,129 --> 01:10:14,840
Which, well, it's not

1844
01:10:14,840 --> 01:10:17,524
even a project to
project with the course.

1845
01:10:17,524 --> 01:10:19,159
If there isn't,
maybe there's

1846
01:10:19,159 --> 01:10:21,140
another term besides
district that

1847
01:10:21,140 --> 01:10:22,790
covers the studies were

1848
01:10:22,790 --> 01:10:24,844
currently watered
would catch those.

1849
01:10:24,844 --> 01:10:26,600
The currently watered
would cover that.

1850
01:10:26,600 --> 01:10:28,350
That's true.

1851
01:10:28,690 --> 01:10:31,324
Are comfortable you
feel with this.

1852
01:10:31,324 --> 01:10:32,569
I'm Ron Campbell with

1853
01:10:32,569 --> 01:10:34,745
water resources
department.

1854
01:10:34,745 --> 01:10:37,969
In excuse me, I might

1855
01:10:37,969 --> 01:10:40,879
recommend using the
word water provider in

1856
01:10:40,879 --> 01:10:43,069
place of water
district to address

1857
01:10:43,069 --> 01:10:45,290
any concerns that you

1858
01:10:45,290 --> 01:10:47,914
want water or
irrigation provider.

1859
01:10:47,914 --> 01:10:51,724
For other provider, you
could add 0 clause,

1860
01:10:51,724 --> 01:10:53,164
district or
other provider.

1861
01:10:53,164 --> 01:10:54,155
Then we've got the word

1862
01:10:54,155 --> 01:10:55,310
because district is in

1863
01:10:55,310 --> 01:11:00,019
statute from water or
irrigation or well,

1864
01:11:00,019 --> 01:11:02,284
from a provider of water.

1865
01:11:02,284 --> 01:11:04,009
Water or irrigation

1866
01:11:04,009 --> 01:11:06,269
district or
other provider.

1867
01:11:07,180 --> 01:11:09,529
Perhaps he could
read it once.

1868
01:11:09,529 --> 01:11:11,510
So we all have the
same language from

1869
01:11:11,510 --> 01:11:14,660
a water or irrigation
district or provider.

1870
01:11:14,660 --> 01:11:17,099
That would be fine.

1871
01:11:17,260 --> 01:11:20,510
Gives us three or four
pair of suspenders or

1872
01:11:20,510 --> 01:11:24,110
provider or other provider
or other provider.

1873
01:11:24,110 --> 01:11:26,160
Correct?

1874
01:11:27,220 --> 01:11:29,045
We're getting there.

1875
01:11:29,045 --> 01:11:29,600
Mr.

1876
01:11:29,600 --> 01:11:31,640
Chair, can I ask one
other question that says

1877
01:11:31,640 --> 01:11:34,939
including such tracks
that receive water,

1878
01:11:34,939 --> 01:11:37,580
it sounds to me
that the intent

1879
01:11:37,580 --> 01:11:40,639
was that you have the
right to receive it.

1880
01:11:40,639 --> 01:11:42,920
If it's a provider,
you may have the right

1881
01:11:42,920 --> 01:11:44,780
to receive it and the
ability to use it,

1882
01:11:44,780 --> 01:11:46,849
but you're not
using it right now.

1883
01:11:46,849 --> 01:11:48,290
So it would
seem to me that

1884
01:11:48,290 --> 01:11:49,610
you might want to insert

1885
01:11:49,610 --> 01:11:53,550
after the word that from
before the receive,

1886
01:11:55,090 --> 01:11:57,649
or were rather
after received

1887
01:11:57,649 --> 01:12:00,620
that they have such
treks receive or

1888
01:12:00,620 --> 01:12:01,160
have the right to

1889
01:12:01,160 --> 01:12:02,659
receive water
for irrigation

1890
01:12:02,659 --> 01:12:05,000
from water
irrigation districts

1891
01:12:05,000 --> 01:12:07,050
or other providers.

1892
01:12:07,600 --> 01:12:11,509
How does that or
you got to run art.

1893
01:12:11,509 --> 01:12:14,420
Are you trying to say that

1894
01:12:14,420 --> 01:12:17,389
any of the ground that may

1895
01:12:17,389 --> 01:12:19,864
be within the
boundaries of

1896
01:12:19,864 --> 01:12:23,465
water providers run
talks about NO.

1897
01:12:23,465 --> 01:12:26,639
Would be subject?

1898
01:12:27,610 --> 01:12:30,559
Not necessarily
because they might be

1899
01:12:30,559 --> 01:12:32,960
within the boundaries
but not have access to.

1900
01:12:32,960 --> 01:12:34,730
There might be
some that are

1901
01:12:34,730 --> 01:12:36,979
maybe some water rights
on a piece of ground,

1902
01:12:36,979 --> 01:12:39,170
but there may not be
enough water available

1903
01:12:39,170 --> 01:12:43,369
to provide that ground
with the water.

1904
01:12:43,369 --> 01:12:44,510
What do you how do

1905
01:12:44,510 --> 01:12:45,844
you take that
into account?

1906
01:12:45,844 --> 01:12:47,480
Well, I'm thinking
the other side of it,

1907
01:12:47,480 --> 01:12:49,489
I'm thinking particularly
of a parcel of land

1908
01:12:49,489 --> 01:12:51,679
that is not now irrigated,

1909
01:12:51,679 --> 01:12:54,180
but it can be irrigated

1910
01:12:54,370 --> 01:12:58,430
at the choice
of the farmer.

1911
01:12:58,430 --> 01:13:01,759
And if it's irrigated,

1912
01:13:01,759 --> 01:13:02,915
It's very productive soil.

1913
01:13:02,915 --> 01:13:05,015
So if he chooses not
to irrigate it though,

1914
01:13:05,015 --> 01:13:06,529
even though the water even

1915
01:13:06,529 --> 01:13:07,909
though there is a
water right there,

1916
01:13:07,909 --> 01:13:08,840
then one other problem it

1917
01:13:08,840 --> 01:13:10,130
seems to me if the soil

1918
01:13:10,130 --> 01:13:12,739
produce good crops and
if water is available,

1919
01:13:12,739 --> 01:13:14,000
we don't want to
exclude it from

1920
01:13:14,000 --> 01:13:15,470
protected
agricultural land and

1921
01:13:15,470 --> 01:13:17,134
that's that's all
I have to say.

1922
01:13:17,134 --> 01:13:18,289
Let me just see

1923
01:13:18,289 --> 01:13:19,250
if there's anybody
here has got to

1924
01:13:19,250 --> 01:13:21,229
legal clarification
on this in

1925
01:13:21,229 --> 01:13:23,419
a water in a normal
water, right?

1926
01:13:23,419 --> 01:13:24,950
And you don't irrigate
for five years,

1927
01:13:24,950 --> 01:13:25,970
you lose your right.

1928
01:13:25,970 --> 01:13:27,424
So that is taken care of.

1929
01:13:27,424 --> 01:13:28,940
You don't have a right
anymore if you don't

1930
01:13:28,940 --> 01:13:32,059
irrigate within a
water district,

1931
01:13:32,059 --> 01:13:35,525
what happens?
Ryan, do you know?

1932
01:13:35,525 --> 01:13:36,875
I beg your pardon.

1933
01:13:36,875 --> 01:13:39,289
Okay. The question I
was posing is there

1934
01:13:39,289 --> 01:13:41,060
with a normal water rights

1935
01:13:41,060 --> 01:13:42,440
that's an individual
water, right.

1936
01:13:42,440 --> 01:13:43,189
If you don't use it for

1937
01:13:43,189 --> 01:13:44,930
five years, you lose it.

1938
01:13:44,930 --> 01:13:46,699
Not necessarily.

1939
01:13:46,699 --> 01:13:47,674
Well, unless it's in

1940
01:13:47,674 --> 01:13:50,119
a statutory exempt
theme because you're

1941
01:13:50,119 --> 01:13:53,960
in a federal program
or something,

1942
01:13:53,960 --> 01:13:55,399
it is subject to

1943
01:13:55,399 --> 01:13:58,235
cancellation depending
on circumstances.

1944
01:13:58,235 --> 01:13:59,119
There aren't a lot of

1945
01:13:59,119 --> 01:14:00,919
circumstances where
the water right.

1946
01:14:00,919 --> 01:14:02,210
Is on cancelled, that

1947
01:14:02,210 --> 01:14:04,250
the wire has
not been used,

1948
01:14:04,250 --> 01:14:06,785
but it's legally
been forfeited,

1949
01:14:06,785 --> 01:14:09,240
whether it's been
canceled or not.

1950
01:14:09,250 --> 01:14:11,749
But that's not getting
to my question.

1951
01:14:11,749 --> 01:14:14,750
My question is in
water district,

1952
01:14:14,750 --> 01:14:17,134
if you have the right
to get the water,

1953
01:14:17,134 --> 01:14:19,400
you're adding the
boundary and it shows in

1954
01:14:19,400 --> 01:14:21,650
the certification that
this area certified,

1955
01:14:21,650 --> 01:14:23,179
but you don't
take water for

1956
01:14:23,179 --> 01:14:25,775
five years or forever.

1957
01:14:25,775 --> 01:14:28,070
Do you still have
a right to get it

1958
01:14:28,070 --> 01:14:29,570
or is that constructively

1959
01:14:29,570 --> 01:14:31,130
change the districts?

1960
01:14:31,130 --> 01:14:32,629
If you are in the district

1961
01:14:32,629 --> 01:14:35,150
and you have the right

1962
01:14:35,150 --> 01:14:36,169
to purchase that water.

1963
01:14:36,169 --> 01:14:38,389
If there's water
available.

1964
01:14:38,389 --> 01:14:42,259
There is no there is
no time limitation

1965
01:14:42,259 --> 01:14:45,800
on non-use of water. Bill.

1966
01:14:45,800 --> 01:14:46,639
Can I ask that question

1967
01:14:46,639 --> 01:14:47,494
another way to get it?

1968
01:14:47,494 --> 01:14:49,010
What I think arch
got the same time.

1969
01:14:49,010 --> 01:14:50,810
I've got a lot of
people here with

1970
01:14:50,810 --> 01:14:51,650
a lot of knowledge about

1971
01:14:51,650 --> 01:14:52,910
what goes on
on the ground.

1972
01:14:52,910 --> 01:14:55,069
Are there
circumstances when

1973
01:14:55,069 --> 01:14:57,049
water is available,

1974
01:14:57,049 --> 01:14:59,120
but for some reason,

1975
01:14:59,120 --> 01:15:01,490
the owner OR operator

1976
01:15:01,490 --> 01:15:03,470
elects to not
take advantage of

1977
01:15:03,470 --> 01:15:05,389
it and thereby elevate

1978
01:15:05,389 --> 01:15:08,464
this and do on high-value
farmland parcel.

1979
01:15:08,464 --> 01:15:10,039
I mean, are
those out there?

1980
01:15:10,039 --> 01:15:10,760
I think that's what art

1981
01:15:10,760 --> 01:15:11,659
was getting at is there's

1982
01:15:11,659 --> 01:15:13,250
some some
artificial reasons

1983
01:15:13,250 --> 01:15:15,140
why the parcel could
be high value.

1984
01:15:15,140 --> 01:15:17,045
It could be
irrigated is fair,

1985
01:15:17,045 --> 01:15:19,010
but they're electing
to not do it either.

1986
01:15:19,010 --> 01:15:20,929
The price of the
water is too high.

1987
01:15:20,929 --> 01:15:22,069
There's some other reason

1988
01:15:22,069 --> 01:15:23,270
why they're not doing it.

1989
01:15:23,270 --> 01:15:24,530
We've covered priorities.

1990
01:15:24,530 --> 01:15:26,090
I mean, that's takes
care of itself.

1991
01:15:26,090 --> 01:15:26,899
And I don't know,

1992
01:15:26,899 --> 01:15:28,160
maybe there are
no circumstances.

1993
01:15:28,160 --> 01:15:29,210
Maybe you're asked to

1994
01:15:29,210 --> 01:15:30,934
get it, you always get it.

1995
01:15:30,934 --> 01:15:33,050
Or they may simply
want to use it as

1996
01:15:33,050 --> 01:15:35,165
a state rather
than as a farm.

1997
01:15:35,165 --> 01:15:35,900
Yeah.

1998
01:15:35,900 --> 01:15:36,559
And I just don't know how

1999
01:15:36,559 --> 01:15:37,520
much of that is
going on and

2000
01:15:37,520 --> 01:15:39,514
it's a way for us to know.

2001
01:15:39,514 --> 01:15:41,000
Well, the handily
in isolation

2002
01:15:41,000 --> 01:15:42,980
you guys missed, it
does happen though.

2003
01:15:42,980 --> 01:15:45,439
I'm sure it does
happen how much?

2004
01:15:45,439 --> 01:15:46,909
It's hard to say.

2005
01:15:46,909 --> 01:15:48,559
There are parcels of

2006
01:15:48,559 --> 01:15:50,435
land in irrigation
districts.

2007
01:15:50,435 --> 01:15:52,534
This is the parcels
are not watered.

2008
01:15:52,534 --> 01:15:54,290
I like to erase the

2009
01:15:54,290 --> 01:15:55,550
problems that
we have here in

2010
01:15:55,550 --> 01:15:56,929
the valley and there are

2011
01:15:56,929 --> 01:15:58,400
a lot of folks that
have water rights,

2012
01:15:58,400 --> 01:16:00,019
some of them which would
have been forfeited,

2013
01:16:00,019 --> 01:16:01,114
had been looked at.

2014
01:16:01,114 --> 01:16:02,810
But this is an area
where you can grow

2015
01:16:02,810 --> 01:16:03,950
either irrigated crops or

2016
01:16:03,950 --> 01:16:05,285
non irrigated crops.

2017
01:16:05,285 --> 01:16:06,409
But a great many people

2018
01:16:06,409 --> 01:16:07,370
have water rights and I'm

2019
01:16:07,370 --> 01:16:10,040
concerned with
arts proposal

2020
01:16:10,040 --> 01:16:11,599
that we're going
to bring in land

2021
01:16:11,599 --> 01:16:12,680
that would not
otherwise be

2022
01:16:12,680 --> 01:16:13,759
high value if we say

2023
01:16:13,759 --> 01:16:15,365
all of it, that has
a water, right?

2024
01:16:15,365 --> 01:16:17,779
Even though these
people are perhaps

2025
01:16:17,779 --> 01:16:21,024
on the land were
not designated.

2026
01:16:21,024 --> 01:16:24,365
I think that the
legislature to Caribbean

2027
01:16:24,365 --> 01:16:26,509
with a definition of

2028
01:16:26,509 --> 01:16:27,694
high-value here
in the valley,

2029
01:16:27,694 --> 01:16:29,720
which really gets
at most of that.

2030
01:16:29,720 --> 01:16:31,159
But I think there would
be land that would

2031
01:16:31,159 --> 01:16:32,720
be brought in or

2032
01:16:32,720 --> 01:16:33,980
could be brought in under

2033
01:16:33,980 --> 01:16:35,870
a definition which says
all irrigated land.

2034
01:16:35,870 --> 01:16:37,190
Because if you have
a water right,

2035
01:16:37,190 --> 01:16:38,600
It's irrigated are

2036
01:16:38,600 --> 01:16:40,580
all irrigate
bowl and yeah,

2037
01:16:40,580 --> 01:16:42,170
I guess would be
another and that

2038
01:16:42,170 --> 01:16:44,284
concerns me to Hector.

2039
01:16:44,284 --> 01:16:45,920
Well, that was the
original language

2040
01:16:45,920 --> 01:16:47,510
which we took out
or we've taken

2041
01:16:47,510 --> 01:16:48,980
out and runs new proposal

2042
01:16:48,980 --> 01:16:51,890
which was reasonably
available

2043
01:16:51,890 --> 01:16:52,970
and that was the
whole subject to

2044
01:16:52,970 --> 01:16:54,589
this minor
discussion of what's

2045
01:16:54,589 --> 01:16:56,524
reasonably wins it
reasonably available.

2046
01:16:56,524 --> 01:16:58,160
And you move
completely away

2047
01:16:58,160 --> 01:17:00,185
from that to a
current circumstance.

2048
01:17:00,185 --> 01:17:03,440
Definition. And I'm
not saying that's bad.

2049
01:17:03,440 --> 01:17:04,520
I just was curious as to

2050
01:17:04,520 --> 01:17:06,650
how much you're losing,

2051
01:17:06,650 --> 01:17:07,730
if anything, by taking

2052
01:17:07,730 --> 01:17:08,839
that other category out.

2053
01:17:08,839 --> 01:17:09,500
And I don't know one of

2054
01:17:09,500 --> 01:17:10,910
the ironies of
this is that

2055
01:17:10,910 --> 01:17:14,405
the Oregon Department
of Agriculture,

2056
01:17:14,405 --> 01:17:16,459
I believe they
have actually

2057
01:17:16,459 --> 01:17:18,019
a request into

2058
01:17:18,019 --> 01:17:19,909
the water resources
department when

2059
01:17:19,909 --> 01:17:21,485
the department
was doing It's

2060
01:17:21,485 --> 01:17:24,665
lamb and valley basin plan

2061
01:17:24,665 --> 01:17:28,414
for tens of
thousands of CFS

2062
01:17:28,414 --> 01:17:30,139
of water to be
reserved for

2063
01:17:30,139 --> 01:17:33,029
future irrigation in
the Willamette Valley.

2064
01:17:33,160 --> 01:17:35,180
To irrigate thousands of

2065
01:17:35,180 --> 01:17:37,475
more acres that is
currently are good.

2066
01:17:37,475 --> 01:17:38,869
And they were
demanding that

2067
01:17:38,869 --> 01:17:41,194
they get that water
reserve for that purpose.

2068
01:17:41,194 --> 01:17:41,659
I don't know if that

2069
01:17:41,659 --> 01:17:42,800
occurred when the
baseline plan

2070
01:17:42,800 --> 01:17:44,884
was Weber's
comment on that?

2071
01:17:44,884 --> 01:17:47,959
Yeah, I had Dino
are running.

2072
01:17:47,959 --> 01:17:48,709
You may know how much was

2073
01:17:48,709 --> 01:17:49,670
we actually reserved in

2074
01:17:49,670 --> 01:17:51,380
the final basin plan

2075
01:17:51,380 --> 01:17:53,299
for future agricultural
irrigation?

2076
01:17:53,299 --> 01:17:55,025
None of it was reserved

2077
01:17:55,025 --> 01:17:57,089
through the Basin Plan.

2078
01:17:57,089 --> 01:18:01,900
There was some legal
complications whereby we

2079
01:18:01,900 --> 01:18:03,760
found out that we
could not do that

2080
01:18:03,760 --> 01:18:06,955
through a that particular
rule-making action.

2081
01:18:06,955 --> 01:18:10,720
And that is a
separate process.

2082
01:18:10,720 --> 01:18:12,354
In other words,
took care of water

2083
01:18:12,354 --> 01:18:14,320
and we're still working

2084
01:18:14,320 --> 01:18:16,195
on it through that
other process.

2085
01:18:16,195 --> 01:18:18,504
But the requests
still does sit there

2086
01:18:18,504 --> 01:18:20,110
for reserve reservation of

2087
01:18:20,110 --> 01:18:21,774
water for future
agricultural use?

2088
01:18:21,774 --> 01:18:22,870
Yes.

2089
01:18:22,870 --> 01:18:24,220
Mr. Chairman?

2090
01:18:24,220 --> 01:18:27,400
Yeah. I asked
cannulated come up a

2091
01:18:27,400 --> 01:18:28,810
while ago and I think

2092
01:18:28,810 --> 01:18:30,849
that meeting going
comfortable,

2093
01:18:30,849 --> 01:18:33,400
but I wanted to ask
him to comment on

2094
01:18:33,400 --> 01:18:37,689
on what effect you
see this proposal

2095
01:18:37,689 --> 01:18:42,380
having the or this
suggested by aren't having

2096
01:18:42,380 --> 01:18:46,354
on counties over in

2097
01:18:46,354 --> 01:18:48,484
the eastern part
of the state.

2098
01:18:48,484 --> 01:18:50,510
Before we answer that,

2099
01:18:50,510 --> 01:18:51,560
I think I'd like

2100
01:18:51,560 --> 01:18:53,390
a little clarification
or this.

2101
01:18:53,390 --> 01:18:55,100
As the discussion
we moved over to

2102
01:18:55,100 --> 01:18:57,500
the city, moved
back irrigation.

2103
01:18:57,500 --> 01:18:59,839
We, the subject
gotten much

2104
01:18:59,839 --> 01:19:02,359
broadened and I
would personally

2105
01:19:02,359 --> 01:19:03,545
I would favor including

2106
01:19:03,545 --> 01:19:05,089
all end up subject to be

2107
01:19:05,089 --> 01:19:07,040
irrigated or that can

2108
01:19:07,040 --> 01:19:08,720
be irrigated and
productive land.

2109
01:19:08,720 --> 01:19:10,535
Hi, The issue that I,

2110
01:19:10,535 --> 01:19:12,680
the issue that
I raised was

2111
01:19:12,680 --> 01:19:13,820
on the table before

2112
01:19:13,820 --> 01:19:14,900
we went over
the definition.

2113
01:19:14,900 --> 01:19:17,359
Irrigation was the issue

2114
01:19:17,359 --> 01:19:19,685
raised by the farmers
in Jefferson County.

2115
01:19:19,685 --> 01:19:20,689
And I wanted to be

2116
01:19:20,689 --> 01:19:21,979
certain that
the definition

2117
01:19:21,979 --> 01:19:24,049
included the
irrigated land that

2118
01:19:24,049 --> 01:19:24,830
they described in

2119
01:19:24,830 --> 01:19:26,030
their testimony
because that

2120
01:19:26,030 --> 01:19:27,140
seemed to be
appropriate to

2121
01:19:27,140 --> 01:19:28,760
be in high-value farmland.

2122
01:19:28,760 --> 01:19:32,585
And so I don't I don't
want the issue to be

2123
01:19:32,585 --> 01:19:36,020
construed as beyond that

2124
01:19:36,020 --> 01:19:37,324
for the sake of
this discussion?

2125
01:19:37,324 --> 01:19:41,819
Well, it seemed to
me aren't the tour.

2126
01:19:42,070 --> 01:19:45,470
Widening that
position when you

2127
01:19:45,470 --> 01:19:48,139
mentioned in eastern
Oregon and I thought

2128
01:19:48,139 --> 01:19:51,469
you were including
the whole state

2129
01:19:51,469 --> 01:19:54,140
and your position there.

2130
01:19:54,140 --> 01:19:57,260
Well, but what's
your question?

2131
01:19:57,260 --> 01:19:58,399
The handling
Well, my question

2132
01:19:58,399 --> 01:19:59,600
to handily is
I'd like you to

2133
01:19:59,600 --> 01:20:02,359
comment on before he
comments on a telescope.

2134
01:20:02,359 --> 01:20:03,740
Proposal is what's

2135
01:20:03,740 --> 01:20:05,900
the proposal at
ease to comment on?

2136
01:20:05,900 --> 01:20:07,399
Let's be real clear about

2137
01:20:07,399 --> 01:20:09,540
what the proposal is.

2138
01:20:11,140 --> 01:20:14,660
The 0, the proposal.

2139
01:20:14,660 --> 01:20:16,159
We're talking about
irrigation now

2140
01:20:16,159 --> 01:20:17,454
the definition
of irrigators,

2141
01:20:17,454 --> 01:20:18,590
we're talking about the
definition of, we're

2142
01:20:18,590 --> 01:20:20,255
talking about major issue.

2143
01:20:20,255 --> 01:20:22,549
Number one,
agricultural lands.

2144
01:20:22,549 --> 01:20:25,115
There are four options

2145
01:20:25,115 --> 01:20:27,454
that we should consider.

2146
01:20:27,454 --> 01:20:30,260
The fourth one says
retain the definition

2147
01:20:30,260 --> 01:20:31,670
of the draft rule
with addition

2148
01:20:31,670 --> 01:20:33,605
of other lands
deemed high value.

2149
01:20:33,605 --> 01:20:35,120
And there have
been talking about

2150
01:20:35,120 --> 01:20:36,979
the land used for

2151
01:20:36,979 --> 01:20:38,419
reduction of lilies down

2152
01:20:38,419 --> 01:20:40,805
and lily bulbs down
on the coast here.

2153
01:20:40,805 --> 01:20:42,199
And I said, I think we

2154
01:20:42,199 --> 01:20:44,599
should also
consider including,

2155
01:20:44,599 --> 01:20:46,190
I'll be certain
that the language

2156
01:20:46,190 --> 01:20:50,060
included the land
described by the farmers

2157
01:20:50,060 --> 01:20:51,229
from Jefferson County

2158
01:20:51,229 --> 01:20:52,460
that's irrigated land and

2159
01:20:52,460 --> 01:20:55,910
apparently used for
rather intensive,

2160
01:20:55,910 --> 01:20:57,740
successful agriculture
over there.

2161
01:20:57,740 --> 01:20:59,315
So that's,
that's the issue

2162
01:20:59,315 --> 01:21:01,295
right now as far
as I see it.

2163
01:21:01,295 --> 01:21:02,810
Let me I want to

2164
01:21:02,810 --> 01:21:04,939
understand what the
proposal is is the issue

2165
01:21:04,939 --> 01:21:06,425
to try to identify

2166
01:21:06,425 --> 01:21:09,409
what a witness from
Jefferson County

2167
01:21:09,409 --> 01:21:11,375
said they felt was

2168
01:21:11,375 --> 01:21:12,650
irrigated land that should

2169
01:21:12,650 --> 01:21:14,180
be included high-value,

2170
01:21:14,180 --> 01:21:15,379
or is it applying

2171
01:21:15,379 --> 01:21:18,109
that same definition
to 18 counties in

2172
01:21:18,109 --> 01:21:19,999
Eastern Oregon or
it is applying

2173
01:21:19,999 --> 01:21:21,140
that same definition to

2174
01:21:21,140 --> 01:21:23,299
36 counties in Oregon.

2175
01:21:23,299 --> 01:21:25,430
My proposal was that

2176
01:21:25,430 --> 01:21:28,129
the land described by
those several farmers,

2177
01:21:28,129 --> 01:21:29,149
the described land and

2178
01:21:29,149 --> 01:21:30,260
Jefferson County that's

2179
01:21:30,260 --> 01:21:31,729
irrigated and
indirect culture.

2180
01:21:31,729 --> 01:21:33,230
Now, I wanted to
be certain it

2181
01:21:33,230 --> 01:21:35,014
was included in
the definition.

2182
01:21:35,014 --> 01:21:37,024
So what he's saying
to you, Tom,

2183
01:21:37,024 --> 01:21:39,424
is the question
you're asking.

2184
01:21:39,424 --> 01:21:42,200
If he hadn't gotten
to that question yet.

2185
01:21:42,200 --> 01:21:43,730
He was specifically
trying to

2186
01:21:43,730 --> 01:21:45,289
take care of
Jefferson County.

2187
01:21:45,289 --> 01:21:47,105
But depending on
how he worded it,

2188
01:21:47,105 --> 01:21:48,155
it could have flop apply

2189
01:21:48,155 --> 01:21:49,339
only to Jefferson County.

2190
01:21:49,339 --> 01:21:50,840
It could apply to 18

2191
01:21:50,840 --> 01:21:52,039
counties are 36 counties.

2192
01:21:52,039 --> 01:21:53,735
So that's still
an open question.

2193
01:21:53,735 --> 01:21:56,060
I apparently misunderstood

2194
01:21:56,060 --> 01:21:57,229
where he was coming from.

2195
01:21:57,229 --> 01:21:58,969
He just seemed
to me that he

2196
01:21:58,969 --> 01:22:01,070
was trying to apply

2197
01:22:01,070 --> 01:22:03,920
this scenario
at least to all

2198
01:22:03,920 --> 01:22:05,540
18 it might Eastern Oregon

2199
01:22:05,540 --> 01:22:07,025
and maybe even statewide.

2200
01:22:07,025 --> 01:22:09,379
And that's where
I felt he was

2201
01:22:09,379 --> 01:22:10,819
coming from and that's

2202
01:22:10,819 --> 01:22:12,740
why it's called
handily to.

2203
01:22:12,740 --> 01:22:13,460
But he didn't come up with

2204
01:22:13,460 --> 01:22:14,930
a definition of how
you would get to it.

2205
01:22:14,930 --> 01:22:17,089
So we don't know whether
it would apply to

2206
01:22:17,089 --> 01:22:19,745
all others because he
never defined well,

2207
01:22:19,745 --> 01:22:21,859
art, can I be a
little presumptions

2208
01:22:21,859 --> 01:22:23,914
and make a scenario?

2209
01:22:23,914 --> 01:22:25,459
You are talking about

2210
01:22:25,459 --> 01:22:27,289
a statewide situation and

2211
01:22:27,289 --> 01:22:29,584
ask handily for
his comment.

2212
01:22:29,584 --> 01:22:31,460
I'm glad to have you

2213
01:22:31,460 --> 01:22:32,839
asked heavily
for his comment,

2214
01:22:32,839 --> 01:22:34,430
but let's stick
with what my

2215
01:22:34,430 --> 01:22:36,770
proposal I think
that would be good.

2216
01:22:36,770 --> 01:22:38,630
The issue I raised was

2217
01:22:38,630 --> 01:22:41,060
Jefferson Jefferson
the agricultural

2218
01:22:41,060 --> 01:22:43,130
lands that are irrigate
and Jefferson County,

2219
01:22:43,130 --> 01:22:44,270
which is subject,
I think three

2220
01:22:44,270 --> 01:22:45,830
different farmers
testified from

2221
01:22:45,830 --> 01:22:47,150
Jefferson County
about that and

2222
01:22:47,150 --> 01:22:48,815
I wanted to be sure
that was included.

2223
01:22:48,815 --> 01:22:51,109
Then we moved over
to this other issue.

2224
01:22:51,109 --> 01:22:52,969
And as a matter
of comment,

2225
01:22:52,969 --> 01:22:54,859
I did say I would

2226
01:22:54,859 --> 01:22:55,490
think it'd be good to

2227
01:22:55,490 --> 01:22:56,659
include all
irrigated land,

2228
01:22:56,659 --> 01:22:58,339
but that's not the
issue on the table.

2229
01:22:58,339 --> 01:23:00,710
The issue I raised was
that land that was

2230
01:23:00,710 --> 01:23:01,850
described by I
think there were

2231
01:23:01,850 --> 01:23:03,049
three farmers in Jefferson

2232
01:23:03,049 --> 01:23:04,414
County to repeat again,

2233
01:23:04,414 --> 01:23:06,830
We want handling
to respond to

2234
01:23:06,830 --> 01:23:09,799
the testimony of the
three ranchers or

2235
01:23:09,799 --> 01:23:12,275
farmers from
Jefferson County

2236
01:23:12,275 --> 01:23:13,399
or do we want him to

2237
01:23:13,399 --> 01:23:15,484
respond to your thoughts

2238
01:23:15,484 --> 01:23:18,095
that all irrigated land
should be high-value?

2239
01:23:18,095 --> 01:23:19,475
I'd like why
would he hasn't

2240
01:23:19,475 --> 01:23:21,260
done once you asked
him the question,

2241
01:23:21,260 --> 01:23:21,799
will that handily

2242
01:23:21,799 --> 01:23:23,030
answer whatever
question is.

2243
01:23:23,030 --> 01:23:25,385
Well, how do
you feel about

2244
01:23:25,385 --> 01:23:27,049
the possibility of

2245
01:23:27,049 --> 01:23:29,434
all irrigated land being
high-value handling?

2246
01:23:29,434 --> 01:23:31,039
I'll put it to
you that way.

2247
01:23:31,039 --> 01:23:32,690
Thank you. I'm handling

2248
01:23:32,690 --> 01:23:33,770
Jenkins Union
County Planning

2249
01:23:33,770 --> 01:23:35,285
Director for the record.

2250
01:23:35,285 --> 01:23:37,070
Um, my concern with

2251
01:23:37,070 --> 01:23:39,335
all irrigated lands being

2252
01:23:39,335 --> 01:23:41,089
designated as
high value is

2253
01:23:41,089 --> 01:23:42,829
you're going to
include a lot of

2254
01:23:42,829 --> 01:23:45,350
lands that are what we've

2255
01:23:45,350 --> 01:23:47,779
typically identified
as marginal lands or

2256
01:23:47,779 --> 01:23:49,535
secondary lands that are

2257
01:23:49,535 --> 01:23:51,814
irrigated because
of convenience.

2258
01:23:51,814 --> 01:23:53,630
They may be pastures,

2259
01:23:53,630 --> 01:23:56,359
meadows that are irrigated

2260
01:23:56,359 --> 01:23:59,810
for limited livestock
grazing purposes.

2261
01:23:59,810 --> 01:24:02,180
And they are generally

2262
01:24:02,180 --> 01:24:06,365
either class for FCS
class for soils,

2263
01:24:06,365 --> 01:24:08,164
six or seven soils.

2264
01:24:08,164 --> 01:24:09,979
And my concern
is that you are,

2265
01:24:09,979 --> 01:24:11,420
you're embracing

2266
01:24:11,420 --> 01:24:13,985
those within
this definition.

2267
01:24:13,985 --> 01:24:16,655
And I don't think
that's appropriate.

2268
01:24:16,655 --> 01:24:19,759
Let me you're really
after and I think

2269
01:24:19,759 --> 01:24:22,549
Ron has done a good job in

2270
01:24:22,549 --> 01:24:25,174
working with the
SES and identifying

2271
01:24:25,174 --> 01:24:29,449
the irrigated
high-value soils in

2272
01:24:29,449 --> 01:24:31,760
the list of soils that are

2273
01:24:31,760 --> 01:24:33,110
identified as high value

2274
01:24:33,110 --> 01:24:35,359
for the individual
jurisdictions.

2275
01:24:35,359 --> 01:24:37,429
And if they're irrigated

2276
01:24:37,429 --> 01:24:40,054
class one through
four soils and it has

2277
01:24:40,054 --> 01:24:43,820
been raised that
to a class one or

2278
01:24:43,820 --> 01:24:48,199
two rating than that I
think is appropriate.

2279
01:24:48,199 --> 01:24:49,999
But that is
done internally

2280
01:24:49,999 --> 01:24:52,639
within the rating
system of those soils.

2281
01:24:52,639 --> 01:24:57,440
Okay, everyone, It's
important to note,

2282
01:24:57,440 --> 01:25:00,200
we're beginning to
use this definition

2283
01:25:00,200 --> 01:25:02,885
of irrigated in two ways.

2284
01:25:02,885 --> 01:25:05,779
The way it's used in
the proposed rule is to

2285
01:25:05,779 --> 01:25:08,585
define the land
that is irrigated.

2286
01:25:08,585 --> 01:25:10,460
That means it has
water or it has

2287
01:25:10,460 --> 01:25:12,815
a right to that water.

2288
01:25:12,815 --> 01:25:14,584
And then that as handling

2289
01:25:14,584 --> 01:25:17,915
describes changes to
soil classification

2290
01:25:17,915 --> 01:25:20,960
where it may be a prime
soil or a class one

2291
01:25:20,960 --> 01:25:22,280
or two soil and therefore

2292
01:25:22,280 --> 01:25:24,514
becomes high-value
farmland.

2293
01:25:24,514 --> 01:25:28,309
That is a separate
use of the word.

2294
01:25:28,309 --> 01:25:30,109
And I think
Commissioner Johnson is

2295
01:25:30,109 --> 01:25:32,239
proposing that
the definition of

2296
01:25:32,239 --> 01:25:34,219
high-value farmland

2297
01:25:34,219 --> 01:25:36,769
also include
any other land,

2298
01:25:36,769 --> 01:25:38,494
regardless of soil class

2299
01:25:38,494 --> 01:25:40,009
or how it might
be changed on

2300
01:25:40,009 --> 01:25:41,660
the basis of
irrigation solely

2301
01:25:41,660 --> 01:25:44,180
because it may
be irrigated.

2302
01:25:44,180 --> 01:25:47,149
And we need to be
careful on how we use.

2303
01:25:47,149 --> 01:25:50,149
I came to you with
a language to

2304
01:25:50,149 --> 01:25:53,149
define it for the
first situation,

2305
01:25:53,149 --> 01:25:55,189
how it affects the
soil classification.

2306
01:25:55,189 --> 01:25:57,319
If you then want to change

2307
01:25:57,319 --> 01:25:59,449
the definition
of high value

2308
01:25:59,449 --> 01:26:00,920
to include
irrigated lands.

2309
01:26:00,920 --> 01:26:02,164
That's a different issue.

2310
01:26:02,164 --> 01:26:03,589
It may require

2311
01:26:03,589 --> 01:26:05,389
a different type
of definition.

2312
01:26:05,389 --> 01:26:07,370
Let me put let me see
if I've got that right

2313
01:26:07,370 --> 01:26:10,205
because I agree that's
a concern I've got.

2314
01:26:10,205 --> 01:26:12,289
Handling is
pointing is a few.

2315
01:26:12,289 --> 01:26:15,109
If it's irrigated,
it is class four.

2316
01:26:15,109 --> 01:26:17,389
As a result, it
doesn't fall under

2317
01:26:17,389 --> 01:26:18,439
your high value because

2318
01:26:18,439 --> 01:26:20,090
they'll be under
your high-value,

2319
01:26:20,090 --> 01:26:22,895
you've gotta be
irrigated and glass 1.2?

2320
01:26:22,895 --> 01:26:23,330
Correct.

2321
01:26:23,330 --> 01:26:25,579
Does certain
soils irrigated

2322
01:26:25,579 --> 01:26:27,290
doesn't fit under a
high value, right?

2323
01:26:27,290 --> 01:26:28,849
Certain, certain soils on

2324
01:26:28,849 --> 01:26:30,860
the basis of
irrigation will

2325
01:26:30,860 --> 01:26:32,749
move into either
a prime or

2326
01:26:32,749 --> 01:26:35,690
a class one or
two category.

2327
01:26:35,690 --> 01:26:37,939
There are other
soils that will

2328
01:26:37,939 --> 01:26:41,104
get irrigated that
maybe move 6-4,

2329
01:26:41,104 --> 01:26:43,100
but that would not
make them high

2330
01:26:43,100 --> 01:26:44,119
value unless

2331
01:26:44,119 --> 01:26:45,409
you want to change
the definition.

2332
01:26:45,409 --> 01:26:46,550
But what we're
talking about

2333
01:26:46,550 --> 01:26:49,189
is we're back again to

2334
01:26:49,189 --> 01:26:51,515
the micro issue of
what constitutes

2335
01:26:51,515 --> 01:26:53,570
irrigated under
the definition

2336
01:26:53,570 --> 01:26:54,770
itself of high-value.

2337
01:26:54,770 --> 01:26:56,360
The first phrase under and

2338
01:26:56,360 --> 01:26:57,559
that's where we are.

2339
01:26:57,559 --> 01:26:58,820
And I think the concern is

2340
01:26:58,820 --> 01:27:00,109
that somebody's
we're we're we're

2341
01:27:00,109 --> 01:27:01,730
getting it wrong points
out to the point

2342
01:27:01,730 --> 01:27:03,845
where everything
is irrigated.

2343
01:27:03,845 --> 01:27:06,290
Henley's glass
workforce horse pasture

2344
01:27:06,290 --> 01:27:08,119
is now high-value
and I don't I

2345
01:27:08,119 --> 01:27:09,229
don't think that's where

2346
01:27:09,229 --> 01:27:10,879
we're intending
it to go and I

2347
01:27:10,879 --> 01:27:11,915
don't think that's where

2348
01:27:11,915 --> 01:27:14,315
aren't taken it
either, but we got to.

2349
01:27:14,315 --> 01:27:15,889
It's just what

2350
01:27:15,889 --> 01:27:17,570
constitutes
irrigation then it's

2351
01:27:17,570 --> 01:27:19,265
merely what if it's

2352
01:27:19,265 --> 01:27:20,780
irrevocable. I'm going
to use that word.

2353
01:27:20,780 --> 01:27:22,070
That's another way to
do it if you did it,

2354
01:27:22,070 --> 01:27:23,735
but that's a major
changes my sense.

2355
01:27:23,735 --> 01:27:25,369
Why? My sense is that

2356
01:27:25,369 --> 01:27:27,979
arts concern is
primarily covered.

2357
01:27:27,979 --> 01:27:29,629
I think if you look
at Jefferson County,

2358
01:27:29,629 --> 01:27:33,350
you look at the
definition of high-value.

2359
01:27:33,350 --> 01:27:35,899
Who's who's the
egg expert here?

2360
01:27:35,899 --> 01:27:37,159
Who knows Jefferson County

2361
01:27:37,159 --> 01:27:38,764
better than anyone
else on staff.

2362
01:27:38,764 --> 01:27:40,129
My sense is that the vast

2363
01:27:40,129 --> 01:27:41,584
majority that's
going to come out.

2364
01:27:41,584 --> 01:27:43,040
I'm certainly not he,

2365
01:27:43,040 --> 01:27:45,290
but Jim Johnson told

2366
01:27:45,290 --> 01:27:47,105
me just a few
minutes ago that

2367
01:27:47,105 --> 01:27:50,164
at least the land

2368
01:27:50,164 --> 01:27:52,250
that the witness
was talking about,

2369
01:27:52,250 --> 01:27:54,500
the farmer in
Jefferson County or

2370
01:27:54,500 --> 01:27:56,824
her area is her ranches

2371
01:27:56,824 --> 01:27:58,790
are portions of
it are irrigated.

2372
01:27:58,790 --> 01:28:02,675
And the irrigation
the soil rating

2373
01:28:02,675 --> 01:28:05,074
after irrigation
is class three.

2374
01:28:05,074 --> 01:28:06,410
It is not a class to,

2375
01:28:06,410 --> 01:28:08,389
it is true that
some soils go

2376
01:28:08,389 --> 01:28:10,369
to class two
with irrigation,

2377
01:28:10,369 --> 01:28:12,259
but in her case
that was not true,

2378
01:28:12,259 --> 01:28:14,074
so it stays class three.

2379
01:28:14,074 --> 01:28:15,650
It then does
not come within

2380
01:28:15,650 --> 01:28:17,494
the definition of
phi value farmland.

2381
01:28:17,494 --> 01:28:19,280
How extensive
that situation

2382
01:28:19,280 --> 01:28:20,314
is in Jefferson County?

2383
01:28:20,314 --> 01:28:21,484
We're not able
to tell you now.

2384
01:28:21,484 --> 01:28:22,609
Jim told me it
would take him

2385
01:28:22,609 --> 01:28:25,309
at least 2 h of
work back at

2386
01:28:25,309 --> 01:28:27,380
the office with
the SES and

2387
01:28:27,380 --> 01:28:29,629
some others to try
to run that down.

2388
01:28:29,629 --> 01:28:30,649
So what do we do it for

2389
01:28:30,649 --> 01:28:32,930
the hand the holdings
in Jefferson County,

2390
01:28:32,930 --> 01:28:34,369
You'd have to do
it statewide,

2391
01:28:34,369 --> 01:28:36,110
find out those
circumstances which

2392
01:28:36,110 --> 01:28:38,089
went irrigated three or

2393
01:28:38,089 --> 01:28:40,069
four and it should
still be in high value

2394
01:28:40,069 --> 01:28:42,590
that we need to segment
this discussion.

2395
01:28:42,590 --> 01:28:45,680
Because we,

2396
01:28:45,680 --> 01:28:47,779
can we get past just

2397
01:28:47,779 --> 01:28:49,550
defining what
your a gated,

2398
01:28:49,550 --> 01:28:51,844
which is a past
tense word.

2399
01:28:51,844 --> 01:28:55,790
Not as means watered,
which is past tense.

2400
01:28:55,790 --> 01:28:57,769
Again, we're now
trying to get to

2401
01:28:57,769 --> 01:28:59,449
the future potential or

2402
01:28:59,449 --> 01:29:01,774
capability of
being watered.

2403
01:29:01,774 --> 01:29:04,624
Can be perfectly clear.

2404
01:29:04,624 --> 01:29:07,145
May I ask it Weber,

2405
01:29:07,145 --> 01:29:09,260
for a definition of

2406
01:29:09,260 --> 01:29:13,790
the Department of Ag
on irrigated land?

2407
01:29:13,790 --> 01:29:15,064
No, you may not.

2408
01:29:15,064 --> 01:29:19,249
May I ask you to come
up and comment? No.

2409
01:29:19,249 --> 01:29:21,004
Yes.

2410
01:29:21,004 --> 01:29:24,725
Let us talk
about irrigated.

2411
01:29:24,725 --> 01:29:28,189
What does irrigated
mean here?

2412
01:29:28,189 --> 01:29:30,965
Now, if you think that Ed

2413
01:29:30,965 --> 01:29:34,550
knows has gotten I
think it's got an idea.

2414
01:29:34,550 --> 01:29:36,770
You have a definition of

2415
01:29:36,770 --> 01:29:37,939
irrigated that would be

2416
01:29:37,939 --> 01:29:40,080
different than
what we have here.

2417
01:29:43,900 --> 01:29:45,439
He has a right.

2418
01:29:45,439 --> 01:29:49,310
One thing I wanted to

2419
01:29:49,310 --> 01:29:51,170
do is to provide
some information

2420
01:29:51,170 --> 01:29:54,419
so that you can come
to this definition.

2421
01:29:55,210 --> 01:29:57,200
Let R.

2422
01:29:57,200 --> 01:29:59,849
Johnson is talking about.

2423
01:30:02,080 --> 01:30:04,879
Ron has this here

2424
01:30:04,879 --> 01:30:08,134
in these listing
of soil series.

2425
01:30:08,134 --> 01:30:10,100
In Eastern Oregon.

2426
01:30:10,100 --> 01:30:12,890
There are some
lands that would be

2427
01:30:12,890 --> 01:30:17,074
prime lands if they
had adequate moisture.

2428
01:30:17,074 --> 01:30:18,889
When irrigation is applied

2429
01:30:18,889 --> 01:30:20,930
to those, they
become prime.

2430
01:30:20,930 --> 01:30:22,849
There are also
some lands in

2431
01:30:22,849 --> 01:30:25,790
Eastern Oregon that
lacked moisture,

2432
01:30:25,790 --> 01:30:29,510
that are poor lands
in the class six,

2433
01:30:29,510 --> 01:30:32,059
which is a
structural problem.

2434
01:30:32,059 --> 01:30:33,320
They're very shallow or

2435
01:30:33,320 --> 01:30:37,309
rocky and they will not
become prime lands.

2436
01:30:37,309 --> 01:30:38,719
If arrogated.

2437
01:30:38,719 --> 01:30:40,790
There are some class
seven lands that are

2438
01:30:40,790 --> 01:30:43,354
very deep sandy
soils that if

2439
01:30:43,354 --> 01:30:46,475
arrogated become
We're unique.

2440
01:30:46,475 --> 01:30:48,334
And by unique, I mean,

2441
01:30:48,334 --> 01:30:49,970
they are in lands
in which they

2442
01:30:49,970 --> 01:30:51,530
raise alfalfa,

2443
01:30:51,530 --> 01:30:52,790
in which you cannot find

2444
01:30:52,790 --> 01:30:54,679
good soils elsewhere.

2445
01:30:54,679 --> 01:30:56,840
Or they raised
potatoes in which

2446
01:30:56,840 --> 01:30:59,269
cannot find elsewhere
in fertilizer.

2447
01:30:59,269 --> 01:31:03,004
And so in areas where
moisture is limiting

2448
01:31:03,004 --> 01:31:05,059
and the soils could be

2449
01:31:05,059 --> 01:31:08,450
prime, irrigation
and introduced.

2450
01:31:08,450 --> 01:31:10,999
They are identified
by the SES as

2451
01:31:10,999 --> 01:31:14,630
prime when irrigation
is present.

2452
01:31:14,630 --> 01:31:17,120
And those are
probably the soils

2453
01:31:17,120 --> 01:31:20,000
that artists
talking about.

2454
01:31:20,000 --> 01:31:22,520
And in the listing
of prime and

2455
01:31:22,520 --> 01:31:26,760
unique that Ron
got from SES,

2456
01:31:26,920 --> 01:31:29,255
they have two lists.

2457
01:31:29,255 --> 01:31:30,320
One is prime without

2458
01:31:30,320 --> 01:31:31,685
water and was
prime with water.

2459
01:31:31,685 --> 01:31:32,179
That right?

2460
01:31:32,179 --> 01:31:32,915
Correct.

2461
01:31:32,915 --> 01:31:35,660
So I think it's covered
in your definition

2462
01:31:35,660 --> 01:31:38,029
in your given
that explanation,

2463
01:31:38,029 --> 01:31:39,200
I will move the

2464
01:31:39,200 --> 01:31:41,974
Ronnie redefinition
of irrigated.

2465
01:31:41,974 --> 01:31:43,864
We're on page five.

2466
01:31:43,864 --> 01:31:45,260
Ron, would you like to

2467
01:31:45,260 --> 01:31:46,040
read it again before we

2468
01:31:46,040 --> 01:31:47,794
vote to make sure we're
all we're consuming.

2469
01:31:47,794 --> 01:31:50,539
And I also want to
clarify something

2470
01:31:50,539 --> 01:31:54,620
because I don't mean
to prolong the issue,

2471
01:31:54,620 --> 01:31:57,110
but I think the intent of

2472
01:31:57,110 --> 01:31:59,959
the definition I
proposed is a little

2473
01:31:59,959 --> 01:32:03,140
narrower than what
Ed was suggesting in

2474
01:32:03,140 --> 01:32:05,149
that there are a lot

2475
01:32:05,149 --> 01:32:07,399
of lands in
Eastern Oregon,

2476
01:32:07,399 --> 01:32:10,640
particularly
that have soils

2477
01:32:10,640 --> 01:32:14,015
that if they
were irrigated,

2478
01:32:14,015 --> 01:32:18,634
in a hypothetical sense,
could become prime.

2479
01:32:18,634 --> 01:32:19,520
That's a different issue.

2480
01:32:19,520 --> 01:32:20,764
And let's just talk about

2481
01:32:20,764 --> 01:32:22,789
this definition
is intended

2482
01:32:22,789 --> 01:32:24,500
to be those that actually,

2483
01:32:24,500 --> 01:32:26,420
as we've written,
have water or

2484
01:32:26,420 --> 01:32:28,580
have a right to the water.

2485
01:32:28,580 --> 01:32:29,960
There's a lot of
lands that have

2486
01:32:29,960 --> 01:32:31,910
no right to water
and will never get

2487
01:32:31,910 --> 01:32:34,220
it that
theoretically could

2488
01:32:34,220 --> 01:32:35,570
become prime if they got

2489
01:32:35,570 --> 01:32:36,845
the separate
issue when you

2490
01:32:36,845 --> 01:32:39,830
want to cover those
with the definition.

2491
01:32:39,830 --> 01:32:43,085
Okay. We have a motion
on the definition.

2492
01:32:43,085 --> 01:32:43,940
Who's reading it?

2493
01:32:43,940 --> 01:32:47,750
So we're voting on
beginning on line 19.

2494
01:32:47,750 --> 01:32:50,105
On page five of the draft,

2495
01:32:50,105 --> 01:32:52,625
he would say an
area or tract is

2496
01:32:52,625 --> 01:32:56,434
irrigated if it is
currently watered comma,

2497
01:32:56,434 --> 01:32:59,375
or has established rights

2498
01:32:59,375 --> 01:33:02,360
to use water
for irrigation,

2499
01:33:02,360 --> 01:33:04,909
including such tracks that

2500
01:33:04,909 --> 01:33:08,179
receive water for
irrigation from a

2501
01:33:08,179 --> 01:33:09,770
water or irrigation

2502
01:33:09,770 --> 01:33:11,795
district or
other provider,

2503
01:33:11,795 --> 01:33:16,550
period. Mr.

2504
01:33:16,550 --> 01:33:18,304
Chair, can I ask one
question to clarify?

2505
01:33:18,304 --> 01:33:19,669
You made a comment
at the outset

2506
01:33:19,669 --> 01:33:20,750
that left me very

2507
01:33:20,750 --> 01:33:22,400
nervous around in
which they had

2508
01:33:22,400 --> 01:33:24,484
to do with the phrase
currently watered.

2509
01:33:24,484 --> 01:33:26,480
You don't say
currently irrigated,

2510
01:33:26,480 --> 01:33:27,739
you say currently watered.

2511
01:33:27,739 --> 01:33:29,105
And you use the
phrase may have

2512
01:33:29,105 --> 01:33:31,354
a high water table, e.g.

2513
01:33:31,354 --> 01:33:33,290
I. Had read that prior to

2514
01:33:33,290 --> 01:33:35,029
that point to mean
currently waters

2515
01:33:35,029 --> 01:33:37,280
anything which
is artificially

2516
01:33:37,280 --> 01:33:40,430
watered or by controller
artificial means.

2517
01:33:40,430 --> 01:33:41,854
It's got a high
water table.

2518
01:33:41,854 --> 01:33:42,950
It's taken into account in

2519
01:33:42,950 --> 01:33:44,060
the SES rating that gives

2520
01:33:44,060 --> 01:33:46,084
it a three or four
or five or six.

2521
01:33:46,084 --> 01:33:48,289
And I want to make sure

2522
01:33:48,289 --> 01:33:50,194
that currently watered is

2523
01:33:50,194 --> 01:33:51,350
artificial ear by

2524
01:33:51,350 --> 01:33:52,879
artificial or
controlled means

2525
01:33:52,879 --> 01:33:54,020
and doesn't mean somebody

2526
01:33:54,020 --> 01:33:55,880
out there who's got
a high water table,

2527
01:33:55,880 --> 01:33:57,410
which should have
been taken into

2528
01:33:57,410 --> 01:33:58,760
account when they got
their soil rating.

2529
01:33:58,760 --> 01:33:59,629
That's right, isn't it?

2530
01:33:59,629 --> 01:34:04,340
That's correct. Okay.
Question, discussion.

2531
01:34:04,340 --> 01:34:06,650
Any further? Okay. All
those in favor Aye.

2532
01:34:06,650 --> 01:34:08,675
Aye. Opposed. No.

2533
01:34:08,675 --> 01:34:10,505
Carries unanimously.

2534
01:34:10,505 --> 01:34:10,910
Okay.

2535
01:34:10,910 --> 01:34:13,160
Now, let's go back to

2536
01:34:13,160 --> 01:34:21,180
arts to page we're
at page five.

2537
01:34:21,820 --> 01:34:25,070
And take up the issue

2538
01:34:25,070 --> 01:34:28,355
of that arts we
started with,

2539
01:34:28,355 --> 01:34:29,600
which is application of

2540
01:34:29,600 --> 01:34:31,474
high-value farmland
definition.

2541
01:34:31,474 --> 01:34:32,719
When we just start with

2542
01:34:32,719 --> 01:34:33,709
the question of whether

2543
01:34:33,709 --> 01:34:37,640
we want to insignificant

2544
01:34:37,640 --> 01:34:39,409
expansion of the
definition to take

2545
01:34:39,409 --> 01:34:42,140
up other lands that

2546
01:34:42,140 --> 01:34:44,940
are not under the
current definition.

2547
01:34:47,560 --> 01:34:52,069
Well, alternative
four says

2548
01:34:52,069 --> 01:34:53,099
retained the definition of

2549
01:34:53,099 --> 01:34:53,809
the draft rule with

2550
01:34:53,809 --> 01:34:54,994
addition of other
land has been

2551
01:34:54,994 --> 01:34:56,840
high-value, right?

2552
01:34:56,840 --> 01:34:58,730
I don't know
precisely what

2553
01:34:58,730 --> 01:34:59,810
that language means with

2554
01:34:59,810 --> 01:35:00,799
addition of other lands

2555
01:35:00,799 --> 01:35:02,089
deemed high value means

2556
01:35:02,089 --> 01:35:05,045
the lily bulbs and
again, Curry County.

2557
01:35:05,045 --> 01:35:06,440
I agree with a lily bulbs

2558
01:35:06,440 --> 01:35:08,449
and curry County and

2559
01:35:08,449 --> 01:35:09,980
we may have gotten
an answer to

2560
01:35:09,980 --> 01:35:12,439
my other concern
by the testimony.

2561
01:35:12,439 --> 01:35:14,060
However, I don't know if

2562
01:35:14,060 --> 01:35:15,980
anyone from Jefferson
County is here.

2563
01:35:15,980 --> 01:35:17,274
Maybe a blur.

2564
01:35:17,274 --> 01:35:18,649
Batson's here,
maybe she can

2565
01:35:18,649 --> 01:35:20,704
answer the question
if she thinks that

2566
01:35:20,704 --> 01:35:22,429
covers that land
because I think she has

2567
01:35:22,429 --> 01:35:25,339
some knowledge of
their concern.

2568
01:35:25,339 --> 01:35:28,265
There are Batson, thousand
pounds of Oregon.

2569
01:35:28,265 --> 01:35:30,620
Unfortunately,
we don't have

2570
01:35:30,620 --> 01:35:32,194
a list of the soil
mapping units

2571
01:35:32,194 --> 01:35:34,144
that are prime when

2572
01:35:34,144 --> 01:35:35,960
irrigated was I
guess is what Ed,

2573
01:35:35,960 --> 01:35:37,219
whoever said he thought

2574
01:35:37,219 --> 01:35:39,169
these tools would
be covered under,

2575
01:35:39,169 --> 01:35:41,224
he wasn't sure if they
were class one or two.

2576
01:35:41,224 --> 01:35:43,369
Leslie Elliott
testified to

2577
01:35:43,369 --> 01:35:45,920
you and we asked her
about this also,

2578
01:35:45,920 --> 01:35:47,300
whether she thought that

2579
01:35:47,300 --> 01:35:50,300
the definition
that would include

2580
01:35:50,300 --> 01:35:52,040
if lands were
irrigated and

2581
01:35:52,040 --> 01:35:53,285
all the ones she's
concerned about

2582
01:35:53,285 --> 01:35:54,410
are if they were

2583
01:35:54,410 --> 01:35:56,464
prime unique
class one or two,

2584
01:35:56,464 --> 01:35:58,310
when irrigated, that would

2585
01:35:58,310 --> 01:36:00,335
protect the land she's
concerned about,

2586
01:36:00,335 --> 01:36:02,135
and she said she
didn't think so

2587
01:36:02,135 --> 01:36:04,565
because some of the
soils were Class II.

2588
01:36:04,565 --> 01:36:07,234
Now they may be prime

2589
01:36:07,234 --> 01:36:10,115
under Ed's
definition of prime,

2590
01:36:10,115 --> 01:36:11,930
we don't have a
list of those soil,

2591
01:36:11,930 --> 01:36:13,354
so there's just concern.

2592
01:36:13,354 --> 01:36:15,664
We don t know,
you don t know if

2593
01:36:15,664 --> 01:36:16,909
they're being
protected and

2594
01:36:16,909 --> 01:36:18,304
they're very
valuable soils.

2595
01:36:18,304 --> 01:36:19,549
And they are under

2596
01:36:19,549 --> 01:36:20,959
pressure and these farmers

2597
01:36:20,959 --> 01:36:21,935
are very concerned
about it.

2598
01:36:21,935 --> 01:36:24,185
Wouldn't those come
out as SCS prime?

2599
01:36:24,185 --> 01:36:27,305
That was my Department
of Agriculture.

2600
01:36:27,305 --> 01:36:28,340
I don't know if
they're using

2601
01:36:28,340 --> 01:36:29,975
the FCS definition
of prime.

2602
01:36:29,975 --> 01:36:31,790
That's what we're
tied to bite

2603
01:36:31,790 --> 01:36:33,169
statute as the definition

2604
01:36:33,169 --> 01:36:35,150
of prime by the SCS.

2605
01:36:35,150 --> 01:36:39,440
Is this something that
a phone call to Mrs.

2606
01:36:39,440 --> 01:36:41,645
Elliott who
apparently knows

2607
01:36:41,645 --> 01:36:45,230
the names of her
soil mapping units,

2608
01:36:45,230 --> 01:36:48,350
and then a phone
call to SES,

2609
01:36:48,350 --> 01:36:50,930
which has a computer list.

2610
01:36:50,930 --> 01:36:53,210
The prime soils
with irrigated

2611
01:36:53,210 --> 01:36:55,595
could resolve in
an hour or so.

2612
01:36:55,595 --> 01:36:58,099
I think absolutely
shows me

2613
01:36:58,099 --> 01:37:00,559
that we have the list
of those soils so well

2614
01:37:00,559 --> 01:37:02,915
that we would
need would be

2615
01:37:02,915 --> 01:37:05,750
hurt soil mapping
units from her farm.

2616
01:37:05,750 --> 01:37:06,349
Of course.

2617
01:37:06,349 --> 01:37:06,769
And I think that's

2618
01:37:06,769 --> 01:37:07,985
a very reasonable
way to okay.

2619
01:37:07,985 --> 01:37:10,745
Why don't we make a
brief comment too.

2620
01:37:10,745 --> 01:37:12,109
There are some class

2621
01:37:12,109 --> 01:37:14,360
4.5 soils that
are just across

2622
01:37:14,360 --> 01:37:16,100
the county line of the
South and the shoots

2623
01:37:16,100 --> 01:37:19,685
County that are
prime by SES.

2624
01:37:19,685 --> 01:37:21,740
So I think it's
fairly logical to

2625
01:37:21,740 --> 01:37:24,064
conclude that
that entire bowl,

2626
01:37:24,064 --> 01:37:25,640
and I'm very familiar
with that area,

2627
01:37:25,640 --> 01:37:26,990
that entire
bowl that she's

2628
01:37:26,990 --> 01:37:28,535
in has got to be prime.

2629
01:37:28,535 --> 01:37:29,779
I mean, I just
can't conceive it's

2630
01:37:29,779 --> 01:37:31,505
not prime. Let's
check it out.

2631
01:37:31,505 --> 01:37:33,949
But I think there is

2632
01:37:33,949 --> 01:37:36,125
a 95% probability
that's Brian.

2633
01:37:36,125 --> 01:37:36,964
We certainly hope so.

2634
01:37:36,964 --> 01:37:38,535
That'd be great. We do
need to check it out.

2635
01:37:38,535 --> 01:37:39,740
One of that area that

2636
01:37:39,740 --> 01:37:40,999
the commissioner
troop is talking

2637
01:37:40,999 --> 01:37:42,260
about includes one
of the farmers

2638
01:37:42,260 --> 01:37:43,550
the testified last time,

2639
01:37:43,550 --> 01:37:44,689
That's Virgil Harper and

2640
01:37:44,689 --> 01:37:47,270
IIS Express the same
concerns to me.

2641
01:37:47,270 --> 01:37:50,314
This has been this
has also been kind of

2642
01:37:50,314 --> 01:37:52,040
accelerated in
their case with

2643
01:37:52,040 --> 01:37:53,059
the destination resort

2644
01:37:53,059 --> 01:37:54,289
issue that's
going on there.

2645
01:37:54,289 --> 01:37:55,610
And so I've been in

2646
01:37:55,610 --> 01:37:57,049
contact with both
of them alive.

2647
01:37:57,049 --> 01:37:57,350
Mr.

2648
01:37:57,350 --> 01:37:59,210
Chairman, I'd like to

2649
01:37:59,210 --> 01:38:00,109
ask the question that I

2650
01:38:00,109 --> 01:38:01,564
haven't had answered yet.

2651
01:38:01,564 --> 01:38:04,280
Is it within our
purview that we could

2652
01:38:04,280 --> 01:38:08,450
extend the list to
class 1.2 down 233.

2653
01:38:08,450 --> 01:38:09,739
Can we do that?
Are we tied to

2654
01:38:09,739 --> 01:38:11,300
statute and so
on on what can

2655
01:38:11,300 --> 01:38:14,180
be done with
irrigation slash?

2656
01:38:14,180 --> 01:38:15,050
In other words,
could we simply

2657
01:38:15,050 --> 01:38:16,984
say why it's 12.3?

2658
01:38:16,984 --> 01:38:18,724
In our rules, it's less.

2659
01:38:18,724 --> 01:38:21,319
I think you can say class
12.3 on your roles.

2660
01:38:21,319 --> 01:38:22,969
So the statutory
definition is

2661
01:38:22,969 --> 01:38:24,995
for a lot of record
purposes only.

2662
01:38:24,995 --> 01:38:27,319
And I think you have
the authority to expand

2663
01:38:27,319 --> 01:38:28,400
that definition for other

2664
01:38:28,400 --> 01:38:30,600
purposes if you want to.

2665
01:38:30,610 --> 01:38:32,870
Of course, we
need to know what

2666
01:38:32,870 --> 01:38:35,255
the impact right before
we made the decision.

2667
01:38:35,255 --> 01:38:37,219
So we've discussed this.

2668
01:38:37,219 --> 01:38:39,394
So we get that by Sunday

2669
01:38:39,394 --> 01:38:42,300
Sunday afternoon when
we're still here.

2670
01:38:42,610 --> 01:38:44,945
Well, let's let's just

2671
01:38:44,945 --> 01:38:46,490
find out this
specific thing.

2672
01:38:46,490 --> 01:38:47,435
Can we do that?

2673
01:38:47,435 --> 01:38:48,829
You can run them tomorrow

2674
01:38:48,829 --> 01:38:50,630
somebody and rely
on Ryan to get

2675
01:38:50,630 --> 01:38:51,964
this one mapping units for

2676
01:38:51,964 --> 01:38:52,939
Jefferson County and have

2677
01:38:52,939 --> 01:38:54,154
occurred, can resolve it.

2678
01:38:54,154 --> 01:38:56,449
So we will we can

2679
01:38:56,449 --> 01:38:59,150
still go ahead and
settle this issue,

2680
01:38:59,150 --> 01:39:01,279
but with the understanding

2681
01:39:01,279 --> 01:39:03,170
that we may reopen it
if we get something,

2682
01:39:03,170 --> 01:39:04,519
some information
that causes us

2683
01:39:04,519 --> 01:39:06,769
to want to reopen,
it's a good idea.

2684
01:39:06,769 --> 01:39:09,450
Good idea. Okay.

2685
01:39:09,880 --> 01:39:12,920
Further discussion of

2686
01:39:12,920 --> 01:39:14,885
definition of
high-value farmlands.

2687
01:39:14,885 --> 01:39:16,759
I want to raise
another issue

2688
01:39:16,759 --> 01:39:17,689
and the only reason

2689
01:39:17,689 --> 01:39:18,814
I'm going to raise it now,

2690
01:39:18,814 --> 01:39:20,839
in fact, we've lost

2691
01:39:20,839 --> 01:39:22,459
one of our
commission members,

2692
01:39:22,459 --> 01:39:25,039
but I'll bring you
up to speed letter.

2693
01:39:25,039 --> 01:39:27,050
I want to raise
another issue now and

2694
01:39:27,050 --> 01:39:28,640
the only reason I
raise it now is

2695
01:39:28,640 --> 01:39:30,650
because it may have
some applicability

2696
01:39:30,650 --> 01:39:32,194
to high-value.

2697
01:39:32,194 --> 01:39:34,700
And on the surface
it's going to

2698
01:39:34,700 --> 01:39:35,960
sound more like
I'm talking

2699
01:39:35,960 --> 01:39:37,609
about the farm
dwelling criteria.

2700
01:39:37,609 --> 01:39:38,420
But the solution to

2701
01:39:38,420 --> 01:39:39,860
the problem may
be in how we

2702
01:39:39,860 --> 01:39:43,249
structure high-value
versus other USU land.

2703
01:39:43,249 --> 01:39:45,424
And so I want to
raise the issue now.

2704
01:39:45,424 --> 01:39:50,240
I'm concerned about
what we heard yesterday

2705
01:39:50,240 --> 01:39:51,649
from a number of

2706
01:39:51,649 --> 01:39:52,999
people and that's
that there's

2707
01:39:52,999 --> 01:39:54,289
only really one kind of

2708
01:39:54,289 --> 01:39:56,464
legitimate agriculture
and Oregon.

2709
01:39:56,464 --> 01:40:00,559
And that's full-time
commercial agriculture,

2710
01:40:00,559 --> 01:40:02,449
which produces a family

2711
01:40:02,449 --> 01:40:04,564
wage earning income
on the farm.

2712
01:40:04,564 --> 01:40:07,655
And nothing else is
legitimate agriculture.

2713
01:40:07,655 --> 01:40:09,950
I think there
is another kind

2714
01:40:09,950 --> 01:40:11,150
of agriculture that

2715
01:40:11,150 --> 01:40:12,379
we have been in

2716
01:40:12,379 --> 01:40:15,664
a position of
protecting since 1973.

2717
01:40:15,664 --> 01:40:19,280
And that is the
predominant agriculture

2718
01:40:19,280 --> 01:40:21,980
for a given region
of the state.

2719
01:40:21,980 --> 01:40:23,389
It could be a
small region,

2720
01:40:23,389 --> 01:40:26,224
it could be a larger
region of the state.

2721
01:40:26,224 --> 01:40:29,270
And the idea of

2722
01:40:29,270 --> 01:40:31,190
tying dwelling unit just

2723
01:40:31,190 --> 01:40:32,239
to give you an example,

2724
01:40:32,239 --> 01:40:34,490
the idea of tying
a dwelling unit

2725
01:40:34,490 --> 01:40:36,379
to a definition of

2726
01:40:36,379 --> 01:40:38,629
full-time
agriculture and e.g.

2727
01:40:38,629 --> 01:40:41,660
we took the cliff
Carnegie definition.

2728
01:40:41,660 --> 01:40:44,750
I perceive that to
be somewhere in

2729
01:40:44,750 --> 01:40:48,769
the neighborhood of
250,000 gross income.

2730
01:40:48,769 --> 01:40:51,770
And just looking at
a county that I know

2731
01:40:51,770 --> 01:40:55,489
the the indicator
crop is say,

2732
01:40:55,489 --> 01:40:57,889
alfalfa at 300 an acre.

2733
01:40:57,889 --> 01:41:02,419
That would take 883
irrigated acres

2734
01:41:02,419 --> 01:41:04,684
to get a farm dwelling.

2735
01:41:04,684 --> 01:41:07,714
And if you take
one sub zone,

2736
01:41:07,714 --> 01:41:10,100
that's the bend Redmond.

2737
01:41:10,100 --> 01:41:13,070
Let's see, Ben
Redmond, Camillo,

2738
01:41:13,070 --> 01:41:15,650
I forget the name
of the sub zone.

2739
01:41:15,650 --> 01:41:20,270
The median parcel size
is 23 irrigated acres.

2740
01:41:20,270 --> 01:41:22,189
So in order to
be able to get

2741
01:41:22,189 --> 01:41:24,079
a farm dwelling under
that definition,

2742
01:41:24,079 --> 01:41:27,439
you would have to
aggregate 36 parcels,

2743
01:41:27,439 --> 01:41:29,524
which is obviously absurd.

2744
01:41:29,524 --> 01:41:31,760
There is other kind
of Agriculture

2745
01:41:31,760 --> 01:41:34,445
out there and
possibly one way for

2746
01:41:34,445 --> 01:41:35,929
distinguishing between

2747
01:41:35,929 --> 01:41:39,530
this full-time
commercial agriculture,

2748
01:41:39,530 --> 01:41:42,439
which produces family
wage earning income

2749
01:41:42,439 --> 01:41:44,330
versus agriculture that we

2750
01:41:44,330 --> 01:41:45,845
also want to protect.

2751
01:41:45,845 --> 01:41:49,009
That's a predominant
agriculture in an area.

2752
01:41:49,009 --> 01:41:51,379
Maybe in this
definition of

2753
01:41:51,379 --> 01:41:53,540
what's high value
and what isn't time,

2754
01:41:53,540 --> 01:41:54,274
I really wanted to

2755
01:41:54,274 --> 01:41:55,490
raise that issue
at this point.

2756
01:41:55,490 --> 01:41:55,775
Okay.

2757
01:41:55,775 --> 01:41:57,920
I really think we need to

2758
01:41:57,920 --> 01:42:00,769
hold that until
we get to the

2759
01:42:00,769 --> 01:42:02,899
nearly wanted
to raise it now

2760
01:42:02,899 --> 01:42:06,170
because the definition
of high-value

2761
01:42:06,170 --> 01:42:09,439
versus other EF new lands

2762
01:42:09,439 --> 01:42:11,840
could be a solution
to that problem,

2763
01:42:11,840 --> 01:42:12,979
so, okay, so you never use

2764
01:42:12,979 --> 01:42:14,269
it now, okay, So what,

2765
01:42:14,269 --> 01:42:15,499
what, okay,

2766
01:42:15,499 --> 01:42:16,699
because solution
then what would

2767
01:42:16,699 --> 01:42:18,110
you what would
be the solution?

2768
01:42:18,110 --> 01:42:19,760
Well, possibly
the definition of

2769
01:42:19,760 --> 01:42:23,195
high-value farmland is
full-time commercial,

2770
01:42:23,195 --> 01:42:26,419
that produces full-time

2771
01:42:26,419 --> 01:42:28,264
family wage earning jobs.

2772
01:42:28,264 --> 01:42:31,999
And then there
are other kinds

2773
01:42:31,999 --> 01:42:34,265
of agriculture that
we're protecting

2774
01:42:34,265 --> 01:42:36,810
that wouldn't be

2775
01:42:37,570 --> 01:42:40,550
high-value are
full-time commercial,

2776
01:42:40,550 --> 01:42:41,990
but that's predominant in

2777
01:42:41,990 --> 01:42:45,514
an area that can get
farmed dwellings.

2778
01:42:45,514 --> 01:42:46,460
So there would
you would tie to

2779
01:42:46,460 --> 01:42:47,629
the definition
of high-value,

2780
01:42:47,629 --> 01:42:50,479
not to the soil,
it's irrigation,

2781
01:42:50,479 --> 01:42:52,249
its capability, but to

2782
01:42:52,249 --> 01:42:53,660
how it's actually
being used right now,

2783
01:42:53,660 --> 01:42:54,860
whether the actual users

2784
01:42:54,860 --> 01:42:56,119
are full-time farmers.

2785
01:42:56,119 --> 01:42:57,439
Well, I would
want to look at

2786
01:42:57,439 --> 01:42:59,449
something like
that as opposed to

2787
01:42:59,449 --> 01:43:01,609
saying you have to have

2788
01:43:01,609 --> 01:43:05,329
833 acres of irrigation
in aggregate,

2789
01:43:05,329 --> 01:43:07,954
36 parcels in order
to get a dwelling.

2790
01:43:07,954 --> 01:43:12,019
Or if you don't have 833
acres of aggregation

2791
01:43:12,019 --> 01:43:13,999
of irrigation and you

2792
01:43:13,999 --> 01:43:16,264
can't aggregate
36 parcels.

2793
01:43:16,264 --> 01:43:17,449
You have to shift and

2794
01:43:17,449 --> 01:43:19,625
entire area to non-pharm

2795
01:43:19,625 --> 01:43:21,080
in order to do any kind

2796
01:43:21,080 --> 01:43:23,360
of dwelling activity
in the area.

2797
01:43:23,360 --> 01:43:26,464
But we'll get into later.

2798
01:43:26,464 --> 01:43:28,099
That may be an
argument for

2799
01:43:28,099 --> 01:43:30,229
not adopting
that approach.

2800
01:43:30,229 --> 01:43:32,480
The only turned
off the top

2801
01:43:32,480 --> 01:43:34,489
I'd have with
using high value,

2802
01:43:34,489 --> 01:43:36,169
phi value finally
and definition

2803
01:43:36,169 --> 01:43:39,980
to using that to define
high-value farmland.

2804
01:43:39,980 --> 01:43:42,920
Is the baby affording
less protection to

2805
01:43:42,920 --> 01:43:44,509
those other equally

2806
01:43:44,509 --> 01:43:46,594
viable agricultural
apparition.

2807
01:43:46,594 --> 01:43:49,970
Others that we should
be predicting as well.

2808
01:43:49,970 --> 01:43:53,359
And I agree that
the primary area

2809
01:43:53,359 --> 01:43:55,445
for that discussion
is probably later,

2810
01:43:55,445 --> 01:43:56,690
but I felt that
I needed to

2811
01:43:56,690 --> 01:43:57,950
raise it in terms of

2812
01:43:57,950 --> 01:44:00,500
the high-value
farmland definition

2813
01:44:00,500 --> 01:44:01,939
just to make it
an issue because

2814
01:44:01,939 --> 01:44:04,155
it does relate. Okay.

2815
01:44:04,155 --> 01:44:06,890
We can always come
back if we feel we

2816
01:44:06,890 --> 01:44:07,399
have to change

2817
01:44:07,399 --> 01:44:08,899
the definition of
high-value farmland,

2818
01:44:08,899 --> 01:44:10,834
we can always
come back to it.

2819
01:44:10,834 --> 01:44:13,700
Jim. Commissioners,
a little

2820
01:44:13,700 --> 01:44:15,799
background on staff
recommendation

2821
01:44:15,799 --> 01:44:17,465
for additional lands.

2822
01:44:17,465 --> 01:44:19,609
We were looking at areas

2823
01:44:19,609 --> 01:44:21,724
like the harbor
bench that not only

2824
01:44:21,724 --> 01:44:24,665
grew or grow
high-value crops

2825
01:44:24,665 --> 01:44:27,424
that are under some kind
of growth pressure.

2826
01:44:27,424 --> 01:44:29,960
If you're going to
look at later on using

2827
01:44:29,960 --> 01:44:31,489
a definition of
high value to

2828
01:44:31,489 --> 01:44:33,260
distinguish commercial
crop areas.

2829
01:44:33,260 --> 01:44:34,579
There are a lot
of areas out

2830
01:44:34,579 --> 01:44:36,425
there that are not
undergrowth pressure,

2831
01:44:36,425 --> 01:44:38,479
but have have
commercial crops.

2832
01:44:38,479 --> 01:44:40,880
Treasure Valley in
mal here County,

2833
01:44:40,880 --> 01:44:43,369
the Klamath County
potato lands and such.

2834
01:44:43,369 --> 01:44:44,839
So we need to keep

2835
01:44:44,839 --> 01:44:46,369
that in mind if
we're going to start

2836
01:44:46,369 --> 01:44:48,139
to look at the definition
of high value to

2837
01:44:48,139 --> 01:44:49,729
distinguish
between commercial

2838
01:44:49,729 --> 01:44:51,169
farms and other firms.

2839
01:44:51,169 --> 01:44:52,699
Our recommendation
is based

2840
01:44:52,699 --> 01:44:54,380
on lands that are under

2841
01:44:54,380 --> 01:44:56,465
growth pressures and also

2842
01:44:56,465 --> 01:44:57,980
produce high-value crops,

2843
01:44:57,980 --> 01:45:01,080
not just areas that
produce high-value crops.

2844
01:45:02,800 --> 01:45:05,824
Other discussion of this

2845
01:45:05,824 --> 01:45:07,624
or well, Mr. Chairman,

2846
01:45:07,624 --> 01:45:10,819
I'll move the staff
recommendation there.

2847
01:45:10,819 --> 01:45:12,349
A second. Second.

2848
01:45:12,349 --> 01:45:13,384
All right.

2849
01:45:13,384 --> 01:45:18,409
Sir, further discussion
in favor Aye.

2850
01:45:18,409 --> 01:45:19,009
Aye.

2851
01:45:19,009 --> 01:45:20,030
Opposed. No.

2852
01:45:20,030 --> 01:45:21,770
Carries unanimously.

2853
01:45:21,770 --> 01:45:25,535
Okay. So we are at

2854
01:45:25,535 --> 01:45:28,954
11:00 and we are

2855
01:45:28,954 --> 01:45:31,129
that uses on
high-value farmlands.

2856
01:45:31,129 --> 01:45:32,134
This is an easy one.

2857
01:45:32,134 --> 01:45:34,079
I can't remember.

2858
01:45:34,930 --> 01:45:37,400
Without getting

2859
01:45:37,400 --> 01:45:39,440
into the margin
lands question.

2860
01:45:39,440 --> 01:45:46,430
Well, you could go

2861
01:45:46,430 --> 01:45:49,010
onto five if you want

2862
01:45:49,010 --> 01:45:51,979
and hit the minor issues.

2863
01:45:51,979 --> 01:45:55,519
But again, you
can handle two.

2864
01:45:55,519 --> 01:45:59,029
It's related to one
and it's affected,

2865
01:45:59,029 --> 01:46:00,349
of course, by
what you decide

2866
01:46:00,349 --> 01:46:02,525
about marginal
lands, but it isn't.

2867
01:46:02,525 --> 01:46:05,819
You can decide it first.

2868
01:46:09,670 --> 01:46:14,434
Took up to glutton
for punishment. Okay.

2869
01:46:14,434 --> 01:46:15,050
Right In.

2870
01:46:15,050 --> 01:46:15,890
Weighed right in.

2871
01:46:15,890 --> 01:46:18,035
Okay. Pause about too.

2872
01:46:18,035 --> 01:46:20,329
There are really two
issues related to

2873
01:46:20,329 --> 01:46:22,504
this uses on
high-value farmland.

2874
01:46:22,504 --> 01:46:24,289
The first issue
is whether or

2875
01:46:24,289 --> 01:46:26,390
not the commission should

2876
01:46:26,390 --> 01:46:29,000
extend the regulation of

2877
01:46:29,000 --> 01:46:30,769
two other uses on

2878
01:46:30,769 --> 01:46:32,269
the high-value and
pharma and e.g.

2879
01:46:32,269 --> 01:46:34,130
the golf courses
that the kennels,

2880
01:46:34,130 --> 01:46:35,314
the camp grounds and such.

2881
01:46:35,314 --> 01:46:36,950
The Association of County
acclaimed director

2882
01:46:36,950 --> 01:46:38,240
is believed that because

2883
01:46:38,240 --> 01:46:39,859
the definition is now

2884
01:46:39,859 --> 01:46:41,179
more extensive than what

2885
01:46:41,179 --> 01:46:42,409
was under our
current rule,

2886
01:46:42,409 --> 01:46:43,940
those uses shouldn't
necessarily

2887
01:46:43,940 --> 01:46:46,145
be regulated.

2888
01:46:46,145 --> 01:46:48,920
As has been proposed.

2889
01:46:48,920 --> 01:46:51,050
We would recommend
they would.

2890
01:46:51,050 --> 01:46:52,490
The other issue,
of course,

2891
01:46:52,490 --> 01:46:54,110
is non-farm dwellings

2892
01:46:54,110 --> 01:46:55,685
on high-value farmlands.

2893
01:46:55,685 --> 01:46:57,020
The staff has recommended

2894
01:46:57,020 --> 01:46:59,375
that non-pharm
dwellings be

2895
01:46:59,375 --> 01:47:01,370
reviewed as per per per

2896
01:47:01,370 --> 01:47:02,630
provided in the statute

2897
01:47:02,630 --> 01:47:03,650
that there'll
be no change.

2898
01:47:03,650 --> 01:47:05,794
However, the the issue
has been brought up

2899
01:47:05,794 --> 01:47:08,569
that high value on
high-value farmland,

2900
01:47:08,569 --> 01:47:10,954
non-farm blowing should
not be permitted,

2901
01:47:10,954 --> 01:47:12,349
as is the case

2902
01:47:12,349 --> 01:47:15,120
in the Commission's
current rule.

2903
01:47:18,250 --> 01:47:21,064
We would recommend that

2904
01:47:21,064 --> 01:47:23,899
the commission limit uses

2905
01:47:23,899 --> 01:47:25,550
on high-value farmlands as

2906
01:47:25,550 --> 01:47:26,780
proposed in our
draft rules,

2907
01:47:26,780 --> 01:47:28,969
and that would be
with the exception of

2908
01:47:28,969 --> 01:47:31,459
non non-farm
dwellings as it

2909
01:47:31,459 --> 01:47:32,780
currently is done in

2910
01:47:32,780 --> 01:47:35,370
the current
existing rules.

2911
01:47:41,800 --> 01:47:44,129
Gosh.

2912
01:48:26,560 --> 01:48:37,744
Talking about 17,

2913
01:48:37,744 --> 01:48:42,450
white gutter
isn't that's 25.

2914
01:49:24,250 --> 01:49:28,010
Our commissioners
studying or

2915
01:49:28,010 --> 01:49:32,220
waiting for me to do
something and unsteady.

2916
01:49:33,070 --> 01:49:37,039
Well, I'd like I'd like
to ask a question.

2917
01:49:37,039 --> 01:49:39,229
There's obviously
a raging debate

2918
01:49:39,229 --> 01:49:41,749
about whether we can limit

2919
01:49:41,749 --> 01:49:44,150
uses beyond what's in

2920
01:49:44,150 --> 01:49:45,379
the statute and should we

2921
01:49:45,379 --> 01:49:46,640
just take that
issue head on?

2922
01:49:46,640 --> 01:49:47,900
Is this the proper time?

2923
01:49:47,900 --> 01:49:51,590
Proper place?
Okay. Thanks.

2924
01:49:51,590 --> 01:49:52,459
Left asked her what's

2925
01:49:52,459 --> 01:49:54,214
already but you
want to take it up?

2926
01:49:54,214 --> 01:49:57,185
Well, very simply, I

2927
01:49:57,185 --> 01:49:58,564
think the Department
of Justice

2928
01:49:58,564 --> 01:49:59,689
thinks the commission

2929
01:49:59,689 --> 01:50:02,810
has used to limit the
uses that are otherwise

2930
01:50:02,810 --> 01:50:06,889
listed in two
or three to 13.

2931
01:50:06,889 --> 01:50:10,625
Just to give you a bit
of background on that,

2932
01:50:10,625 --> 01:50:12,409
just a historical
background,

2933
01:50:12,409 --> 01:50:14,734
not not so much a
legal background.

2934
01:50:14,734 --> 01:50:19,570
When the goal was
adopted in 1973,

2935
01:50:19,570 --> 01:50:21,500
was the
commission's choice

2936
01:50:21,500 --> 01:50:22,835
at that time to make

2937
01:50:22,835 --> 01:50:25,324
a link between the goal

2938
01:50:25,324 --> 01:50:27,605
and the exclusive
foreign new statute.

2939
01:50:27,605 --> 01:50:29,840
The Commission didn't
have to do that.

2940
01:50:29,840 --> 01:50:32,810
But those of you who
were around at the time,

2941
01:50:32,810 --> 01:50:34,399
remember that
the Commission

2942
01:50:34,399 --> 01:50:35,059
thought it was fairly

2943
01:50:35,059 --> 01:50:37,429
convenient that
the statute

2944
01:50:37,429 --> 01:50:39,289
had an exclusive farm use.

2945
01:50:39,289 --> 01:50:40,549
Excuse me, the
legislature had

2946
01:50:40,549 --> 01:50:42,110
an exclusive foreign
new statute which

2947
01:50:42,110 --> 01:50:44,254
laid out use a lot
of other stuff.

2948
01:50:44,254 --> 01:50:46,909
And the commission
felt that it would be

2949
01:50:46,909 --> 01:50:48,140
convenient to link to that

2950
01:50:48,140 --> 01:50:50,179
because there was
the list of uses.

2951
01:50:50,179 --> 01:50:52,249
At that time.

2952
01:50:52,249 --> 01:50:55,310
Goal three was more

2953
01:50:55,310 --> 01:50:58,624
limiting what was
authorized in the statute.

2954
01:50:58,624 --> 01:51:00,230
I'll give you an example.

2955
01:51:00,230 --> 01:51:02,344
The EF new stash
it at that time,

2956
01:51:02,344 --> 01:51:06,169
authorized land divisions
down to ten acres.

2957
01:51:06,169 --> 01:51:08,270
The commission,
instead of simply

2958
01:51:08,270 --> 01:51:10,189
relying upon
that, said, well,

2959
01:51:10,189 --> 01:51:12,739
we don t think
that's adequate to

2960
01:51:12,739 --> 01:51:15,320
protect agricultural
land for commercial use.

2961
01:51:15,320 --> 01:51:18,815
So we're going to say
that counties have to

2962
01:51:18,815 --> 01:51:20,689
regulate land divisions
to ensure that

2963
01:51:20,689 --> 01:51:21,589
new parcels are

2964
01:51:21,589 --> 01:51:22,939
appropriate for
the continuation.

2965
01:51:22,939 --> 01:51:24,079
A distinction. So in

2966
01:51:24,079 --> 01:51:25,745
other words, right
at the beginning,

2967
01:51:25,745 --> 01:51:27,560
the commission
created the link

2968
01:51:27,560 --> 01:51:29,195
to the SFU statute,

2969
01:51:29,195 --> 01:51:31,430
but said, we're
not going to

2970
01:51:31,430 --> 01:51:33,515
go with it altogether.

2971
01:51:33,515 --> 01:51:36,004
We're going to do
something more than that.

2972
01:51:36,004 --> 01:51:37,639
And the advice from

2973
01:51:37,639 --> 01:51:39,290
the Attorney
General's office then

2974
01:51:39,290 --> 01:51:40,895
and has been throughout

2975
01:51:40,895 --> 01:51:42,650
the years of the
program, Is it?

2976
01:51:42,650 --> 01:51:46,505
Yes. The
commission can can

2977
01:51:46,505 --> 01:51:48,620
limit uses that
are authorized and

2978
01:51:48,620 --> 01:51:49,939
the exclusive
farming statute

2979
01:51:49,939 --> 01:51:51,470
in order to
implement its goal,

2980
01:51:51,470 --> 01:51:52,670
it does have
that authority.

2981
01:51:52,670 --> 01:51:54,634
It's the same thing
with goal five,

2982
01:51:54,634 --> 01:51:58,415
where any of the other
goals, those goals.

2983
01:51:58,415 --> 01:52:00,754
You can through goal five,

2984
01:52:00,754 --> 01:52:01,955
effectively limit

2985
01:52:01,955 --> 01:52:03,470
the uses that
are authorized

2986
01:52:03,470 --> 01:52:04,639
and exclusive
farming stage.

2987
01:52:04,639 --> 01:52:06,095
If e.g. you say,

2988
01:52:06,095 --> 01:52:08,270
you can't have a
farm dwelling in

2989
01:52:08,270 --> 01:52:10,505
a wetland even if
it's in any zone,

2990
01:52:10,505 --> 01:52:12,530
even if the
legislature statute

2991
01:52:12,530 --> 01:52:16,025
authorizes counties to
authorize dwellings.

2992
01:52:16,025 --> 01:52:19,309
That has historically
been the posture

2993
01:52:19,309 --> 01:52:20,720
of the agency and

2994
01:52:20,720 --> 01:52:21,319
the advice from

2995
01:52:21,319 --> 01:52:22,535
the Attorney
General's office,

2996
01:52:22,535 --> 01:52:25,175
That's the historical
backdrop for this.

2997
01:52:25,175 --> 01:52:27,199
Mr. Chair, particular
if you've ever been

2998
01:52:27,199 --> 01:52:28,849
tested in court as to

2999
01:52:28,849 --> 01:52:31,880
whether that decision by

3000
01:52:31,880 --> 01:52:35,405
the commission to
the land divisions,

3001
01:52:35,405 --> 01:52:38,250
whether we had the
authority to do that.

3002
01:52:38,470 --> 01:52:41,810
I can think of it last

3003
01:52:41,810 --> 01:52:43,909
case where that indirectly

3004
01:52:43,909 --> 01:52:45,394
raised and addressed,

3005
01:52:45,394 --> 01:52:46,490
I wasn't able to find

3006
01:52:46,490 --> 01:52:48,809
anything at
directly on point.

3007
01:52:49,630 --> 01:52:52,399
That speaks to the
authorization,

3008
01:52:52,399 --> 01:52:53,539
the authority.

3009
01:52:53,539 --> 01:52:54,890
But we're still left with

3010
01:52:54,890 --> 01:52:56,494
the policy called
obviously,

3011
01:52:56,494 --> 01:52:58,490
left with what
policy color,

3012
01:52:58,490 --> 01:52:59,525
whether to do it.

3013
01:52:59,525 --> 01:53:00,200
We've got a lot of

3014
01:53:00,200 --> 01:53:01,304
authority to do
a lot of things.

3015
01:53:01,304 --> 01:53:03,420
We don't necessarily
do everything.

3016
01:53:04,090 --> 01:53:07,519
The concern that I would
have and it's more

3017
01:53:07,519 --> 01:53:08,629
to clear the air and get

3018
01:53:08,629 --> 01:53:10,175
our comments
or this lease.

3019
01:53:10,175 --> 01:53:12,109
The agency's position
on the record is

3020
01:53:12,109 --> 01:53:14,600
if you look at this
issues paper on 211,

3021
01:53:14,600 --> 01:53:16,219
the first paragraph raises

3022
01:53:16,219 --> 01:53:17,855
two issues which is

3023
01:53:17,855 --> 01:53:20,240
uses other than
high-value farmlands

3024
01:53:20,240 --> 01:53:22,294
and then talks about
non-pharm dwellings.

3025
01:53:22,294 --> 01:53:24,410
Whatever the recommendation,
the sentences

3026
01:53:24,410 --> 01:53:25,249
down there only speak

3027
01:53:25,249 --> 01:53:26,584
to the latter of the two.

3028
01:53:26,584 --> 01:53:28,400
There isn't anything
in here that

3029
01:53:28,400 --> 01:53:30,080
speaks to what I
recall as being

3030
01:53:30,080 --> 01:53:31,099
the comments from

3031
01:53:31,099 --> 01:53:32,509
the Planning directors
and the counties

3032
01:53:32,509 --> 01:53:35,030
as a whole about
those other uses.

3033
01:53:35,030 --> 01:53:35,659
And I wonder if we

3034
01:53:35,659 --> 01:53:37,699
could expand a
little bit on

3035
01:53:37,699 --> 01:53:40,249
the department's
recommendation as to

3036
01:53:40,249 --> 01:53:41,524
the other uses than

3037
01:53:41,524 --> 01:53:43,310
other than to hunt
far dwellings,

3038
01:53:43,310 --> 01:53:45,860
why those should continue
to be in there and

3039
01:53:45,860 --> 01:53:48,020
light in light
of that, Mr.

3040
01:53:48,020 --> 01:53:49,565
Chairman, could we ask

3041
01:53:49,565 --> 01:53:52,010
art to come up and make
a comment about that?

3042
01:53:52,010 --> 01:53:55,970
Sure. If I understand

3043
01:53:55,970 --> 01:53:58,894
your question,
Steve, it is.

3044
01:53:58,894 --> 01:54:00,815
As a policy matter,

3045
01:54:00,815 --> 01:54:02,359
why would we recommend

3046
01:54:02,359 --> 01:54:04,429
that there'll be a
limitation on uses?

3047
01:54:04,429 --> 01:54:06,395
This, of course, was

3048
01:54:06,395 --> 01:54:07,849
discussed at great length

3049
01:54:07,849 --> 01:54:09,725
in the fall of 1992

3050
01:54:09,725 --> 01:54:11,030
before you were in
by Commissioner.

3051
01:54:11,030 --> 01:54:12,470
So you weren't weren't

3052
01:54:12,470 --> 01:54:14,194
able to participate
in those.

3053
01:54:14,194 --> 01:54:16,099
But at that time,

3054
01:54:16,099 --> 01:54:18,170
the staff's
recommendation was in

3055
01:54:18,170 --> 01:54:20,689
the commission
adopted rules

3056
01:54:20,689 --> 01:54:25,910
which defined a class
of lands and said,

3057
01:54:25,910 --> 01:54:28,970
based on what we

3058
01:54:28,970 --> 01:54:30,109
know about what's actually

3059
01:54:30,109 --> 01:54:32,089
going on out there
on farmland.

3060
01:54:32,089 --> 01:54:33,979
Coming from EAFE reports,

3061
01:54:33,979 --> 01:54:37,775
anecdotes and all are
many sources of data.

3062
01:54:37,775 --> 01:54:39,440
We are concerned that on

3063
01:54:39,440 --> 01:54:42,139
these most
important lands,

3064
01:54:42,139 --> 01:54:45,170
some uses are
having the effect

3065
01:54:45,170 --> 01:54:47,795
of reducing the
farmland supply,

3066
01:54:47,795 --> 01:54:48,920
these very
important lands.

3067
01:54:48,920 --> 01:54:50,659
And so when you

3068
01:54:50,659 --> 01:54:52,820
adopted those
rules, you listed,

3069
01:54:52,820 --> 01:54:54,080
I think eight or nine

3070
01:54:54,080 --> 01:54:57,289
uses golf courses,
churches, schools,

3071
01:54:57,289 --> 01:54:59,210
private campgrounds,
and others,

3072
01:54:59,210 --> 01:55:01,939
and said that you
felt that they were

3073
01:55:01,939 --> 01:55:03,410
inappropriate on

3074
01:55:03,410 --> 01:55:04,819
the state's best and most

3075
01:55:04,819 --> 01:55:07,319
productive farmland.

3076
01:55:08,020 --> 01:55:10,549
And so what what's
happening here

3077
01:55:10,549 --> 01:55:13,580
is we're raising
the issue.

3078
01:55:13,580 --> 01:55:15,604
Do you want to
continue to do that?

3079
01:55:15,604 --> 01:55:18,199
What you did back
then and of course,

3080
01:55:18,199 --> 01:55:19,849
our recommendation
as you know, is yes,

3081
01:55:19,849 --> 01:55:20,930
we do want to
continue to do

3082
01:55:20,930 --> 01:55:22,084
that for the same reasons.

3083
01:55:22,084 --> 01:55:23,780
The only reason
I raise it here

3084
01:55:23,780 --> 01:55:26,360
is is I wanted more
for the record

3085
01:55:26,360 --> 01:55:27,859
than anything else
to make sure we add

3086
01:55:27,859 --> 01:55:29,420
a comment to
those comments

3087
01:55:29,420 --> 01:55:31,054
we'd received
in this forum.

3088
01:55:31,054 --> 01:55:33,559
Again, in a
different forum

3089
01:55:33,559 --> 01:55:35,840
to why those other,

3090
01:55:35,840 --> 01:55:37,490
you shouldn't be
excluded as well.

3091
01:55:37,490 --> 01:55:38,509
And it may be that we're

3092
01:55:38,509 --> 01:55:39,470
just carrying over some of

3093
01:55:39,470 --> 01:55:41,269
those earlier
policy choices,

3094
01:55:41,269 --> 01:55:42,440
but I wanted to make
sure the rationale.

3095
01:55:42,440 --> 01:55:44,089
I think it's also
worth pointing

3096
01:55:44,089 --> 01:55:46,099
out the testimony
that you've

3097
01:55:46,099 --> 01:55:49,219
heard on the 20th about

3098
01:55:49,219 --> 01:55:53,315
you ought to rethink
that list of uses

3099
01:55:53,315 --> 01:55:56,510
from the Fall of
92 because we

3100
01:55:56,510 --> 01:55:57,769
now are using

3101
01:55:57,769 --> 01:55:59,345
the statutes definition

3102
01:55:59,345 --> 01:56:00,724
of high-value farmland,

3103
01:56:00,724 --> 01:56:01,820
and that is different

3104
01:56:01,820 --> 01:56:04,339
from what was in
your 92 rules.

3105
01:56:04,339 --> 01:56:05,780
The assertion
has been made

3106
01:56:05,780 --> 01:56:07,430
that the legislature

3107
01:56:07,430 --> 01:56:09,109
is definition of
high-value farmlands

3108
01:56:09,109 --> 01:56:10,609
much more expansive.

3109
01:56:10,609 --> 01:56:13,294
And hence, we ought
to reconsider.

3110
01:56:13,294 --> 01:56:15,605
We don't see it that way.

3111
01:56:15,605 --> 01:56:18,589
That's right at the
department because

3112
01:56:18,589 --> 01:56:21,125
the definition that was in

3113
01:56:21,125 --> 01:56:24,664
the 92 rules had
two parts to it.

3114
01:56:24,664 --> 01:56:26,689
The first part was,
as you remember,

3115
01:56:26,689 --> 01:56:28,430
clear and objective,
it referred

3116
01:56:28,430 --> 01:56:30,769
to priming a class
one, class two.

3117
01:56:30,769 --> 01:56:32,239
And generally speaking,

3118
01:56:32,239 --> 01:56:33,335
we know where they are.

3119
01:56:33,335 --> 01:56:33,890
Once you know what

3120
01:56:33,890 --> 01:56:35,554
the soil mapping
units are,

3121
01:56:35,554 --> 01:56:37,009
you know where
those soils are.

3122
01:56:37,009 --> 01:56:39,049
But there was
a second step

3123
01:56:39,049 --> 01:56:42,740
as well that
said that there

3124
01:56:42,740 --> 01:56:45,500
would be additional
lands subject to

3125
01:56:45,500 --> 01:56:48,874
the high-value
farmland limitations,

3126
01:56:48,874 --> 01:56:51,710
and that those lands
would be identified in

3127
01:56:51,710 --> 01:56:52,880
a planning and mapping

3128
01:56:52,880 --> 01:56:54,380
process that
counties would

3129
01:56:54,380 --> 01:56:55,999
do with the Department
of Agriculture

3130
01:56:55,999 --> 01:56:57,560
in with us and so
on and so forth.

3131
01:56:57,560 --> 01:57:00,019
And if you look at
that language from

3132
01:57:00,019 --> 01:57:03,274
the 92 rules and

3133
01:57:03,274 --> 01:57:04,159
try to think through

3134
01:57:04,159 --> 01:57:05,825
the implementation of it.

3135
01:57:05,825 --> 01:57:08,765
I think it's
fair to say that

3136
01:57:08,765 --> 01:57:12,634
we may have covered
as much ground,

3137
01:57:12,634 --> 01:57:14,269
maybe more, maybe less,

3138
01:57:14,269 --> 01:57:17,284
but possibly
as much ground

3139
01:57:17,284 --> 01:57:18,530
as the statutes

3140
01:57:18,530 --> 01:57:19,850
definition of
high-value farm.

3141
01:57:19,850 --> 01:57:22,279
And we can't know that
for sure of course,

3142
01:57:22,279 --> 01:57:23,930
because we're not
going to go through

3143
01:57:23,930 --> 01:57:26,255
that exercise and
actually do the mapping.

3144
01:57:26,255 --> 01:57:29,389
I don't think it's
fair to assume that

3145
01:57:29,389 --> 01:57:31,159
the statutes
definition is much

3146
01:57:31,159 --> 01:57:34,399
broader than what
was in excuse me.

3147
01:57:34,399 --> 01:57:34,879
Yeah.

3148
01:57:34,879 --> 01:57:36,815
The statutes definition
is much broader

3149
01:57:36,815 --> 01:57:39,870
than what was in the
Commission's 92 rules.

3150
01:57:40,270 --> 01:57:42,529
My comment on that as

3151
01:57:42,529 --> 01:57:44,029
having followed along with

3152
01:57:44,029 --> 01:57:45,439
the legislature when
they were making

3153
01:57:45,439 --> 01:57:47,330
this decision that I
thought the effort

3154
01:57:47,330 --> 01:57:48,649
at that time was to

3155
01:57:48,649 --> 01:57:50,269
simply pick those
soil classes

3156
01:57:50,269 --> 01:57:51,830
that would have
implemented

3157
01:57:51,830 --> 01:57:53,719
basically what
we had adopted.

3158
01:57:53,719 --> 01:57:55,760
And so I thought
really there was a lot

3159
01:57:55,760 --> 01:57:58,984
of uniformity
between the two,

3160
01:57:58,984 --> 01:58:00,769
if you would really
carried the other one

3161
01:58:00,769 --> 01:58:02,840
on through this foot.

3162
01:58:02,840 --> 01:58:04,219
But this was clear
and objective,

3163
01:58:04,219 --> 01:58:05,629
whereas ours required to

3164
01:58:05,629 --> 01:58:07,010
a major planning
that pertinent.

3165
01:58:07,010 --> 01:58:09,409
So I saw a major step

3166
01:58:09,409 --> 01:58:11,915
forward in what the
legislature adopted.

3167
01:58:11,915 --> 01:58:13,609
And I think we're kind
of stuck with it.

3168
01:58:13,609 --> 01:58:15,530
And I think there

3169
01:58:15,530 --> 01:58:17,120
may be some areas
where we would like to

3170
01:58:17,120 --> 01:58:18,949
expand it more and
I'm sure there are

3171
01:58:18,949 --> 01:58:20,060
great many people
would like to bring

3172
01:58:20,060 --> 01:58:21,319
it back even less.

3173
01:58:21,319 --> 01:58:22,939
But my feeling is that

3174
01:58:22,939 --> 01:58:25,234
we're already at
at a point which

3175
01:58:25,234 --> 01:58:27,814
was considered by
the legislature

3176
01:58:27,814 --> 01:58:29,119
and this is where

3177
01:58:29,119 --> 01:58:30,649
we where we are
at this time.

3178
01:58:30,649 --> 01:58:32,960
And I think that probably

3179
01:58:32,960 --> 01:58:35,630
the staff
recommendation is

3180
01:58:35,630 --> 01:58:37,849
where I would
come down on.

3181
01:58:37,849 --> 01:58:40,115
Johnny, you want to
ask the question?

3182
01:58:40,115 --> 01:58:42,320
Well, are you have

3183
01:58:42,320 --> 01:58:44,149
some real concerns of
planning directors

3184
01:58:44,149 --> 01:58:45,740
have some concerns
about this.

3185
01:58:45,740 --> 01:58:48,029
Do you want to
elaborate on

3186
01:58:48,600 --> 01:58:51,639
art slack land
use specialists

3187
01:58:51,639 --> 01:58:54,499
for the Association
of Oregon counties.

3188
01:58:54,600 --> 01:58:57,009
Mr. Bruce Jati?

3189
01:58:57,009 --> 01:58:58,570
Yes. The planning
directors have

3190
01:58:58,570 --> 01:59:00,145
some real concerns
in this regard.

3191
01:59:00,145 --> 01:59:04,389
I would I might not
necessarily agree with

3192
01:59:04,389 --> 01:59:06,909
director Benares
characterization

3193
01:59:06,909 --> 01:59:08,320
of whether all of

3194
01:59:08,320 --> 01:59:10,029
the land that's in
the definition of

3195
01:59:10,029 --> 01:59:13,089
high-value pursuant
to house bill 36 61,

3196
01:59:13,089 --> 01:59:15,684
whether it would be
included or excluded,

3197
01:59:15,684 --> 01:59:16,899
it was two parts.

3198
01:59:16,899 --> 01:59:19,840
When we won, the
commission adopted

3199
01:59:19,840 --> 01:59:25,269
their definition of
high-value farmland in

3200
01:59:25,269 --> 01:59:29,589
1992 and also set out
to preclude some of

3201
01:59:29,589 --> 01:59:34,475
the allowable
non-farm uses

3202
01:59:34,475 --> 01:59:36,325
from those and
high-value farmlands.

3203
01:59:36,325 --> 01:59:38,979
One was the exercise,
the planning exercise,

3204
01:59:38,979 --> 01:59:42,729
which DIC is expressed

3205
01:59:42,729 --> 01:59:44,019
that we were looking at

3206
01:59:44,019 --> 01:59:45,700
class 12 prime and unique.

3207
01:59:45,700 --> 01:59:47,889
And there was through
a planning process

3208
01:59:47,889 --> 01:59:49,179
going to be some
other soils

3209
01:59:49,179 --> 01:59:50,275
that might be included.

3210
01:59:50,275 --> 01:59:54,129
Whether it we
could differ as to

3211
01:59:54,129 --> 01:59:56,020
whether all the soils
that we're talking

3212
01:59:56,020 --> 01:59:58,510
about here under
the house bill 36,

3213
01:59:58,510 --> 02:00:01,104
61, whether they would
be high-value or not.

3214
02:00:01,104 --> 02:00:03,160
The other part of that
which is significant

3215
02:00:03,160 --> 02:00:05,530
is that at the time
that was undertaken,

3216
02:00:05,530 --> 02:00:06,730
is that there
was also gonna

3217
02:00:06,730 --> 02:00:08,050
be a planning process and

3218
02:00:08,050 --> 02:00:11,379
exercise to identify
secondary lands.

3219
02:00:11,379 --> 02:00:13,630
And of course, that
whole process has gone.

3220
02:00:13,630 --> 02:00:15,850
There may be, it's just

3221
02:00:15,850 --> 02:00:18,720
this fair to say
that some of

3222
02:00:18,720 --> 02:00:20,220
the soil types that

3223
02:00:20,220 --> 02:00:21,959
the planners are concerned

3224
02:00:21,959 --> 02:00:25,289
about would be some

3225
02:00:25,289 --> 02:00:27,269
of the secondary
lands that we find,

3226
02:00:27,269 --> 02:00:29,909
especially some of
the three soils and

3227
02:00:29,909 --> 02:00:32,519
the four forest soils that

3228
02:00:32,519 --> 02:00:33,570
were added in which

3229
02:00:33,570 --> 02:00:35,879
our transition hill lands.

3230
02:00:35,879 --> 02:00:37,770
So it's fair to

3231
02:00:37,770 --> 02:00:40,605
say that we really
don't know.

3232
02:00:40,605 --> 02:00:43,289
But that I think

3233
02:00:43,289 --> 02:00:44,939
it's also fair to
say that there's

3234
02:00:44,939 --> 02:00:47,850
no argument
with respect to

3235
02:00:47,850 --> 02:00:49,620
the class 12 prime

3236
02:00:49,620 --> 02:00:51,239
and unique soils
at this point.

3237
02:00:51,239 --> 02:00:53,639
They were intended to

3238
02:00:53,639 --> 02:00:56,910
be a high-value by the
commission in 1992,

3239
02:00:56,910 --> 02:00:58,590
and the planning
directors are not

3240
02:00:58,590 --> 02:01:00,465
taking issue
with that here.

3241
02:01:00,465 --> 02:01:03,630
What we are concerned
about because of

3242
02:01:03,630 --> 02:01:06,510
the additional
class three and

3243
02:01:06,510 --> 02:01:08,010
class four soils that were

3244
02:01:08,010 --> 02:01:09,539
added to the definition

3245
02:01:09,539 --> 02:01:13,680
of high-value farmland by

3246
02:01:13,680 --> 02:01:16,439
the legislature that there

3247
02:01:16,439 --> 02:01:20,384
has as part of that
or a lot of record

3248
02:01:20,384 --> 02:01:23,880
that there is quite a
bit of additional soils

3249
02:01:23,880 --> 02:01:26,790
that if you use

3250
02:01:26,790 --> 02:01:27,929
the same definition
are gonna

3251
02:01:27,929 --> 02:01:28,980
be precluded and

3252
02:01:28,980 --> 02:01:31,215
we think that that
is as excessive,

3253
02:01:31,215 --> 02:01:33,389
if you recall, it's
your last meeting.

3254
02:01:33,389 --> 02:01:35,655
I gave you some maps that

3255
02:01:35,655 --> 02:01:37,380
showed high-value farmed

3256
02:01:37,380 --> 02:01:38,744
soils in Polk County.

3257
02:01:38,744 --> 02:01:42,839
And I indicated
that about 80% of

3258
02:01:42,839 --> 02:01:45,224
the agricultural land,

3259
02:01:45,224 --> 02:01:46,980
that's either EF view or

3260
02:01:46,980 --> 02:01:49,020
farm forest lands in

3261
02:01:49,020 --> 02:01:50,145
Polk County will probably

3262
02:01:50,145 --> 02:01:52,019
wind up being
high value based

3263
02:01:52,019 --> 02:01:53,490
on the definition that's

3264
02:01:53,490 --> 02:01:55,484
in the statute
at this point,

3265
02:01:55,484 --> 02:01:59,580
planning directors
conclude that

3266
02:01:59,580 --> 02:02:01,559
and we believe
that it would be

3267
02:02:01,559 --> 02:02:05,669
appropriate to allow or

3268
02:02:05,669 --> 02:02:07,589
provide the
opportunity for

3269
02:02:07,589 --> 02:02:09,899
these other non-farm uses

3270
02:02:09,899 --> 02:02:11,040
to be considered through

3271
02:02:11,040 --> 02:02:12,869
the conditional
use permit that

3272
02:02:12,869 --> 02:02:14,745
are in the add-on soils,

3273
02:02:14,745 --> 02:02:16,709
the class three
and class four.

3274
02:02:16,709 --> 02:02:17,880
And it's I think it's

3275
02:02:17,880 --> 02:02:21,585
a simple process
of adopt or

3276
02:02:21,585 --> 02:02:24,300
amending the
administrative rules to

3277
02:02:24,300 --> 02:02:25,920
provide through

3278
02:02:25,920 --> 02:02:28,079
the conditional use
process to consider,

3279
02:02:28,079 --> 02:02:30,060
for instance, golf
courses through

3280
02:02:30,060 --> 02:02:30,540
the through

3281
02:02:30,540 --> 02:02:32,370
the conditional use
permit process.

3282
02:02:32,370 --> 02:02:34,379
If it is on if they are

3283
02:02:34,379 --> 02:02:36,704
proposed on Class three
and Class four sales,

3284
02:02:36,704 --> 02:02:38,170
we still have to look at.

3285
02:02:38,170 --> 02:02:40,369
The compatibility
with agriculture and

3286
02:02:40,369 --> 02:02:42,725
all the conditional
use permit processes.

3287
02:02:42,725 --> 02:02:44,990
But we believe that it

3288
02:02:44,990 --> 02:02:47,855
is appropriate and
there is a place

3289
02:02:47,855 --> 02:02:49,880
for dog kennels in some of

3290
02:02:49,880 --> 02:02:52,340
these other kinds of
activities that you're

3291
02:02:52,340 --> 02:02:53,690
looking at it precluding

3292
02:02:53,690 --> 02:02:55,459
on the add-on soils that

3293
02:02:55,459 --> 02:02:57,559
were included
for the purposes

3294
02:02:57,559 --> 02:02:59,390
of lot of record
primarily.

3295
02:02:59,390 --> 02:03:01,279
That's our major issue.

3296
02:03:01,279 --> 02:03:03,290
Or is there a
specific user set of

3297
02:03:03,290 --> 02:03:06,020
uses of the many that
are on the table there.

3298
02:03:06,020 --> 02:03:08,074
That's driving
your concern.

3299
02:03:08,074 --> 02:03:09,890
I mean, I need to get
it in context there.

3300
02:03:09,890 --> 02:03:11,420
I guess the other way
to do it with the

3301
02:03:11,420 --> 02:03:13,459
Nafion showed a
poll counting.

3302
02:03:13,459 --> 02:03:15,559
How many non-farm
CEUs of those were

3303
02:03:15,559 --> 02:03:18,379
talking about
last three years?

3304
02:03:18,379 --> 02:03:20,665
How much would have
not been approved?

3305
02:03:20,665 --> 02:03:23,169
I happen to be in
effect for years ago.

3306
02:03:24,140 --> 02:03:25,830
That's real

3307
02:03:25,830 --> 02:03:27,329
difficult to
Commissioner Pfeiffer

3308
02:03:27,329 --> 02:03:29,880
to respond to
you right now,

3309
02:03:29,880 --> 02:03:34,454
but both ways it
doesn't warrant rule.

3310
02:03:34,454 --> 02:03:36,389
And what's the
impact of the past.

3311
02:03:36,389 --> 02:03:39,929
But I'm curious whether
as much of an issue

3312
02:03:39,929 --> 02:03:45,314
is really used to say
precisely how many.

3313
02:03:45,314 --> 02:03:46,589
I would say
there's, you know,

3314
02:03:46,589 --> 02:03:47,790
I'd give you a range of

3315
02:03:47,790 --> 02:03:50,100
probably in the
last three years,

3316
02:03:50,100 --> 02:03:52,995
probably 12 to 18
conditional uses.

3317
02:03:52,995 --> 02:03:54,974
That would be precluded.

3318
02:03:54,974 --> 02:03:56,234
Certainly there, you know.

3319
02:03:56,234 --> 02:03:59,759
And how much of

3320
02:03:59,759 --> 02:04:02,680
that is driven by
Golf Course concerns?

3321
02:04:05,030 --> 02:04:07,410
The golf courses
that have been

3322
02:04:07,410 --> 02:04:09,780
approved at this
point or been

3323
02:04:09,780 --> 02:04:12,059
approved would have
been precluded based

3324
02:04:12,059 --> 02:04:14,969
on where they were.

3325
02:04:14,969 --> 02:04:18,614
They go back to 1990
or 91 at this point,

3326
02:04:18,614 --> 02:04:19,319
the new rule would

3327
02:04:19,319 --> 02:04:20,655
have basically
precluded those.

3328
02:04:20,655 --> 02:04:22,845
I don't believe that
they're on 3.4 soils.

3329
02:04:22,845 --> 02:04:26,940
They're on one to
any other veterans.

3330
02:04:26,940 --> 02:04:28,919
They are on better
soils and we

3331
02:04:28,919 --> 02:04:29,430
have a couple of

3332
02:04:29,430 --> 02:04:31,020
golf courses and are
under construction.

3333
02:04:31,020 --> 02:04:33,900
Needless to say, those
wouldn't be done.

3334
02:04:33,900 --> 02:04:36,374
But there won't be
another golf course

3335
02:04:36,374 --> 02:04:38,895
even considered
in Polk County.

3336
02:04:38,895 --> 02:04:40,529
And I would dare say most

3337
02:04:40,529 --> 02:04:42,195
of the Willamette
Valley counties,

3338
02:04:42,195 --> 02:04:43,890
if the golf courses are

3339
02:04:43,890 --> 02:04:45,930
precluded from at
least being considered

3340
02:04:45,930 --> 02:04:51,240
on the three and
in forest soils.

3341
02:04:51,240 --> 02:04:53,744
If you're familiar
with Washington County

3342
02:04:53,744 --> 02:04:56,295
in the pumpkin ridge
area, I believe.

3343
02:04:56,295 --> 02:04:59,790
I don t know the soils,
at least offhand,

3344
02:04:59,790 --> 02:05:02,210
but I would say that
those are probably in

3345
02:05:02,210 --> 02:05:03,720
the pumpkin ridge
area because I worked

3346
02:05:03,720 --> 02:05:05,280
in Washington County
for 14 years.

3347
02:05:05,280 --> 02:05:09,179
There's probably some
3.4 E soils up there.

3348
02:05:09,179 --> 02:05:12,149
And that golf course
would even be

3349
02:05:12,149 --> 02:05:13,229
considered from
going through

3350
02:05:13,229 --> 02:05:15,104
the conditional use
permit process.

3351
02:05:15,104 --> 02:05:17,070
The last question,
the last observation,

3352
02:05:17,070 --> 02:05:19,020
the curiosity I've
had on this issue

3353
02:05:19,020 --> 02:05:21,000
is that all of
that strikes me,

3354
02:05:21,000 --> 02:05:25,859
is that particular
industry

3355
02:05:25,859 --> 02:05:26,940
has been the atoms.

3356
02:05:26,940 --> 02:05:29,220
Let's consider
these when they get

3357
02:05:29,220 --> 02:05:30,569
proceedings that
I've been curious

3358
02:05:30,569 --> 02:05:32,249
as to why that is.

3359
02:05:32,249 --> 02:05:33,719
Are we saturated?

3360
02:05:33,719 --> 02:05:36,449
Is it a non issue
or the other

3361
02:05:36,449 --> 02:05:37,919
where you have since

3362
02:05:37,919 --> 02:05:39,570
I don't have a
sense for that.

3363
02:05:39,570 --> 02:05:41,835
But I'm just as, you know,

3364
02:05:41,835 --> 02:05:43,319
I'm just as concerned

3365
02:05:43,319 --> 02:05:44,280
about somebody
who wants to

3366
02:05:44,280 --> 02:05:46,454
put a dog kennel and
where does he go?

3367
02:05:46,454 --> 02:05:47,759
Probably more
concerned about

3368
02:05:47,759 --> 02:05:48,990
that than I am about

3369
02:05:48,990 --> 02:05:52,619
the golf course
necessarily. Yeah.

3370
02:05:52,619 --> 02:05:53,790
Just something else to put

3371
02:05:53,790 --> 02:05:55,529
your testimony
and contexts.

3372
02:05:55,529 --> 02:06:04,334
You talked about 80%
of the land currently,

3373
02:06:04,334 --> 02:06:06,869
including the 3.4 soils,

3374
02:06:06,869 --> 02:06:09,285
would become TFEU under

3375
02:06:09,285 --> 02:06:11,504
or high value under
this definition.

3376
02:06:11,504 --> 02:06:13,169
We'll take the
20% and tell

3377
02:06:13,169 --> 02:06:15,105
me how many acres that is.

3378
02:06:15,105 --> 02:06:17,320
Asides.

3379
02:06:17,750 --> 02:06:21,164
We're probably looking
at 100,000 acres.

3380
02:06:21,164 --> 02:06:23,729
That's the 20th side
not to eat well,

3381
02:06:23,729 --> 02:06:26,520
100,000 acres It's
probably would

3382
02:06:26,520 --> 02:06:32,340
be what is would be
high-value pharmacy.

3383
02:06:32,340 --> 02:06:34,319
That's one of the
series of maps.

3384
02:06:34,319 --> 02:06:35,590
Yes.

3385
02:06:36,530 --> 02:06:38,824
You're talking to you

3386
02:06:38,824 --> 02:06:40,259
a few zone in Polk County,

3387
02:06:40,259 --> 02:06:42,870
is that about 80% of

3388
02:06:42,870 --> 02:06:44,879
that and a good
portion of the land,

3389
02:06:44,879 --> 02:06:47,490
it is something
entirely effuse

3390
02:06:47,490 --> 02:06:50,504
on Oak County has
say, 125,000 acres?

3391
02:06:50,504 --> 02:06:51,315
Yeah.

3392
02:06:51,315 --> 02:06:52,740
Okay.

3393
02:06:52,740 --> 02:06:56,955
Can you describe what
you're looking at here?

3394
02:06:56,955 --> 02:07:00,975
Is the white the white
land on this map?

3395
02:07:00,975 --> 02:07:03,700
This is a township.

3396
02:07:04,520 --> 02:07:06,839
And in Polk County

3397
02:07:06,839 --> 02:07:10,635
and the map represents
one township.

3398
02:07:10,635 --> 02:07:13,230
One township,
alright. Okay.

3399
02:07:13,230 --> 02:07:15,555
Which, which is primarily,

3400
02:07:15,555 --> 02:07:18,720
if you shaded areas

3401
02:07:18,720 --> 02:07:20,280
in total our high-value

3402
02:07:20,280 --> 02:07:22,139
farmed soils on this map.

3403
02:07:22,139 --> 02:07:24,749
So only the white areas
are not high value.

3404
02:07:24,749 --> 02:07:25,995
And you have to look at

3405
02:07:25,995 --> 02:07:27,329
personalization in that to

3406
02:07:27,329 --> 02:07:31,169
determine whether a
parcel is 51% or more.

3407
02:07:31,169 --> 02:07:34,305
But if you look at
this more closely,

3408
02:07:34,305 --> 02:07:38,204
the light gray is
classmates and prime.

3409
02:07:38,204 --> 02:07:41,025
The classic dark
color here.

3410
02:07:41,025 --> 02:07:45,975
These dark colors are
the flat three and

3411
02:07:45,975 --> 02:07:49,274
Last 3.3 Ws soils.

3412
02:07:49,274 --> 02:07:53,759
And then there's
another radiation gray

3413
02:07:53,759 --> 02:07:55,770
here that is the class

3414
02:07:55,770 --> 02:07:58,395
for four E and for Debbie.

3415
02:07:58,395 --> 02:08:00,419
Essentially, this
bill through

3416
02:08:00,419 --> 02:08:02,685
here is not high value.

3417
02:08:02,685 --> 02:08:04,620
This looks pretty
solidly high value,

3418
02:08:04,620 --> 02:08:06,255
but you had a little
inclusions, right?

3419
02:08:06,255 --> 02:08:09,370
And this is
Margot up here.

3420
02:08:10,850 --> 02:08:14,579
Ron actually has
the exact figures

3421
02:08:14,579 --> 02:08:15,659
from the soil survey.

3422
02:08:15,659 --> 02:08:17,040
If you'd like to
have him quote

3423
02:08:17,040 --> 02:08:20,549
those fingers of what?

3424
02:08:20,549 --> 02:08:22,199
The percentage of
soils that would be

3425
02:08:22,199 --> 02:08:24,059
high value just in

3426
02:08:24,059 --> 02:08:25,859
this one on this
one map by county,

3427
02:08:25,859 --> 02:08:28,035
you quite counties, okay.

3428
02:08:28,035 --> 02:08:31,109
Basically, if
you excluding

3429
02:08:31,109 --> 02:08:34,560
the prime and unique
class 1.2 soils,

3430
02:08:34,560 --> 02:08:38,760
Polk County has a
total additional 3.4

3431
02:08:38,760 --> 02:08:43,739
soils have approximately
143,000 acres.

3432
02:08:43,739 --> 02:08:45,449
Of that.

3433
02:08:45,449 --> 02:08:49,560
Approximately 47% of it

3434
02:08:49,560 --> 02:08:52,275
would be those add-on

3435
02:08:52,275 --> 02:08:55,080
high Biot soils
that are in 36, 61.

3436
02:08:55,080 --> 02:08:56,775
So there's an additional

3437
02:08:56,775 --> 02:08:59,940
There's other class 3.4
soils in Polk County,

3438
02:08:59,940 --> 02:09:01,709
approximately 53% of

3439
02:09:01,709 --> 02:09:03,539
the total class
3.4 soils in

3440
02:09:03,539 --> 02:09:04,530
Polk County that are

3441
02:09:04,530 --> 02:09:08,550
non high-value
farmland soils.

3442
02:09:08,550 --> 02:09:10,199
And to add to this,

3443
02:09:10,199 --> 02:09:11,609
there are other ways to

3444
02:09:11,609 --> 02:09:13,470
approve golf courses
in rural areas.

3445
02:09:13,470 --> 02:09:14,220
Number one, you have

3446
02:09:14,220 --> 02:09:15,959
Rural Residential
exception areas.

3447
02:09:15,959 --> 02:09:17,250
Number two, you
always have

3448
02:09:17,250 --> 02:09:18,960
the exceptions
process if it gets to

3449
02:09:18,960 --> 02:09:20,939
the point where there's
no land available

3450
02:09:20,939 --> 02:09:23,009
for a golf course and
you can show the need,

3451
02:09:23,009 --> 02:09:25,600
you can take an
reasons exception.

3452
02:09:28,430 --> 02:09:32,430
So just trying to
get back at what is

3453
02:09:32,430 --> 02:09:37,390
the underlying issue
here that is a concern.

3454
02:09:38,240 --> 02:09:40,545
I guess, a different way.

3455
02:09:40,545 --> 02:09:42,660
What changes
would you make in

3456
02:09:42,660 --> 02:09:47,670
the staff proposal
rather than precluding

3457
02:09:47,670 --> 02:09:52,349
all of the identified

3458
02:09:52,349 --> 02:09:55,515
non-farm uses from
high-value farmed soils.

3459
02:09:55,515 --> 02:10:00,374
What we would propose
is that the commission

3460
02:10:00,374 --> 02:10:02,790
identify

3461
02:10:02,790 --> 02:10:06,764
appropriate as appropriate
conditional uses

3462
02:10:06,764 --> 02:10:08,954
on the 3.4 soils,

3463
02:10:08,954 --> 02:10:12,419
the add-on soils to
allow, for instance,

3464
02:10:12,419 --> 02:10:14,039
a golf course still
to be considered

3465
02:10:14,039 --> 02:10:16,214
as a conditional
use permit.

3466
02:10:16,214 --> 02:10:18,600
You could do that
by saying we're

3467
02:10:18,600 --> 02:10:20,969
golf courses
are let's say I

3468
02:10:20,969 --> 02:10:23,025
identified you could say

3469
02:10:23,025 --> 02:10:24,599
golf course it could be

3470
02:10:24,599 --> 02:10:25,830
considered as
conditional use

3471
02:10:25,830 --> 02:10:28,725
permits on on other than

3472
02:10:28,725 --> 02:10:31,170
class 12 private
unique soil was just

3473
02:10:31,170 --> 02:10:33,724
to say except that my
value except on high,

3474
02:10:33,724 --> 02:10:34,860
that wouldn't
do it use, but

3475
02:10:34,860 --> 02:10:36,029
use and do it use by

3476
02:10:36,029 --> 02:10:36,900
use things are probably

3477
02:10:36,900 --> 02:10:38,579
a little bit That's cool.

3478
02:10:38,579 --> 02:10:40,380
Churches kettle. Yeah.
And you could add

3479
02:10:40,380 --> 02:10:43,080
whatever ones you
would believe.

3480
02:10:43,080 --> 02:10:45,404
Adam all are.

3481
02:10:45,404 --> 02:10:46,320
Certainly you could go

3482
02:10:46,320 --> 02:10:47,370
through that list and add

3483
02:10:47,370 --> 02:10:49,889
back in the ones that
you felt appropriately.

3484
02:10:49,889 --> 02:10:52,740
Okay. Jim. Commissioners,
I was just

3485
02:10:52,740 --> 02:10:54,180
reminded of
something that might

3486
02:10:54,180 --> 02:10:56,100
help you in your
discussion of this,

3487
02:10:56,100 --> 02:10:57,869
a little background
on those add-on

3488
02:10:57,869 --> 02:11:00,045
soils that were put
in the definition.

3489
02:11:00,045 --> 02:11:03,060
Those soils were
identified by the SCS as

3490
02:11:03,060 --> 02:11:04,769
additional lands in
the Willamette Valley

3491
02:11:04,769 --> 02:11:06,810
that are important
crop lands.

3492
02:11:06,810 --> 02:11:09,344
They actually have
crops growing on those.

3493
02:11:09,344 --> 02:11:11,790
And those were
identified by the SCS

3494
02:11:11,790 --> 02:11:14,459
and that would would tend

3495
02:11:14,459 --> 02:11:15,780
to make me believe
that those are

3496
02:11:15,780 --> 02:11:17,310
lands that this
commission may

3497
02:11:17,310 --> 02:11:18,630
have considered
at another time

3498
02:11:18,630 --> 02:11:20,609
because they are
actually in crops.

3499
02:11:20,609 --> 02:11:23,099
What kind of, what
kind of crops?

3500
02:11:23,099 --> 02:11:25,785
Grass seeds and mostly
grass seed lands.

3501
02:11:25,785 --> 02:11:28,844
Then we orchards,

3502
02:11:28,844 --> 02:11:32,369
vineyards,
vineyards, buries.

3503
02:11:32,369 --> 02:11:35,729
The grassy soils would
be mostly the 3.4

3504
02:11:35,729 --> 02:11:38,864
w. So the 3.4 E,

3505
02:11:38,864 --> 02:11:42,100
you usually find more
in the foothills.

3506
02:11:44,330 --> 02:11:47,685
So to make sure we're
all on the same sheet,

3507
02:11:47,685 --> 02:11:50,189
we're talking about
eight where I recall AUC

3508
02:11:50,189 --> 02:11:52,409
is right, wrong because,

3509
02:11:52,409 --> 02:11:54,660
you know, the uses that
we're talking about

3510
02:11:54,660 --> 02:11:55,770
abuses that have

3511
02:11:55,770 --> 02:11:57,704
dog kennels
destination resort,

3512
02:11:57,704 --> 02:12:00,180
they would have an
asterisk 18 on the list.

3513
02:12:00,180 --> 02:12:01,350
So as you go down
the list and I'll

3514
02:12:01,350 --> 02:12:03,224
just go down the
list real quick.

3515
02:12:03,224 --> 02:12:07,514
The kindling and
training of greyhounds,

3516
02:12:07,514 --> 02:12:12,134
dog kennels, destination
resorts, lost.

3517
02:12:12,134 --> 02:12:18,479
I'm starting on
a new 12424.

3518
02:12:18,479 --> 02:12:19,770
At the bottom you'll

3519
02:12:19,770 --> 02:12:22,605
see the outskirts
18, right?

3520
02:12:22,605 --> 02:12:23,099
The breeding,

3521
02:12:23,099 --> 02:12:24,750
candling and training
of Greyhound.

3522
02:12:24,750 --> 02:12:28,740
On the next page on
line ten, dog kennels.

3523
02:12:28,740 --> 02:12:31,919
On line 12,
destination resort.

3524
02:12:31,919 --> 02:12:34,740
Going to the next
page, page 26.

3525
02:12:34,740 --> 02:12:36,869
I see none on that page.

3526
02:12:36,869 --> 02:12:39,794
I'm on page 27, line 33,

3527
02:12:39,794 --> 02:12:41,430
you've got the solid

3528
02:12:41,430 --> 02:12:43,094
solid waste
disposal sites.

3529
02:12:43,094 --> 02:12:44,699
And then on the last page,

3530
02:12:44,699 --> 02:12:46,604
you have several
on line seven,

3531
02:12:46,604 --> 02:12:48,555
solid waste
disposal sites.

3532
02:12:48,555 --> 02:12:52,140
On line 16, the public
or private schools.

3533
02:12:52,140 --> 02:12:54,600
On line 19, churches and

3534
02:12:54,600 --> 02:12:57,524
cemeteries in conjunction
with the churches.

3535
02:12:57,524 --> 02:12:59,729
18 is the parks,
playgrounds,

3536
02:12:59,729 --> 02:13:00,330
hunting and fishing

3537
02:13:00,330 --> 02:13:01,769
preserves in camp grounds.

3538
02:13:01,769 --> 02:13:04,350
And I'm 29 or
the golf course.

3539
02:13:04,350 --> 02:13:07,005
Can I ask a really
stupid question?

3540
02:13:07,005 --> 02:13:10,500
Why is one of
these loud uses

3541
02:13:10,500 --> 02:13:12,120
in commercial breeding,

3542
02:13:12,120 --> 02:13:13,395
in kindling and trainee

3543
02:13:13,395 --> 02:13:18,584
greyhound racing in any
county, over 200,000.

3544
02:13:18,584 --> 02:13:22,320
Different heard of
Senator Glenn auto?

3545
02:13:22,320 --> 02:13:24,300
I just want to
hear the answer.

3546
02:13:24,300 --> 02:13:25,439
That's the answer.

3547
02:13:25,439 --> 02:13:27,480
I'll have it back
on up more than

3548
02:13:27,480 --> 02:13:28,530
I that was something
that came out with

3549
02:13:28,530 --> 02:13:29,849
the legislature.

3550
02:13:29,849 --> 02:13:32,134
Senator Glenn auto
committed status

3551
02:13:32,134 --> 02:13:34,335
was in the legislature
when they have yes.

3552
02:13:34,335 --> 02:13:37,080
Chairman of the local
government committee

3553
02:13:37,080 --> 02:13:38,504
in both the House
and the Senate.

3554
02:13:38,504 --> 02:13:41,310
And if you wanted
to do business with

3555
02:13:41,310 --> 02:13:42,809
him throughout
the legislative

3556
02:13:42,809 --> 02:13:44,265
his legislative career,

3557
02:13:44,265 --> 02:13:46,959
you had that change
to the statute.

3558
02:13:47,810 --> 02:13:49,979
Curious. So I'd like to

3559
02:13:49,979 --> 02:13:51,449
see if there's a
motion here on

3560
02:13:51,449 --> 02:13:52,605
a permanent
commissioner to

3561
02:13:52,605 --> 02:13:53,939
change anything that's

3562
02:13:53,939 --> 02:13:56,820
in this part of

3563
02:13:56,820 --> 02:14:03,880
the any of these star
a team you're doing.

3564
02:14:04,330 --> 02:14:05,720
Okay.

3565
02:14:05,720 --> 02:14:08,629
So there's no motion
to change anything.

3566
02:14:08,629 --> 02:14:10,610
I'm sorry, Mr. Chairman.

3567
02:14:10,610 --> 02:14:15,634
Yes. For a matter of
discussion, I guess.

3568
02:14:15,634 --> 02:14:17,374
Let's see if I can
get it second,

3569
02:14:17,374 --> 02:14:18,619
I'll move that we make

3570
02:14:18,619 --> 02:14:20,029
some changes in
here and allow

3571
02:14:20,029 --> 02:14:23,540
these uses on a class 3.4.

3572
02:14:23,540 --> 02:14:29,790
So it's going to
die a second.

3573
02:14:30,400 --> 02:14:33,509
Okay, there
isn't a second.

3574
02:14:35,200 --> 02:14:38,810
Now let's go
back to the stat

3575
02:14:38,810 --> 02:14:41,090
the issue is there
a where are we Are

3576
02:14:41,090 --> 02:14:42,980
we add motion to approve

3577
02:14:42,980 --> 02:14:44,569
the staff recommendation
or are we

3578
02:14:44,569 --> 02:14:47,190
at somebody else have
a different motion?

3579
02:14:47,240 --> 02:14:49,964
Mr. Chairman? I move.

3580
02:14:49,964 --> 02:14:51,615
Staff recommendation.

3581
02:14:51,615 --> 02:14:55,089
I'll second discussion.

3582
02:14:56,270 --> 02:14:58,619
The only comment I guess I

3583
02:14:58,619 --> 02:15:00,239
would offer is
the one I think

3584
02:15:00,239 --> 02:15:01,655
probably the only one
who wasn't here in

3585
02:15:01,655 --> 02:15:03,990
the secondary lands
debate where I suspect

3586
02:15:03,990 --> 02:15:08,609
a lot of this
testimony was

3587
02:15:08,609 --> 02:15:16,274
received is I guess I
would ask collectively,

3588
02:15:16,274 --> 02:15:18,749
there was a
guiding principle

3589
02:15:18,749 --> 02:15:19,830
or principles as to

3590
02:15:19,830 --> 02:15:22,155
how these specific uses

3591
02:15:22,155 --> 02:15:24,330
of coming to
be identified.

3592
02:15:24,330 --> 02:15:26,309
Because the magnitude
of impacts within

3593
02:15:26,309 --> 02:15:27,735
that category
is very great

3594
02:15:27,735 --> 02:15:29,010
in terms of the
difference.

3595
02:15:29,010 --> 02:15:30,449
I mean, you've
got horses on

3596
02:15:30,449 --> 02:15:30,989
the one hand and

3597
02:15:30,989 --> 02:15:32,534
the experience we
all know there.

3598
02:15:32,534 --> 02:15:34,139
You've got schools
and churches on

3599
02:15:34,139 --> 02:15:36,089
the other end of which you

3600
02:15:36,089 --> 02:15:37,410
had total county
by county in

3601
02:15:37,410 --> 02:15:39,450
my suspicion is you'd
see some fluctuation,

3602
02:15:39,450 --> 02:15:40,860
but there aren't a
lot of them out there

3603
02:15:40,860 --> 02:15:42,345
being approved on
a regular basis,

3604
02:15:42,345 --> 02:15:42,785
if you will.

3605
02:15:42,785 --> 02:15:47,160
And I guess I'm
curious as to,

3606
02:15:47,160 --> 02:15:48,449
as to what the history

3607
02:15:48,449 --> 02:15:50,759
is bad in terms
of that debate.

3608
02:15:50,759 --> 02:15:53,369
Maybe I'm asking
is that well,

3609
02:15:53,369 --> 02:15:55,139
I can tell you what
the story is thinking

3610
02:15:55,139 --> 02:15:57,629
about and the
commissioners are here.

3611
02:15:57,629 --> 02:16:00,839
Essentially, we
looked at the list of

3612
02:16:00,839 --> 02:16:03,509
uses and Mrs.
Melissa lives in

3613
02:16:03,509 --> 02:16:06,060
the statute and asked

3614
02:16:06,060 --> 02:16:10,769
which ones often
are located

3615
02:16:10,769 --> 02:16:15,479
on high-value farmland and

3616
02:16:15,479 --> 02:16:16,710
which ones seem to

3617
02:16:16,710 --> 02:16:18,794
be threatening
high-value farmland?

3618
02:16:18,794 --> 02:16:21,239
That was one principle
in which one's,

3619
02:16:21,239 --> 02:16:23,939
which ones really often

3620
02:16:23,939 --> 02:16:26,115
have to be wherever
they have to be,

3621
02:16:26,115 --> 02:16:27,794
whether it's high
value or not.

3622
02:16:27,794 --> 02:16:29,639
And those we said, even

3623
02:16:29,639 --> 02:16:30,749
though there may be

3624
02:16:30,749 --> 02:16:32,790
an adverse effect
on agriculture,

3625
02:16:32,790 --> 02:16:34,409
we don't have much control
over them as well.

3626
02:16:34,409 --> 02:16:36,749
The golf courses question

3627
02:16:36,749 --> 02:16:38,804
really emerged
from a long,

3628
02:16:38,804 --> 02:16:41,040
lengthy study that
the department

3629
02:16:41,040 --> 02:16:42,780
and the commission
had done.

3630
02:16:42,780 --> 02:16:45,629
Because there
was a seem to be

3631
02:16:45,629 --> 02:16:48,749
a large number of golf
courses coming in,

3632
02:16:48,749 --> 02:16:50,160
not only to the
Willamette Valley,

3633
02:16:50,160 --> 02:16:53,175
but some other important
agricultural areas,

3634
02:16:53,175 --> 02:16:55,904
Hood River Valley, the
Rogue River Valley.

3635
02:16:55,904 --> 02:16:57,720
And the recommendation
that came out of

3636
02:16:57,720 --> 02:16:59,565
that task force was

3637
02:16:59,565 --> 02:17:01,800
there ought to be
some limitation

3638
02:17:01,800 --> 02:17:03,900
on golf courses on
the better land.

3639
02:17:03,900 --> 02:17:05,850
That's really how
golf course has

3640
02:17:05,850 --> 02:17:07,965
gotten there and
the other uses.

3641
02:17:07,965 --> 02:17:12,389
We also had some experiences
with schools and

3642
02:17:12,389 --> 02:17:17,519
churches on
very good land,

3643
02:17:17,519 --> 02:17:18,569
not just in the valley,

3644
02:17:18,569 --> 02:17:19,935
but other places as well.

3645
02:17:19,935 --> 02:17:23,670
So I can't say that it
was a scientific Well,

3646
02:17:23,670 --> 02:17:25,079
it sounds like it was
almost the opposite

3647
02:17:25,079 --> 02:17:26,189
of what I might
have assumed in a

3648
02:17:26,189 --> 02:17:28,664
rather than identify
those uses which were

3649
02:17:28,664 --> 02:17:32,069
found to have actual
predominant impacts.

3650
02:17:32,069 --> 02:17:34,649
You identified those
uses which may have

3651
02:17:34,649 --> 02:17:36,720
locational requirements
that would

3652
02:17:36,720 --> 02:17:38,519
justify or requires
replacement.

3653
02:17:38,519 --> 02:17:41,564
And we were doing
both things.

3654
02:17:41,564 --> 02:17:44,294
Okay. Well, okay,
just to an atom,

3655
02:17:44,294 --> 02:17:45,329
we were doing both things.

3656
02:17:45,329 --> 02:17:46,949
And if you look
at the situations

3657
02:17:46,949 --> 02:17:49,065
with churches and
schools, e.g.

3658
02:17:49,065 --> 02:17:50,820
there's the one limitation
that talks about

3659
02:17:50,820 --> 02:17:53,025
within 3 mi of an
urban growth boundary.

3660
02:17:53,025 --> 02:17:54,735
And we've also
had experiences

3661
02:17:54,735 --> 02:17:56,219
of these types of
facilities being

3662
02:17:56,219 --> 02:17:58,260
located outside an urban
growth boundary on

3663
02:17:58,260 --> 02:18:00,179
high-value farmland
that are not

3664
02:18:00,179 --> 02:18:02,430
servicing the rural
agricultural community.

3665
02:18:02,430 --> 02:18:04,289
They're servicing
that urban area.

3666
02:18:04,289 --> 02:18:05,850
People are driving
out to that church,

3667
02:18:05,850 --> 02:18:07,365
you're driving out
to that school.

3668
02:18:07,365 --> 02:18:09,540
And that was that was a
concern to the staff.

3669
02:18:09,540 --> 02:18:11,399
Also really wasn't
a rural service.

3670
02:18:11,399 --> 02:18:13,509
It was an urban service.

3671
02:18:15,380 --> 02:18:17,159
Well, I might comment

3672
02:18:17,159 --> 02:18:18,165
that there's one
of these that

3673
02:18:18,165 --> 02:18:20,025
I little bit question

3674
02:18:20,025 --> 02:18:21,209
that I am doing
the right thing,

3675
02:18:21,209 --> 02:18:22,634
but I voted the
way I did simply.

3676
02:18:22,634 --> 02:18:24,284
It's the dog kennel one.

3677
02:18:24,284 --> 02:18:25,859
These are things
that don't take up

3678
02:18:25,859 --> 02:18:26,910
very much land and they

3679
02:18:26,910 --> 02:18:28,080
really shouldn't
be located

3680
02:18:28,080 --> 02:18:29,430
further close to
the urban area.

3681
02:18:29,430 --> 02:18:30,420
People are always drive it

3682
02:18:30,420 --> 02:18:31,529
out there and
yet they can't

3683
02:18:31,529 --> 02:18:33,840
be in the urban
area legitimately.

3684
02:18:33,840 --> 02:18:37,379
And it tears me a
little bit to say

3685
02:18:37,379 --> 02:18:39,119
that they can't go
where they probably

3686
02:18:39,119 --> 02:18:39,630
ought to go for

3687
02:18:39,630 --> 02:18:40,980
the convenience
of the public.

3688
02:18:40,980 --> 02:18:42,149
They're going to
have to go wherever

3689
02:18:42,149 --> 02:18:43,530
that land can be found.

3690
02:18:43,530 --> 02:18:45,719
But I guess they're

3691
02:18:45,719 --> 02:18:47,294
already out
there basically.

3692
02:18:47,294 --> 02:18:49,919
And so they're gonna
be able to continue.

3693
02:18:49,919 --> 02:18:50,489
I don't think there's

3694
02:18:50,489 --> 02:18:51,599
anything in here that they

3695
02:18:51,599 --> 02:18:53,819
can't go ahead
with the ones

3696
02:18:53,819 --> 02:18:54,719
that are located and

3697
02:18:54,719 --> 02:18:55,650
there's nothing precluding

3698
02:18:55,650 --> 02:18:57,720
them in Rural Residential
exception areas,

3699
02:18:57,720 --> 02:18:58,140
e.g.

3700
02:18:58,140 --> 02:19:00,449
I. Know that there's
people there,

3701
02:19:00,449 --> 02:19:01,380
but look at some of

3702
02:19:01,380 --> 02:19:03,675
the residential
exception better.

3703
02:19:03,675 --> 02:19:05,189
Look at some of the
rural residential

3704
02:19:05,189 --> 02:19:06,210
exception dairies
out there.

3705
02:19:06,210 --> 02:19:07,994
You're talking about
ten acre lots?

3706
02:19:07,994 --> 02:19:10,289
Yeah. I mean, I've

3707
02:19:10,289 --> 02:19:11,790
lived in those areas
and there's candles

3708
02:19:11,790 --> 02:19:12,929
there and it's what's
the difference

3709
02:19:12,929 --> 02:19:14,369
between that and an area

3710
02:19:14,369 --> 02:19:16,034
that's small-scale
agricultural area

3711
02:19:16,034 --> 02:19:17,430
on 10.20 acre lot.

3712
02:19:17,430 --> 02:19:17,850
Here.

3713
02:19:17,850 --> 02:19:18,900
To give you an example,

3714
02:19:18,900 --> 02:19:20,340
I know of a candle
that was approved in

3715
02:19:20,340 --> 02:19:22,230
a rural residential
exception area

3716
02:19:22,230 --> 02:19:25,709
last year with 240
plus dogs in it,

3717
02:19:25,709 --> 02:19:28,544
and it was approved
with no appeal filed.

3718
02:19:28,544 --> 02:19:30,479
So it is quite possible to

3719
02:19:30,479 --> 02:19:32,204
put a dog kennel and
insignificant scale.

3720
02:19:32,204 --> 02:19:33,539
Well, that reassures me.

3721
02:19:33,539 --> 02:19:34,960
Thank you.

3722
02:19:39,230 --> 02:19:41,669
There are also a
conditional use

3723
02:19:41,669 --> 02:19:44,385
in non high-value FU.

3724
02:19:44,385 --> 02:19:45,660
Well, you're gonna get

3725
02:19:45,660 --> 02:19:47,100
the same issue as
a conditional use

3726
02:19:47,100 --> 02:19:49,214
with its row residual
approximately,

3727
02:19:49,214 --> 02:19:50,970
dwellings is
not necessarily

3728
02:19:50,970 --> 02:19:52,739
inherently greater in
the reception area.

3729
02:19:52,739 --> 02:19:59,160
It's parcels Asian.
Further discussion.

3730
02:19:59,160 --> 02:20:03,420
Okay. All those in
favor of the motion?

3731
02:20:03,420 --> 02:20:06,870
I pose no.

3732
02:20:06,870 --> 02:20:09,960
Carries unanimously.
Okay. Why don't we

3733
02:20:09,960 --> 02:20:12,734
take start with
marginal lands.

3734
02:20:12,734 --> 02:20:14,369
We said earlier we

3735
02:20:14,369 --> 02:20:15,689
thought we'd get to
it before lunch.

3736
02:20:15,689 --> 02:20:17,639
Let's get into it.

3737
02:20:17,639 --> 02:20:20,310
And unless
commissioners would

3738
02:20:20,310 --> 02:20:21,149
like to do something

3739
02:20:21,149 --> 02:20:22,874
else between
now and lunch,

3740
02:20:22,874 --> 02:20:24,480
miles, that would be

3741
02:20:24,480 --> 02:20:25,635
with the people
that I know.

3742
02:20:25,635 --> 02:20:26,849
My sense is that
people that are

3743
02:20:26,849 --> 02:20:28,379
waiting for this audience,

3744
02:20:28,379 --> 02:20:30,390
it would be nice
to take this leg

3745
02:20:30,390 --> 02:20:32,894
up now and okay.
Maybe a single issue.

3746
02:20:32,894 --> 02:20:35,310
Yeah. Okay. So we take

3747
02:20:35,310 --> 02:20:38,619
up item three on our list.

3748
02:20:40,640 --> 02:20:44,879
We take two or 3 min,
quick restroom break.

3749
02:20:44,879 --> 02:20:45,600
Okay.

3750
02:20:45,600 --> 02:20:48,270
Well, why don't
we take a take

3751
02:20:48,270 --> 02:20:50,219
a three-minute as quick as

3752
02:20:50,219 --> 02:20:51,105
a restroom break and

3753
02:20:51,105 --> 02:20:52,514
we'll come back three now.

3754
02:20:52,514 --> 02:20:56,289
Three, whatever it takes.

3755
02:20:58,340 --> 02:21:01,860
Discussions with
one or more of

3756
02:21:01,860 --> 02:21:03,690
the two marginal
land counties about

3757
02:21:03,690 --> 02:21:05,549
what the issue is from
their point of view.

3758
02:21:05,549 --> 02:21:06,779
So I think there has been

3759
02:21:06,779 --> 02:21:08,460
a fairly heavy briefing

3760
02:21:08,460 --> 02:21:10,529
of commission members
about this issue.

3761
02:21:10,529 --> 02:21:13,200
Is that basically correct?

3762
02:21:13,200 --> 02:21:16,064
I know I had a meeting
and nobody else.

3763
02:21:16,064 --> 02:21:18,270
So there's considerable
knowledge and

3764
02:21:18,270 --> 02:21:21,570
the commissioners
mind about

3765
02:21:21,570 --> 02:21:23,430
what we're talking
about here.

3766
02:21:23,430 --> 02:21:26,250
Do you staff wanted

3767
02:21:26,250 --> 02:21:28,499
just to kick this off
frame the issue for

3768
02:21:28,499 --> 02:21:29,609
us would be really

3769
02:21:29,609 --> 02:21:30,870
far as to say
that it would be

3770
02:21:30,870 --> 02:21:33,959
appropriate for us as
disclose any context.

3771
02:21:33,959 --> 02:21:35,489
I don't think you have to.

3772
02:21:35,489 --> 02:21:38,170
It's some legislative.
Legislative.

3773
02:21:38,270 --> 02:21:41,954
No, you don't have to
disclose any comments.

3774
02:21:41,954 --> 02:21:43,739
I just want to make
sure the audience knew

3775
02:21:43,739 --> 02:21:44,849
that we weren't
just jumping into

3776
02:21:44,849 --> 02:21:46,320
this coal that we had

3777
02:21:46,320 --> 02:21:48,990
thought about it
to considerably.

3778
02:21:48,990 --> 02:21:53,280
Your issues paper
on pages 6 and 7.

3779
02:21:53,280 --> 02:21:59,489
And in about a page
talks about the issue.

3780
02:21:59,489 --> 02:22:01,560
The question is, should

3781
02:22:01,560 --> 02:22:03,000
the high-value finally and

3782
02:22:03,000 --> 02:22:07,199
rules apply to marginal
lands counties?

3783
02:22:07,199 --> 02:22:09,210
I presume that you've read

3784
02:22:09,210 --> 02:22:11,520
the brief discussion
and the recommendation

3785
02:22:11,520 --> 02:22:14,520
and whatnot in you because

3786
02:22:14,520 --> 02:22:16,170
you've had much discussion

3787
02:22:16,170 --> 02:22:17,804
about this over
the last week.

3788
02:22:17,804 --> 02:22:19,304
I don't really I don't

3789
02:22:19,304 --> 02:22:20,790
I will respond
to questions,

3790
02:22:20,790 --> 02:22:21,990
but I don't want to
use up a whole lot of

3791
02:22:21,990 --> 02:22:23,370
your time going
over ground that

3792
02:22:23,370 --> 02:22:24,629
you're very familiar

3793
02:22:24,629 --> 02:22:27,040
with from those
discussions.

3794
02:22:28,130 --> 02:22:30,465
There's a legal issue.

3795
02:22:30,465 --> 02:22:32,849
Of course, in a
policy issue,

3796
02:22:32,849 --> 02:22:34,800
the two marginal
lands counties

3797
02:22:34,800 --> 02:22:37,200
have raised the legal
issue and said that

3798
02:22:37,200 --> 02:22:39,240
the commission does
not have the authority

3799
02:22:39,240 --> 02:22:41,310
to limit uses that are

3800
02:22:41,310 --> 02:22:42,809
listed in 215 to

3801
02:22:42,809 --> 02:22:45,629
13 of the marginal
lands law.

3802
02:22:45,629 --> 02:22:48,765
And then there's the
policy question.

3803
02:22:48,765 --> 02:22:51,825
Assuming that you do
have that authority.

3804
02:22:51,825 --> 02:22:54,659
Do you want the
high-value farmland rules

3805
02:22:54,659 --> 02:22:56,730
to apply to the two
marginal lands, counties.

3806
02:22:56,730 --> 02:22:58,649
Those are essentially
the two things

3807
02:22:58,649 --> 02:23:00,345
I guess you
need to decide.

3808
02:23:00,345 --> 02:23:03,104
And as we've told
you in the past,

3809
02:23:03,104 --> 02:23:05,625
when this came up at
the last work session,

3810
02:23:05,625 --> 02:23:07,574
the Attorney
General's office

3811
02:23:07,574 --> 02:23:10,050
has done a good bit
of thinking about

3812
02:23:10,050 --> 02:23:12,555
this and
collaboration with

3813
02:23:12,555 --> 02:23:14,610
Celeste has collaborated
with a colleague,

3814
02:23:14,610 --> 02:23:18,389
so she's prepared to
discuss it with you.

3815
02:23:18,389 --> 02:23:21,614
If just as a reminder,

3816
02:23:21,614 --> 02:23:26,580
this issue is in
litigation as a result of

3817
02:23:26,580 --> 02:23:28,770
a lawsuit filed after

3818
02:23:28,770 --> 02:23:32,340
the 1992 rules
by Lane County,

3819
02:23:32,340 --> 02:23:34,185
one of the marginal
lands counties.

3820
02:23:34,185 --> 02:23:36,480
So if you decide

3821
02:23:36,480 --> 02:23:37,590
that you really
want to get into

3822
02:23:37,590 --> 02:23:39,060
the legal issue
and discuss

3823
02:23:39,060 --> 02:23:39,900
the merits of it and

3824
02:23:39,900 --> 02:23:41,910
the arguments
and all of that.

3825
02:23:41,910 --> 02:23:44,610
So last recommendation
would be that you

3826
02:23:44,610 --> 02:23:46,785
do that in
executive session.

3827
02:23:46,785 --> 02:23:48,390
On the other hand, if
you want to talk about

3828
02:23:48,390 --> 02:23:51,374
the policy
questions involved,

3829
02:23:51,374 --> 02:23:54,089
no need to go into
executive session and you

3830
02:23:54,089 --> 02:23:55,470
probably can't go
into executive

3831
02:23:55,470 --> 02:23:57,759
session to discuss that.

3832
02:23:57,950 --> 02:24:01,200
One question on
that latter point.

3833
02:24:01,200 --> 02:24:03,299
Are you saying we
want to go into

3834
02:24:03,299 --> 02:24:05,039
executive session to
discuss the issue,

3835
02:24:05,039 --> 02:24:08,295
whether The issue isn't,

3836
02:24:08,295 --> 02:24:09,885
even whether this issue is

3837
02:24:09,885 --> 02:24:11,610
litigation and
whether it might be

3838
02:24:11,610 --> 02:24:14,850
resolved by the courts
and litigation and

3839
02:24:14,850 --> 02:24:16,020
in fact would
be rendered jus

3840
02:24:16,020 --> 02:24:17,100
just a question

3841
02:24:17,100 --> 02:24:18,119
of whether we are
in litigated.

3842
02:24:18,119 --> 02:24:19,469
That's an argument
that people look at,

3843
02:24:19,469 --> 02:24:21,764
you know, the litigation.

3844
02:24:21,764 --> 02:24:24,059
The question I
would we're varying

3845
02:24:24,059 --> 02:24:25,590
different opinions on
I think is whether

3846
02:24:25,590 --> 02:24:28,004
that litigation we'll
move this issue.

3847
02:24:28,004 --> 02:24:30,149
My recommendation would be

3848
02:24:30,149 --> 02:24:31,260
that if you
want to discuss

3849
02:24:31,260 --> 02:24:32,489
the legal basis fear

3850
02:24:32,489 --> 02:24:33,900
authority to take
this action,

3851
02:24:33,900 --> 02:24:36,119
we go into executive
session because there is

3852
02:24:36,119 --> 02:24:37,889
litigation
pending and there

3853
02:24:37,889 --> 02:24:39,690
is likely to
be litigation,

3854
02:24:39,690 --> 02:24:41,954
further litigation if
you take this action.

3855
02:24:41,954 --> 02:24:42,660
Yeah, I'm thinking of

3856
02:24:42,660 --> 02:24:44,790
the other contexts
whether that pending

3857
02:24:44,790 --> 02:24:46,499
current pending
litigation will

3858
02:24:46,499 --> 02:24:49,000
in fact resolve
this issue?

3859
02:24:49,010 --> 02:24:52,995
I'm not sure that it will.

3860
02:24:52,995 --> 02:24:54,869
The briefing
was done before

3861
02:24:54,869 --> 02:24:58,139
36 61 went into effect.

3862
02:24:58,139 --> 02:25:02,210
And to squarely hit
this issue after 36,

3863
02:25:02,210 --> 02:25:03,300
61, I think they will need

3864
02:25:03,300 --> 02:25:05,025
to be some real briefing.

3865
02:25:05,025 --> 02:25:06,930
However, Celeste,
would you

3866
02:25:06,930 --> 02:25:08,384
not say that if if

3867
02:25:08,384 --> 02:25:10,380
Lane County prevailed on

3868
02:25:10,380 --> 02:25:13,379
its claims raised
in that litigation,

3869
02:25:13,379 --> 02:25:16,199
it would be mood
That's true.

3870
02:25:16,199 --> 02:25:17,054
That's true.

3871
02:25:17,054 --> 02:25:19,229
Because it would settle
the question that

3872
02:25:19,229 --> 02:25:21,615
was that at least
some people

3873
02:25:21,615 --> 02:25:27,179
alleged is addressed by
Section 28 of 36 61.

3874
02:25:27,179 --> 02:25:32,159
But that section
litigation briefing

3875
02:25:32,159 --> 02:25:33,479
and that argument is based

3876
02:25:33,479 --> 02:25:35,414
specifically on
the new section.

3877
02:25:35,414 --> 02:25:37,799
How could they well,

3878
02:25:37,799 --> 02:25:40,019
they would say that
gives them additional.

3879
02:25:40,019 --> 02:25:43,020
Did the argument is
that even before 36 61,

3880
02:25:43,020 --> 02:25:44,039
the commission
did not have

3881
02:25:44,039 --> 02:25:46,509
the authority. Okay.

3882
02:25:55,280 --> 02:25:59,294
Well, I for one

3883
02:25:59,294 --> 02:26:03,300
have seen the materials
and I had but

3884
02:26:03,300 --> 02:26:05,010
a very brief conversation

3885
02:26:05,010 --> 02:26:06,149
with a couple
of people for

3886
02:26:06,149 --> 02:26:09,180
five-minutes from
Washington County

3887
02:26:09,180 --> 02:26:10,845
at five to nine
this morning.

3888
02:26:10,845 --> 02:26:12,060
So I had a little bit of

3889
02:26:12,060 --> 02:26:14,340
a benefit of of
that viewpoint,

3890
02:26:14,340 --> 02:26:15,929
but actually very little.

3891
02:26:15,929 --> 02:26:19,244
I've seen the materials.

3892
02:26:19,244 --> 02:26:23,610
I'm about 90% concluded

3893
02:26:23,610 --> 02:26:25,500
on the legal questions
in my own mind,

3894
02:26:25,500 --> 02:26:28,845
but I guess I'd be
interested in having

3895
02:26:28,845 --> 02:26:32,040
a presentation and
maybe a little bit of

3896
02:26:32,040 --> 02:26:33,750
discussion on those
legal questions

3897
02:26:33,750 --> 02:26:35,595
just to get that settled.

3898
02:26:35,595 --> 02:26:37,649
I think my primary
interest is

3899
02:26:37,649 --> 02:26:40,379
in the in the policy side.

3900
02:26:40,379 --> 02:26:44,609
Maybe we ought to
ask the two sides.

3901
02:26:44,609 --> 02:26:47,009
One to tell us

3902
02:26:47,009 --> 02:26:48,839
why we should apply

3903
02:26:48,839 --> 02:26:50,160
it to marginal
land counties.

3904
02:26:50,160 --> 02:26:51,300
And the other side,
it tells us why

3905
02:26:51,300 --> 02:26:52,844
not and just
listened to that.

3906
02:26:52,844 --> 02:26:55,720
Succinctly
articulated it again.

3907
02:26:56,540 --> 02:26:58,784
A lot of policy or

3908
02:26:58,784 --> 02:27:01,679
policy arguments
as to why,

3909
02:27:01,679 --> 02:27:02,999
regardless of
whether we are

3910
02:27:02,999 --> 02:27:04,335
assuming we have
the authority,

3911
02:27:04,335 --> 02:27:06,000
why we should or should
not exercise it.

3912
02:27:06,000 --> 02:27:07,184
Yeah.

3913
02:27:07,184 --> 02:27:09,689
What do you, Mr.
Chair? Just just

3914
02:27:09,689 --> 02:27:11,670
before we get into
that discussion,

3915
02:27:11,670 --> 02:27:12,959
I would like to point
out that there were

3916
02:27:12,959 --> 02:27:15,240
some minor changes
made to the rules,

3917
02:27:15,240 --> 02:27:19,964
accounting for the
useless ten to 13

3918
02:27:19,964 --> 02:27:22,484
on non high-value farmland

3919
02:27:22,484 --> 02:27:23,550
in the EFL zones

3920
02:27:23,550 --> 02:27:25,125
in the marginal
lands counties.

3921
02:27:25,125 --> 02:27:29,880
There's changes to the
rules at page 37 of

3922
02:27:29,880 --> 02:27:35,774
the February 17th
draft, line eight,

3923
02:27:35,774 --> 02:27:38,550
which provides that

3924
02:27:38,550 --> 02:27:41,610
the marginal lands
counties can still

3925
02:27:41,610 --> 02:27:46,109
apply the standards in to

3926
02:27:46,109 --> 02:27:48,765
15 to 134 non-prime
dwellings

3927
02:27:48,765 --> 02:27:52,844
on non high-value
EF you zoned land.

3928
02:27:52,844 --> 02:27:54,705
And then the other change

3929
02:27:54,705 --> 02:27:58,484
is on the very last
page of that packet,

3930
02:27:58,484 --> 02:28:00,779
attachment one

3931
02:28:00,779 --> 02:28:04,919
for the changes
for division 33,

3932
02:28:04,919 --> 02:28:06,569
which basically
does the same thing

3933
02:28:06,569 --> 02:28:08,265
for the farm dwellings.

3934
02:28:08,265 --> 02:28:09,510
You refuse own that is

3935
02:28:09,510 --> 02:28:10,680
not high-value farmland in

3936
02:28:10,680 --> 02:28:12,870
the non marginalized
counties or excuse me,

3937
02:28:12,870 --> 02:28:14,919
the marginal
lands counties.

3938
02:28:14,990 --> 02:28:16,935
A second.

3939
02:28:16,935 --> 02:28:19,709
It's on the back
of attachment one,

3940
02:28:19,709 --> 02:28:21,749
which is done the very end

3941
02:28:21,749 --> 02:28:24,359
of the packet on what's
attached to one got

3942
02:28:24,359 --> 02:28:27,360
to do with the last
minute recommendation

3943
02:28:27,360 --> 02:28:30,449
for changes to
the division 33.

3944
02:28:30,449 --> 02:28:34,050
In other words, for

3945
02:28:34,050 --> 02:28:36,510
those portions
of EFG zones

3946
02:28:36,510 --> 02:28:38,219
and marginal
lands counties,

3947
02:28:38,219 --> 02:28:40,725
which are not
high-value farmland.

3948
02:28:40,725 --> 02:28:43,949
The rules with respect
to farm dwellings in

3949
02:28:43,949 --> 02:28:45,749
non-farm dwellings
would be

3950
02:28:45,749 --> 02:28:48,070
the marginal lands rules.

3951
02:28:48,140 --> 02:28:51,764
To tack onto that. What
the attachment is,

3952
02:28:51,764 --> 02:28:53,189
Commissioners, is

3953
02:28:53,189 --> 02:28:54,900
the deed department's
recommendation

3954
02:28:54,900 --> 02:28:56,910
for the farm
dwelling guest.

3955
02:28:56,910 --> 02:28:58,560
And whatever test

3956
02:28:58,560 --> 02:28:59,729
the commission
would choose,

3957
02:28:59,729 --> 02:29:01,874
we would recommend that
language be in there,

3958
02:29:01,874 --> 02:29:04,470
recognizing
like we haven't

3959
02:29:04,470 --> 02:29:05,700
sub B on the last page,

3960
02:29:05,700 --> 02:29:06,779
recognizing that on those

3961
02:29:06,779 --> 02:29:09,990
non high-value few lands

3962
02:29:09,990 --> 02:29:11,129
and a marginal
lands County,

3963
02:29:11,129 --> 02:29:11,790
the test that would

3964
02:29:11,790 --> 02:29:13,004
apply for farmed dwellings

3965
02:29:13,004 --> 02:29:15,210
is the test that's
outlined there

3966
02:29:15,210 --> 02:29:17,010
and nowhere else to 15 to

3967
02:29:17,010 --> 02:29:19,090
13 sub two.

3968
02:29:41,780 --> 02:29:44,235
Okay.

3969
02:29:44,235 --> 02:29:47,160
What Washington County or

3970
02:29:47,160 --> 02:29:48,510
link county or, you know,

3971
02:29:48,510 --> 02:29:49,919
between you or maybe
you'd like to come

3972
02:29:49,919 --> 02:29:51,944
up both and make,

3973
02:29:51,944 --> 02:29:55,259
give us a clear and
concise and argument from

3974
02:29:55,259 --> 02:29:56,880
the policy point
of view as to why

3975
02:29:56,880 --> 02:29:59,475
we should not apply.

3976
02:29:59,475 --> 02:30:01,140
If you'd like to come
up both together.

3977
02:30:01,140 --> 02:30:02,939
And then those
of you who would

3978
02:30:02,939 --> 02:30:05,114
like us to be the
opposite side,

3979
02:30:05,114 --> 02:30:06,299
you can think
about who would

3980
02:30:06,299 --> 02:30:08,889
come up and make
the argument.

3981
02:30:16,490 --> 02:30:18,300
Thank you, Mr. Chairman,

3982
02:30:18,300 --> 02:30:19,799
Commissioners, my
name is Brent Curtis.

3983
02:30:19,799 --> 02:30:20,880
I'm the planning
manager for

3984
02:30:20,880 --> 02:30:21,989
Washington County
and with me

3985
02:30:21,989 --> 02:30:22,770
as David Nor and

3986
02:30:22,770 --> 02:30:24,375
from Canada
counsel's office,

3987
02:30:24,375 --> 02:30:25,799
Chairman, Hey,
is this here

3988
02:30:25,799 --> 02:30:27,960
as well as Joanne rice?

3989
02:30:27,960 --> 02:30:30,180
This is Roy Burns.

3990
02:30:30,180 --> 02:30:33,314
We do have because this
is a work session.

3991
02:30:33,314 --> 02:30:37,245
What we wanna do to
assist you in this issue

3992
02:30:37,245 --> 02:30:39,899
is we brought some
additional material

3993
02:30:39,899 --> 02:30:41,805
that we'd like
to pass out.

3994
02:30:41,805 --> 02:30:43,875
The bulk of it is
different than this thing.

3995
02:30:43,875 --> 02:30:45,480
It is that, that stuff.

3996
02:30:45,480 --> 02:30:47,279
And if you don't
have the material

3997
02:30:47,279 --> 02:30:48,375
that's bound here

3998
02:30:48,375 --> 02:30:50,010
is exactly the same thing

3999
02:30:50,010 --> 02:30:51,479
as we pass that at
the last hearing.

4000
02:30:51,479 --> 02:30:52,079
If you don't have it,

4001
02:30:52,079 --> 02:30:53,744
we can provide it to you.

4002
02:30:53,744 --> 02:30:54,989
Additionally,

4003
02:30:54,989 --> 02:30:57,539
we have two
additional pieces of

4004
02:30:57,539 --> 02:30:58,560
information that
we'd like you

4005
02:30:58,560 --> 02:31:00,960
to open the hearing
to receive,

4006
02:31:00,960 --> 02:31:03,330
so it goes into your
record and I'll tell you

4007
02:31:03,330 --> 02:31:05,819
what they are if you'd
like to know first,

4008
02:31:05,819 --> 02:31:07,859
is that in this packet

4009
02:31:07,859 --> 02:31:09,194
that you received
on the 20th,

4010
02:31:09,194 --> 02:31:11,129
we provided you not
only our argument,

4011
02:31:11,129 --> 02:31:13,830
but language that
you could if

4012
02:31:13,830 --> 02:31:16,995
you wish to see the
issues are way.

4013
02:31:16,995 --> 02:31:19,200
Since that time we
have gone back and

4014
02:31:19,200 --> 02:31:20,760
looked at and sharpen

4015
02:31:20,760 --> 02:31:21,689
the language a little bit.

4016
02:31:21,689 --> 02:31:22,829
It's substantially
the same,

4017
02:31:22,829 --> 02:31:24,300
but we would like
to provide it

4018
02:31:24,300 --> 02:31:25,080
to you so you would

4019
02:31:25,080 --> 02:31:26,040
actually have a
new language.

4020
02:31:26,040 --> 02:31:27,314
You give that to
us right now?

4021
02:31:27,314 --> 02:31:28,679
Yes. Okay. The other thing

4022
02:31:28,679 --> 02:31:29,729
that we can provide to you

4023
02:31:29,729 --> 02:31:33,420
is in regard to the
policy question.

4024
02:31:33,420 --> 02:31:34,169
Putting aside

4025
02:31:34,169 --> 02:31:35,159
the legal question
for a minute.

4026
02:31:35,159 --> 02:31:36,959
The policy question is,

4027
02:31:36,959 --> 02:31:39,689
how how might
this operate if

4028
02:31:39,689 --> 02:31:40,979
the system remain the same

4029
02:31:40,979 --> 02:31:42,270
as Washington
County wishes?

4030
02:31:42,270 --> 02:31:43,349
What Lane County,

4031
02:31:43,349 --> 02:31:44,939
which is in
Washington County,

4032
02:31:44,939 --> 02:31:47,595
particularly in
regard to uses.

4033
02:31:47,595 --> 02:31:49,079
And we have some
information

4034
02:31:49,079 --> 02:31:50,684
that can talk
about basically

4035
02:31:50,684 --> 02:31:52,229
how the rural
land model is

4036
02:31:52,229 --> 02:31:54,240
operating with regard to

4037
02:31:54,240 --> 02:31:55,480
uses in Washington County.

4038
02:31:55,480 --> 02:31:57,425
And we'd like to provide
that to you as well.

4039
02:31:57,425 --> 02:31:58,649
And that can provide you

4040
02:31:58,649 --> 02:32:00,689
with some
information about

4041
02:32:00,689 --> 02:32:03,179
our fundamental
argument that

4042
02:32:03,179 --> 02:32:06,000
the real existing
marginal land,

4043
02:32:06,000 --> 02:32:09,450
EFTUD2, 15 to 13 model
is working well in

4044
02:32:09,450 --> 02:32:11,429
Washington County and that

4045
02:32:11,429 --> 02:32:14,324
we would like to keep it.

4046
02:32:14,324 --> 02:32:17,249
The policy question
that you might ask is

4047
02:32:17,249 --> 02:32:19,320
this information
provides you

4048
02:32:19,320 --> 02:32:20,459
a basis for looking at

4049
02:32:20,459 --> 02:32:23,294
just how well it works
in regard to uses?

4050
02:32:23,294 --> 02:32:24,839
At the last
hearing, I talked

4051
02:32:24,839 --> 02:32:27,780
about dwellings
and that's in

4052
02:32:27,780 --> 02:32:29,640
the packet and you
previously received and I

4053
02:32:29,640 --> 02:32:32,279
talked about
land divisions,

4054
02:32:32,279 --> 02:32:33,525
if you recall there my

4055
02:32:33,525 --> 02:32:34,620
argument was
that there were

4056
02:32:34,620 --> 02:32:37,290
very few dwellings
that were going on in

4057
02:32:37,290 --> 02:32:38,670
that area and
that there was

4058
02:32:38,670 --> 02:32:40,814
really since 1983,

4059
02:32:40,814 --> 02:32:42,899
no lot divisions,

4060
02:32:42,899 --> 02:32:44,549
they additional
information talks about

4061
02:32:44,549 --> 02:32:46,139
those other uses
like golf courses,

4062
02:32:46,139 --> 02:32:47,519
schools, churches,
and the like.

4063
02:32:47,519 --> 02:32:49,170
So I would like to have

4064
02:32:49,170 --> 02:32:51,899
you take that
into the record.

4065
02:32:51,899 --> 02:32:53,054
Okay.

4066
02:32:53,054 --> 02:32:54,930
You made the comment,
reopened the hearing.

4067
02:32:54,930 --> 02:32:56,069
We're not reopening
the hearing,

4068
02:32:56,069 --> 02:32:59,759
but we have the
ability to ask

4069
02:32:59,759 --> 02:33:01,529
people questions and
you already know from

4070
02:33:01,529 --> 02:33:03,569
the day we receive
all kinds of papers.

4071
02:33:03,569 --> 02:33:05,520
So the hearings
that reopened,

4072
02:33:05,520 --> 02:33:07,664
but we can certainly
take this paper.

4073
02:33:07,664 --> 02:33:09,839
Okay. As long
as it's there,

4074
02:33:09,839 --> 02:33:11,160
we want to use it,

4075
02:33:11,160 --> 02:33:12,989
we think aid you today.

4076
02:33:12,989 --> 02:33:14,940
We're willing to begin

4077
02:33:14,940 --> 02:33:17,355
where you wishes
to. For us.

4078
02:33:17,355 --> 02:33:19,530
The initial argument
is an argument

4079
02:33:19,530 --> 02:33:22,489
about the discussion
about what 36,

4080
02:33:22,489 --> 02:33:24,734
61 says about this.

4081
02:33:24,734 --> 02:33:26,610
Now, I'm not sure if
you do want to get into

4082
02:33:26,610 --> 02:33:27,899
that or you want to
focus your attention,

4083
02:33:27,899 --> 02:33:28,739
Let's leave it aside.

4084
02:33:28,739 --> 02:33:30,569
Let's just pretend for
the moment that we've

4085
02:33:30,569 --> 02:33:32,414
decided that we
can do this.

4086
02:33:32,414 --> 02:33:33,149
And then you want to tell

4087
02:33:33,149 --> 02:33:34,739
us why we shouldn't.

4088
02:33:34,739 --> 02:33:36,254
Fine.

4089
02:33:36,254 --> 02:33:38,129
The packet that
we provided you

4090
02:33:38,129 --> 02:33:39,855
last week talked about

4091
02:33:39,855 --> 02:33:41,160
the information about how

4092
02:33:41,160 --> 02:33:42,255
the rural land model

4093
02:33:42,255 --> 02:33:43,800
works in
Washington County.

4094
02:33:43,800 --> 02:33:45,284
And if you recall?

4095
02:33:45,284 --> 02:33:46,455
Sure. Yeah.

4096
02:33:46,455 --> 02:33:47,895
Are those extra package?

4097
02:33:47,895 --> 02:33:50,790
Yes. I did not bring
mine from last period.

4098
02:33:50,790 --> 02:33:52,499
Whoever doesn't
have it, gotta

4099
02:33:52,499 --> 02:33:54,300
get one that I'd love
to get another copy.

4100
02:33:54,300 --> 02:33:55,169
I don't know if
other people are

4101
02:33:55,169 --> 02:33:57,400
in the same circumstances.

4102
02:34:03,530 --> 02:34:05,950
Artwork.

4103
02:34:17,420 --> 02:34:20,204
The argument I
will make here,

4104
02:34:20,204 --> 02:34:21,810
I'll summarize
and then make it

4105
02:34:21,810 --> 02:34:23,879
briefly is that
rural land model

4106
02:34:23,879 --> 02:34:25,409
works if we have
to go back in

4107
02:34:25,409 --> 02:34:27,389
and replan rural
Washington County,

4108
02:34:27,389 --> 02:34:29,280
it will detract
from our ability to

4109
02:34:29,280 --> 02:34:31,139
do what everyone wants

4110
02:34:31,139 --> 02:34:33,344
us to do urban
planning work.

4111
02:34:33,344 --> 02:34:35,999
Attachment eight is called

4112
02:34:35,999 --> 02:34:37,875
Washington County
rural land chart.

4113
02:34:37,875 --> 02:34:40,350
It was a chart that
was provided when I

4114
02:34:40,350 --> 02:34:41,430
provide a testimony to

4115
02:34:41,430 --> 02:34:42,150
the Senate Ag and

4116
02:34:42,150 --> 02:34:43,695
Natural Resources
Committee.

4117
02:34:43,695 --> 02:34:44,999
If you could turn to that.

4118
02:34:44,999 --> 02:34:46,259
It's a real simple chart.

4119
02:34:46,259 --> 02:34:47,459
These things don't say

4120
02:34:47,459 --> 02:34:49,439
attachment, have
attachment numbers,

4121
02:34:49,439 --> 02:34:51,960
so you're going to have
to get us attachments

4122
02:34:51,960 --> 02:34:54,399
are identified, see?

4123
02:34:54,440 --> 02:34:56,219
Oh, it says in front

4124
02:34:56,219 --> 02:34:57,044
of it and I was
looking away.

4125
02:34:57,044 --> 02:34:57,749
I've always every time

4126
02:34:57,749 --> 02:34:58,410
you say attachment here,

4127
02:34:58,410 --> 02:35:00,404
I'm looking at
the chart, sorry.

4128
02:35:00,404 --> 02:35:02,490
Three-page attachment.

4129
02:35:02,490 --> 02:35:03,674
Okay.

4130
02:35:03,674 --> 02:35:05,520
And this is the
information that I

4131
02:35:05,520 --> 02:35:06,929
provided to the
Senate committee

4132
02:35:06,929 --> 02:35:09,675
when we were working
on legislation.

4133
02:35:09,675 --> 02:35:11,459
And what it looks at

4134
02:35:11,459 --> 02:35:15,270
is activities
in 1990, 1.92.

4135
02:35:15,270 --> 02:35:17,669
And what it will
show you is

4136
02:35:17,669 --> 02:35:19,199
activities are going on

4137
02:35:19,199 --> 02:35:21,030
first for
building permits.

4138
02:35:21,030 --> 02:35:24,000
That's the first chart
in the year 1992.

4139
02:35:24,000 --> 02:35:26,535
And it shows you all
the building permits

4140
02:35:26,535 --> 02:35:29,295
activity for the
entire rural area.

4141
02:35:29,295 --> 02:35:31,230
And I'd like you to
focus your attention

4142
02:35:31,230 --> 02:35:35,565
on the bottom
part, AFT and ESU.

4143
02:35:35,565 --> 02:35:39,164
Those are the ESU lands
in Washington County.

4144
02:35:39,164 --> 02:35:40,604
The third page back

4145
02:35:40,604 --> 02:35:42,150
shows you how many
acres that is,

4146
02:35:42,150 --> 02:35:43,619
but basically EF2 is about

4147
02:35:43,619 --> 02:35:45,989
100,000 acres and that's
the valley floor.

4148
02:35:45,989 --> 02:35:47,850
Aft is the foothills

4149
02:35:47,850 --> 02:35:49,109
and the southern
part of the county,

4150
02:35:49,109 --> 02:35:50,009
the western part
of the county

4151
02:35:50,009 --> 02:35:51,329
and the northern
part of county.

4152
02:35:51,329 --> 02:35:53,940
And that's about
40,000 acres.

4153
02:35:53,940 --> 02:35:59,639
So in 1992, we had a
total of 17 dwellings.

4154
02:35:59,639 --> 02:36:01,484
For reference, the EFC,

4155
02:36:01,484 --> 02:36:04,440
if C is the goal for
forest district.

4156
02:36:04,440 --> 02:36:06,299
So you can see
there are none

4157
02:36:06,299 --> 02:36:08,370
there in that year
building permits.

4158
02:36:08,370 --> 02:36:10,724
And so you can see that

4159
02:36:10,724 --> 02:36:13,049
a total of 17 dwellings
on a few grants,

4160
02:36:13,049 --> 02:36:14,099
and the majority of

4161
02:36:14,099 --> 02:36:15,915
those are in the
foot hill lands.

4162
02:36:15,915 --> 02:36:17,190
And that's on a total of

4163
02:36:17,190 --> 02:36:20,235
about 100.4050
thousand acres.

4164
02:36:20,235 --> 02:36:22,504
Actual dwellings permits

4165
02:36:22,504 --> 02:36:23,895
chart down at the bottom.

4166
02:36:23,895 --> 02:36:25,140
The next chart down it

4167
02:36:25,140 --> 02:36:26,594
looks at land
use approvals,

4168
02:36:26,594 --> 02:36:28,200
approvals that were

4169
02:36:28,200 --> 02:36:30,089
given in that
particular year,

4170
02:36:30,089 --> 02:36:31,709
land use actions, a

4171
02:36:31,709 --> 02:36:32,940
little bit different
calculation.

4172
02:36:32,940 --> 02:36:34,829
The first thing was
actual building permits.

4173
02:36:34,829 --> 02:36:37,409
And what we do in
that chart is compare

4174
02:36:37,409 --> 02:36:39,719
egg dwelling
approvals total for

4175
02:36:39,719 --> 02:36:41,369
the UNF 20 district to

4176
02:36:41,369 --> 02:36:42,419
all the building permits

4177
02:36:42,419 --> 02:36:43,439
and Washington County.

4178
02:36:43,439 --> 02:36:45,540
And you can see in 1991,

4179
02:36:45,540 --> 02:36:48,405
2,600 building
permits total.

4180
02:36:48,405 --> 02:36:50,355
14 were Ag dwellings.

4181
02:36:50,355 --> 02:36:52,530
A half a percent of
the total buildings

4182
02:36:52,530 --> 02:36:55,364
are formed dwelling
similarly for 1992,

4183
02:36:55,364 --> 02:36:57,780
a little bit higher
but less than 1%.

4184
02:36:57,780 --> 02:37:02,260
If you look, what accounts
for the increase.

4185
02:37:02,690 --> 02:37:04,740
Who knows?

4186
02:37:04,740 --> 02:37:06,270
More farmers wanting to

4187
02:37:06,270 --> 02:37:07,439
establish operations

4188
02:37:07,439 --> 02:37:09,344
in Washington
County, I imagine.

4189
02:37:09,344 --> 02:37:12,374
But it's really a
very small total.

4190
02:37:12,374 --> 02:37:15,059
If you look on the next,
the very next page,

4191
02:37:15,059 --> 02:37:17,295
it shows the distribution
for those years,

4192
02:37:17,295 --> 02:37:19,980
again, for land
use approvals.

4193
02:37:19,980 --> 02:37:21,600
The first one was for
building permits.

4194
02:37:21,600 --> 02:37:24,509
And you can see that
of the valley floor.

4195
02:37:24,509 --> 02:37:26,099
It's always the, the the

4196
02:37:26,099 --> 02:37:28,169
smaller number in
aggregate terms,

4197
02:37:28,169 --> 02:37:30,390
the valley floor has
less impact five

4198
02:37:30,390 --> 02:37:32,839
dwellings and 13
dwellings that the,

4199
02:37:32,839 --> 02:37:34,245
that small amount
of activity,

4200
02:37:34,245 --> 02:37:36,569
the majority is going
on in the foothills.

4201
02:37:36,569 --> 02:37:38,490
So our argument is

4202
02:37:38,490 --> 02:37:41,369
that in terms
of dwellings,

4203
02:37:41,369 --> 02:37:45,300
it's working pretty
well. Less than 1%.

4204
02:37:45,300 --> 02:37:46,350
Now, you might ask,

4205
02:37:46,350 --> 02:37:48,149
how is it working
for the rest of

4206
02:37:48,149 --> 02:37:50,055
the lands outside the
urban growth boundary,

4207
02:37:50,055 --> 02:37:51,810
not the ESU lands
where you can

4208
02:37:51,810 --> 02:37:55,349
see a little bit of the
information for 1992.

4209
02:37:55,349 --> 02:37:56,879
The numbers are
pretty small.

4210
02:37:56,879 --> 02:37:58,109
Your own DLC D, growth

4211
02:37:58,109 --> 02:37:59,939
management study for
those years found

4212
02:37:59,939 --> 02:38:01,830
that the urban
growth boundary

4213
02:38:01,830 --> 02:38:03,239
is working really well
in Washington County,

4214
02:38:03,239 --> 02:38:06,809
3% of building
permit activities

4215
02:38:06,809 --> 02:38:08,819
were outside the urban
growth boundary.

4216
02:38:08,819 --> 02:38:11,969
97% inside the urban
growth boundary.

4217
02:38:11,969 --> 02:38:14,310
The numbers show
successively

4218
02:38:14,310 --> 02:38:16,680
that of that small
number, the majority,

4219
02:38:16,680 --> 02:38:17,640
the vast majority on

4220
02:38:17,640 --> 02:38:20,145
exception lands
after that,

4221
02:38:20,145 --> 02:38:22,215
on AFT lands which
are in the foothills,

4222
02:38:22,215 --> 02:38:25,409
very few in on
farm ground.

4223
02:38:25,409 --> 02:38:27,539
Charts don't
show you this,

4224
02:38:27,539 --> 02:38:30,299
but I I I articulated
this for the record for

4225
02:38:30,299 --> 02:38:33,150
the committee
and I did it for

4226
02:38:33,150 --> 02:38:34,430
the commission last
time and I did

4227
02:38:34,430 --> 02:38:36,329
it a few minutes
ago again,

4228
02:38:36,329 --> 02:38:39,075
on the division side,
personalization side.

4229
02:38:39,075 --> 02:38:41,504
Since 1983.

4230
02:38:41,504 --> 02:38:44,490
This model of
land divisions is

4231
02:38:44,490 --> 02:38:48,449
produced zero knew lots
on the valley floor,

4232
02:38:48,449 --> 02:38:50,745
no land divisions on
the valley floor.

4233
02:38:50,745 --> 02:38:52,830
And five in the foothills

4234
02:38:52,830 --> 02:38:54,239
and the AFT district.

4235
02:38:54,239 --> 02:38:56,460
And so if your
measure of success of

4236
02:38:56,460 --> 02:38:57,810
a program in terms of

4237
02:38:57,810 --> 02:38:59,549
light divisions is less,

4238
02:38:59,549 --> 02:39:00,975
is better than more.

4239
02:39:00,975 --> 02:39:02,669
This doesn't
produce very many.

4240
02:39:02,669 --> 02:39:04,964
That's 11, that's
11 year period.

4241
02:39:04,964 --> 02:39:11,520
Since 198035 total lots
of those lots all in,

4242
02:39:11,520 --> 02:39:12,900
all way up in the

4243
02:39:12,900 --> 02:39:14,520
foothills of
channel Mountains.

4244
02:39:14,520 --> 02:39:16,110
Now, the new piece of

4245
02:39:16,110 --> 02:39:17,460
information I
provided you deals

4246
02:39:17,460 --> 02:39:19,919
with all those other
uses that could

4247
02:39:19,919 --> 02:39:23,234
occur under 215
to 13 zones.

4248
02:39:23,234 --> 02:39:25,380
And I'll just really
quickly go through them.

4249
02:39:25,380 --> 02:39:26,460
You can read them
for yourself

4250
02:39:26,460 --> 02:39:30,014
too. You just got done.

4251
02:39:30,014 --> 02:39:31,320
As a matter of policy,

4252
02:39:31,320 --> 02:39:33,479
talking about these
for the 283 counties,

4253
02:39:33,479 --> 02:39:35,279
but first churches,
none since

4254
02:39:35,279 --> 02:39:37,725
19 1983 cemeteries, none.

4255
02:39:37,725 --> 02:39:39,870
Private campgrounds,
non dog kennels,

4256
02:39:39,870 --> 02:39:42,224
non candling, none.

4257
02:39:42,224 --> 02:39:44,369
Destination resorts
doesn't even apply tests

4258
02:39:44,369 --> 02:39:47,055
were precluded from
doing that. Schools.

4259
02:39:47,055 --> 02:39:48,224
None.

4260
02:39:48,224 --> 02:39:50,520
Curiosity. Why are you
precluded from doing

4261
02:39:50,520 --> 02:39:53,489
destination resorts
is at a lower margin.

4262
02:39:53,489 --> 02:39:56,834
50 air miles or 20 mi.

4263
02:39:56,834 --> 02:39:58,030
A major penalty.

4264
02:39:58,030 --> 02:39:59,309
You'd have to take
an exception.

4265
02:39:59,309 --> 02:40:00,854
Right? We don't
we don't have any

4266
02:40:00,854 --> 02:40:03,195
known as ever
been attempted.

4267
02:40:03,195 --> 02:40:04,920
Private parks?

4268
02:40:04,920 --> 02:40:07,754
None. We had an
application.

4269
02:40:07,754 --> 02:40:09,660
No one carried through
with the application

4270
02:40:09,660 --> 02:40:11,025
of applications.

4271
02:40:11,025 --> 02:40:13,470
Expired. Landfills. We had

4272
02:40:13,470 --> 02:40:15,870
an existing landfill
been out there very,

4273
02:40:15,870 --> 02:40:17,339
very long time and
expanded once.

4274
02:40:17,339 --> 02:40:18,389
It's the only one.

4275
02:40:18,389 --> 02:40:21,330
A lot of record
non-farm dwellings,

4276
02:40:21,330 --> 02:40:23,670
none golf courses.

4277
02:40:23,670 --> 02:40:25,500
And so to this point here,

4278
02:40:25,500 --> 02:40:27,390
these are
basically nothing

4279
02:40:27,390 --> 02:40:29,529
has happened since 1983.

4280
02:40:29,529 --> 02:40:30,965
In terms of the record,

4281
02:40:30,965 --> 02:40:32,390
golf courses is
the place where

4282
02:40:32,390 --> 02:40:34,550
you might cost
you some concern.

4283
02:40:34,550 --> 02:40:36,770
Several years ago, four
or five years ago,

4284
02:40:36,770 --> 02:40:38,449
I guess now we had a spate

4285
02:40:38,449 --> 02:40:40,204
of applications
for golf courses.

4286
02:40:40,204 --> 02:40:43,580
Actually. Five
applications.

4287
02:40:43,580 --> 02:40:44,900
One was for the expansion

4288
02:40:44,900 --> 02:40:46,160
of existing golf
course and it was

4289
02:40:46,160 --> 02:40:48,500
approved for applications

4290
02:40:48,500 --> 02:40:50,840
for new golf courses.

4291
02:40:50,840 --> 02:40:53,150
And what happened to

4292
02:40:53,150 --> 02:40:56,104
those was that
two are approved.

4293
02:40:56,104 --> 02:40:58,540
One, all of them
went through very,

4294
02:40:58,540 --> 02:41:00,635
very elaborate
analysis and

4295
02:41:00,635 --> 02:41:01,430
I'll talk a
little bit about

4296
02:41:01,430 --> 02:41:03,020
the criteria in a
minute quickly.

4297
02:41:03,020 --> 02:41:05,300
But 11 got approved

4298
02:41:05,300 --> 02:41:07,399
and basically was
reviewed very

4299
02:41:07,399 --> 02:41:09,290
closely by all the
parties interested in

4300
02:41:09,290 --> 02:41:10,370
rural land use issues in

4301
02:41:10,370 --> 02:41:12,349
Washington County
and then contested.

4302
02:41:12,349 --> 02:41:15,499
Another one was approved
and two are denied.

4303
02:41:15,499 --> 02:41:16,849
We've had a number of

4304
02:41:16,849 --> 02:41:19,370
Luba actions in regards
to golf courses.

4305
02:41:19,370 --> 02:41:21,845
As a practical matter.

4306
02:41:21,845 --> 02:41:23,990
Our conclusion about
golf courses in

4307
02:41:23,990 --> 02:41:26,224
Washington County is
that golf courses,

4308
02:41:26,224 --> 02:41:27,499
the golf course
applications

4309
02:41:27,499 --> 02:41:28,339
I just talked about,

4310
02:41:28,339 --> 02:41:30,259
we're a phenomenon
associated

4311
02:41:30,259 --> 02:41:31,310
with an availability of

4312
02:41:31,310 --> 02:41:35,239
funds to invest in those
kinds of activities.

4313
02:41:35,239 --> 02:41:39,679
There's a lot of
oriental funds coming

4314
02:41:39,679 --> 02:41:42,829
in to support not
just applications

4315
02:41:42,829 --> 02:41:44,359
for golf courses in
Washington County,

4316
02:41:44,359 --> 02:41:46,490
but throughout
the northwest

4317
02:41:46,490 --> 02:41:48,350
and even California,

4318
02:41:48,350 --> 02:41:49,820
the Japanese money has

4319
02:41:49,820 --> 02:41:50,689
dried up and we haven't

4320
02:41:50,689 --> 02:41:52,940
seen any applications
come forward.

4321
02:41:52,940 --> 02:41:53,840
And in fact, some of

4322
02:41:53,840 --> 02:41:56,279
the approvals
granted after

4323
02:41:56,279 --> 02:41:59,220
much analysis and
some litigation

4324
02:41:59,220 --> 02:41:59,879
haven't even gone

4325
02:41:59,879 --> 02:42:01,829
through to
construction either.

4326
02:42:01,829 --> 02:42:04,740
That the very next
page shows you

4327
02:42:04,740 --> 02:42:06,209
the standards
that are applied

4328
02:42:06,209 --> 02:42:07,710
to all of these uses.

4329
02:42:07,710 --> 02:42:09,599
These are all public

4330
02:42:09,599 --> 02:42:11,219
hearing items in
the first set of

4331
02:42:11,219 --> 02:42:12,449
standards at the
top of the page or

4332
02:42:12,449 --> 02:42:13,860
the IRS standards that

4333
02:42:13,860 --> 02:42:15,210
are right from the law.

4334
02:42:15,210 --> 02:42:16,919
And you can see the 215 to

4335
02:42:16,919 --> 02:42:19,094
96 so-called conditional
use standards.

4336
02:42:19,094 --> 02:42:21,000
The standards at the
bottom of the page,

4337
02:42:21,000 --> 02:42:23,220
or additional Washington
County standards

4338
02:42:23,220 --> 02:42:24,840
that are applied
to these uses.

4339
02:42:24,840 --> 02:42:26,369
So we're not just stopping

4340
02:42:26,369 --> 02:42:27,810
with the conditional use

4341
02:42:27,810 --> 02:42:28,889
standards that come from

4342
02:42:28,889 --> 02:42:30,239
the law which we believe

4343
02:42:30,239 --> 02:42:33,270
are really rigorous
in themselves,

4344
02:42:33,270 --> 02:42:33,629
but we have

4345
02:42:33,629 --> 02:42:36,705
additional flight
requirements as well.

4346
02:42:36,705 --> 02:42:38,369
Conclusion that we draw

4347
02:42:38,369 --> 02:42:39,360
from this that
we'd like you to

4348
02:42:39,360 --> 02:42:41,880
draw is that on
the dwelling side,

4349
02:42:41,880 --> 02:42:43,424
very, very low activity.

4350
02:42:43,424 --> 02:42:44,850
On the
personalization side,

4351
02:42:44,850 --> 02:42:46,350
no activity and on

4352
02:42:46,350 --> 02:42:49,154
the other so-called
uses, no activity.

4353
02:42:49,154 --> 02:42:51,105
This system works for us.

4354
02:42:51,105 --> 02:42:53,400
We think that if
you allow us to

4355
02:42:53,400 --> 02:42:55,320
continue to have
the system,

4356
02:42:55,320 --> 02:42:57,390
you can expect the same
kind of results in

4357
02:42:57,390 --> 02:42:59,490
the future by not

4358
02:42:59,490 --> 02:43:01,439
by allowing the system
to stand in place.

4359
02:43:01,439 --> 02:43:02,549
I turned to the
second half of

4360
02:43:02,549 --> 02:43:03,719
the argument and that is,

4361
02:43:03,719 --> 02:43:04,889
it allows us to turn

4362
02:43:04,889 --> 02:43:06,945
our attention to urban
planning issues.

4363
02:43:06,945 --> 02:43:08,790
Washington County
is a little bit

4364
02:43:08,790 --> 02:43:11,834
different than
the majority of

4365
02:43:11,834 --> 02:43:14,939
the Valley counties
in that we have

4366
02:43:14,939 --> 02:43:16,409
a very substantial

4367
02:43:16,409 --> 02:43:18,934
urban planning
responsibility.

4368
02:43:18,934 --> 02:43:21,959
Lion's share of vacant,

4369
02:43:21,959 --> 02:43:22,994
developable land

4370
02:43:22,994 --> 02:43:24,884
inside the urban
growth boundary

4371
02:43:24,884 --> 02:43:26,189
for the Portland
metropolitan areas

4372
02:43:26,189 --> 02:43:27,224
in Washington County,

4373
02:43:27,224 --> 02:43:29,879
and the majority of
that is unincorporated.

4374
02:43:29,879 --> 02:43:31,979
We take that planning
responsibility very

4375
02:43:31,979 --> 02:43:33,959
seriously at the last

4376
02:43:33,959 --> 02:43:35,999
in this packet, the
last attachment,

4377
02:43:35,999 --> 02:43:37,380
the very last
piece of paper as

4378
02:43:37,380 --> 02:43:39,825
a pullout that shows
our work program

4379
02:43:39,825 --> 02:43:41,609
for the remainder of

4380
02:43:41,609 --> 02:43:42,720
this fiscal
year and all of

4381
02:43:42,720 --> 02:43:44,600
the next fiscal
year and projects,

4382
02:43:44,600 --> 02:43:46,379
couple more
fiscal years out.

4383
02:43:46,379 --> 02:43:47,879
And what you'll
find on this

4384
02:43:47,879 --> 02:43:49,170
as it's replete with

4385
02:43:49,170 --> 02:43:50,550
urban planning
activities that

4386
02:43:50,550 --> 02:43:52,514
emanate from the state
planning program,

4387
02:43:52,514 --> 02:43:54,449
transportation
planning room, school

4388
02:43:54,449 --> 02:43:57,194
facility planning
rules, Senate Bill 122,

4389
02:43:57,194 --> 02:43:58,934
coordination agreements,

4390
02:43:58,934 --> 02:44:01,704
region 2040, urban
growth studies,

4391
02:44:01,704 --> 02:44:04,914
transportation
planning to go work at

4392
02:44:04,914 --> 02:44:06,260
a stationary planning work

4393
02:44:06,260 --> 02:44:08,164
associated with a
light rail investment,

4394
02:44:08,164 --> 02:44:09,695
coordination with

4395
02:44:09,695 --> 02:44:11,600
Washington county
governments to undertake

4396
02:44:11,600 --> 02:44:13,369
these activities as well
as coordination with

4397
02:44:13,369 --> 02:44:15,245
the regional and
state government.

4398
02:44:15,245 --> 02:44:17,300
We've also included
the board has

4399
02:44:17,300 --> 02:44:19,640
taken cognizant of your
own work program and

4400
02:44:19,640 --> 02:44:21,350
on rulemaking and provided

4401
02:44:21,350 --> 02:44:22,820
the resources
and direction

4402
02:44:22,820 --> 02:44:24,500
to undertake that as well.

4403
02:44:24,500 --> 02:44:27,469
If we are required to

4404
02:44:27,469 --> 02:44:30,425
go back for to do
real planning,

4405
02:44:30,425 --> 02:44:32,840
our resources and
our attention.

4406
02:44:32,840 --> 02:44:34,940
And the community's
attention

4407
02:44:34,940 --> 02:44:36,199
will be diverted
from doing

4408
02:44:36,199 --> 02:44:37,760
these urban activities and

4409
02:44:37,760 --> 02:44:39,470
consumed with the
rural activities.

4410
02:44:39,470 --> 02:44:41,165
And we think to know

4411
02:44:41,165 --> 02:44:42,964
material gain in the end.

4412
02:44:42,964 --> 02:44:45,810
So that's, That's the
policy in terms of

4413
02:44:45,810 --> 02:44:48,869
the planning that we
wish to perceive.

4414
02:44:48,869 --> 02:44:50,864
One very last comment,

4415
02:44:50,864 --> 02:44:53,850
there has been some
suggestion that taking

4416
02:44:53,850 --> 02:44:55,859
the new 36 61
requirements for

4417
02:44:55,859 --> 02:44:58,349
high-value is a
very simple task

4418
02:44:58,349 --> 02:45:00,075
to take and adopt locally.

4419
02:45:00,075 --> 02:45:03,195
And I, having been

4420
02:45:03,195 --> 02:45:05,490
the recipient of the
state planning program

4421
02:45:05,490 --> 02:45:06,735
and having to
take it locally,

4422
02:45:06,735 --> 02:45:07,950
I have a good deal of

4423
02:45:07,950 --> 02:45:09,899
experience on
the urban side

4424
02:45:09,899 --> 02:45:11,520
and the rural side
about what it takes

4425
02:45:11,520 --> 02:45:13,319
to do this in
my estimation,

4426
02:45:13,319 --> 02:45:14,220
is that you don't

4427
02:45:14,220 --> 02:45:15,704
simply tweak
your Ordinance.

4428
02:45:15,704 --> 02:45:17,070
This is a very
major planning

4429
02:45:17,070 --> 02:45:18,420
activity that you

4430
02:45:18,420 --> 02:45:20,039
engage the public
and there'll

4431
02:45:20,039 --> 02:45:22,124
be a lot of technical
work to do.

4432
02:45:22,124 --> 02:45:23,535
A lot of work
with the public,

4433
02:45:23,535 --> 02:45:24,869
a lot of difficult policy

4434
02:45:24,869 --> 02:45:26,220
calls at the margin.

4435
02:45:26,220 --> 02:45:28,380
And it will devote,

4436
02:45:28,380 --> 02:45:29,610
it will require a lot of

4437
02:45:29,610 --> 02:45:31,485
our attention to
undertake the program.

4438
02:45:31,485 --> 02:45:34,769
It's not just simply a
self-executing bill.

4439
02:45:34,769 --> 02:45:38,370
So that's our position on,

4440
02:45:38,370 --> 02:45:39,870
on the importance of

4441
02:45:39,870 --> 02:45:41,639
keeping the existing
model because

4442
02:45:41,639 --> 02:45:42,840
it works in
allowing us to do

4443
02:45:42,840 --> 02:45:43,860
urban planning from

4444
02:45:43,860 --> 02:45:45,539
Washington Counties
point of view.

4445
02:45:45,539 --> 02:45:47,669
Maybe I should
let Roy speak for

4446
02:45:47,669 --> 02:45:49,739
Lane County before we
get to Lane County,

4447
02:45:49,739 --> 02:45:51,840
Can I ask a
follow-up question

4448
02:45:51,840 --> 02:45:53,850
to his final
comments there?

4449
02:45:53,850 --> 02:45:56,219
It seems like the
primary argument

4450
02:45:56,219 --> 02:45:58,500
is that you have a
tremendous amount of

4451
02:45:58,500 --> 02:46:00,389
urban planning
responsibilities and you

4452
02:46:00,389 --> 02:46:02,489
don't want to divert from

4453
02:46:02,489 --> 02:46:04,409
that responsibility
by taking on

4454
02:46:04,409 --> 02:46:07,094
a role obligation that

4455
02:46:07,094 --> 02:46:08,280
would take a lot of time.

4456
02:46:08,280 --> 02:46:10,379
Could you take it
the next step in

4457
02:46:10,379 --> 02:46:12,509
describing a little more

4458
02:46:12,509 --> 02:46:14,040
specifically
about what you

4459
02:46:14,040 --> 02:46:15,569
think the task
would be for

4460
02:46:15,569 --> 02:46:17,220
Washington County to

4461
02:46:17,220 --> 02:46:19,800
implement high-value
farmland?

4462
02:46:19,800 --> 02:46:21,839
How much time what

4463
02:46:21,839 --> 02:46:23,730
would you have
to displace?

4464
02:46:23,730 --> 02:46:25,649
I'd like a little
more concrete

4465
02:46:25,649 --> 02:46:27,149
understanding of what

4466
02:46:27,149 --> 02:46:29,159
the implementation
would be like in

4467
02:46:29,159 --> 02:46:30,389
Washington County
and what kind

4468
02:46:30,389 --> 02:46:32,235
of resources that require.

4469
02:46:32,235 --> 02:46:33,449
Sure. I'd I'd be happy

4470
02:46:33,449 --> 02:46:34,889
to have several
components,

4471
02:46:34,889 --> 02:46:35,984
but let me start, start

4472
02:46:35,984 --> 02:46:38,400
about talking about
the planning activity.

4473
02:46:38,400 --> 02:46:40,049
And now I want to come
back and talk about

4474
02:46:40,049 --> 02:46:42,074
the impact on current
development and

4475
02:46:42,074 --> 02:46:44,099
responding to
citizens questions

4476
02:46:44,099 --> 02:46:46,545
about this on the
planning activity,

4477
02:46:46,545 --> 02:46:48,719
it is a bit

4478
02:46:48,719 --> 02:46:49,980
of illusion, at
least on our port,

4479
02:46:49,980 --> 02:46:52,169
that this is a self-executing
thing that just

4480
02:46:52,169 --> 02:46:53,400
simply requires
citizens to

4481
02:46:53,400 --> 02:46:55,439
walk forward
with soils maps.

4482
02:46:55,439 --> 02:46:57,509
Citizens are gonna
be very concerned

4483
02:46:57,509 --> 02:46:59,100
with the rules that
govern how they

4484
02:46:59,100 --> 02:47:00,630
get building permits
or undertake

4485
02:47:00,630 --> 02:47:03,090
particular activities
or lot divisions.

4486
02:47:03,090 --> 02:47:05,849
And so generally
they're going to ask

4487
02:47:05,849 --> 02:47:06,960
questions about whether

4488
02:47:06,960 --> 02:47:08,670
the threshold criteria,

4489
02:47:08,670 --> 02:47:11,129
that is the soil's
really do apply to them.

4490
02:47:11,129 --> 02:47:13,679
And shouldn't we, as
a matter of equity,

4491
02:47:13,679 --> 02:47:16,380
determine that
prior to requiring

4492
02:47:16,380 --> 02:47:18,000
new regulations
be applied to

4493
02:47:18,000 --> 02:47:20,024
them and them having
to prove out of it.

4494
02:47:20,024 --> 02:47:21,720
So the consequences that

4495
02:47:21,720 --> 02:47:22,500
we're going to have to

4496
02:47:22,500 --> 02:47:25,275
determine where the
high-value soils are.

4497
02:47:25,275 --> 02:47:26,400
We're going to
have to do all

4498
02:47:26,400 --> 02:47:30,180
that accumulated,
all that data.

4499
02:47:30,180 --> 02:47:31,949
We're gonna have
a GIS system.

4500
02:47:31,949 --> 02:47:32,909
We're lucky to have that.

4501
02:47:32,909 --> 02:47:34,559
That'll be a savings

4502
02:47:34,559 --> 02:47:35,970
to us in terms
of the time,

4503
02:47:35,970 --> 02:47:37,949
but we're going to have
to digitize all that.

4504
02:47:37,949 --> 02:47:39,704
And what we're
going to find is

4505
02:47:39,704 --> 02:47:41,729
that we're going
to have to apply

4506
02:47:41,729 --> 02:47:42,329
it to the ground

4507
02:47:42,329 --> 02:47:42,989
and we're going
to have to make

4508
02:47:42,989 --> 02:47:44,250
some judgment calls
because you're

4509
02:47:44,250 --> 02:47:45,570
going to have to make
some determinations

4510
02:47:45,570 --> 02:47:47,370
about predominantly
high-value.

4511
02:47:47,370 --> 02:47:49,320
There'll be a series
of questions at

4512
02:47:49,320 --> 02:47:52,080
the margin that we'll
have to work out.

4513
02:47:52,080 --> 02:47:53,760
Those questions at
the margin will

4514
02:47:53,760 --> 02:47:55,949
involve a very
interested public,

4515
02:47:55,949 --> 02:47:59,160
and it will require us
showing them the maps,

4516
02:47:59,160 --> 02:48:02,220
setting some mapping rules

4517
02:48:02,220 --> 02:48:03,870
about how we make
recommendations,

4518
02:48:03,870 --> 02:48:05,235
working with the
public about

4519
02:48:05,235 --> 02:48:06,780
how those calls are made.

4520
02:48:06,780 --> 02:48:08,250
We estimate
that that would

4521
02:48:08,250 --> 02:48:10,169
be to do the
technical work,

4522
02:48:10,169 --> 02:48:12,420
the soils map work
would be at least at

4523
02:48:12,420 --> 02:48:14,910
minimum one person
for six months to

4524
02:48:14,910 --> 02:48:16,410
get the maps together and

4525
02:48:16,410 --> 02:48:18,539
begin to do to
make the judgments

4526
02:48:18,539 --> 02:48:19,860
about how they fall on

4527
02:48:19,860 --> 02:48:22,380
lot lines to prepare
us to go out.

4528
02:48:22,380 --> 02:48:23,760
We we believe that

4529
02:48:23,760 --> 02:48:25,470
going out to the
public would require

4530
02:48:25,470 --> 02:48:26,970
us to have a number
of public meetings

4531
02:48:26,970 --> 02:48:28,629
to first explain 36,

4532
02:48:28,629 --> 02:48:31,244
61, daunting
task in itself,

4533
02:48:31,244 --> 02:48:32,730
but then talk
about how it would

4534
02:48:32,730 --> 02:48:34,410
be applied to
Washington County.

4535
02:48:34,410 --> 02:48:37,019
Before we got to how
it would be how you

4536
02:48:37,019 --> 02:48:40,260
actually do the soils
in Washington County.

4537
02:48:40,260 --> 02:48:42,449
After you identify
who it applies to,

4538
02:48:42,449 --> 02:48:44,385
you then have
to go back and

4539
02:48:44,385 --> 02:48:46,635
determine what the
new rules would be.

4540
02:48:46,635 --> 02:48:49,739
And It's our contention

4541
02:48:49,739 --> 02:48:53,189
that were required to
implement to 15 to 13.

4542
02:48:53,189 --> 02:48:54,419
So we'd have a high-value

4543
02:48:54,419 --> 02:48:56,009
rules on top of that.

4544
02:48:56,009 --> 02:48:58,619
There are a lot of
policy questions,

4545
02:48:58,619 --> 02:48:59,700
legal questions about how

4546
02:48:59,700 --> 02:49:01,185
the two of those mesh.

4547
02:49:01,185 --> 02:49:02,715
We have to sort those out.

4548
02:49:02,715 --> 02:49:04,020
Then we'd have to
convert those into

4549
02:49:04,020 --> 02:49:05,320
code language that

4550
02:49:05,320 --> 02:49:07,230
the actual regulations
zoning language,

4551
02:49:07,230 --> 02:49:08,400
and we'd have to
explain those to

4552
02:49:08,400 --> 02:49:09,990
the public and go

4553
02:49:09,990 --> 02:49:11,564
through the
hearings process.

4554
02:49:11,564 --> 02:49:13,230
Going through the
hearings process

4555
02:49:13,230 --> 02:49:14,159
would be two steps,

4556
02:49:14,159 --> 02:49:15,210
planning, commission
and board,

4557
02:49:15,210 --> 02:49:16,124
typical kind of thing.

4558
02:49:16,124 --> 02:49:18,449
But knowing the kind

4559
02:49:18,449 --> 02:49:19,755
of issues that
will be extinct,

4560
02:49:19,755 --> 02:49:22,349
I can say to you
that it would demand

4561
02:49:22,349 --> 02:49:23,400
a substantial amount of

4562
02:49:23,400 --> 02:49:24,644
the planet
commissions time

4563
02:49:24,644 --> 02:49:26,324
and the board's
time to do that.

4564
02:49:26,324 --> 02:49:29,039
That would all get
you to an adoption.

4565
02:49:29,039 --> 02:49:31,874
Sure. As anything
upon adoption

4566
02:49:31,874 --> 02:49:34,139
will have litigation
and litigation again,

4567
02:49:34,139 --> 02:49:35,489
we'll take the
county's resources

4568
02:49:35,489 --> 02:49:38,429
to go to luminance
and participate.

4569
02:49:38,429 --> 02:49:40,290
So that's the whole
planning exercise.

4570
02:49:40,290 --> 02:49:43,079
And that's, that's at
least a year's worth

4571
02:49:43,079 --> 02:49:44,715
of activity because
of our charter.

4572
02:49:44,715 --> 02:49:45,990
If we started today,

4573
02:49:45,990 --> 02:49:48,210
we couldn't get done
by the end of 94.

4574
02:49:48,210 --> 02:49:49,710
We'd be intend
to next year

4575
02:49:49,710 --> 02:49:51,495
devoting her
attention to this.

4576
02:49:51,495 --> 02:49:53,309
The other side
is what you tell

4577
02:49:53,309 --> 02:49:54,870
the public
right-of-way today

4578
02:49:54,870 --> 02:49:56,130
before you actually put

4579
02:49:56,130 --> 02:49:58,185
the new system in place,

4580
02:49:58,185 --> 02:50:00,840
we already have people
call us and stream

4581
02:50:00,840 --> 02:50:03,620
into the office
asking about 36,

4582
02:50:03,620 --> 02:50:05,775
61 and asking you
about your rulemaking.

4583
02:50:05,775 --> 02:50:08,220
And we're obliged
to talk to them

4584
02:50:08,220 --> 02:50:09,539
about it and talk to them

4585
02:50:09,539 --> 02:50:11,249
about the impact
that will continue.

4586
02:50:11,249 --> 02:50:13,349
In fact, that will
increase as well.

4587
02:50:13,349 --> 02:50:14,789
We have a whole
category of folks

4588
02:50:14,789 --> 02:50:16,559
that have applications
in place,

4589
02:50:16,559 --> 02:50:19,049
are contemplating
applications that may

4590
02:50:19,049 --> 02:50:20,279
come in before we get

4591
02:50:20,279 --> 02:50:22,140
all this new work adopted.

4592
02:50:22,140 --> 02:50:23,789
And we'll have to
ask the question,

4593
02:50:23,789 --> 02:50:25,560
how did the new
rules apply to that?

4594
02:50:25,560 --> 02:50:27,750
There'll be a lot of
uncertainty about that.

4595
02:50:27,750 --> 02:50:29,399
A lot of work on the
land development staff

4596
02:50:29,399 --> 02:50:31,259
to sort that out and

4597
02:50:31,259 --> 02:50:33,420
probably some litigation
associated with

4598
02:50:33,420 --> 02:50:35,790
that against takes
county resources.

4599
02:50:35,790 --> 02:50:37,530
So it's it's a it's

4600
02:50:37,530 --> 02:50:39,930
a pretty large task
for us to undertake,

4601
02:50:39,930 --> 02:50:43,020
to go back out and
basically re-plan.

4602
02:50:43,020 --> 02:50:44,579
New rules for rural

4603
02:50:44,579 --> 02:50:48,269
Washington County
ESU AFT lands.

4604
02:50:48,269 --> 02:50:51,360
One confusion I
had as a lot of

4605
02:50:51,360 --> 02:50:54,149
applications for
things where

4606
02:50:54,149 --> 02:50:57,225
you've had basically
no activity.

4607
02:50:57,225 --> 02:51:01,094
We have people that
have lots of interests.

4608
02:51:01,094 --> 02:51:02,865
We don't have a lot
of applications.

4609
02:51:02,865 --> 02:51:03,540
I mean, you can see

4610
02:51:03,540 --> 02:51:06,014
the results of
what goes on here.

4611
02:51:06,014 --> 02:51:09,239
You have you can verify
this by looking at

4612
02:51:09,239 --> 02:51:11,669
your farm reports are
that we give you,

4613
02:51:11,669 --> 02:51:13,859
but people do have a
high level of interests

4614
02:51:13,859 --> 02:51:15,104
and what the rules are

4615
02:51:15,104 --> 02:51:16,364
and how they
apply to them.

4616
02:51:16,364 --> 02:51:18,569
And I can tell you

4617
02:51:18,569 --> 02:51:22,755
that as a result of
your 1992 rulemaking,

4618
02:51:22,755 --> 02:51:24,270
we did have people came

4619
02:51:24,270 --> 02:51:27,074
forward that wouldn't
have otherwise.

4620
02:51:27,074 --> 02:51:30,374
And so it might
heighten applications.

4621
02:51:30,374 --> 02:51:32,534
We have existing
people in the system.

4622
02:51:32,534 --> 02:51:35,115
And rural land matters

4623
02:51:35,115 --> 02:51:36,779
are fairly complicated,

4624
02:51:36,779 --> 02:51:39,075
as I'm sure you
understand very well.

4625
02:51:39,075 --> 02:51:40,799
We can show you a
couple of staff

4626
02:51:40,799 --> 02:51:42,570
reports that we've
had here today

4627
02:51:42,570 --> 02:51:43,620
to give you an example of

4628
02:51:43,620 --> 02:51:45,660
just the depth
that we get into.

4629
02:51:45,660 --> 02:51:46,950
So even a small number of

4630
02:51:46,950 --> 02:51:50,400
applications is already
difficult to look at.

4631
02:51:50,400 --> 02:51:52,349
And if you add some
more complications

4632
02:51:52,349 --> 02:51:54,640
into it, it becomes
more difficult.

4633
02:51:57,710 --> 02:52:00,764
Chairman Hayes
prompts me with

4634
02:52:00,764 --> 02:52:03,345
she asked me this morning.

4635
02:52:03,345 --> 02:52:05,759
Well, you need to
be prepared to talk

4636
02:52:05,759 --> 02:52:07,919
about what would
drop off the plate,

4637
02:52:07,919 --> 02:52:09,270
the work program plate if,

4638
02:52:09,270 --> 02:52:11,189
if we had to do
this real world

4639
02:52:11,189 --> 02:52:15,014
and that's not the
kind of thing i'd,

4640
02:52:15,014 --> 02:52:16,169
I'd wish to contemplate.

4641
02:52:16,169 --> 02:52:17,534
I've been hoping
to prevail

4642
02:52:17,534 --> 02:52:19,170
on the policy issue
in front of you.

4643
02:52:19,170 --> 02:52:21,929
However, I did
speculate that it would

4644
02:52:21,929 --> 02:52:24,930
be things like
Senate Bill 122,

4645
02:52:24,930 --> 02:52:26,460
which is the piece of

4646
02:52:26,460 --> 02:52:28,200
work that the department
it came out of

4647
02:52:28,200 --> 02:52:30,810
the departments urban
growth program that

4648
02:52:30,810 --> 02:52:32,309
went to the legislature

4649
02:52:32,309 --> 02:52:33,689
that we worked
on together,

4650
02:52:33,689 --> 02:52:36,015
which deals with
coordination.

4651
02:52:36,015 --> 02:52:37,679
Where beginning
that, we have

4652
02:52:37,679 --> 02:52:38,700
the cities of Washington

4653
02:52:38,700 --> 02:52:39,810
County and especially
districts of

4654
02:52:39,810 --> 02:52:41,249
Washington county
and the county

4655
02:52:41,249 --> 02:52:43,349
itself very excited
about doing that work.

4656
02:52:43,349 --> 02:52:45,195
The time is right
to do that work.

4657
02:52:45,195 --> 02:52:47,970
We're afraid because if

4658
02:52:47,970 --> 02:52:49,605
we had to do this
work immediately,

4659
02:52:49,605 --> 02:52:51,419
that the magnitude of the

4660
02:52:51,419 --> 02:52:53,325
one-twenty to work
would be put off

4661
02:52:53,325 --> 02:52:54,795
because we have much

4662
02:52:54,795 --> 02:52:56,010
longer to actually

4663
02:52:56,010 --> 02:52:57,329
fulfill that
responsibility.

4664
02:52:57,329 --> 02:52:59,249
So that's an
important thing

4665
02:52:59,249 --> 02:53:01,604
that we need to let
you know as well.

4666
02:53:01,604 --> 02:53:03,510
I don't think we
could do justice as

4667
02:53:03,510 --> 02:53:03,779
some of

4668
02:53:03,779 --> 02:53:05,160
the transportation
planning issues that

4669
02:53:05,160 --> 02:53:06,660
we're working on that we'd

4670
02:53:06,660 --> 02:53:09,489
been before you on
before as well.

4671
02:53:09,710 --> 02:53:11,954
Right?

4672
02:53:11,954 --> 02:53:14,774
Just one question.

4673
02:53:14,774 --> 02:53:17,580
Why Washington
County originally

4674
02:53:17,580 --> 02:53:20,624
choose to go the
marginal answer out?

4675
02:53:20,624 --> 02:53:22,530
This is a very
long story that'll

4676
02:53:22,530 --> 02:53:24,044
make very, very short.

4677
02:53:24,044 --> 02:53:25,710
And 73, the County

4678
02:53:25,710 --> 02:53:29,774
adopted a framework
plan that use

4679
02:53:29,774 --> 02:53:31,559
broad comprehensive
framework plan

4680
02:53:31,559 --> 02:53:32,669
designation is a whole lot

4681
02:53:32,669 --> 02:53:35,520
like we have today

4682
02:53:35,520 --> 02:53:36,809
in the Oregon
planning system.

4683
02:53:36,809 --> 02:53:38,130
We had an urban growth
boundary and we

4684
02:53:38,130 --> 02:53:39,839
had the equivalent of

4685
02:53:39,839 --> 02:53:41,594
exception areas and
the equivalent of

4686
02:53:41,594 --> 02:53:42,930
exclusive forest lands

4687
02:53:42,930 --> 02:53:45,074
and exclusive farmlands.

4688
02:53:45,074 --> 02:53:48,480
So we had exception
areas before.

4689
02:53:48,480 --> 02:53:50,219
We had to justify
exception areas

4690
02:53:50,219 --> 02:53:52,125
as a matter of
local prerogative.

4691
02:53:52,125 --> 02:53:55,290
We spent a
number of years,

4692
02:53:55,290 --> 02:53:57,270
number of
sessions in front

4693
02:53:57,270 --> 02:53:59,310
of the previous
commissions fighting about

4694
02:53:59,310 --> 02:54:01,530
exception areas in
the county trying to

4695
02:54:01,530 --> 02:54:04,019
justify its 73 decision.

4696
02:54:04,019 --> 02:54:05,760
We never could
fully justify

4697
02:54:05,760 --> 02:54:09,014
the 73 decision. We are.

4698
02:54:09,014 --> 02:54:10,739
It was a popular issue

4699
02:54:10,739 --> 02:54:11,820
in Washington
County in which you

4700
02:54:11,820 --> 02:54:14,729
had an initiative
exception

4701
02:54:14,729 --> 02:54:16,620
taken to justify it.

4702
02:54:16,620 --> 02:54:18,630
And the commission
quash that.

4703
02:54:18,630 --> 02:54:20,069
We had this dilemma in

4704
02:54:20,069 --> 02:54:21,809
dilemma was sorted
out through

4705
02:54:21,809 --> 02:54:23,580
the 1800s three
Legislature

4706
02:54:23,580 --> 02:54:26,130
adopting the
marginal land model.

4707
02:54:26,130 --> 02:54:28,560
We quickly took
that model and

4708
02:54:28,560 --> 02:54:29,729
applied it and it's that

4709
02:54:29,729 --> 02:54:31,905
model that we
wish to keep.

4710
02:54:31,905 --> 02:54:34,724
Your weight could ask
one question I asked.

4711
02:54:34,724 --> 02:54:37,215
Well, you might think
about a new comment.

4712
02:54:37,215 --> 02:54:39,780
We assume for a
moment we're past

4713
02:54:39,780 --> 02:54:40,979
the legal question is

4714
02:54:40,979 --> 02:54:41,400
somebody had

4715
02:54:41,400 --> 02:54:43,559
mentioned and we're
talking policy.

4716
02:54:43,559 --> 02:54:46,410
I know your legal
argument as opposed to

4717
02:54:46,410 --> 02:54:47,850
the 283 counties
is that you

4718
02:54:47,850 --> 02:54:50,174
were treated differently
by the legislature.

4719
02:54:50,174 --> 02:54:52,200
But it strikes
me that some of

4720
02:54:52,200 --> 02:54:54,509
the policy
arguments you've

4721
02:54:54,509 --> 02:54:55,620
made could be made

4722
02:54:55,620 --> 02:55:01,720
equally by some to 83
counties work program.

4723
02:55:02,840 --> 02:55:05,399
Any number of
other points,

4724
02:55:05,399 --> 02:55:07,499
I guess and I guess
I'm wondering what you

4725
02:55:07,499 --> 02:55:10,694
could either or both
could say as to why.

4726
02:55:10,694 --> 02:55:12,374
As a matter of policy,

4727
02:55:12,374 --> 02:55:15,119
the two 13s to view

4728
02:55:15,119 --> 02:55:17,699
really should be
treated differently.

4729
02:55:17,699 --> 02:55:19,020
Is there anything
inherently unique,

4730
02:55:19,020 --> 02:55:20,250
either into 213 and

4731
02:55:20,250 --> 02:55:21,584
your marginal land status

4732
02:55:21,584 --> 02:55:23,459
or your circumstances?

4733
02:55:23,459 --> 02:55:25,440
It would give us
the ability to say,

4734
02:55:25,440 --> 02:55:26,670
as a matter of policy

4735
02:55:26,670 --> 02:55:30,090
and urine the urine
a different catalyst

4736
02:55:30,090 --> 02:55:35,340
super I think briefly
to two answers.

4737
02:55:35,340 --> 02:55:37,289
Marginal land counties,

4738
02:55:37,289 --> 02:55:41,549
the marginal land
provisions require,

4739
02:55:41,549 --> 02:55:44,115
if we elect to
be marginal,

4740
02:55:44,115 --> 02:55:46,739
we're required
by legislation

4741
02:55:46,739 --> 02:55:49,319
to apply to 15 to 13.

4742
02:55:49,319 --> 02:55:54,539
That side I think is
to 15 to 88 sub three.

4743
02:55:54,539 --> 02:55:57,614
That applies to
those that choose.

4744
02:55:57,614 --> 02:55:59,700
The rest of the
counties don't have

4745
02:55:59,700 --> 02:56:01,649
that direct
legislative directive

4746
02:56:01,649 --> 02:56:03,105
to do a particular thing.

4747
02:56:03,105 --> 02:56:04,919
They're under 288 in

4748
02:56:04,919 --> 02:56:06,914
a more generalized
way. So.

4749
02:56:06,914 --> 02:56:08,729
Where we have
legislation that

4750
02:56:08,729 --> 02:56:10,979
tells us which lists
to use. It's a 213.

4751
02:56:10,979 --> 02:56:13,710
We can't go to the
two to 83 lists.

4752
02:56:13,710 --> 02:56:16,125
It's 213. That's
different for us.

4753
02:56:16,125 --> 02:56:17,400
The second thing
that might

4754
02:56:17,400 --> 02:56:18,450
distinguish us

4755
02:56:18,450 --> 02:56:19,845
from the rest of
the Valley counties

4756
02:56:19,845 --> 02:56:23,520
is that we do

4757
02:56:23,520 --> 02:56:25,424
have a lot of urban
planning work to do.

4758
02:56:25,424 --> 02:56:26,640
And there are a number of

4759
02:56:26,640 --> 02:56:29,759
other counties
that certainly

4760
02:56:29,759 --> 02:56:31,410
have urban planning
responsibilities.

4761
02:56:31,410 --> 02:56:33,000
But by enlarge there left

4762
02:56:33,000 --> 02:56:35,639
to cities to work out
and take the lead on.

4763
02:56:35,639 --> 02:56:37,290
We have the lead on many,

4764
02:56:37,290 --> 02:56:38,835
many urban planning
activities.

4765
02:56:38,835 --> 02:56:41,609
And I know that link

4766
02:56:41,609 --> 02:56:43,380
County has that same kind

4767
02:56:43,380 --> 02:56:45,060
of situation as well.

4768
02:56:45,060 --> 02:56:47,820
And so I think those
two things would

4769
02:56:47,820 --> 02:56:49,110
distinguish link County in

4770
02:56:49,110 --> 02:56:50,400
Washington County
and whether

4771
02:56:50,400 --> 02:56:51,765
it's catchy twice that.

4772
02:56:51,765 --> 02:56:54,059
None of the other
counties to which no,

4773
02:56:54,059 --> 02:56:54,810
I think that was

4774
02:56:54,810 --> 02:56:55,830
one of the county
that comes to

4775
02:56:55,830 --> 02:56:58,170
mind that would have

4776
02:56:58,170 --> 02:56:59,669
heavy urban planning
responsibly,

4777
02:56:59,669 --> 02:57:01,124
and that's
classless County.

4778
02:57:01,124 --> 02:57:04,470
Mr. Chair, I I'd like
to follow up on that.

4779
02:57:04,470 --> 02:57:05,550
My understanding is that

4780
02:57:05,550 --> 02:57:07,679
Washington County
and Lane County

4781
02:57:07,679 --> 02:57:09,929
are actually about on

4782
02:57:09,929 --> 02:57:11,594
polar ends of
the continuum.

4783
02:57:11,594 --> 02:57:13,019
It comes to that urban, I

4784
02:57:13,019 --> 02:57:14,490
thought you had
a situation

4785
02:57:14,490 --> 02:57:17,339
where most of that urban
planning was done,

4786
02:57:17,339 --> 02:57:18,989
but the cities within

4787
02:57:18,989 --> 02:57:20,099
the urban growth boundary

4788
02:57:20,099 --> 02:57:21,225
that you'd actually had

4789
02:57:21,225 --> 02:57:23,879
transfer agreements
and that you were

4790
02:57:23,879 --> 02:57:27,524
primarily a
rural provider.

4791
02:57:27,524 --> 02:57:31,649
Does that chair

4792
02:57:31,649 --> 02:57:36,180
blas or mission member
true? That's not.

4793
02:57:36,180 --> 02:57:37,830
We have transferred

4794
02:57:37,830 --> 02:57:39,585
the day-to-day
administration

4795
02:57:39,585 --> 02:57:41,400
of the codes to

4796
02:57:41,400 --> 02:57:43,935
the two cities in Eugene
Springfield area.

4797
02:57:43,935 --> 02:57:46,785
However, we have a

4798
02:57:46,785 --> 02:57:48,479
rather unique metropolitan

4799
02:57:48,479 --> 02:57:49,979
comprehensive plan,

4800
02:57:49,979 --> 02:57:53,759
which currently is under

4801
02:57:53,759 --> 02:57:56,009
the start of the
periodic review process,

4802
02:57:56,009 --> 02:57:57,149
and we have some

4803
02:57:57,149 --> 02:58:00,824
substantial work
requirements

4804
02:58:00,824 --> 02:58:04,935
in periodic review
dealing with

4805
02:58:04,935 --> 02:58:07,094
a number of issues
that were Act

4806
02:58:07,094 --> 02:58:09,479
will have to actively
be involved with.

4807
02:58:09,479 --> 02:58:10,590
So we haven't transferred

4808
02:58:10,590 --> 02:58:12,929
the long-range
planning outside

4809
02:58:12,929 --> 02:58:14,670
of a another way
of saying it

4810
02:58:14,670 --> 02:58:16,500
is you're transferring
plaza judicial,

4811
02:58:16,500 --> 02:58:17,954
but you kept
legislative and

4812
02:58:17,954 --> 02:58:19,679
fundamentally, yes.

4813
02:58:19,679 --> 02:58:21,749
Once you go into your
product presentation,

4814
02:58:21,749 --> 02:58:23,070
let me just hold
there for a

4815
02:58:23,070 --> 02:58:25,320
second and talk to
commission about lunch.

4816
02:58:25,320 --> 02:58:27,419
Shall we go to 12,

4817
02:58:27,419 --> 02:58:29,009
30 and pick a

4818
02:58:29,009 --> 02:58:31,199
break them or just work
through this issue?

4819
02:58:31,199 --> 02:58:33,089
Well, we will be
here until 03:00.

4820
02:58:33,089 --> 02:58:34,769
Forget through this
issue I suspect

4821
02:58:34,769 --> 02:58:36,089
could we haven't heard
from the other side.

4822
02:58:36,089 --> 02:58:37,589
I want to hear from
the folks who think

4823
02:58:37,589 --> 02:58:41,504
we ought to apply,
clarify even that.

4824
02:58:41,504 --> 02:58:44,220
Sometimes. Why would
we go to 12, 30?

4825
02:58:44,220 --> 02:58:47,070
Why not just break
right before right.

4826
02:58:47,070 --> 02:58:48,975
Yeah. Before I start.

4827
02:58:48,975 --> 02:58:50,640
My own personal preference

4828
02:58:50,640 --> 02:58:51,569
would be if we could hear

4829
02:58:51,569 --> 02:58:54,195
the testimony and let it

4830
02:58:54,195 --> 02:58:55,409
I'd prefer to let

4831
02:58:55,409 --> 02:58:57,735
Berkeley it's
sinking over lunch.

4832
02:58:57,735 --> 02:58:59,880
If we can get through ROI

4833
02:58:59,880 --> 02:59:01,739
and whoever else
may wish to speak

4834
02:59:01,739 --> 02:59:03,599
I'd given I'm
just trying to

4835
02:59:03,599 --> 02:59:04,350
give 20 min to

4836
02:59:04,350 --> 02:59:06,750
Washington County,
give another 22.

4837
02:59:06,750 --> 02:59:08,864
Roi, takes that long.

4838
02:59:08,864 --> 02:59:10,409
I think we ought to think

4839
02:59:10,409 --> 02:59:13,245
that maybe 20 also
we're at 01:00.

4840
02:59:13,245 --> 02:59:15,314
So that's okay. Let
me see where we are.

4841
02:59:15,314 --> 02:59:16,214
Let's see where ROI goes.

4842
02:59:16,214 --> 02:59:17,999
Okay, let's go
ahead and write.

4843
02:59:17,999 --> 02:59:21,969
Not putting pressure.
No, I understand.