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Everybody will say that's

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okay and I have to do

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that in a room on
the boat here.

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Otherwise, if you get

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that message the
rest of the time,

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I'm going to go
ahead and start.

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Welcome everybody to

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the System Science Friday

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noon Seminar Series.

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Today, we're pleased that

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have Roderick Campbell,

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I'm presenting
remotely what to us.

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And he's a recent
PhD graduate,

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saber university.

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And many of us
you just got

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to know gamma w
was an attendee at

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the ISS as conferences

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and down at the
workings, say no.

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Yeah, ringing say two
or three years ago now.

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Right? And he got
to know several of

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our students in I'm going

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to let say

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Well that wildlife
background and

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interests and an end

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it is that they
take it away.

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Well, thank you.

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And I was really

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excited to attend an
actual S conference

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because before that,
my program at,

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say Brooke was
primarily focused on

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organizational development

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and leadership
development strategies.

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What was nice
about attending

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the systems
science conference

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is that I got to see

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practitioners really
use system signs

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and systems thinking in

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a way that I hadn't
seen before.

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As a matter of fact,
as you'll come to

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discover throughout
this presentation,

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my particular field
of interests was

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not covered by the,

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the real meat of

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the curriculum that
I was studying.

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And I was kinda
perplex like,

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why isn't this

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this curriculum
geared toward me?

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And what that did is it

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gave me an opportunity to

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really explore the use of

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systems and

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public policy and
public administration,

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which is the
theme of, of the,

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the presentation that
I have for you today.

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I actually worked a
number of years to

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mining the
literature so that

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able to develop
the theories and

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methods and
methodologies of

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science and apply it

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to this thing called
public policy.

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So that was quite
a new thing

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for me and it was
actually very nice

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because it all started
with my attending

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the two years of

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the actual blast
conference

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and really opened up a
lot of doors for me.

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One of the things that
I saw a lot in the,

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the let in curriculum
was an emphasis on

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management and
private management,

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for profit management.

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And a lot of
the strategies

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and tactics that
I was studying

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had to do with those
those private entities.

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But my question
was always,

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well, what about
public sector?

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What about cities
and towns and,

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and, and federal
government systems?

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That was where a lot of

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my work piece 3
plus problem.

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I'm Virginia legislature.

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I worked for
city councils,

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but I didn't see
that reflected in

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the curriculum
until I started

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to see some of

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the things that some
of the theorists

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were saying why I
like this quote,

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expanding management
boundaries and

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I'm just painting
the limits.

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That might shape
the future,

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means challenging

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established ways
of thinking.

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And then question
mental models.

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Organizations that

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fail to develop
these abilities

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tend to react to

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group problems with
shorter term fixes.

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More control, more
within their control.

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There is nothing
wrong with that.

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But often short-term
solutions become part of

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a strategy of

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consistently avoiding
deeper problems.

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So I went, aha, that's,

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that's that's
exactly what I'm

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trying to hone in on

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that that that,
that you need.

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But what drives me

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and it encapsulates a lot

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of the problems and
issues that I saw.

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My years of
public service,

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especially those

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organizations that were
deeply entrenched.

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Public organizations
have to

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sort of asked for their

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budget every year, right?

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So there was a constant
renewal of hey,

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let's do the same thing
as we did last year.

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Or they will cut
our funding, right?

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So those
organizations were

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stuck and wired in

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a reductionist sort of

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approach to not
only manage bit,

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but more importantly for
public organizations

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who are tasked with

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solving society's
problems.

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They were stuck in
that reduction is

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model while trying to

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solve some of the world.

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Biggest problems.

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So I learned that

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these so-called
wicked problems were

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really stymie in
local jurisdictions

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and even larger
jurisdiction.

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So my initial questions at

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the beginning of
my research were,

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what are these
wicked problems

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and how are they?

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Tom, Bye, bye theorist.

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And what is
systems thinking?

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I may sound general,

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but I'd had to develop or

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understand what
system thinking was

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in light of not only
public organizations,

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but the

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practice of public
administration, right?

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So what I learned is

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that there were different
systems approaches

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for different purposes and

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they all had practical
examples, right?

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So one of the
findings that I,

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I came out of this
research with

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was that key
principles for

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flexible and
responsive system spec

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is we're embedded
within the models,

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but they need to
be teased out.

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There wasn't a
whole lot of

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experiential
examples of how

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this could work
in real life.

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One of the things
that I saw was that

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public agencies
tend to deal

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with many
interlinked issues.

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They happened to be
those issue that kind of

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cost particular silo
they can cause division.

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The car cost.

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A health issue.
I was looking at

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a study that had to
do with climate,

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the climate crisis
and mental health.

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Okay.

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That screamed out for

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a systems approach to it.

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But there was such
an approach to it.

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They had the the

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those that are
involved in policy.

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Did you look to System

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Science for the answer,

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they tended to
try and handle

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the problem in a silo.

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And of course what
they did is it

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created an externality
in another issue area.

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So what they would do

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is that they would solve

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the problem in a six
month time period.

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And then in in in

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in six months they would

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have the same problem.

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I was working
with a town here,

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the City of Bell No,

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that was trying to

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solve the
homeless problem.

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And they thought,
well, okay,

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the POME that I'm
having is that

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there aren't

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enough resources for
homeless people.

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And so within
the town, they

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devoted a great number

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of the budgetary resources

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to solving a problem.

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Well, what happened?

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Because the facilities and

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the services were so nice,

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that ended up being a draw

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for homeless, right?

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So they ended
up increasing

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their homeless problem

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by attacking
with resources.

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Well, that wasn't
really a problem,

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that wasn't
really a solution

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of a problem and

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actually it made
the problem worse.

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All right, so looking at,

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at multiple
agencies across

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public and private and
voluntary sectors,

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trying to account
for multiple skills,

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both local and
regional and national

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and global were
something that those,

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in that particular
case, we're not doing.

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Okay.

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They fail to understand
the magnitude

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of the issue the wiki

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parliament they were
trying to solve.

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And so they had

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an unintended
consequences. There.

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They failed to have

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multiple number of
views on the problem,

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and therefore they
limited the number of

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solutions that can occur.

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One of the things
that I would

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do if I was asked to

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be involved in
that situation

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is use some techniques,

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some systems
thinking techniques

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to allow them to
figure out what

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are the different views on

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particular problem that
they could use before

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they solved the issue
that they want to

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make use of their
externalities

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so that they can actually
solve the problem.

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The conflict over
desired outcomes,

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or the means to
achieve them,

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and the power relations.

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Making that
change difficult.

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If you're not
thinking, typically,

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you don't have
the ability to

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address those conflicts
over those outcomes.

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And you don't put

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yourself in a
position to, to,

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to deal with the
uncertainty that possible

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effects like
the one I just

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described could
happen with

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whatever action you take.

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This becomes really,
really important

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as policymakers

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to really try to address

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problems within
their belly wake.

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And, and sometimes
they have problems.

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They try to address or
not scoped properly.

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And so they have these
negative outcomes.

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Throughout my research,
I found that it

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has an understanding
of the complex systems

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around objects or
problem or concern

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is for understanding and

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solving those can be
dependent social,

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environmental and
economic problems,

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such as the global
coronavirus pandemic,

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okay.

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If they weren't
to be looking at,

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I still see today

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medical health
professionals and

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health public health
officials are

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trying really hard to

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address issues
with coronavirus.

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But they're doing it
on a local level.

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And so they don't have

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a systematic way
of addressing

274
00:11:30,439 --> 00:11:33,724
it vaccine as a
systematic solution

275
00:11:33,724 --> 00:11:35,044
to that problem, right?

276
00:11:35,044 --> 00:11:37,370
But they were trying

277
00:11:37,370 --> 00:11:38,660
masking and they
were trying

278
00:11:38,660 --> 00:11:39,814
social distancing,

279
00:11:39,814 --> 00:11:42,710
which of course, what
will help according to

280
00:11:42,710 --> 00:11:45,754
the percentage of virus
in your community.

281
00:11:45,754 --> 00:11:46,909
But it doesn't address

282
00:11:46,909 --> 00:11:48,470
the overall problem like

283
00:11:48,470 --> 00:11:49,969
the vaccine does of

284
00:11:49,969 --> 00:11:52,429
stopping the virus at all.

285
00:11:52,429 --> 00:11:53,749
But what was really,

286
00:11:53,749 --> 00:11:55,220
really exciting
to me about

287
00:11:55,220 --> 00:11:57,530
my research is that
what I found is I

288
00:11:57,530 --> 00:12:01,609
found some researchers
who were looking at

289
00:12:01,609 --> 00:12:05,824
the way the children
were taught.

290
00:12:05,824 --> 00:12:08,360
And I thought what,
this is really a bell.

291
00:12:08,360 --> 00:12:09,890
I'm studying systems.

292
00:12:09,890 --> 00:12:11,209
I don't really
need to be talking

293
00:12:11,209 --> 00:12:13,130
about childhood education.

294
00:12:13,130 --> 00:12:14,089
Trojan.

295
00:12:14,089 --> 00:12:16,954
Well, what was exciting
about that is it.

296
00:12:16,954 --> 00:12:19,729
We, I saw that there was

297
00:12:19,729 --> 00:12:22,985
a need to have
a systemic view

298
00:12:22,985 --> 00:12:25,444
of the problems
that were created

299
00:12:25,444 --> 00:12:28,534
in these public
sector entities.

300
00:12:28,534 --> 00:12:31,460
So if we were to
teach children how to

301
00:12:31,460 --> 00:12:34,249
think systemically
as they grew up,

302
00:12:34,249 --> 00:12:35,824
they would have that sense

303
00:12:35,824 --> 00:12:39,785
of system sensibility
as they grew up.

304
00:12:39,785 --> 00:12:42,169
And it would, it
wouldn't be something

305
00:12:42,169 --> 00:12:44,899
that we'd have to
help them learn.

306
00:12:44,899 --> 00:12:47,120
As they became adults,
they would infuse

307
00:12:47,120 --> 00:12:49,595
that system
thinking knowledge

308
00:12:49,595 --> 00:12:53,490
into a variety of things.

309
00:12:55,090 --> 00:12:57,410
What I wanted was to

310
00:12:57,410 --> 00:13:02,030
have individuals
and organizations

311
00:13:02,030 --> 00:13:04,190
have the ability to evolve

312
00:13:04,190 --> 00:13:06,965
their paradigms or
overcome obstacles

313
00:13:06,965 --> 00:13:09,170
through the use of systems

314
00:13:09,170 --> 00:13:13,400
thinking and systems
thinking practice.

315
00:13:13,400 --> 00:13:17,240
With the tools of
systems language,

316
00:13:17,240 --> 00:13:19,579
with the tools of
systems awareness,

317
00:13:19,579 --> 00:13:24,169
capability, noticing
inside an observation.

318
00:13:24,169 --> 00:13:27,540
And of course
the research.

319
00:13:28,300 --> 00:13:30,740
The policymakers and I

320
00:13:30,740 --> 00:13:31,789
was trying to help them,

321
00:13:31,789 --> 00:13:34,880
decision-makers would
be better position,

322
00:13:34,880 --> 00:13:37,640
excel in a world
which is volatile,

323
00:13:37,640 --> 00:13:40,775
uncertain, complex,
and ambiguous, right?

324
00:13:40,775 --> 00:13:42,440
So with that tool,

325
00:13:42,440 --> 00:13:44,510
they would be
able to look past

326
00:13:44,510 --> 00:13:46,939
those short-term solutions
that they had and

327
00:13:46,939 --> 00:13:48,199
actually apply systems

328
00:13:48,199 --> 00:13:50,600
thinking to
their processes

329
00:13:50,600 --> 00:13:52,039
and hopefully

330
00:13:52,039 --> 00:13:53,300
come up with a
better solution that

331
00:13:53,300 --> 00:13:56,224
they had been coming
with all this time.

332
00:13:56,224 --> 00:13:58,549
So what I was trying to

333
00:13:58,549 --> 00:14:01,220
advocate is the
systems thinking

334
00:14:01,220 --> 00:14:04,309
for people who had never
had systems training

335
00:14:04,309 --> 00:14:06,679
before would
offer a new way

336
00:14:06,679 --> 00:14:09,560
for them to conceptualize
policy problems.

337
00:14:09,560 --> 00:14:11,660
That when they
open the door to

338
00:14:11,660 --> 00:14:14,330
innovative new ways
of working with

339
00:14:14,330 --> 00:14:16,700
communities and
for tackling

340
00:14:16,700 --> 00:14:19,340
those wicked policy
problems. Okay?

341
00:14:19,340 --> 00:14:20,960
System thinking
would allow

342
00:14:20,960 --> 00:14:22,729
those policymakers
to be more

343
00:14:22,729 --> 00:14:26,030
agile and to D,
bureaucratized.

344
00:14:26,030 --> 00:14:28,205
They're there.

345
00:14:28,205 --> 00:14:29,600
The way in which they

346
00:14:29,600 --> 00:14:30,710
were solving the problems.

347
00:14:30,710 --> 00:14:32,600
It would be
rich, 3D rigid,

348
00:14:32,600 --> 00:14:34,549
apply some of the
issues that they

349
00:14:34,549 --> 00:14:37,040
were so lucky and to,

350
00:14:37,040 --> 00:14:39,229
to trying to solve

351
00:14:39,229 --> 00:14:41,119
and it would decompose
middle lies,

352
00:14:41,119 --> 00:14:43,640
the organizations
that we're

353
00:14:43,640 --> 00:14:46,804
trying to address
the policy problems,

354
00:14:46,804 --> 00:14:49,430
systems thinking alone, it

355
00:14:49,430 --> 00:14:51,214
putting into
something practice

356
00:14:51,214 --> 00:14:52,759
would have all of
those effects.

357
00:14:52,759 --> 00:14:54,994
And that was
established literature.

358
00:14:54,994 --> 00:14:56,030
Okay?

359
00:14:56,030 --> 00:14:58,864
What I learned was that

360
00:14:58,864 --> 00:15:00,199
policymakers could

361
00:15:00,199 --> 00:15:01,790
use those
practical systems

362
00:15:01,790 --> 00:15:05,584
thinking skills through
meaningful options

363
00:15:05,584 --> 00:15:07,939
to create a
positive impact

364
00:15:07,939 --> 00:15:09,755
on the policy process.

365
00:15:09,755 --> 00:15:11,929
This has not been
done before, okay,

366
00:15:11,929 --> 00:15:14,810
so even though it was
in the literature,

367
00:15:14,810 --> 00:15:16,489
we had a class of people,

368
00:15:16,489 --> 00:15:18,830
policymakers, and
decision makers

369
00:15:18,830 --> 00:15:19,954
in the public sphere

370
00:15:19,954 --> 00:15:21,230
who didn't have
a knowledge

371
00:15:21,230 --> 00:15:23,660
of systems thinking and
therefore one using

372
00:15:23,660 --> 00:15:26,929
those processes to
their advantage, right?

373
00:15:26,929 --> 00:15:29,959
I learned that the
system thinking will

374
00:15:29,959 --> 00:15:35,539
allow policymakers
more agile.

375
00:15:35,539 --> 00:15:38,615
And it would, the,

376
00:15:38,615 --> 00:15:41,120
the systems
framework would

377
00:15:41,120 --> 00:15:43,279
be designed to employ.

378
00:15:43,279 --> 00:15:45,305
Oh sorry. Okay.

379
00:15:45,305 --> 00:15:47,210
So one of the things,

380
00:15:47,210 --> 00:15:48,050
one of the pushbacks I

381
00:15:48,050 --> 00:15:49,189
got during this research,

382
00:15:49,189 --> 00:15:52,924
what would be, the
decision-makers,

383
00:15:52,924 --> 00:15:54,379
policymakers
would respond to

384
00:15:54,379 --> 00:15:56,210
be in research and say,

385
00:15:56,210 --> 00:16:01,880
well, we operate in the
coercive environment.

386
00:16:01,880 --> 00:16:03,439
We operate in an
environment with

387
00:16:03,439 --> 00:16:05,900
a number of polit,
power dynamics.

388
00:16:05,900 --> 00:16:07,970
And we operate
environment where

389
00:16:07,970 --> 00:16:12,740
political issues may
take something in.

390
00:16:12,740 --> 00:16:16,099
And even though there's
a really good policy,

391
00:16:16,099 --> 00:16:18,290
our policy reason for it.

392
00:16:18,290 --> 00:16:19,414
The environment would

393
00:16:19,414 --> 00:16:20,780
actually skew the results.

394
00:16:20,780 --> 00:16:21,484
Okay?

395
00:16:21,484 --> 00:16:23,434
What I found is
that systems,

396
00:16:23,434 --> 00:16:25,730
the critical system
thinking framework,

397
00:16:25,730 --> 00:16:28,174
would actually assist them

398
00:16:28,174 --> 00:16:29,480
in that course
environment.

399
00:16:29,480 --> 00:16:31,010
A lot of research
being done by

400
00:16:31,010 --> 00:16:35,419
Michael Jackson of
the systems community

401
00:16:35,419 --> 00:16:39,829
that really lends
some credibility

402
00:16:39,829 --> 00:16:40,970
to this critical system

403
00:16:40,970 --> 00:16:43,670
thinking framework issue.

404
00:16:43,670 --> 00:16:45,545
And through that,
I learned that

405
00:16:45,545 --> 00:16:48,410
policymakers can
use the systems

406
00:16:48,410 --> 00:16:51,395
thinking tools through
meaningful options

407
00:16:51,395 --> 00:16:54,379
to create that
positive impact.

408
00:16:54,379 --> 00:17:03,284
So what did I do? I was
sort of mental loss,

409
00:17:03,284 --> 00:17:06,550
but I had to develop
the study population.

410
00:17:06,550 --> 00:17:08,020
I said, Well, boom,
I guess that you

411
00:17:08,020 --> 00:17:10,449
originally my
idea with OK,

412
00:17:10,449 --> 00:17:12,190
I can steady policymakers.

413
00:17:12,190 --> 00:17:14,619
I'll get a number
of lawmakers.

414
00:17:14,619 --> 00:17:19,299
I'll get people
who are local,

415
00:17:19,299 --> 00:17:22,239
elected and
appointed officials.

416
00:17:22,239 --> 00:17:25,104
I would get people at
the federal level.

417
00:17:25,104 --> 00:17:27,774
I would get international
policymakers

418
00:17:27,774 --> 00:17:28,270
and through

419
00:17:28,270 --> 00:17:29,800
all these policy
maker and I would

420
00:17:29,800 --> 00:17:32,500
be able to ask
them the question

421
00:17:32,500 --> 00:17:35,350
about what systems
tools they were using.

422
00:17:35,350 --> 00:17:37,089
And that would
be the basis for

423
00:17:37,089 --> 00:17:39,890
me to figure out
best practices.

424
00:17:40,830 --> 00:17:44,639
That was me.

425
00:17:44,639 --> 00:17:47,075
Yeah. But it didn't
work very well.

426
00:17:47,075 --> 00:17:47,960
Okay.

427
00:17:47,960 --> 00:17:49,430
One of the things
I ran into

428
00:17:49,430 --> 00:17:51,019
when I was addressing

429
00:17:51,019 --> 00:17:53,929
the IRB with my proposal
was that the states,

430
00:17:53,929 --> 00:17:55,519
the schools at my
school IRBs and

431
00:17:55,519 --> 00:17:57,080
well, in order to do that,

432
00:17:57,080 --> 00:18:00,080
you're going to have to
get special approval

433
00:18:00,080 --> 00:18:02,300
from each legislator from

434
00:18:02,300 --> 00:18:03,575
there, let's
say I'm a body.

435
00:18:03,575 --> 00:18:04,819
Essentially, you're
going to have to

436
00:18:04,819 --> 00:18:06,424
get some sort of

437
00:18:06,424 --> 00:18:08,300
agreement from them that

438
00:18:08,300 --> 00:18:10,250
you can actually put
them into a steady.

439
00:18:10,250 --> 00:18:13,610
I said, Wow, that's
going to be huge.

440
00:18:13,610 --> 00:18:15,004
That's can be
major for me to

441
00:18:15,004 --> 00:18:17,029
get all the approvals
that I need that are

442
00:18:17,029 --> 00:18:19,010
necessary to interview

443
00:18:19,010 --> 00:18:21,634
those state and local
elected officials.

444
00:18:21,634 --> 00:18:23,389
So what I did is
I said, well,

445
00:18:23,389 --> 00:18:28,310
there are scientists,
social scientists,

446
00:18:28,310 --> 00:18:30,140
system scientists who are

447
00:18:30,140 --> 00:18:32,465
addressing these
issues every day.

448
00:18:32,465 --> 00:18:34,685
So why don't I go to

449
00:18:34,685 --> 00:18:38,255
a group of solar
system scientists,

450
00:18:38,255 --> 00:18:39,559
ask them the question,

451
00:18:39,559 --> 00:18:42,605
asked them which which

452
00:18:42,605 --> 00:18:45,020
processes and procedures
they were using.

453
00:18:45,020 --> 00:18:47,269
So I went to the
International System,

454
00:18:47,269 --> 00:18:49,400
society influences
and scientists.

455
00:18:49,400 --> 00:18:51,980
And I found very
few scientists

456
00:18:51,980 --> 00:18:53,090
were actually working in

457
00:18:53,090 --> 00:18:54,679
the public sphere, right?

458
00:18:54,679 --> 00:18:57,664
So out of a group
of 1000 of them,

459
00:18:57,664 --> 00:18:58,460
I didn't get

460
00:18:58,460 --> 00:19:00,574
very many responses
to my survey.

461
00:19:00,574 --> 00:19:02,419
So I said, okay,
well then I'm

462
00:19:02,419 --> 00:19:04,250
going to go to the auto

463
00:19:04,250 --> 00:19:05,299
signing out on the

464
00:19:05,299 --> 00:19:06,964
Operations
Research Society

465
00:19:06,964 --> 00:19:08,765
is based in
London, England.

466
00:19:08,765 --> 00:19:11,450
And they're a group
of system scientists,

467
00:19:11,450 --> 00:19:12,980
for the most part who

468
00:19:12,980 --> 00:19:16,700
have practical experience,

469
00:19:16,700 --> 00:19:18,515
experience at the county

470
00:19:18,515 --> 00:19:20,330
and the city level of

471
00:19:20,330 --> 00:19:24,440
using systems
thinking practices.

472
00:19:24,440 --> 00:19:26,779
Well, that turned
out to be more

473
00:19:26,779 --> 00:19:30,154
beneficial than those
at the I triple S.

474
00:19:30,154 --> 00:19:30,709
Okay.

475
00:19:30,709 --> 00:19:32,810
While recruited
them by email,

476
00:19:32,810 --> 00:19:35,120
serve as a principal
investigator for

477
00:19:35,120 --> 00:19:37,655
the steady and screened,

478
00:19:37,655 --> 00:19:41,165
interview and
develop results

479
00:19:41,165 --> 00:19:45,574
for those scientists
who were apart,

480
00:19:45,574 --> 00:19:48,630
who could be a
part of the study.

481
00:19:51,570 --> 00:19:56,050
It's all a at the
beginning of,

482
00:19:56,050 --> 00:19:57,864
at the end of last year,

483
00:19:57,864 --> 00:20:04,640
I began my process
and then COVID hit.

484
00:20:05,400 --> 00:20:07,749
And I was having

485
00:20:07,749 --> 00:20:11,620
a tremendous
problem getting

486
00:20:11,620 --> 00:20:14,155
results for my study.

487
00:20:14,155 --> 00:20:16,929
People were not,
understandably,

488
00:20:16,929 --> 00:20:19,420
people were not
responding.

489
00:20:19,420 --> 00:20:22,105
And I had actually

490
00:20:22,105 --> 00:20:24,459
set up in a rage
and abused for

491
00:20:24,459 --> 00:20:27,190
the Principal
Consultant for

492
00:20:27,190 --> 00:20:30,355
the Office of the Prime
Minister ON lended.

493
00:20:30,355 --> 00:20:31,375
We are set up,

494
00:20:31,375 --> 00:20:32,590
we have the interview
and everything.

495
00:20:32,590 --> 00:20:35,509
And of course minute
then COVID hit.

496
00:20:35,509 --> 00:20:37,249
He was put away too.

497
00:20:37,249 --> 00:20:39,709
He and his entire
team were put away

498
00:20:39,709 --> 00:20:44,104
to another urgent
emergency.

499
00:20:44,104 --> 00:20:47,570
So I retooled my study,

500
00:20:47,570 --> 00:20:49,445
which is something
you have to do.

501
00:20:49,445 --> 00:20:52,280
And I found out that
researchers were

502
00:20:52,280 --> 00:20:53,929
actually studying

503
00:20:53,929 --> 00:20:57,170
the same thing
over in London.

504
00:20:57,170 --> 00:20:58,010
Alright.

505
00:20:58,010 --> 00:21:01,189
So I want to delay
a timid to try and

506
00:21:01,189 --> 00:21:02,960
learn from them piggyback

507
00:21:02,960 --> 00:21:04,714
on the share
research, right?

508
00:21:04,714 --> 00:21:06,679
What they came up
with and what I came

509
00:21:06,679 --> 00:21:08,750
up with is something
called the policy,

510
00:21:08,750 --> 00:21:10,969
the science policy
interface, right?

511
00:21:10,969 --> 00:21:14,735
What that is,
is a number of

512
00:21:14,735 --> 00:21:17,884
researchers coming
together and saying,

513
00:21:17,884 --> 00:21:18,950
just, hey,

514
00:21:18,950 --> 00:21:23,189
there is a advantageous,

515
00:21:24,850 --> 00:21:29,674
there's an advantage
to using science,

516
00:21:29,674 --> 00:21:31,594
specifically
System Science

517
00:21:31,594 --> 00:21:33,680
in policy deliberations.

518
00:21:33,680 --> 00:21:36,725
Right before this,
that was not heard.

519
00:21:36,725 --> 00:21:39,664
We would use science in
business operations.

520
00:21:39,664 --> 00:21:41,240
We will use a
system science

521
00:21:41,240 --> 00:21:42,799
and other operations,

522
00:21:42,799 --> 00:21:46,730
but we never actually
use System Science in

523
00:21:46,730 --> 00:21:49,219
developing policy
or to address

524
00:21:49,219 --> 00:21:50,389
issues that came up in

525
00:21:50,389 --> 00:21:52,085
policy-making
organizations.

526
00:21:52,085 --> 00:21:54,994
So what I found is that

527
00:21:54,994 --> 00:21:58,114
Through a number
of things,

528
00:21:58,114 --> 00:22:00,830
system science
was being used to

529
00:22:00,830 --> 00:22:03,875
address those issues
that cannot be solved.

530
00:22:03,875 --> 00:22:07,610
For instance, one of
the scientists wrote

531
00:22:07,610 --> 00:22:10,820
a paper about the effect

532
00:22:10,820 --> 00:22:12,454
of climate change
on mental health.

533
00:22:12,454 --> 00:22:14,330
Something I'd never
thought would

534
00:22:14,330 --> 00:22:16,714
be juxtaposed
with one another.

535
00:22:16,714 --> 00:22:18,740
They were able to use

536
00:22:18,740 --> 00:22:21,230
systems thinking
processes to

537
00:22:21,230 --> 00:22:23,329
address the two things

538
00:22:23,329 --> 00:22:26,044
and how they relate to
one another, right?

539
00:22:26,044 --> 00:22:28,279
So those key
principles for

540
00:22:28,279 --> 00:22:29,569
flexible and responsive

541
00:22:29,569 --> 00:22:31,159
systems literature
practice.

542
00:22:31,159 --> 00:22:35,270
We're in the book

543
00:22:35,270 --> 00:22:36,139
in the interface and

544
00:22:36,139 --> 00:22:37,405
coming out of
the research.

545
00:22:37,405 --> 00:22:39,260
They, they both, that they

546
00:22:39,260 --> 00:22:42,274
found when putting those
two things together.

547
00:22:42,274 --> 00:22:46,475
And so little dots
to the right K.

548
00:22:46,475 --> 00:22:50,240
Through this, we can now
use systems thinking

549
00:22:50,240 --> 00:22:52,189
practices among

550
00:22:52,189 --> 00:22:54,229
policymakers and
decision-makers,

551
00:22:54,229 --> 00:22:57,245
appointed elected
officials and researchers.

552
00:22:57,245 --> 00:22:58,579
Okay, we can develop

553
00:22:58,579 --> 00:23:00,995
a conceptual framework
for the management

554
00:23:00,995 --> 00:23:03,364
of complex
government systems

555
00:23:03,364 --> 00:23:05,810
that were involved in,

556
00:23:05,810 --> 00:23:08,119
in systems thinking,
in practice.

557
00:23:08,119 --> 00:23:09,800
That was not
heard of before,

558
00:23:09,800 --> 00:23:12,064
before they would.

559
00:23:12,064 --> 00:23:14,989
When we develop the
conceptual framework,

560
00:23:14,989 --> 00:23:16,609
we were doing things on

561
00:23:16,609 --> 00:23:20,630
a really
interdependent way.

562
00:23:20,630 --> 00:23:23,899
So to look like

563
00:23:23,899 --> 00:23:25,159
maybe four or five

564
00:23:25,159 --> 00:23:26,390
studies that had
been done so

565
00:23:26,390 --> 00:23:30,410
far is a really
limited amount

566
00:23:30,410 --> 00:23:33,365
of research on this issue.

567
00:23:33,365 --> 00:23:35,420
But to the
limited research,

568
00:23:35,420 --> 00:23:37,040
what we expected to see

569
00:23:37,040 --> 00:23:39,590
is that the injection,

570
00:23:39,590 --> 00:23:41,900
you can practice this in

571
00:23:41,900 --> 00:23:44,330
most public
polarizations and in

572
00:23:44,330 --> 00:23:45,935
the public organizations

573
00:23:45,935 --> 00:23:47,585
leadership practices.

574
00:23:47,585 --> 00:23:49,819
The development
of evergreen,

575
00:23:49,819 --> 00:23:52,039
adaptable and
resilient leadership

576
00:23:52,039 --> 00:23:53,090
systems and

577
00:23:53,090 --> 00:23:55,789
collaborative organizational
structures could

578
00:23:55,789 --> 00:23:58,909
actually happen with
the infusion of

579
00:23:58,909 --> 00:24:00,695
systems thinking practices

580
00:24:00,695 --> 00:24:03,509
in their management
structure.

581
00:24:05,620 --> 00:24:11,240
So I wanted to
then see, well,

582
00:24:11,240 --> 00:24:13,310
how can the policymakers

583
00:24:13,310 --> 00:24:16,114
use system
thinking to model

584
00:24:16,114 --> 00:24:18,860
the impacts and resolve

585
00:24:18,860 --> 00:24:20,164
those wicked problems

586
00:24:20,164 --> 00:24:22,129
they were facing, right?

587
00:24:22,129 --> 00:24:25,264
This actually in
the being the,

588
00:24:25,264 --> 00:24:27,079
the research
questions that I

589
00:24:27,079 --> 00:24:29,885
had at the beginning
of my study.

590
00:24:29,885 --> 00:24:31,804
What were the
strengths and

591
00:24:31,804 --> 00:24:34,175
limitations of
such an approach?

592
00:24:34,175 --> 00:24:35,764
And what skills and

593
00:24:35,764 --> 00:24:38,854
competencies can
be used to improve

594
00:24:38,854 --> 00:24:41,585
organizational
and system change

595
00:24:41,585 --> 00:24:44,730
in public sector
organizations.

596
00:24:46,450 --> 00:24:48,799
You guys are all
systems folks.

597
00:24:48,799 --> 00:24:50,960
So you're probably
well aware of,

598
00:24:50,960 --> 00:24:52,579
of, of systems and

599
00:24:52,579 --> 00:24:54,665
how they interact
with one another.

600
00:24:54,665 --> 00:24:56,974
One of the things
that you have to do

601
00:24:56,974 --> 00:24:58,865
as a system scientists

602
00:24:58,865 --> 00:25:00,170
going into an
organization,

603
00:25:00,170 --> 00:25:02,135
especially a governmental
organization,

604
00:25:02,135 --> 00:25:05,089
is define with boundaries

605
00:25:05,089 --> 00:25:07,879
what system you're
trying to focus on.

606
00:25:07,879 --> 00:25:10,460
You also have
to be aware of

607
00:25:10,460 --> 00:25:13,789
what a sibling systems

608
00:25:13,789 --> 00:25:16,310
may be impacting
that system.

609
00:25:16,310 --> 00:25:22,020
This is basic systems
science knowledge.

610
00:25:23,680 --> 00:25:26,509
I mentioned earlier
about boundaries.

611
00:25:26,509 --> 00:25:28,220
So take one of the
things that you

612
00:25:28,220 --> 00:25:30,094
do is to define

613
00:25:30,094 --> 00:25:33,860
what boundary you have

614
00:25:33,860 --> 00:25:37,549
to draw for that
particular system day.

615
00:25:37,549 --> 00:25:40,729
You have to be sure

616
00:25:40,729 --> 00:25:42,259
to include a number

617
00:25:42,259 --> 00:25:43,700
of the stakeholder issues.

618
00:25:43,700 --> 00:25:45,949
And a lot of that
is the pre-work

619
00:25:45,949 --> 00:25:48,184
which is defining who
the stakeholder is.

620
00:25:48,184 --> 00:25:50,420
So in defining the issue,

621
00:25:50,420 --> 00:25:52,745
you define the
stakeholders and

622
00:25:52,745 --> 00:25:54,470
defining
stakeholders through

623
00:25:54,470 --> 00:25:56,345
discussion with them.

624
00:25:56,345 --> 00:25:58,909
You find out what
their boundaries are.

625
00:25:58,909 --> 00:26:01,129
And through that,
you can figure out

626
00:26:01,129 --> 00:26:02,569
what things are a value

627
00:26:02,569 --> 00:26:04,265
to each of the
stakeholders,

628
00:26:04,265 --> 00:26:06,095
then develop a collective

629
00:26:06,095 --> 00:26:08,585
value system to use.

630
00:26:08,585 --> 00:26:09,889
So you can further

631
00:26:09,889 --> 00:26:11,930
define the boundaries
of what should be

632
00:26:11,930 --> 00:26:14,750
included and what
should be excluded in

633
00:26:14,750 --> 00:26:16,520
the system that
you're talking

634
00:26:16,520 --> 00:26:20,220
about and the
issues that arise.

635
00:26:25,450 --> 00:26:29,795
One of the ways to
do that is by using

636
00:26:29,795 --> 00:26:32,929
these processes that are

637
00:26:32,929 --> 00:26:35,540
defined here in
the slide, okay?

638
00:26:35,540 --> 00:26:38,254
Who should benefit from

639
00:26:38,254 --> 00:26:40,879
the change that you're
trying to implement?

640
00:26:40,879 --> 00:26:42,815
What should be
the purpose?

641
00:26:42,815 --> 00:26:45,605
What should be the
measures of success?

642
00:26:45,605 --> 00:26:46,430
Okay?

643
00:26:46,430 --> 00:26:48,920
You want to ask

644
00:26:48,920 --> 00:26:51,994
questions that define
the motivation,

645
00:26:51,994 --> 00:26:53,854
the control,
the expertise,

646
00:26:53,854 --> 00:26:56,449
illegitimacy of the issue.

647
00:26:56,449 --> 00:26:58,700
So can better be
brought to lie.

648
00:26:58,700 --> 00:27:01,219
And it can be better saw.

649
00:27:01,219 --> 00:27:02,870
A lot of the times

650
00:27:02,870 --> 00:27:07,189
without understanding
of these issues,

651
00:27:07,189 --> 00:27:09,680
these policymakers
would, would

652
00:27:09,680 --> 00:27:12,109
end up being recursive
on themselves.

653
00:27:12,109 --> 00:27:14,029
And I actually
solving anything,

654
00:27:14,029 --> 00:27:16,010
but just putting it off to

655
00:27:16,010 --> 00:27:18,185
another day down
a line by solving

656
00:27:18,185 --> 00:27:21,065
whatever short-term
problem happened

657
00:27:21,065 --> 00:27:23,569
to occur within
their bailiwick.

658
00:27:23,569 --> 00:27:25,459
But by using systems

659
00:27:25,459 --> 00:27:28,655
thinking and using systems
thinking concepts.

660
00:27:28,655 --> 00:27:30,530
One, it gives people

661
00:27:30,530 --> 00:27:34,865
a common language to
this, to this tie,

662
00:27:34,865 --> 00:27:39,440
or defying work problems

663
00:27:39,440 --> 00:27:41,915
or issue that
they're solving. It.

664
00:27:41,915 --> 00:27:45,290
It helps establish
behavioral patterns

665
00:27:45,290 --> 00:27:46,520
of the system by

666
00:27:46,520 --> 00:27:48,410
seeing the whole
structure that

667
00:27:48,410 --> 00:27:49,910
underlies the
questions in which

668
00:27:49,910 --> 00:27:51,649
they were trying
to solve, okay?

669
00:27:51,649 --> 00:27:54,170
And more importantly, it

670
00:27:54,170 --> 00:27:58,610
gives policymakers
tools in

671
00:27:58,610 --> 00:27:59,840
which to solve
the problem,

672
00:27:59,840 --> 00:28:01,219
okay, so those tools

673
00:28:01,219 --> 00:28:04,999
are soft systems
methodology,

674
00:28:04,999 --> 00:28:06,289
boundary critique, which I

675
00:28:06,289 --> 00:28:07,954
talked a little
bit about before.

676
00:28:07,954 --> 00:28:10,130
Critical systems theory.

677
00:28:10,130 --> 00:28:13,309
The VSM,

678
00:28:13,309 --> 00:28:18,709
buy beers and
something that

679
00:28:18,709 --> 00:28:24,260
was brought up in the
research out of London.

680
00:28:24,260 --> 00:28:25,339
Somebody call the

681
00:28:25,339 --> 00:28:27,080
community Operations
Research,

682
00:28:27,080 --> 00:28:28,819
which is just Operations

683
00:28:28,819 --> 00:28:30,409
Research at a local level.

684
00:28:30,409 --> 00:28:31,805
Okay?

685
00:28:31,805 --> 00:28:34,565
Through wicked problem.

686
00:28:34,565 --> 00:28:37,310
Through using these tools,

687
00:28:37,310 --> 00:28:40,519
we could take the problem

688
00:28:40,519 --> 00:28:42,650
that they were trying
to address and

689
00:28:42,650 --> 00:28:45,709
re-conceptualize and
re-conceptualize it

690
00:28:45,709 --> 00:28:46,969
to a point where we

691
00:28:46,969 --> 00:28:48,634
could use one
of these tools.

692
00:28:48,634 --> 00:28:49,879
Okay?

693
00:28:49,879 --> 00:28:54,845
That was the, the role

694
00:28:54,845 --> 00:28:57,140
of system thinking in

695
00:28:57,140 --> 00:29:00,479
the resolution of the
wicked problem. Okay.

696
00:29:02,260 --> 00:29:06,994
So all of these I just
talked to you about,

697
00:29:06,994 --> 00:29:10,700
the use of these
particular models

698
00:29:10,700 --> 00:29:15,650
was coined to be
systems leadership.

699
00:29:15,650 --> 00:29:16,264
Okay?

700
00:29:16,264 --> 00:29:18,830
And systems
leadership practice

701
00:29:18,830 --> 00:29:22,294
was something that
grew out of that.

702
00:29:22,294 --> 00:29:24,140
There's a lot
of work being

703
00:29:24,140 --> 00:29:25,820
done right now about to

704
00:29:25,820 --> 00:29:35,245
some thinking in
in, in progress.

705
00:29:35,245 --> 00:29:38,290
And there's also a lot

706
00:29:38,290 --> 00:29:41,514
of work being done around
systems leadership.

707
00:29:41,514 --> 00:29:44,395
Systems leadership.

708
00:29:44,395 --> 00:29:47,319
It's a way to not only

709
00:29:47,319 --> 00:29:49,764
give tools to individuals,

710
00:29:49,764 --> 00:29:52,389
but it gives tools
to organizations.

711
00:29:52,389 --> 00:29:54,550
And most importantly, it

712
00:29:54,550 --> 00:29:57,325
allows stakeholders

713
00:29:57,325 --> 00:29:59,904
to have a societal
perspective.

714
00:29:59,904 --> 00:30:02,679
And the purpose of all of

715
00:30:02,679 --> 00:30:06,439
that is to achieve
those policy goals.

716
00:30:07,950 --> 00:30:10,630
You all probably
pretty familiar

717
00:30:10,630 --> 00:30:13,749
with the VSM model.

718
00:30:13,749 --> 00:30:16,065
It breaks up an
organization

719
00:30:16,065 --> 00:30:18,184
into the different levels

720
00:30:18,184 --> 00:30:19,564
of the organization.

721
00:30:19,564 --> 00:30:22,219
So you have the
first level,

722
00:30:22,219 --> 00:30:25,025
which is the
internal structure

723
00:30:25,025 --> 00:30:26,509
of the organization.

724
00:30:26,509 --> 00:30:28,849
Then the second level

725
00:30:28,849 --> 00:30:31,535
which talks about how that

726
00:30:31,535 --> 00:30:35,750
organizations levels
internally jive

727
00:30:35,750 --> 00:30:37,084
well with one another.

728
00:30:37,084 --> 00:30:40,535
And then the third is

729
00:30:40,535 --> 00:30:47,900
the management of that
particular management.

730
00:30:47,900 --> 00:30:49,325
The second level.

731
00:30:49,325 --> 00:30:51,155
And then the
fourth is they,

732
00:30:51,155 --> 00:30:52,729
the, the
management itself.

733
00:30:52,729 --> 00:30:54,439
How does that function?

734
00:30:54,439 --> 00:30:56,419
There's a
tremendous amount

735
00:30:56,419 --> 00:30:58,189
of work being done,

736
00:30:58,189 --> 00:31:02,929
or I already done in VSM.

737
00:31:02,929 --> 00:31:05,209
And you can
read more about

738
00:31:05,209 --> 00:31:06,830
that through we
along the work

739
00:31:06,830 --> 00:31:09,094
by beers and
other theorists

740
00:31:09,094 --> 00:31:11,765
along on that line.

741
00:31:11,765 --> 00:31:14,360
What are the tools?

742
00:31:14,360 --> 00:31:21,439
Typhoon via stem is
the rich picture.

743
00:31:21,439 --> 00:31:23,435
This is an example of,

744
00:31:23,435 --> 00:31:26,044
of management issues in

745
00:31:26,044 --> 00:31:27,829
Tasmania, New
Zealand, right?

746
00:31:27,829 --> 00:31:28,999
And what they did is they

747
00:31:28,999 --> 00:31:30,380
started off by
saying, well,

748
00:31:30,380 --> 00:31:34,909
if you can describe the
issue, draw it out.

749
00:31:34,909 --> 00:31:36,890
And and I've been

750
00:31:36,890 --> 00:31:38,389
very successful
with clients

751
00:31:38,389 --> 00:31:42,185
and in doing this
because they're able to,

752
00:31:42,185 --> 00:31:44,375
they able to as a group,

753
00:31:44,375 --> 00:31:47,374
picture the issue
that's before them.

754
00:31:47,374 --> 00:31:49,429
And if they can dry,

755
00:31:49,429 --> 00:31:50,929
then they can
then they really

756
00:31:50,929 --> 00:31:53,819
understand what
the issue is.

757
00:31:53,830 --> 00:31:57,360
Asahi example is

758
00:31:57,370 --> 00:31:59,810
the foster care system

759
00:31:59,810 --> 00:32:01,039
and Manchester, England.

760
00:32:01,039 --> 00:32:03,409
They too needed to

761
00:32:03,409 --> 00:32:06,724
just visualize what
the issue was.

762
00:32:06,724 --> 00:32:09,649
And then they can go
about addressing some of

763
00:32:09,649 --> 00:32:11,765
the issues that arose

764
00:32:11,765 --> 00:32:13,649
in the brainstorming
or the,

765
00:32:13,649 --> 00:32:16,070
the, the, the
development of

766
00:32:16,070 --> 00:32:19,470
the issue as the problem.

767
00:32:22,120 --> 00:32:27,349
The most tried and true
method is the soft

768
00:32:27,349 --> 00:32:30,859
mat take that allows

769
00:32:30,859 --> 00:32:33,785
people to map
the mass, ok.

770
00:32:33,785 --> 00:32:35,330
It allows them to identify

771
00:32:35,330 --> 00:32:36,860
the possible
transformations

772
00:32:36,860 --> 00:32:38,089
that different
people may want.

773
00:32:38,089 --> 00:32:39,905
And if they are
Catholics among them,

774
00:32:39,905 --> 00:32:41,975
then that allows
them to as a group,

775
00:32:41,975 --> 00:32:43,939
address the conflict so

776
00:32:43,939 --> 00:32:46,190
that they can come up
with a solution for

777
00:32:46,190 --> 00:32:48,590
that accomplished
by exploring

778
00:32:48,590 --> 00:32:51,110
what these mean to
different people.

779
00:32:51,110 --> 00:32:53,600
It gives you a better idea

780
00:32:53,600 --> 00:32:54,980
of what those
boundaries are.

781
00:32:54,980 --> 00:32:57,035
And you can very easily

782
00:32:57,035 --> 00:32:59,810
determine a
boundary so that

783
00:32:59,810 --> 00:33:03,360
people are not talking
past one another.

784
00:33:04,060 --> 00:33:07,040
Mapping the activities
that would be

785
00:33:07,040 --> 00:33:10,805
needed to make the
transformation a reality.

786
00:33:10,805 --> 00:33:12,665
People can see

787
00:33:12,665 --> 00:33:15,320
what the potential
pitfalls and,

788
00:33:15,320 --> 00:33:18,289
and, and concerns
might be.

789
00:33:18,289 --> 00:33:25,280
That the ability
to look at,

790
00:33:25,280 --> 00:33:26,810
look for combinations

791
00:33:26,810 --> 00:33:28,804
between the different
perspectives

792
00:33:28,804 --> 00:33:30,379
and agree on a desired

793
00:33:30,379 --> 00:33:32,914
and feasible
change, right?

794
00:33:32,914 --> 00:33:34,999
That process, the process

795
00:33:34,999 --> 00:33:38,180
from mapping to action,

796
00:33:38,180 --> 00:33:41,929
is what the soft
systems methodology

797
00:33:41,929 --> 00:33:44,040
is best at.

798
00:33:44,860 --> 00:33:48,200
So the wicked tell them
is something that's

799
00:33:48,200 --> 00:33:51,275
unique to public
agencies, okay?

800
00:33:51,275 --> 00:33:54,410
But system size allows

801
00:33:54,410 --> 00:33:57,470
them to take that wicked
problem and explore

802
00:33:57,470 --> 00:33:58,730
the boundaries
as I've just

803
00:33:58,730 --> 00:34:02,180
discussed by including
both the stakeholders

804
00:34:02,180 --> 00:34:04,760
and those issues that

805
00:34:04,760 --> 00:34:06,379
arise when trying to

806
00:34:06,379 --> 00:34:08,465
address that with
your problem.

807
00:34:08,465 --> 00:34:11,195
If it's run properly,

808
00:34:11,195 --> 00:34:13,250
that process will elicit

809
00:34:13,250 --> 00:34:16,669
values and processes
of conflict and

810
00:34:16,669 --> 00:34:19,955
marginalization upfront
at the beginning

811
00:34:19,955 --> 00:34:22,369
and allow stakeholders
to revisit

812
00:34:22,369 --> 00:34:23,840
the boundaries of their

813
00:34:23,840 --> 00:34:27,050
arbitrarily placed
or maybe firmly

814
00:34:27,050 --> 00:34:28,189
held in place
because their

815
00:34:28,189 --> 00:34:30,394
values in the work

816
00:34:30,394 --> 00:34:32,180
when new aspects of with

817
00:34:32,180 --> 00:34:34,985
the Pogues present
themselves, right?

818
00:34:34,985 --> 00:34:39,304
It allows them to draw
upon a mix of methods,

819
00:34:39,304 --> 00:34:41,360
as I've described
earlier from

820
00:34:41,360 --> 00:34:43,654
across the systems
approaches.

821
00:34:43,654 --> 00:34:45,559
And those are
the biophysical

822
00:34:45,559 --> 00:34:47,090
and social science
approaches.

823
00:34:47,090 --> 00:34:49,100
I'm a social scientist
thought that

824
00:34:49,100 --> 00:34:50,180
that's why those both come

825
00:34:50,180 --> 00:34:51,890
up every now and then.

826
00:34:51,890 --> 00:34:56,544
To be humorous,
fun as possible.

827
00:34:56,544 --> 00:34:59,504
The pidgins of a
wicked problem.

828
00:34:59,504 --> 00:35:02,009
And lastly, if you have

829
00:35:02,009 --> 00:35:04,904
no previous or
limited experience,

830
00:35:04,904 --> 00:35:06,659
start from where you are.

831
00:35:06,659 --> 00:35:09,960
I try new methods
when the need

832
00:35:09,960 --> 00:35:12,749
arises and build capacity

833
00:35:12,749 --> 00:35:14,859
for the longer term.

834
00:35:18,560 --> 00:35:22,035
So this is just a picture

835
00:35:22,035 --> 00:35:23,520
of a wicked problem.

836
00:35:23,520 --> 00:35:26,310
When I tried to explain
hide, I say, well,

837
00:35:26,310 --> 00:35:28,590
a wicked problem is
such that you're

838
00:35:28,590 --> 00:35:31,050
trying to figure out
what the elephant is.

839
00:35:31,050 --> 00:35:32,519
Probably acinus.

840
00:35:32,519 --> 00:35:34,600
This in various
iterations or not.

841
00:35:34,600 --> 00:35:37,040
Each, each individual has

842
00:35:37,040 --> 00:35:38,420
a limited view of

843
00:35:38,420 --> 00:35:40,564
what that elephant
looks like.

844
00:35:40,564 --> 00:35:42,590
One person's
describing the trunk,

845
00:35:42,590 --> 00:35:43,580
and another person is

846
00:35:43,580 --> 00:35:45,365
describing the
elephant tusks.

847
00:35:45,365 --> 00:35:47,029
And they have a
very clear picture

848
00:35:47,029 --> 00:35:48,065
of what that is,

849
00:35:48,065 --> 00:35:49,219
but none of them see

850
00:35:49,219 --> 00:35:53,420
the whole loan
they're taking.

851
00:35:53,420 --> 00:35:57,480
Mac users allow you
to see the whole LO.

852
00:36:09,790 --> 00:36:12,349
With that, I would

853
00:36:12,349 --> 00:36:13,895
like to take
your questions.

854
00:36:13,895 --> 00:36:15,110
Thank you so much
for allowing

855
00:36:15,110 --> 00:36:16,940
me to present
this morning.

856
00:36:16,940 --> 00:36:23,089
I think we're wondering

857
00:36:23,089 --> 00:36:24,269
why

858
00:36:33,310 --> 00:36:34,909
they didn't eater.

859
00:36:34,909 --> 00:36:36,200
I got microcredit.

860
00:36:36,200 --> 00:36:37,620
Perfect.

861
00:36:38,530 --> 00:36:41,009
That's it.

862
00:36:43,510 --> 00:36:50,969
Yes. Let's see.

863
00:36:57,520 --> 00:37:01,055
Oh, that was obvious.

864
00:37:01,055 --> 00:37:02,750
We're supposed to
be using the room.

865
00:37:02,750 --> 00:37:05,389
My can you all

866
00:37:05,389 --> 00:37:07,745
hear me All right.
I gave you yeah.

867
00:37:07,745 --> 00:37:08,014
Yeah.

868
00:37:08,014 --> 00:37:09,709
I accidentally
thought I had driven

869
00:37:09,709 --> 00:37:10,790
by local might know

870
00:37:10,790 --> 00:37:11,809
by now. Just
might move up.

871
00:37:11,809 --> 00:37:12,649
Sorry about that.

872
00:37:12,649 --> 00:37:14,885
Um, I,

873
00:37:14,885 --> 00:37:16,444
I think we're a small
enough group that

874
00:37:16,444 --> 00:37:18,529
people can just
if you'd like to

875
00:37:18,529 --> 00:37:20,659
raise your hand on that
down at the bottom,

876
00:37:20,659 --> 00:37:22,730
there's something
called reactions.

877
00:37:22,730 --> 00:37:25,340
And if you, there's
a right above that,

878
00:37:25,340 --> 00:37:26,809
there's just a big broad

879
00:37:26,809 --> 00:37:28,910
horizontal why this
has raised hand.

880
00:37:28,910 --> 00:37:30,920
And then I can
call on you or

881
00:37:30,920 --> 00:37:33,725
and asked you to proceed.

882
00:37:33,725 --> 00:37:35,945
So if anybody would
like to do that,

883
00:37:35,945 --> 00:37:37,280
I do have a question

884
00:37:37,280 --> 00:37:39,995
or maybe kind
of a hardball.

885
00:37:39,995 --> 00:37:43,580
I don't want to be an
unfriendly person year,

886
00:37:43,580 --> 00:37:46,459
but I like the
challenge, no problem.

887
00:37:46,459 --> 00:37:47,075
Okay.

888
00:37:47,075 --> 00:37:48,980
So almost everything
you've talked about is

889
00:37:48,980 --> 00:37:51,785
very qualitative and
kind of squishy.

890
00:37:51,785 --> 00:37:53,989
And over the almost

891
00:37:53,989 --> 00:37:55,910
50 years association
I've had is

892
00:37:55,910 --> 00:37:58,610
just a scientist constantly
been this tension

893
00:37:58,610 --> 00:38:00,529
between what some people

894
00:38:00,529 --> 00:38:01,804
would call the software,

895
00:38:01,804 --> 00:38:03,724
more qualitative aspects
of system science.

896
00:38:03,724 --> 00:38:04,610
No doubts that they're

897
00:38:04,610 --> 00:38:05,885
valuable and important.

898
00:38:05,885 --> 00:38:07,100
But to what
degree are they

899
00:38:07,100 --> 00:38:08,795
sufficient on their own

900
00:38:08,795 --> 00:38:12,035
without some of
the more harder,

901
00:38:12,035 --> 00:38:14,240
more quantitative,

902
00:38:14,240 --> 00:38:16,340
analytical aspects

903
00:38:16,340 --> 00:38:18,049
of the tools that
are available.

904
00:38:18,049 --> 00:38:19,984
And how far do you

905
00:38:19,984 --> 00:38:22,220
take these ideas that
you're talking about?

906
00:38:22,220 --> 00:38:24,469
Well, the deeper
dive into that

907
00:38:24,469 --> 00:38:27,930
more quantitative
aspects of systems.

908
00:38:28,180 --> 00:38:30,920
Even though it was
a tension that I

909
00:38:30,920 --> 00:38:36,410
had with my
committee actually,

910
00:38:36,410 --> 00:38:38,329
because here I was

911
00:38:38,329 --> 00:38:40,204
I I have a master's
in public policy.

912
00:38:40,204 --> 00:38:41,014
You know, all of that.

913
00:38:41,014 --> 00:38:43,114
It's hard quant, right?

914
00:38:43,114 --> 00:38:45,500
Just, just I, and
so I come from

915
00:38:45,500 --> 00:38:46,850
a quantitative economics

916
00:38:46,850 --> 00:38:48,080
was my undergrad, right?

917
00:38:48,080 --> 00:38:49,940
So a couple of
quantitative perspective

918
00:38:49,940 --> 00:38:51,739
and I couldn't figure
out, you know,

919
00:38:51,739 --> 00:38:53,239
how to address

920
00:38:53,239 --> 00:38:57,470
the quantitative
systems approaches

921
00:38:57,470 --> 00:39:00,319
or the tools for
public policy.

922
00:39:00,319 --> 00:39:02,209
Because public policy not

923
00:39:02,209 --> 00:39:03,785
necessarily quantitative,

924
00:39:03,785 --> 00:39:05,330
quantitative, right?

925
00:39:05,330 --> 00:39:07,249
So that was the
challenge that I had.

926
00:39:07,249 --> 00:39:09,560
What I found in
the research was

927
00:39:09,560 --> 00:39:13,324
that in order to apply

928
00:39:13,324 --> 00:39:16,715
systems science
techniques to

929
00:39:16,715 --> 00:39:18,695
the practice of
public policy,

930
00:39:18,695 --> 00:39:20,075
it wasn't quantitated.

931
00:39:20,075 --> 00:39:21,905
It was qualitative, right?

932
00:39:21,905 --> 00:39:25,430
So a number of things
that I was looking for,

933
00:39:25,430 --> 00:39:28,879
we're trying to find
and want actually in

934
00:39:28,879 --> 00:39:32,045
neither theorists

935
00:39:32,045 --> 00:39:33,755
and policymakers
were using,

936
00:39:33,755 --> 00:39:34,820
were these tools that

937
00:39:34,820 --> 00:39:36,020
I laid out today, right.

938
00:39:36,020 --> 00:39:37,459
So it wasn't it
wasn't that in

939
00:39:37,459 --> 00:39:39,559
my committee said
that simply wasn't

940
00:39:39,559 --> 00:39:41,539
necessary to
try and make it

941
00:39:41,539 --> 00:39:44,059
quantitative if
it wasn't, right.

942
00:39:44,059 --> 00:39:46,444
My dissertation
came out to be

943
00:39:46,444 --> 00:39:50,914
only an explanation of

944
00:39:50,914 --> 00:39:52,355
the types of things

945
00:39:52,355 --> 00:39:54,289
that those policymakers
could use it.

946
00:39:54,289 --> 00:39:55,760
Because again,
remember, my

947
00:39:55,760 --> 00:39:56,930
research was based on

948
00:39:56,930 --> 00:39:58,580
developing a
training program

949
00:39:58,580 --> 00:40:00,800
for policymakers and
decision makers.

950
00:40:00,800 --> 00:40:02,809
Okay. I want them all to

951
00:40:02,809 --> 00:40:05,750
have that child-like
innocence where they

952
00:40:05,750 --> 00:40:08,150
can apply a
systems approach

953
00:40:08,150 --> 00:40:09,109
just as easy as it

954
00:40:09,109 --> 00:40:10,775
can apply another
approach.

955
00:40:10,775 --> 00:40:12,500
And that was my
goal, right?

956
00:40:12,500 --> 00:40:14,629
So instead of at
the beginning,

957
00:40:14,629 --> 00:40:15,980
I was looking for
that quantity,

958
00:40:15,980 --> 00:40:18,859
quantitative
aspect or age.

959
00:40:18,859 --> 00:40:21,755
But it didn't occur.

960
00:40:21,755 --> 00:40:23,209
It didn't need to occur.

961
00:40:23,209 --> 00:40:26,355
Right? That wasn't
necessary to, to have.

962
00:40:26,355 --> 00:40:28,689
So it's the homeless
problem now

963
00:40:28,689 --> 00:40:33,610
solve for c, That's
the problem.

964
00:40:33,610 --> 00:40:34,615
What's it going to take?

965
00:40:34,615 --> 00:40:35,769
Cool my eyes not going to

966
00:40:35,769 --> 00:40:37,254
solve the whole problem.

967
00:40:37,254 --> 00:40:38,620
We're going to have
to make some tough

968
00:40:38,620 --> 00:40:40,600
decisions and we're
going to have to get

969
00:40:40,600 --> 00:40:43,269
human real significant
behavioral change

970
00:40:43,269 --> 00:40:46,315
across broad spectrums
of our population.

971
00:40:46,315 --> 00:40:48,024
How are re going
to do that?

972
00:40:48,024 --> 00:40:50,380
How are we going
to do it without?

973
00:40:50,380 --> 00:40:51,190
I don't think so.

974
00:40:51,190 --> 00:40:52,570
So I I guess my problem

975
00:40:52,570 --> 00:40:53,740
is this all sounds great.

976
00:40:53,740 --> 00:40:55,870
I appreciate the
presentation very much,

977
00:40:55,870 --> 00:40:58,840
but it leaves
me yearning for

978
00:40:58,840 --> 00:41:03,250
more concrete
evidence, I guess, uh,

979
00:41:03,250 --> 00:41:04,525
being able to move

980
00:41:04,525 --> 00:41:07,119
forward in solution
of the problem,

981
00:41:07,119 --> 00:41:13,865
just articulating lori
in a systems way.

982
00:41:13,865 --> 00:41:17,779
You must have been in
my in my my defense

983
00:41:17,779 --> 00:41:22,190
because that's

984
00:41:22,190 --> 00:41:24,335
exactly what they
said. There's awake.

985
00:41:24,335 --> 00:41:25,550
I appreciate.

986
00:41:25,550 --> 00:41:26,840
I like what you what you

987
00:41:26,840 --> 00:41:28,579
got there, but, you know.

988
00:41:28,579 --> 00:41:30,049
What about the mean

989
00:41:30,049 --> 00:41:31,070
of it? What
does this mean?

990
00:41:31,070 --> 00:41:33,410
Why would they
want answered

991
00:41:33,410 --> 00:41:36,754
I had for them was
this is all new.

992
00:41:36,754 --> 00:41:38,944
It's been about maybe

993
00:41:38,944 --> 00:41:40,414
two or three years since.

994
00:41:40,414 --> 00:41:42,740
They, they really
started to apply

995
00:41:42,740 --> 00:41:45,140
systems to
wicked problems.

996
00:41:45,140 --> 00:41:48,199
Okay, So the research
wasn't out yet.

997
00:41:48,199 --> 00:41:52,040
Um, I, I, I just
started getting books,

998
00:41:52,040 --> 00:41:53,854
thinking in every Das kann

999
00:41:53,854 --> 00:41:55,759
and managing
public excuse,

1000
00:41:55,759 --> 00:41:58,145
I just started to
get the literature

1001
00:41:58,145 --> 00:42:00,860
around the types of things

1002
00:42:00,860 --> 00:42:03,079
that will be needed
to applied systems

1003
00:42:03,079 --> 00:42:06,064
thinking to those
real world problems.

1004
00:42:06,064 --> 00:42:07,910
So we weren't just
talking about

1005
00:42:07,910 --> 00:42:09,860
theoretical and
pie in the sky

1006
00:42:09,860 --> 00:42:12,050
sort of ideas
and concepts.

1007
00:42:12,050 --> 00:42:13,969
So you'll wait
for my next book.

1008
00:42:13,969 --> 00:42:16,789
You'll see tons
of examples about

1009
00:42:16,789 --> 00:42:21,900
how we apply systems
thinking to move home.

1010
00:42:22,420 --> 00:42:24,809
Reference.

1011
00:42:27,940 --> 00:42:30,409
I say on it from net.

1012
00:42:30,409 --> 00:42:32,234
You want to say
that verbally?

1013
00:42:32,234 --> 00:42:33,099
That's okay.

1014
00:42:33,099 --> 00:42:38,245
We want daylight
explaining.

1015
00:42:38,245 --> 00:42:41,020
I am definitely
appreciative. I share.

1016
00:42:41,020 --> 00:42:42,700
I think Wayne, your your

1017
00:42:42,700 --> 00:42:44,620
thought that it is always

1018
00:42:44,620 --> 00:42:46,405
necessary to sort
of bring to bear

1019
00:42:46,405 --> 00:42:48,099
the sophisticated
tools that

1020
00:42:48,099 --> 00:42:49,705
have been developed
in this field.

1021
00:42:49,705 --> 00:42:51,490
But I really appreciate
Roderick your

1022
00:42:51,490 --> 00:42:53,484
contribution here
that, you know,

1023
00:42:53,484 --> 00:42:55,885
for me one of the most
significant questions

1024
00:42:55,885 --> 00:42:57,070
about how do

1025
00:42:57,070 --> 00:42:58,209
we actually get
the rubber hit

1026
00:42:58,209 --> 00:43:00,955
the road is
increasing adoption.

1027
00:43:00,955 --> 00:43:04,089
We renew, removing
barriers to buy and of

1028
00:43:04,089 --> 00:43:05,770
these methods that

1029
00:43:05,770 --> 00:43:07,029
happens at the
software level,

1030
00:43:07,029 --> 00:43:08,485
that happens if
the squishy level

1031
00:43:08,485 --> 00:43:09,699
that happens
at the systems

1032
00:43:09,699 --> 00:43:11,305
mapping level around

1033
00:43:11,305 --> 00:43:12,730
the system, that's omega.

1034
00:43:12,730 --> 00:43:14,624
It's a made up question
almost events.

1035
00:43:14,624 --> 00:43:15,705
I'm really excited.

1036
00:43:15,705 --> 00:43:17,824
Rigid institution
because of that.

1037
00:43:17,824 --> 00:43:20,330
Well, thank you. That's
exactly right now.

1038
00:43:20,330 --> 00:43:21,770
I'm I'm doing a
lot of work with

1039
00:43:21,770 --> 00:43:23,810
Derek and Laura
Cabrera who are

1040
00:43:23,810 --> 00:43:28,639
trying to develop an
educational platform

1041
00:43:28,639 --> 00:43:30,395
to teach systems thinking

1042
00:43:30,395 --> 00:43:33,169
to the everyday
person, right?

1043
00:43:33,169 --> 00:43:35,360
So if it can be what

1044
00:43:35,360 --> 00:43:38,394
down because I'm
like you, I,

1045
00:43:38,394 --> 00:43:39,995
I'm happy to steady

1046
00:43:39,995 --> 00:43:44,040
the hard core
system science,

1047
00:43:44,470 --> 00:43:47,450
theories and methods,
but I really

1048
00:43:47,450 --> 00:43:48,290
wanted to see what was

1049
00:43:48,290 --> 00:43:49,804
a practical use, right?

1050
00:43:49,804 --> 00:43:52,279
What am I once did the
honorable as I spent

1051
00:43:52,279 --> 00:43:53,330
a lot of time listening

1052
00:43:53,330 --> 00:43:55,504
to a presentation about

1053
00:43:55,504 --> 00:43:57,649
Things that were
so esoteric,

1054
00:43:57,649 --> 00:43:59,330
they were beyond
my description.

1055
00:43:59,330 --> 00:44:01,609
I'm a practical
policy person wears a

1056
00:44:01,609 --> 00:44:02,870
practical how do I

1057
00:44:02,870 --> 00:44:04,789
apply this and what
does this mean?

1058
00:44:04,789 --> 00:44:08,359
So the reality
is that aspect

1059
00:44:08,359 --> 00:44:09,919
of system science is

1060
00:44:09,919 --> 00:44:11,959
just beginning,
it's just starting.

1061
00:44:11,959 --> 00:44:13,880
And so what was nice for

1062
00:44:13,880 --> 00:44:15,919
me to be a
researcher is I have

1063
00:44:15,919 --> 00:44:17,389
the opportunity
to really get

1064
00:44:17,389 --> 00:44:19,399
into ground floor
that I really had

1065
00:44:19,399 --> 00:44:21,919
the opportunity
to start doing

1066
00:44:21,919 --> 00:44:24,905
those kinds of things
that will bring

1067
00:44:24,905 --> 00:44:27,109
systems thinking
and systems

1068
00:44:27,109 --> 00:44:28,849
thinking in progress
and thesis of

1069
00:44:28,849 --> 00:44:35,629
sticking into the common
everyday vernacular

1070
00:44:35,629 --> 00:44:37,430
so people could
use it, right?

1071
00:44:37,430 --> 00:44:40,940
So that was a challenge
that was for me then.

1072
00:44:40,940 --> 00:44:44,494
And I think as an educator
is performing now.

1073
00:44:44,494 --> 00:44:47,690
Already. You like to
comment or a question?

1074
00:44:47,690 --> 00:44:49,849
Yeah, I'm I'm not

1075
00:44:49,849 --> 00:44:54,350
really sure that
this is all new.

1076
00:44:54,350 --> 00:44:56,450
I mean, I've been
in this field

1077
00:44:56,450 --> 00:44:57,829
for a long time.

1078
00:44:57,829 --> 00:45:01,684
And this sounds
very, very familiar.

1079
00:45:01,684 --> 00:45:05,495
And so 11 particular

1080
00:45:05,495 --> 00:45:07,879
school of thought
that is older,

1081
00:45:07,879 --> 00:45:10,325
that I don't
think Roderick,

1082
00:45:10,325 --> 00:45:11,840
you mentioned the o,

1083
00:45:11,840 --> 00:45:13,790
you may have included
it in one of

1084
00:45:13,790 --> 00:45:16,340
the other approaches
that you talked

1085
00:45:16,340 --> 00:45:19,445
about is Russ Ackoff.

1086
00:45:19,445 --> 00:45:22,189
I caught a fuse to gather

1087
00:45:22,189 --> 00:45:24,950
or stakeholders
together in

1088
00:45:24,950 --> 00:45:27,650
group meetings where all

1089
00:45:27,650 --> 00:45:29,914
were issues of values

1090
00:45:29,914 --> 00:45:32,224
and conceptual models were

1091
00:45:32,224 --> 00:45:35,765
all made explicit
than they would.

1092
00:45:35,765 --> 00:45:37,219
They would produce these

1093
00:45:37,219 --> 00:45:38,780
causal loop diagrams,

1094
00:45:38,780 --> 00:45:40,190
these graphical models,

1095
00:45:40,190 --> 00:45:44,390
these picture of what
the problem was.

1096
00:45:44,390 --> 00:45:47,449
And I, I would
swear that I

1097
00:45:47,449 --> 00:45:50,719
cough was doing
precisely the kinds

1098
00:45:50,719 --> 00:45:52,519
of things that you're
talking about.

1099
00:45:52,519 --> 00:45:55,009
And that was a long,
long time ago.

1100
00:45:55,009 --> 00:45:56,734
And I think this,

1101
00:45:56,734 --> 00:46:00,559
the wheel is continually
being reinvented.

1102
00:46:00,559 --> 00:46:02,810
It's, you know,
when in fact,

1103
00:46:02,810 --> 00:46:04,399
the very notion of

1104
00:46:04,399 --> 00:46:07,070
wicked problems is
a very old notion.

1105
00:46:07,070 --> 00:46:09,185
I just googled
it and I think,

1106
00:46:09,185 --> 00:46:11,119
I think it was
somebody came

1107
00:46:11,119 --> 00:46:13,595
up with it in the
seventies so,

1108
00:46:13,595 --> 00:46:16,024
and unsure of
people talked about

1109
00:46:16,024 --> 00:46:18,170
systems approaches to

1110
00:46:18,170 --> 00:46:20,614
really complex problems.

1111
00:46:20,614 --> 00:46:23,360
This is, this isn't

1112
00:46:23,360 --> 00:46:25,219
something that's
happening only

1113
00:46:25,219 --> 00:46:26,360
in the last
couple of years.

1114
00:46:26,360 --> 00:46:28,639
No, this is
this has always

1115
00:46:28,639 --> 00:46:32,135
been part of the
systems tradition.

1116
00:46:32,135 --> 00:46:34,340
You're absolutely correct.

1117
00:46:34,340 --> 00:46:37,439
We're talking
about Rob Roth.

1118
00:46:38,260 --> 00:46:40,850
Excuse me now, but you're

1119
00:46:40,850 --> 00:46:43,099
a wicked problems
was in 1957,

1120
00:46:43,099 --> 00:46:44,150
I believe the
wealth around

1121
00:46:44,150 --> 00:46:45,394
and they find that right.

1122
00:46:45,394 --> 00:46:46,699
So yes, we're talking

1123
00:46:46,699 --> 00:46:49,250
about those, these things.

1124
00:46:49,250 --> 00:46:51,950
I'm talking to you all
about these things in

1125
00:46:51,950 --> 00:46:53,720
a vernacular that
you can understand

1126
00:46:53,720 --> 00:46:55,775
it because your
systems people, right?

1127
00:46:55,775 --> 00:46:58,279
But the policymakers
and decision makers

1128
00:46:58,279 --> 00:47:00,784
who I was trying
to address, Okay.

1129
00:47:00,784 --> 00:47:02,509
Don't it's new
them. All right.

1130
00:47:02,509 --> 00:47:03,830
So I come and
I said to you

1131
00:47:03,830 --> 00:47:05,524
that these are all new

1132
00:47:05,524 --> 00:47:09,259
and exciting and, and
novel approaches.

1133
00:47:09,259 --> 00:47:11,659
There are novel approaches
to the, to the,

1134
00:47:11,659 --> 00:47:13,445
to the particular audience

1135
00:47:13,445 --> 00:47:14,960
that I was trying
to address.

1136
00:47:14,960 --> 00:47:17,540
Okay. If I develop
a training platform

1137
00:47:17,540 --> 00:47:21,094
for elected and
appointed leaders,

1138
00:47:21,094 --> 00:47:22,940
go in and I say, Okay,
how many of you have

1139
00:47:22,940 --> 00:47:24,230
systems thinking
knowledge,

1140
00:47:24,230 --> 00:47:26,165
system science knowledge.

1141
00:47:26,165 --> 00:47:28,520
I would get big
blank responses.

1142
00:47:28,520 --> 00:47:31,590
Okay? And so I, I,

1143
00:47:31,840 --> 00:47:34,550
I started the dissertation

1144
00:47:34,550 --> 00:47:36,949
with that idea
in mind that

1145
00:47:36,949 --> 00:47:39,590
although there were
these processes

1146
00:47:39,590 --> 00:47:41,674
and methods that
were story,

1147
00:47:41,674 --> 00:47:43,309
okay, I agree
with you that

1148
00:47:43,309 --> 00:47:45,874
they've been around
for quite awhile.

1149
00:47:45,874 --> 00:47:48,395
The newness is
applying them

1150
00:47:48,395 --> 00:47:53,224
to public policy related
wicked problems.

1151
00:47:53,224 --> 00:47:57,664
At the examples you gave,

1152
00:47:57,664 --> 00:47:59,179
which was very interesting

1153
00:47:59,179 --> 00:48:01,220
was the homelessness.

1154
00:48:01,220 --> 00:48:03,335
Homeless Example, a house,

1155
00:48:03,335 --> 00:48:05,029
house Les Mis example.

1156
00:48:05,029 --> 00:48:07,759
Homes where, where,
you know, when,

1157
00:48:07,759 --> 00:48:11,209
when some community
developed, you know,

1158
00:48:11,209 --> 00:48:13,730
enlightened
policies that gave

1159
00:48:13,730 --> 00:48:16,399
resources to people that

1160
00:48:16,399 --> 00:48:18,920
attracted more people to

1161
00:48:18,920 --> 00:48:20,270
come into that area

1162
00:48:20,270 --> 00:48:21,769
and just increase
the problem.

1163
00:48:21,769 --> 00:48:22,340
That's a,

1164
00:48:22,340 --> 00:48:25,984
that's a very
interesting example of,

1165
00:48:25,984 --> 00:48:28,805
of, of, of nano
systems thinking.

1166
00:48:28,805 --> 00:48:31,085
But I don't know if
you're aware of the fact

1167
00:48:31,085 --> 00:48:33,529
that that far or J far

1168
00:48:33,529 --> 00:48:36,080
as to develop systems
dynamic models

1169
00:48:36,080 --> 00:48:39,934
use actually the
same example

1170
00:48:39,934 --> 00:48:41,749
in a book on Urban.

1171
00:48:41,749 --> 00:48:43,550
Not maybe not about
homelessness,

1172
00:48:43,550 --> 00:48:46,339
but I think the
same kind of

1173
00:48:46,339 --> 00:48:49,700
dynamic in his book
on urban dynamics.

1174
00:48:49,700 --> 00:48:52,565
And he testify to is,

1175
00:48:52,565 --> 00:48:53,944
I think there's some

1176
00:48:53,944 --> 00:48:56,270
congressional committee on

1177
00:48:56,270 --> 00:49:00,125
using systems modeling
for public policy.

1178
00:49:00,125 --> 00:49:02,720
Wow, So all that
stuff has, I mean,

1179
00:49:02,720 --> 00:49:04,204
I think you're right that

1180
00:49:04,204 --> 00:49:06,469
contemporary policymakers

1181
00:49:06,469 --> 00:49:08,585
are ignorant about
these methods.

1182
00:49:08,585 --> 00:49:09,739
Or they, you know,

1183
00:49:09,739 --> 00:49:10,789
they never learned about

1184
00:49:10,789 --> 00:49:12,110
then they forgot
about them.

1185
00:49:12,110 --> 00:49:14,599
But there's a whole
long history.

1186
00:49:14,599 --> 00:49:16,760
There used to be me.

1187
00:49:16,760 --> 00:49:19,400
I don't know what the
administration was.

1188
00:49:19,400 --> 00:49:22,414
There was an Office of
Technology Assessment.

1189
00:49:22,414 --> 00:49:25,774
Mm-hm. You know, and
that disappeared.

1190
00:49:25,774 --> 00:49:28,760
But those people were
very systems people.

1191
00:49:28,760 --> 00:49:30,304
And one of the,

1192
00:49:30,304 --> 00:49:33,200
what our founder of
Citizen Science Program,

1193
00:49:33,200 --> 00:49:35,945
how in stone was very
involved in that.

1194
00:49:35,945 --> 00:49:38,899
His journal, technological
forecasting as

1195
00:49:38,899 --> 00:49:41,195
social change
has been very

1196
00:49:41,195 --> 00:49:43,909
active in this
area of policy.

1197
00:49:43,909 --> 00:49:46,174
So the problem is

1198
00:49:46,174 --> 00:49:48,469
that these ideas and

1199
00:49:48,469 --> 00:49:49,460
these methods have been

1200
00:49:49,460 --> 00:49:50,629
around for a long time,

1201
00:49:50,629 --> 00:49:53,195
but people are just not
educated about them.

1202
00:49:53,195 --> 00:49:55,039
People, or people
forget about that.

1203
00:49:55,039 --> 00:49:56,359
Well, they never
learned about them.

1204
00:49:56,359 --> 00:49:58,985
So I think it's great
that you're bringing

1205
00:49:58,985 --> 00:50:00,710
these ideas and methods to

1206
00:50:00,710 --> 00:50:02,959
people who are
ignorant about them,

1207
00:50:02,959 --> 00:50:04,549
but, but they haven't

1208
00:50:04,549 --> 00:50:06,514
been around for
a long time.

1209
00:50:06,514 --> 00:50:08,059
We'll see I think
that's part of

1210
00:50:08,059 --> 00:50:09,680
my challenge in
my chart, right?

1211
00:50:09,680 --> 00:50:11,870
Hey, if you take
those processes that

1212
00:50:11,870 --> 00:50:15,950
our story and have a
great history behind

1213
00:50:15,950 --> 00:50:18,830
them and backed up
with a number of

1214
00:50:18,830 --> 00:50:22,489
theories and bring them to

1215
00:50:22,489 --> 00:50:24,349
those policymakers
and decision makers

1216
00:50:24,349 --> 00:50:25,370
who have not had benefit

1217
00:50:25,370 --> 00:50:26,959
of these kind of

1218
00:50:26,959 --> 00:50:28,279
processes as they apply

1219
00:50:28,279 --> 00:50:29,810
to public policy
processes.

1220
00:50:29,810 --> 00:50:33,140
It may very well be
that they have tried it

1221
00:50:33,140 --> 00:50:34,760
before and then went

1222
00:50:34,760 --> 00:50:36,425
back to their old way
of thinking, right?

1223
00:50:36,425 --> 00:50:38,449
So when I'm talking
about a sea change in

1224
00:50:38,449 --> 00:50:39,650
the way that

1225
00:50:39,650 --> 00:50:42,455
policymakers think
about problems.

1226
00:50:42,455 --> 00:50:44,465
Hey, there may have been

1227
00:50:44,465 --> 00:50:46,460
inroad to that in
the beginning,

1228
00:50:46,460 --> 00:50:48,170
but my experience and

1229
00:50:48,170 --> 00:50:50,300
my research has told

1230
00:50:50,300 --> 00:50:52,864
me that it's not
a sustainable,

1231
00:50:52,864 --> 00:50:57,860
evergreen kind
of intervention

1232
00:50:57,860 --> 00:50:59,255
and it should be, okay.

1233
00:50:59,255 --> 00:51:02,330
I tend to be those systems

1234
00:51:02,330 --> 00:51:03,859
thinking is the way that

1235
00:51:03,859 --> 00:51:05,510
we solve these
wicked problems.

1236
00:51:05,510 --> 00:51:07,310
They have to be, it has to

1237
00:51:07,310 --> 00:51:09,665
be thought of in
that holistic way.

1238
00:51:09,665 --> 00:51:11,929
But again, I think like
most system fingers

1239
00:51:11,929 --> 00:51:13,265
being victor's,

1240
00:51:13,265 --> 00:51:14,929
are coming with that level

1241
00:51:14,929 --> 00:51:17,434
of approach, right?

1242
00:51:17,434 --> 00:51:21,409
They come with that.
And so I find a lot of

1243
00:51:21,409 --> 00:51:23,029
silver and policies
are going to be

1244
00:51:23,029 --> 00:51:24,049
the only system
that you're

1245
00:51:24,049 --> 00:51:25,639
in the room, Right?

1246
00:51:25,639 --> 00:51:27,125
And that's really
tough when

1247
00:51:27,125 --> 00:51:28,700
someone's face
with a real,

1248
00:51:28,700 --> 00:51:30,019
a real pressing

1249
00:51:30,019 --> 00:51:31,595
problems they're
trying to solve.

1250
00:51:31,595 --> 00:51:32,674
And you're telling
them what you need to

1251
00:51:32,674 --> 00:51:34,709
change the way you think.

1252
00:51:36,310 --> 00:51:38,600
Several people
have questions,

1253
00:51:38,600 --> 00:51:39,844
why don't we
take a few more?

1254
00:51:39,844 --> 00:51:41,209
Why don't you go ahead
and ask your question,

1255
00:51:41,209 --> 00:51:43,099
make it Got it. Thanks.

1256
00:51:43,099 --> 00:51:44,059
I'll try anyway.

1257
00:51:44,059 --> 00:51:45,560
So I guess that's
my question,

1258
00:51:45,560 --> 00:51:46,970
but probably I
just need to read

1259
00:51:46,970 --> 00:51:49,490
your work to answer
my question,

1260
00:51:49,490 --> 00:51:50,630
which is essentially,
you know,

1261
00:51:50,630 --> 00:51:52,040
what were some of
the core findings

1262
00:51:52,040 --> 00:51:54,094
around adoption?

1263
00:51:54,094 --> 00:51:55,609
Especially barriers and

1264
00:51:55,609 --> 00:51:58,250
potential solutions
to adoption,

1265
00:51:58,250 --> 00:52:00,334
to large-scale
adoption especially.

1266
00:52:00,334 --> 00:52:01,670
And I'm very excited to

1267
00:52:01,670 --> 00:52:02,990
read your findings

1268
00:52:02,990 --> 00:52:04,385
around that, your
dissertation.

1269
00:52:04,385 --> 00:52:08,225
In that vein, my
second question is,

1270
00:52:08,225 --> 00:52:09,680
so in myfile

1271
00:52:09,680 --> 00:52:11,285
program evaluation
and monitoring,

1272
00:52:11,285 --> 00:52:13,729
we have a professional
association

1273
00:52:13,729 --> 00:52:15,649
of the American
Evaluation Association.

1274
00:52:15,649 --> 00:52:16,235
I think

1275
00:52:16,235 --> 00:52:17,569
other national
associations

1276
00:52:17,569 --> 00:52:18,559
have similar things.

1277
00:52:18,559 --> 00:52:19,999
For us. It's called
the systems and

1278
00:52:19,999 --> 00:52:22,535
evaluation topical
interest group.

1279
00:52:22,535 --> 00:52:24,979
And I think APA,

1280
00:52:24,979 --> 00:52:26,510
the American Psychological
Association,

1281
00:52:26,510 --> 00:52:30,110
has the Society for this
psychological study

1282
00:52:30,110 --> 00:52:31,489
of social origin or
something like that.

1283
00:52:31,489 --> 00:52:33,679
And they kind of touching
systems methods,

1284
00:52:33,679 --> 00:52:35,329
but certainly an area of

1285
00:52:35,329 --> 00:52:37,504
applying science to
social problems.

1286
00:52:37,504 --> 00:52:38,720
Even now, like
a fellowship

1287
00:52:38,720 --> 00:52:40,099
in Congress and
stuff like that.

1288
00:52:40,099 --> 00:52:42,049
So those professional
associations

1289
00:52:42,049 --> 00:52:45,889
have for venues for
both the film and

1290
00:52:45,889 --> 00:52:47,480
take the formulation
and fermentation

1291
00:52:47,480 --> 00:52:49,489
these ideas and
also going on in

1292
00:52:49,489 --> 00:52:51,799
the community and
find them someone

1293
00:52:51,799 --> 00:52:54,199
or public policy has
something similar.

1294
00:52:54,199 --> 00:52:56,479
So it's kinda hook
on a question of

1295
00:52:56,479 --> 00:52:58,460
adoption because
that would be

1296
00:52:58,460 --> 00:53:00,260
a way to increase
adoption.

1297
00:53:00,260 --> 00:53:03,109
It's, it's sort of
professional associations,

1298
00:53:03,109 --> 00:53:04,534
but I hope that
makes sense.

1299
00:53:04,534 --> 00:53:05,510
It did.

1300
00:53:05,510 --> 00:53:06,980
And thanks for
the question.

1301
00:53:06,980 --> 00:53:11,629
I have not seen a whole
scale adoption of

1302
00:53:11,629 --> 00:53:13,910
these methods
by policymakers

1303
00:53:13,910 --> 00:53:16,640
and decision makers
in the public sector.

1304
00:53:16,640 --> 00:53:17,405
Okay?

1305
00:53:17,405 --> 00:53:20,900
I am seen limited research

1306
00:53:20,900 --> 00:53:23,899
from the BI systems
community that

1307
00:53:23,899 --> 00:53:26,824
specifically targets
these methods

1308
00:53:26,824 --> 00:53:28,700
for use by policymakers

1309
00:53:28,700 --> 00:53:30,124
and decision-making,
right?

1310
00:53:30,124 --> 00:53:34,954
So I guess to answer
your question,

1311
00:53:34,954 --> 00:53:39,800
they're not it's not a
mature adoption yet.

1312
00:53:39,800 --> 00:53:41,180
Okay. And I
think, you know,

1313
00:53:41,180 --> 00:53:43,100
along with lower Cabrera,

1314
00:53:43,100 --> 00:53:45,244
my objection myself,

1315
00:53:45,244 --> 00:53:46,759
there are some researchers

1316
00:53:46,759 --> 00:53:48,560
were trying to put
out the kind of

1317
00:53:48,560 --> 00:53:52,519
research that will
be useful to those,

1318
00:53:52,519 --> 00:53:54,259
that particular
group of people

1319
00:53:54,259 --> 00:53:56,120
in the adoption of,

1320
00:53:56,120 --> 00:53:58,159
of systems techniques

1321
00:53:58,159 --> 00:54:00,169
for their wicked problems.

1322
00:54:00,169 --> 00:54:03,814
A lot of it has to
do was making the,

1323
00:54:03,814 --> 00:54:06,980
the theories which are
somewhat esoteric,

1324
00:54:06,980 --> 00:54:09,409
palatable to your average

1325
00:54:09,409 --> 00:54:13,054
everyday policymaker.

1326
00:54:13,054 --> 00:54:15,559
And so that's why
the work being

1327
00:54:15,559 --> 00:54:20,900
done by some scholars

1328
00:54:20,900 --> 00:54:25,040
on teaching systems
thinking to children was

1329
00:54:25,040 --> 00:54:27,289
so useful to me
because they

1330
00:54:27,289 --> 00:54:30,050
can teach these
concepts to kids.

1331
00:54:30,050 --> 00:54:31,880
Learn.

1332
00:54:31,880 --> 00:54:34,429
Their career, came
out with something

1333
00:54:34,429 --> 00:54:36,304
called the SRP, right?

1334
00:54:36,304 --> 00:54:38,374
What's a way to,
to really just

1335
00:54:38,374 --> 00:54:41,089
break down
systems thinking

1336
00:54:41,089 --> 00:54:43,579
to its most elemental form

1337
00:54:43,579 --> 00:54:46,895
and put it in a
digestible fashion.

1338
00:54:46,895 --> 00:54:49,385
That can be
taught to anyway.

1339
00:54:49,385 --> 00:54:52,410
And I will now

1340
00:54:52,410 --> 00:54:54,860
after my dissertation,
That's my work.

1341
00:54:54,860 --> 00:54:56,389
That's what I,
that's where I want

1342
00:54:56,389 --> 00:54:58,730
to spend my time doing.

1343
00:54:58,730 --> 00:55:01,910
And furthering that
curriculum development

1344
00:55:01,910 --> 00:55:03,515
and furthering
that thought.

1345
00:55:03,515 --> 00:55:05,599
Hey, Eric, Yeah.

1346
00:55:05,599 --> 00:55:06,980
Question.

1347
00:55:08,380 --> 00:55:12,050
Yeah. I was curious.

1348
00:55:12,050 --> 00:55:13,999
You talked in
the beginning of

1349
00:55:13,999 --> 00:55:18,019
the presentation
about trying to

1350
00:55:18,019 --> 00:55:19,850
get interviews with some

1351
00:55:19,850 --> 00:55:22,940
of these policymakers

1352
00:55:22,940 --> 00:55:25,429
and stakeholders of

1353
00:55:25,429 --> 00:55:29,120
different like public
organizations.

1354
00:55:29,120 --> 00:55:31,309
Were you able to get
those interviews?

1355
00:55:31,309 --> 00:55:32,179
Did you?

1356
00:55:32,179 --> 00:55:34,310
I know you said you kind
of had some trouble.

1357
00:55:34,310 --> 00:55:36,800
There is COVID and you
talk to some people in

1358
00:55:36,800 --> 00:55:41,099
the operations research,
but what yeah.

1359
00:55:41,099 --> 00:55:43,699
What do you actually
able to to to

1360
00:55:43,699 --> 00:55:46,369
interview these folks
are actually no.

1361
00:55:46,369 --> 00:55:47,045
Okay.

1362
00:55:47,045 --> 00:55:49,384
Because the folks
I had lined up

1363
00:55:49,384 --> 00:55:52,550
were sidelined
by the pandemic.

1364
00:55:52,550 --> 00:55:55,730
So I had to, in the
middle of my research,

1365
00:55:55,730 --> 00:55:59,120
I had to say sort of
my, what are the,

1366
00:55:59,120 --> 00:56:00,830
the information
I was getting,

1367
00:56:00,830 --> 00:56:03,515
I had to switch to

1368
00:56:03,515 --> 00:56:05,764
only academic folks know

1369
00:56:05,764 --> 00:56:07,849
those who were
studying the issue.

1370
00:56:07,849 --> 00:56:10,040
So i 1 is a real-world
experience.

1371
00:56:10,040 --> 00:56:12,230
I wanted to, to go
to them and say,

1372
00:56:12,230 --> 00:56:13,430
What are you using,
what kinds of

1373
00:56:13,430 --> 00:56:15,064
things are you
excited about?

1374
00:56:15,064 --> 00:56:17,119
But I ended up
doing is going

1375
00:56:17,119 --> 00:56:19,475
through the research
to me and say, Okay,

1376
00:56:19,475 --> 00:56:21,334
tell me what you're seeing

1377
00:56:21,334 --> 00:56:23,180
as opposed to specifically

1378
00:56:23,180 --> 00:56:24,949
asking the Spence who are

1379
00:56:24,949 --> 00:56:27,649
using the particular
techniques.

1380
00:56:27,649 --> 00:56:28,280
Gotcha.

1381
00:56:28,280 --> 00:56:29,299
And so then your
research has

1382
00:56:29,299 --> 00:56:30,410
kind of like a synthesis

1383
00:56:30,410 --> 00:56:32,030
of your findings from

1384
00:56:32,030 --> 00:56:34,174
those academic interviews?

1385
00:56:34,174 --> 00:56:36,274
Absolutely. Yes. Got it.

1386
00:56:36,274 --> 00:56:37,370
Thank you.

1387
00:56:37,370 --> 00:56:39,389
Alyssa.

1388
00:56:40,390 --> 00:56:43,220
Hi, Melissa. High has

1389
00:56:43,220 --> 00:56:45,605
garnered meaningful while.

1390
00:56:45,605 --> 00:56:46,850
It has been a hot minute.

1391
00:56:46,850 --> 00:56:47,420
Thank you so much

1392
00:56:47,420 --> 00:56:49,429
for the opportunity
to learn.

1393
00:56:49,429 --> 00:56:51,680
But the soup on
hold for a moment.

1394
00:56:51,680 --> 00:56:53,390
So I'm, I'm interested.

1395
00:56:53,390 --> 00:56:55,579
I was working, I
was attending as

1396
00:56:55,579 --> 00:56:58,400
a student some of
the PSU work in

1397
00:56:58,400 --> 00:57:00,439
the winter and
then attend to

1398
00:57:00,439 --> 00:57:02,585
the International Society
for System Sciences

1399
00:57:02,585 --> 00:57:04,189
meeting a couple
of years back.

1400
00:57:04,189 --> 00:57:05,059
But now I'm finding

1401
00:57:05,059 --> 00:57:06,440
myself in a
position where I'm

1402
00:57:06,440 --> 00:57:07,639
supporting
affordable housing

1403
00:57:07,639 --> 00:57:08,899
development in my city,

1404
00:57:08,899 --> 00:57:10,340
which is Olympia,
Washington.

1405
00:57:10,340 --> 00:57:13,700
And so this is

1406
00:57:13,700 --> 00:57:15,334
a directly relevant
topic for me.

1407
00:57:15,334 --> 00:57:17,959
How do I engage with
city officials,

1408
00:57:17,959 --> 00:57:19,580
non-profit community
land trust

1409
00:57:19,580 --> 00:57:20,960
for profit developers.

1410
00:57:20,960 --> 00:57:22,459
Way that we can really map

1411
00:57:22,459 --> 00:57:24,530
the systems approach
of what we're

1412
00:57:24,530 --> 00:57:26,119
trying to solve without

1413
00:57:26,119 --> 00:57:28,325
having any one particular
interests takeover.

1414
00:57:28,325 --> 00:57:30,019
One of the challenges
with affordable housing

1415
00:57:30,019 --> 00:57:31,565
is that people,

1416
00:57:31,565 --> 00:57:32,404
the developers,

1417
00:57:32,404 --> 00:57:33,980
are intrinsically
profit motivated.

1418
00:57:33,980 --> 00:57:36,019
They usually want
to keep a hold of

1419
00:57:36,019 --> 00:57:38,810
the property and then
provide it as rent.

1420
00:57:38,810 --> 00:57:40,640
But that doesn't
support homeownership,

1421
00:57:40,640 --> 00:57:41,600
which is an
important goal of

1422
00:57:41,600 --> 00:57:42,830
the city and provides

1423
00:57:42,830 --> 00:57:44,030
higher housing costs and

1424
00:57:44,030 --> 00:57:45,604
homeownership board
with mortgages.

1425
00:57:45,604 --> 00:57:47,494
All of this is
just to say,

1426
00:57:47,494 --> 00:57:49,219
how do I keep in
touch with what

1427
00:57:49,219 --> 00:57:50,900
you're continuing
to do these,

1428
00:57:50,900 --> 00:57:52,220
these educational
evolutions

1429
00:57:52,220 --> 00:57:53,630
that you're undertaking.

1430
00:57:53,630 --> 00:57:55,475
Because I want to bring
that to my people.

1431
00:57:55,475 --> 00:57:58,340
And also I don't
know if you know,

1432
00:57:58,340 --> 00:57:58,790
because I'm sorry, I

1433
00:57:58,790 --> 00:58:00,049
missed the first-party
presentation,

1434
00:58:00,049 --> 00:58:01,399
but have you been in
touch with tensor?

1435
00:58:01,399 --> 00:58:02,510
They'll go from
Argonne National

1436
00:58:02,510 --> 00:58:04,069
Laboratory because
she did a lot of

1437
00:58:04,069 --> 00:58:05,300
problem structure
that I would

1438
00:58:05,300 --> 00:58:07,800
think would
theory relevant.

1439
00:58:08,140 --> 00:58:10,490
Unless you're saying
question first.

1440
00:58:10,490 --> 00:58:12,740
Yes, Pam and I actually,

1441
00:58:12,740 --> 00:58:14,029
she was very
instrumental in

1442
00:58:14,029 --> 00:58:16,054
my research
actually because

1443
00:58:16,054 --> 00:58:18,289
I'm doing exactly
the same kinds

1444
00:58:18,289 --> 00:58:21,019
of work and their argon.

1445
00:58:21,019 --> 00:58:23,360
And I was really excited
to talk with her.

1446
00:58:23,360 --> 00:58:26,329
We bedded ideas
back and forth.

1447
00:58:26,329 --> 00:58:28,520
But in terms of the, the,

1448
00:58:28,520 --> 00:58:33,079
the ray going stakeholders

1449
00:58:33,079 --> 00:58:34,760
is always difficult.
It's really tough.

1450
00:58:34,760 --> 00:58:36,829
You have to develop a
common bond with them.

1451
00:58:36,829 --> 00:58:38,510
You have to envelop a
common purpose with

1452
00:58:38,510 --> 00:58:40,865
them and get
them away from,

1453
00:58:40,865 --> 00:58:42,139
you want them to
articulate what

1454
00:58:42,139 --> 00:58:44,150
their parochial
interests are.

1455
00:58:44,150 --> 00:58:46,730
But you wanted to
draw back in and,

1456
00:58:46,730 --> 00:58:49,325
and work on
something that will

1457
00:58:49,325 --> 00:58:53,179
be compromised solution
for every bond.

1458
00:58:53,179 --> 00:58:55,085
And that is not easy.

1459
00:58:55,085 --> 00:58:57,994
The only thing
you can do as

1460
00:58:57,994 --> 00:59:02,209
a scientist in that
situation is broaden.

1461
00:59:02,209 --> 00:59:07,859
The options are broaden
the, the diverse.

1462
00:59:09,280 --> 00:59:12,680
I think one of the
discussion to that all of

1463
00:59:12,680 --> 00:59:16,925
the stakeholders have
the voices hers, okay?

1464
00:59:16,925 --> 00:59:19,550
There's a lot of work on

1465
00:59:19,550 --> 00:59:23,540
this that has to
do with dialog

1466
00:59:23,540 --> 00:59:28,460
and deliberation
and those kinds

1467
00:59:28,460 --> 00:59:29,510
of things to try and

1468
00:59:29,510 --> 00:59:30,710
get everybody
on the table.

1469
00:59:30,710 --> 00:59:31,985
That's the important part.

1470
00:59:31,985 --> 00:59:34,309
Once you get money at
the table, listen,

1471
00:59:34,309 --> 00:59:35,809
having a voice,
then you can

1472
00:59:35,809 --> 00:59:38,430
start working on
those boundaries.

1473
00:59:38,860 --> 00:59:41,705
Okay. That makes sense.

1474
00:59:41,705 --> 00:59:43,880
And will I be where
would you recommend

1475
00:59:43,880 --> 00:59:45,709
I I go to keep in
touch with your work.

1476
00:59:45,709 --> 00:59:47,719
Is it doubles right

1477
00:59:47,719 --> 00:59:50,165
now just because
my e-mail,

1478
00:59:50,165 --> 00:59:53,015
I don't have any up a
web-page or anything.

1479
00:59:53,015 --> 00:59:56,390
But you can contact
me by email.

1480
00:59:56,390 --> 00:59:58,804
I can share anything
that I have with you.

1481
00:59:58,804 --> 01:00:00,650
Answering questions,

1482
01:00:00,650 --> 01:00:02,585
thinking are Campbell
at say brook

1483
01:00:02,585 --> 01:00:04,459
that edu thank you

1484
01:00:04,459 --> 01:00:06,080
very much. You're
very welcome us.

1485
01:00:06,080 --> 01:00:11,389
And Jenna tale, hey,

1486
01:00:11,389 --> 01:00:14,630
Roderick, I had a question

1487
01:00:14,630 --> 01:00:17,779
about the adoption
threshold.

1488
01:00:17,779 --> 01:00:18,949
He's been talking
about like a lot

1489
01:00:18,949 --> 01:00:21,089
of people talk about.

1490
01:00:21,730 --> 01:00:24,800
And definitely I'm
fire shortsighted

1491
01:00:24,800 --> 01:00:26,014
and public policy to

1492
01:00:26,014 --> 01:00:27,080
totally know all of this.

1493
01:00:27,080 --> 01:00:31,975
But I I I'm kind
of curious,

1494
01:00:31,975 --> 01:00:34,549
like why there's a need

1495
01:00:34,549 --> 01:00:37,560
for such a high
adoption rate.

1496
01:00:37,660 --> 01:00:39,860
Because not everything's

1497
01:00:39,860 --> 01:00:41,300
a wicked problem, right?

1498
01:00:41,300 --> 01:00:43,790
And so like, we don't need

1499
01:00:43,790 --> 01:00:45,410
the whole public policy

1500
01:00:45,410 --> 01:00:47,495
working on
wicked problems.

1501
01:00:47,495 --> 01:00:49,730
We only need like a
targeted approach.

1502
01:00:49,730 --> 01:00:51,800
And so as you're

1503
01:00:51,800 --> 01:00:54,514
going through your
methodologies switch.

1504
01:00:54,514 --> 01:00:56,690
I I also don't know why

1505
01:00:56,690 --> 01:00:58,550
those were chosen
in particular,

1506
01:00:58,550 --> 01:01:00,769
that wasn't super
clear to me.

1507
01:01:00,769 --> 01:01:02,269
Other than like That was

1508
01:01:02,269 --> 01:01:04,589
just what was available.

1509
01:01:06,130 --> 01:01:09,304
Is there do you
have a goal

1510
01:01:09,304 --> 01:01:13,100
of narrowing the
approach to make

1511
01:01:13,100 --> 01:01:15,589
it more targeted so

1512
01:01:15,589 --> 01:01:19,850
that smaller changes equal

1513
01:01:19,850 --> 01:01:22,650
a bigger changes
in long-term.

1514
01:01:24,010 --> 01:01:27,139
It's kind of tough to
present this to you

1515
01:01:27,139 --> 01:01:28,549
because you have to

1516
01:01:28,549 --> 01:01:30,545
support narrow what
you're talking about.

1517
01:01:30,545 --> 01:01:31,849
At the beginning,
I started

1518
01:01:31,849 --> 01:01:33,394
talking about
wicked problems.

1519
01:01:33,394 --> 01:01:35,480
Wicked problems with
those monumental

1520
01:01:35,480 --> 01:01:37,955
huge issues
that are there,

1521
01:01:37,955 --> 01:01:39,139
go cross boundaries

1522
01:01:39,139 --> 01:01:40,849
and goal cause
organizations.

1523
01:01:40,849 --> 01:01:43,069
You wouldn't necessarily
use system thinking

1524
01:01:43,069 --> 01:01:44,330
for a problem that's

1525
01:01:44,330 --> 01:01:46,279
not that my images, right?

1526
01:01:46,279 --> 01:01:47,330
Oh, that's part of

1527
01:01:47,330 --> 01:01:49,144
the boundary
critique, right?

1528
01:01:49,144 --> 01:01:50,299
Part of which want to do

1529
01:01:50,299 --> 01:01:51,799
any initial
stages is figure

1530
01:01:51,799 --> 01:01:55,340
out whether
this issue that

1531
01:01:55,340 --> 01:01:57,304
you're facing requires

1532
01:01:57,304 --> 01:02:02,704
such a substantial
methodology

1533
01:02:02,704 --> 01:02:03,679
or you may not.

1534
01:02:03,679 --> 01:02:09,559
Right. And the the the
particular methods

1535
01:02:09,559 --> 01:02:12,349
that I describe,
the VSM, SSM,

1536
01:02:12,349 --> 01:02:19,324
those are all those things

1537
01:02:19,324 --> 01:02:21,245
in the literature
that I've found that

1538
01:02:21,245 --> 01:02:24,409
policy makers are used in.

1539
01:02:24,409 --> 01:02:26,329
Okay, so I believe
Jews of them,

1540
01:02:26,329 --> 01:02:29,060
and I didn't just
regret the modern era.

1541
01:02:29,060 --> 01:02:31,504
Then here somewhere,
those are

1542
01:02:31,504 --> 01:02:34,175
the historically
used processes

1543
01:02:34,175 --> 01:02:36,020
that have been used
by stakeholders over

1544
01:02:36,020 --> 01:02:37,699
the years to address

1545
01:02:37,699 --> 01:02:39,170
the problem to
behalf, right?

1546
01:02:39,170 --> 01:02:41,990
None of the ones that
I haven't mentioned

1547
01:02:41,990 --> 01:02:43,339
haven't been used or

1548
01:02:43,339 --> 01:02:44,899
maybe that will be
used in the future.

1549
01:02:44,899 --> 01:02:45,769
But those are the ones

1550
01:02:45,769 --> 01:02:46,760
that have been
used and are

1551
01:02:46,760 --> 01:02:48,485
historically tied

1552
01:02:48,485 --> 01:02:51,540
to the solving of
wicked problems.

1553
01:02:52,300 --> 01:02:57,390
Yeah. So I mean,

1554
01:02:57,550 --> 01:02:59,914
I feel like, oh, those are

1555
01:02:59,914 --> 01:03:02,719
essentially boil
down a little bit.

1556
01:03:02,719 --> 01:03:05,450
And he talks about

1557
01:03:05,450 --> 01:03:07,925
finding like essential
as a systems thinking.

1558
01:03:07,925 --> 01:03:09,320
And when you
brought that up,

1559
01:03:09,320 --> 01:03:11,029
I was a little tedious

1560
01:03:11,029 --> 01:03:12,290
to you and accept that at

1561
01:03:12,290 --> 01:03:13,985
all because there are

1562
01:03:13,985 --> 01:03:15,380
so many different
methodologies,

1563
01:03:15,380 --> 01:03:17,270
how is that even
possible that somebody

1564
01:03:17,270 --> 01:03:20,130
could do that for
all situations?

1565
01:03:20,260 --> 01:03:22,850
As it is interesting
to save it.

1566
01:03:22,850 --> 01:03:23,629
I was wondering if you

1567
01:03:23,629 --> 01:03:24,889
could unpack that
a little bit.

1568
01:03:24,889 --> 01:03:25,325
Yeah.

1569
01:03:25,325 --> 01:03:27,140
You're talking about
the thing that makes,

1570
01:03:27,140 --> 01:03:29,090
makes system scientists,

1571
01:03:29,090 --> 01:03:31,564
the system scientists,
the initial,

1572
01:03:31,564 --> 01:03:36,110
the initial application
of a method to

1573
01:03:36,110 --> 01:03:37,879
a problem is one of

1574
01:03:37,879 --> 01:03:40,264
the hardest parts of

1575
01:03:40,264 --> 01:03:41,734
making this happen, right?

1576
01:03:41,734 --> 01:03:43,070
So you couldn't
just say, okay,

1577
01:03:43,070 --> 01:03:45,169
here's a whole bunch
of system tools.

1578
01:03:45,169 --> 01:03:46,879
You guys go ahead
and use it.

1579
01:03:46,879 --> 01:03:49,205
Hey, there's nothing
that was about.

1580
01:03:49,205 --> 01:03:52,130
It's about doing the
weren't listening,

1581
01:03:52,130 --> 01:03:52,520
having

1582
01:03:52,520 --> 01:03:54,379
listening sessions
and finding out from

1583
01:03:54,379 --> 01:03:55,610
the stakeholders

1584
01:03:55,610 --> 01:03:58,279
what the parameter,
the problem.

1585
01:03:58,279 --> 01:04:01,159
And then with
your knowledge

1586
01:04:01,159 --> 01:04:02,509
and education
systems tools,

1587
01:04:02,509 --> 01:04:05,000
methods and tactics,
to then use

1588
01:04:05,000 --> 01:04:07,984
those in a way that fits
the problem, right?

1589
01:04:07,984 --> 01:04:09,950
So I had the same
reaction, right?

1590
01:04:09,950 --> 01:04:11,510
I'm like, Well,
you just can take

1591
01:04:11,510 --> 01:04:13,219
systems tools and use

1592
01:04:13,219 --> 01:04:14,885
them in a
particular ratio.

1593
01:04:14,885 --> 01:04:16,760
How do you know which tool

1594
01:04:16,760 --> 01:04:18,710
to use when that
doesn't make him?

1595
01:04:18,710 --> 01:04:20,659
He said, Well, that's what

1596
01:04:20,659 --> 01:04:22,669
comes from experience and

1597
01:04:22,669 --> 01:04:26,240
knowledge of those
particular tools

1598
01:04:26,240 --> 01:04:31,444
and the particular
Problem Set beds.

1599
01:04:31,444 --> 01:04:33,170
That's given a lot of

1600
01:04:33,170 --> 01:04:34,309
the books I read a lot of

1601
01:04:34,309 --> 01:04:35,604
books by Ray ice and RAS.

1602
01:04:35,604 --> 01:04:40,354
Now the book, if nothing
but stories, right?

1603
01:04:40,354 --> 01:04:42,620
So, you know, it's
a story about

1604
01:04:42,620 --> 01:04:44,389
this particular
township to

1605
01:04:44,389 --> 01:04:45,919
that district,
your problem.

1606
01:04:45,919 --> 01:04:48,245
And they solve it by using

1607
01:04:48,245 --> 01:04:51,109
a combination of
these tools, right?

1608
01:04:51,109 --> 01:04:53,359
So that's how
I learn that.

1609
01:04:53,359 --> 01:04:55,429
Okay? You actually have to

1610
01:04:55,429 --> 01:04:57,725
be a participant
in this as a,

1611
01:04:57,725 --> 01:05:01,460
as a as an ODR system
science professional.

1612
01:05:01,460 --> 01:05:04,220
You enough to be
the one that says

1613
01:05:04,220 --> 01:05:06,050
this tool will be

1614
01:05:06,050 --> 01:05:09,389
useful in this
particular situation.

1615
01:05:10,810 --> 01:05:12,724
Thank you.

1616
01:05:12,724 --> 01:05:15,170
Great. Gathering your data

1617
01:05:15,170 --> 01:05:18,619
that you want to comment
or ask a question.

1618
01:05:18,619 --> 01:05:21,769
Yeah, I mean now we can

1619
01:05:21,769 --> 01:05:28,669
hit the difficulty
that I see.

1620
01:05:28,669 --> 01:05:31,790
So I'm working in
wildfire mitigation,

1621
01:05:31,790 --> 01:05:33,560
but for the recording,

1622
01:05:33,560 --> 01:05:34,819
I am not a representative

1623
01:05:34,819 --> 01:05:36,034
of my employer in the sky,

1624
01:05:36,034 --> 01:05:40,140
IBM is duly noted.

1625
01:05:41,230 --> 01:05:43,430
One of my quarter kind of

1626
01:05:43,430 --> 01:05:44,629
ongoing questions is when

1627
01:05:44,629 --> 01:05:45,710
I see these sessions and

1628
01:05:45,710 --> 01:05:46,730
I've been in some sessions

1629
01:05:46,730 --> 01:05:47,539
lately where they try

1630
01:05:47,539 --> 01:05:49,955
to have kind of
workgroups and

1631
01:05:49,955 --> 01:05:51,859
Suppose it's a, it's on

1632
01:05:51,859 --> 01:05:54,109
the mediator to
implement some of

1633
01:05:54,109 --> 01:05:55,609
these things
and I am not in

1634
01:05:55,609 --> 01:05:58,069
the mediator role
for the meetings.

1635
01:05:58,069 --> 01:06:01,340
But the difficulty
that we're in

1636
01:06:01,340 --> 01:06:03,365
sometimes is that
emotions are

1637
01:06:03,365 --> 01:06:05,629
so hot because it's,

1638
01:06:05,629 --> 01:06:07,249
you know, it's a
wicked problem with

1639
01:06:07,249 --> 01:06:09,470
kind of devastating
consequences.

1640
01:06:09,470 --> 01:06:12,320
Though, emotions
are running so hot.

1641
01:06:12,320 --> 01:06:16,235
And by the time we
have politicians,

1642
01:06:16,235 --> 01:06:17,735
regulators,

1643
01:06:17,735 --> 01:06:19,699
business executives,

1644
01:06:19,699 --> 01:06:22,189
public advocacy,
advocacy groups,

1645
01:06:22,189 --> 01:06:26,855
and huge numbers of
lawyers running around.

1646
01:06:26,855 --> 01:06:29,509
It becomes difficult for

1647
01:06:29,509 --> 01:06:30,769
these groups to
talk to each

1648
01:06:30,769 --> 01:06:32,479
other without
the sessions.

1649
01:06:32,479 --> 01:06:34,489
Really, I've seen
some that have

1650
01:06:34,489 --> 01:06:37,215
degraded really
badly edit it.

1651
01:06:37,215 --> 01:06:39,680
It's important to have
empathy because some

1652
01:06:39,680 --> 01:06:41,584
of the people who
are speaking,

1653
01:06:41,584 --> 01:06:44,105
our wildfire survivors,

1654
01:06:44,105 --> 01:06:45,740
they have lost
their homes.

1655
01:06:45,740 --> 01:06:48,064
They have had to evacuate.

1656
01:06:48,064 --> 01:06:51,139
So it's really important
to remember that,

1657
01:06:51,139 --> 01:06:53,060
but it's sometimes
makes it difficult

1658
01:06:53,060 --> 01:06:55,175
for these sessions
is feel productive.

1659
01:06:55,175 --> 01:06:57,319
I don't know if you have
thoughts on matter.

1660
01:06:57,319 --> 01:07:00,740
If there's,
there's literature

1661
01:07:00,740 --> 01:07:02,419
that speaks to
what to do when

1662
01:07:02,419 --> 01:07:04,384
the stakeholders
are already

1663
01:07:04,384 --> 01:07:05,870
metaphorically at

1664
01:07:05,870 --> 01:07:09,499
each other's throats
and really upset.

1665
01:07:09,499 --> 01:07:11,944
Well, you have
tools now, right?

1666
01:07:11,944 --> 01:07:15,049
I was an analyst
or a poem,

1667
01:07:15,049 --> 01:07:17,510
he jumps Commission
and we were doing

1668
01:07:17,510 --> 01:07:19,819
a workshop on fuel
oil inventory

1669
01:07:19,819 --> 01:07:21,335
of all things, right?

1670
01:07:21,335 --> 01:07:24,769
It was really,
really bombastic.

1671
01:07:24,769 --> 01:07:26,330
I mean, people
would scream

1672
01:07:26,330 --> 01:07:28,085
at each other and not
talking with him,

1673
01:07:28,085 --> 01:07:30,595
leaving the room
and I was in

1674
01:07:30,595 --> 01:07:33,515
there and trying to
mediate the whole thing.

1675
01:07:33,515 --> 01:07:36,259
It is a goes

1676
01:07:36,259 --> 01:07:38,255
back to facilitation
skills, right?

1677
01:07:38,255 --> 01:07:39,650
Do you have the ability

1678
01:07:39,650 --> 01:07:41,465
to make everyone
feel heard?

1679
01:07:41,465 --> 01:07:42,229
Okay.

1680
01:07:42,229 --> 01:07:43,955
Do you have the ability to

1681
01:07:43,955 --> 01:07:46,160
outline those things

1682
01:07:46,160 --> 01:07:47,780
that people
have in common?

1683
01:07:47,780 --> 01:07:49,490
Do you have the ability to

1684
01:07:49,490 --> 01:07:50,959
articulate those things

1685
01:07:50,959 --> 01:07:52,459
that folks disagree about?

1686
01:07:52,459 --> 01:07:55,280
And is that a
thought I had read?

1687
01:07:55,280 --> 01:07:57,829
So the newest systems,

1688
01:07:57,829 --> 01:08:01,984
it has more to do with
having them understand

1689
01:08:01,984 --> 01:08:04,055
that you're
trying to solve

1690
01:08:04,055 --> 01:08:05,719
a problem where everybody

1691
01:08:05,719 --> 01:08:07,759
in the room can
buy it, right?

1692
01:08:07,759 --> 01:08:09,664
Again, you know,

1693
01:08:09,664 --> 01:08:11,195
I would recommend
to you this book,

1694
01:08:11,195 --> 01:08:16,830
Managing Public
Disputes by

1695
01:08:17,800 --> 01:08:21,935
Carpenter and Kennedy
soon Carpenter and

1696
01:08:21,935 --> 01:08:25,775
w0 w j can be
soon carpenters,

1697
01:08:25,775 --> 01:08:31,340
former aide to Governor
Schwarzenegger.

1698
01:08:31,340 --> 01:08:32,884
So young,

1699
01:08:32,884 --> 01:08:35,030
she's obviously someone
who has been in

1700
01:08:35,030 --> 01:08:36,769
these situations
before and

1701
01:08:36,769 --> 01:08:38,599
knows how to bring
stakeholders together.

1702
01:08:38,599 --> 01:08:40,160
So that is linked.

1703
01:08:40,160 --> 01:08:42,514
There is literature
on how to do that.

1704
01:08:42,514 --> 01:08:46,790
But my best advice to

1705
01:08:46,790 --> 01:08:49,040
you is to make sure that

1706
01:08:49,040 --> 01:08:51,485
you are the arbiter
of peace or day.

1707
01:08:51,485 --> 01:08:52,925
You are the person that

1708
01:08:52,925 --> 01:08:55,144
makes sure that
everybody is bird.

1709
01:08:55,144 --> 01:08:57,949
And that disputes,
however,

1710
01:08:57,949 --> 01:09:01,385
can take risks are
addressed in the room.

1711
01:09:01,385 --> 01:09:02,510
Right. So if you do,

1712
01:09:02,510 --> 01:09:03,860
that's been my experience.

1713
01:09:03,860 --> 01:09:05,824
Both of them probably
just Commission

1714
01:09:05,824 --> 01:09:07,250
and in my practice
right now,

1715
01:09:07,250 --> 01:09:08,870
if you do that,
people feel

1716
01:09:08,870 --> 01:09:12,770
heard and the vitriol
goes down a little bit.

1717
01:09:12,770 --> 01:09:14,900
To note that,
well, it's also

1718
01:09:14,900 --> 01:09:16,340
recommended Gottlob most,

1719
01:09:16,340 --> 01:09:18,109
and it really is
time for us to wrap

1720
01:09:18,109 --> 01:09:20,059
this up and
thank Roderick,

1721
01:09:20,059 --> 01:09:23,810
I'm going to
click here and I

1722
01:09:23,810 --> 01:09:25,459
know you'll all
hear it really at

1723
01:09:25,459 --> 01:09:27,589
your library.

1724
01:09:27,589 --> 01:09:28,745
Thank you so much and

1725
01:09:28,745 --> 01:09:30,199
have a really
great discussion.

1726
01:09:30,199 --> 01:09:31,145
I appreciate you live in

1727
01:09:31,145 --> 01:09:32,630
time for some Q and a,

1728
01:09:32,630 --> 01:09:34,520
which was really
the best part.

1729
01:09:34,520 --> 01:09:35,450
It's always the best part

1730
01:09:35,450 --> 01:09:36,469
of any presentation.

1731
01:09:36,469 --> 01:09:37,580
So I'm going to
go ahead and

1732
01:09:37,580 --> 01:09:38,929
turn the recorder off

1733
01:09:38,929 --> 01:09:40,649
and give everybody
their mission

1734
01:09:40,649 --> 01:09:42,530
to move on to the
rest of their day.

1735
01:09:42,530 --> 01:09:44,419
Do I hang up a
little bit longer?

1736
01:09:44,419 --> 01:09:46,955
That's fine too.
But I hung out.

1737
01:09:46,955 --> 01:09:50,480
Thank you all
very much for me.

1738
01:09:50,480 --> 01:09:53,429
Very much.