1
00:00:00,000 --> 00:00:00,720
Parks.

2
00:00:00,720 --> 00:00:01,860
Parks asked who adopted

3
00:00:01,860 --> 00:00:02,850
local governments have to

4
00:00:02,850 --> 00:00:04,064
adopt it and it's limited

5
00:00:04,064 --> 00:00:05,249
if it's in a farm zone,

6
00:00:05,249 --> 00:00:06,300
unless there's
any section,

7
00:00:06,300 --> 00:00:07,439
it's limited to the uses

8
00:00:07,439 --> 00:00:09,060
that are specified
in your rule.

9
00:00:09,060 --> 00:00:10,529
But I want to make
sure that we don't

10
00:00:10,529 --> 00:00:12,600
inadvertently by
allowing a designation

11
00:00:12,600 --> 00:00:14,609
that's not a gold
III designation

12
00:00:14,609 --> 00:00:16,529
or go for
designation whether

13
00:00:16,529 --> 00:00:18,209
we inadvertently excuse

14
00:00:18,209 --> 00:00:21,164
some later change
from the inception.

15
00:00:21,164 --> 00:00:23,009
I'm not sure what the
answer to that is.

16
00:00:23,009 --> 00:00:24,404
We might, we
might be alright.

17
00:00:24,404 --> 00:00:26,999
We need to think of
true, but it's only,

18
00:00:26,999 --> 00:00:29,400
we only want to think
it through if you want

19
00:00:29,400 --> 00:00:31,975
us to pursue that
designation.

20
00:00:31,975 --> 00:00:34,669
It seems to me it's
on the table and I

21
00:00:34,669 --> 00:00:37,039
wouldn't I
wouldn't consider

22
00:00:37,039 --> 00:00:39,469
taking that point until

23
00:00:39,469 --> 00:00:40,744
we had heard
from you and if

24
00:00:40,744 --> 00:00:42,620
you believe I agree
with you that it

25
00:00:42,620 --> 00:00:43,580
takes further thought and

26
00:00:43,580 --> 00:00:45,019
analysis on the
departments part.

27
00:00:45,019 --> 00:00:48,200
I would want to
have that thing.

28
00:00:48,200 --> 00:00:49,474
The thing that
was persuasive

29
00:00:49,474 --> 00:00:51,680
for interested me
in Larry's was

30
00:00:51,680 --> 00:00:53,719
so much the
thing of solving

31
00:00:53,719 --> 00:00:56,510
this problem
with accounting,

32
00:00:56,510 --> 00:00:58,070
but rather the issue

33
00:00:58,070 --> 00:01:01,070
of giving some legitimacy,

34
00:01:01,070 --> 00:01:05,029
credence overtly to
go late resources.

35
00:01:05,029 --> 00:01:08,074
And if we did what
Bob mentioned,

36
00:01:08,074 --> 00:01:12,454
which was just saw
more symbolic thing,

37
00:01:12,454 --> 00:01:14,075
which is to get
these things on it

38
00:01:14,075 --> 00:01:17,179
and called gold arc.

39
00:01:17,179 --> 00:01:19,879
Without basically changing

40
00:01:19,879 --> 00:01:22,170
the underlying zone.

41
00:01:22,180 --> 00:01:24,920
Then we would
have accomplished

42
00:01:24,920 --> 00:01:27,079
something sort
of important,

43
00:01:27,079 --> 00:01:29,629
albeit symbolic, and not

44
00:01:29,629 --> 00:01:31,565
throwing gold 34
out the window.

45
00:01:31,565 --> 00:01:33,589
And therefore it
wouldn't be, right.

46
00:01:33,589 --> 00:01:35,014
All the problems
of Jim's work.

47
00:01:35,014 --> 00:01:36,495
I think we can do that.

48
00:01:36,495 --> 00:01:38,855
I mean, there's an analogy

49
00:01:38,855 --> 00:01:42,480
stretched, admittedly,
to aggregate.

50
00:01:42,640 --> 00:01:45,140
Just because there is

51
00:01:45,140 --> 00:01:46,835
an aggregate designation,

52
00:01:46,835 --> 00:01:48,589
aggregate, this
aggregate extraction

53
00:01:48,589 --> 00:01:50,270
is allowed in
the pharmacy.

54
00:01:50,270 --> 00:01:52,640
But if the
designation changes

55
00:01:52,640 --> 00:01:55,190
from agriculture
to aggregate,

56
00:01:55,190 --> 00:01:57,034
I want to make sure that

57
00:01:57,034 --> 00:01:58,490
neither instance does that

58
00:01:58,490 --> 00:02:00,139
mean that in the future,

59
00:02:00,139 --> 00:02:01,970
an exception even be

60
00:02:01,970 --> 00:02:04,169
taken for different users?

61
00:02:07,480 --> 00:02:09,725
Will look further
into that.

62
00:02:09,725 --> 00:02:11,269
But there are e.g.

63
00:02:11,269 --> 00:02:12,544
Linn County does have

64
00:02:12,544 --> 00:02:14,044
cites his own aggregate,

65
00:02:14,044 --> 00:02:15,770
but none of the uses in

66
00:02:15,770 --> 00:02:18,769
their aggregate
zone exceed

67
00:02:18,769 --> 00:02:20,000
what we would allow
and goal three,

68
00:02:20,000 --> 00:02:21,290
so they've applied
it in a farm zone.

69
00:02:21,290 --> 00:02:22,189
It says aggregate.

70
00:02:22,189 --> 00:02:25,145
You can farm that land.
That's an allowed US.

71
00:02:25,145 --> 00:02:26,480
And there are some
other uses that you

72
00:02:26,480 --> 00:02:27,949
can do including
extraction.

73
00:02:27,949 --> 00:02:30,064
But it's a farm zone,
it's qualified.

74
00:02:30,064 --> 00:02:34,489
Cfus on the name
says aggregate.

75
00:02:34,489 --> 00:02:36,860
And I think that's
what we may be

76
00:02:36,860 --> 00:02:39,650
able to these rules to
something like that.

77
00:02:39,650 --> 00:02:41,059
Pretty simple.
You're concerned,

78
00:02:41,059 --> 00:02:42,380
dig as Metro getting
I'm not getting

79
00:02:42,380 --> 00:02:44,180
a cash crunch cell.

80
00:02:44,180 --> 00:02:45,290
That park which now

81
00:02:45,290 --> 00:02:46,699
has its parks designation,

82
00:02:46,699 --> 00:02:48,229
having had read
designation

83
00:02:48,229 --> 00:02:49,490
removes somebody for

84
00:02:49,490 --> 00:02:51,950
housing project than
thereby you would

85
00:02:51,950 --> 00:02:53,029
have allowed
that conversion

86
00:02:53,029 --> 00:02:54,799
without ever having
taken the exception?

87
00:02:54,799 --> 00:02:55,655
Yeah.

88
00:02:55,655 --> 00:02:57,680
You want to make
sure that I

89
00:02:57,680 --> 00:02:58,430
don't think it's gonna

90
00:02:58,430 --> 00:03:00,110
be a problem,
but it needs.

91
00:03:00,110 --> 00:03:02,689
Perhaps our thing here
could say the goal

92
00:03:02,689 --> 00:03:05,450
3.4 continues to
apply a lot of ways.

93
00:03:05,450 --> 00:03:06,395
The salt that
I think yeah.

94
00:03:06,395 --> 00:03:07,430
I mean, that's what
I'd like to have you

95
00:03:07,430 --> 00:03:09,620
come back and Bill,

96
00:03:09,620 --> 00:03:11,075
I liked I liked what

97
00:03:11,075 --> 00:03:13,339
your first symbol
or symbolic,

98
00:03:13,339 --> 00:03:14,869
the truth and
planning concept

99
00:03:14,869 --> 00:03:16,249
which didn't change
a lot of substance,

100
00:03:16,249 --> 00:03:18,845
but actually, that
was one good way.

101
00:03:18,845 --> 00:03:21,364
Well, one good option.

102
00:03:21,364 --> 00:03:24,215
Finally, I did hear

103
00:03:24,215 --> 00:03:25,880
a little bit discussion
about private parks.

104
00:03:25,880 --> 00:03:28,489
Private parks are
allowed a few.

105
00:03:28,489 --> 00:03:30,050
I think we could

106
00:03:30,050 --> 00:03:31,400
add something to
this to say that

107
00:03:31,400 --> 00:03:33,140
nothing in this
is meant to

108
00:03:33,140 --> 00:03:35,990
imply that because
we've we've

109
00:03:35,990 --> 00:03:39,184
authorized for
public parks

110
00:03:39,184 --> 00:03:41,209
a set of uses without
exception to go 3.4.

111
00:03:41,209 --> 00:03:43,250
We don't mean to imply
private parks now has

112
00:03:43,250 --> 00:03:46,220
the same ability unless

113
00:03:46,220 --> 00:03:48,004
you want that to happen.

114
00:03:48,004 --> 00:03:52,340
We don't think that

115
00:03:52,340 --> 00:03:54,080
we need to say that we

116
00:03:54,080 --> 00:03:56,765
think are so
important lights.

117
00:03:56,765 --> 00:03:58,969
Haven't you done
in your definition

118
00:03:58,969 --> 00:04:00,080
of park local,

119
00:04:00,080 --> 00:04:02,360
park city, county
regional or

120
00:04:02,360 --> 00:04:04,744
park district infinity
in the negative.

121
00:04:04,744 --> 00:04:06,289
I mean, we said
that it applies,

122
00:04:06,289 --> 00:04:07,879
but we could go further.

123
00:04:07,879 --> 00:04:09,080
And I don't know whether

124
00:04:09,080 --> 00:04:10,010
you want to decide
this today,

125
00:04:10,010 --> 00:04:11,225
but we could
go further and

126
00:04:11,225 --> 00:04:13,055
make it clear
that we do not.

127
00:04:13,055 --> 00:04:15,830
This does not mean
that a private park in

128
00:04:15,830 --> 00:04:18,829
companies use as well.

129
00:04:18,829 --> 00:04:20,809
If you think we need
that extra pair

130
00:04:20,809 --> 00:04:22,759
of suspenders, fine.

131
00:04:22,759 --> 00:04:24,499
I don't think it will
be controversial.

132
00:04:24,499 --> 00:04:27,469
I could also add

133
00:04:27,469 --> 00:04:29,899
some language that
would indicate

134
00:04:29,899 --> 00:04:31,069
that once a park is no

135
00:04:31,069 --> 00:04:32,479
longer a park
because it's set,

136
00:04:32,479 --> 00:04:33,599
local government
sells it or

137
00:04:33,599 --> 00:04:35,315
a state park
sells at that.

138
00:04:35,315 --> 00:04:37,669
The disk goes away and

139
00:04:37,669 --> 00:04:39,935
it goes back to the
underlying zone.

140
00:04:39,935 --> 00:04:41,300
Again, it'll be a
question that we

141
00:04:41,300 --> 00:04:43,444
might resolve that issue.

142
00:04:43,444 --> 00:04:45,244
Probably not a bad idea.

143
00:04:45,244 --> 00:04:46,579
I think it's I
think you should

144
00:04:46,579 --> 00:04:48,809
put it in there.
I don't know.

145
00:04:48,850 --> 00:04:51,079
The legislation
doesn't say

146
00:04:51,079 --> 00:04:52,370
anything about
prime and parks.

147
00:04:52,370 --> 00:04:55,429
I mean, they speak only
to the state parks.

148
00:04:55,429 --> 00:04:58,130
On the timelines were

149
00:04:58,130 --> 00:04:59,629
not where do these
timelines we

150
00:04:59,629 --> 00:05:00,380
tried to come up with

151
00:05:00,380 --> 00:05:01,219
some what we thought were

152
00:05:01,219 --> 00:05:03,170
reasonable time
right line.

153
00:05:03,170 --> 00:05:04,550
So local government
could get through this.

154
00:05:04,550 --> 00:05:05,599
And we've heard from

155
00:05:05,599 --> 00:05:07,640
local governments that
they think they need

156
00:05:07,640 --> 00:05:09,200
more time to
make sure they

157
00:05:09,200 --> 00:05:10,039
can give all the notice

158
00:05:10,039 --> 00:05:10,790
and have all the hearings.

159
00:05:10,790 --> 00:05:11,900
And so we're we're fine on

160
00:05:11,900 --> 00:05:13,520
moving them will
work with them.

161
00:05:13,520 --> 00:05:15,979
Before we send out the
next draft on that.

162
00:05:15,979 --> 00:05:17,459
Can I

163
00:05:18,460 --> 00:05:23,855
Going through O2O
and then I get o3o.

164
00:05:23,855 --> 00:05:26,700
And I asked myself
the question.

165
00:05:27,070 --> 00:05:32,914
What if it O2O gets
hung up one item seven.

166
00:05:32,914 --> 00:05:35,615
And it goes to
the commission.

167
00:05:35,615 --> 00:05:37,669
Some resolution.

168
00:05:37,669 --> 00:05:41,244
That could be
several months.

169
00:05:41,244 --> 00:05:44,060
The meantime,
03 Ola kicked

170
00:05:44,060 --> 00:05:49,189
in and the county
city would be going

171
00:05:49,189 --> 00:05:53,809
through a perhaps
useless adoption process

172
00:05:53,809 --> 00:05:56,150
of something that we
might be throwing out

173
00:05:56,150 --> 00:05:58,250
the window when we
get done with ours.

174
00:05:58,250 --> 00:06:00,140
And so it seems to
me there ought to be

175
00:06:00,140 --> 00:06:02,870
some wave when maybe
it already is there,

176
00:06:02,870 --> 00:06:05,285
but trio that it
kicks them out of

177
00:06:05,285 --> 00:06:09,710
any timeline if
it's stuck at LCC.

178
00:06:09,710 --> 00:06:13,339
The legal counsel.
Earlier this week,

179
00:06:13,339 --> 00:06:14,525
I met with West Oil and

180
00:06:14,525 --> 00:06:15,649
she raised the same issue.

181
00:06:15,649 --> 00:06:18,679
We would put language
that under o3o that

182
00:06:18,679 --> 00:06:21,320
says unless the item

183
00:06:21,320 --> 00:06:22,549
has been sent to
the commission.

184
00:06:22,549 --> 00:06:24,169
But as I noted earlier,

185
00:06:24,169 --> 00:06:25,519
legal counsel is
very concerned

186
00:06:25,519 --> 00:06:27,365
about Section seven.

187
00:06:27,365 --> 00:06:29,660
We don't seem to
have a parallel.

188
00:06:29,660 --> 00:06:31,984
And so I'm still

189
00:06:31,984 --> 00:06:32,809
waiting for her to

190
00:06:32,809 --> 00:06:34,039
do a little bit
more research.

191
00:06:34,039 --> 00:06:36,049
Who's gonna look
into There's

192
00:06:36,049 --> 00:06:37,159
all kinds of problems

193
00:06:37,159 --> 00:06:38,300
and start happening
with that.

194
00:06:38,300 --> 00:06:40,969
E.g. state parks as
adopt their master plan.

195
00:06:40,969 --> 00:06:43,394
It's a rule that
somebody can appeal it.

196
00:06:43,394 --> 00:06:45,040
Meanwhile, you'd
be looking at

197
00:06:45,040 --> 00:06:45,879
goal issues and it

198
00:06:45,879 --> 00:06:47,455
might go to the
Court of Appeals.

199
00:06:47,455 --> 00:06:48,534
That was my next point.

200
00:06:48,534 --> 00:06:51,310
I just couldn't see
why we would have

201
00:06:51,310 --> 00:06:53,230
had them go through
a rulemaking process

202
00:06:53,230 --> 00:06:54,439
and then have us review.

203
00:06:54,439 --> 00:06:57,625
I just sorry, you've
already had it.

204
00:06:57,625 --> 00:07:01,330
Just seems to me that we

205
00:07:01,330 --> 00:07:02,950
shouldn't put them
through the agony of

206
00:07:02,950 --> 00:07:05,799
adopting administrative
rules when

207
00:07:05,799 --> 00:07:08,860
we somehow telling him

208
00:07:08,860 --> 00:07:10,854
to and adopt them
or whatever,

209
00:07:10,854 --> 00:07:11,800
we can change it in

210
00:07:11,800 --> 00:07:12,760
a couple of ways right now

211
00:07:12,760 --> 00:07:14,500
what's happening
is it earlier?

212
00:07:14,500 --> 00:07:15,459
Of course, we are

213
00:07:15,459 --> 00:07:17,004
a participant
in the process.

214
00:07:17,004 --> 00:07:18,580
And that's generally what

215
00:07:18,580 --> 00:07:19,884
works with other agencies.

216
00:07:19,884 --> 00:07:22,180
That apartment
would work with,

217
00:07:22,180 --> 00:07:23,529
Parks up until
the very end of

218
00:07:23,529 --> 00:07:25,695
the process and hopefully,

219
00:07:25,695 --> 00:07:27,109
issues that we think

220
00:07:27,109 --> 00:07:29,209
our goal violation would

221
00:07:29,209 --> 00:07:30,290
be resolved in the final

222
00:07:30,290 --> 00:07:31,580
Master Plan would
meet the goals.

223
00:07:31,580 --> 00:07:33,049
But what brought
all of this

224
00:07:33,049 --> 00:07:34,759
into the rule was cellists

225
00:07:34,759 --> 00:07:37,040
indication that
agencies can't

226
00:07:37,040 --> 00:07:39,739
sue eight or generally
don't sue agencies.

227
00:07:39,739 --> 00:07:42,409
And so if we got to
the end and parks

228
00:07:42,409 --> 00:07:45,574
adopted a rule that
violated the state goals.

229
00:07:45,574 --> 00:07:48,484
We don't have recourse
at that point.

230
00:07:48,484 --> 00:07:49,759
It's just our attorney

231
00:07:49,759 --> 00:07:51,664
generals staff
must work it out.

232
00:07:51,664 --> 00:07:54,079
Unless we build
something in like this.

233
00:07:54,079 --> 00:07:57,079
We could build this in,
in a different way.

234
00:07:57,079 --> 00:07:58,639
And the way we do
that is parks,

235
00:07:58,639 --> 00:07:59,809
we get ready to adopt,

236
00:07:59,809 --> 00:08:00,680
everything's done now

237
00:08:00,680 --> 00:08:01,954
there's no other process

238
00:08:01,954 --> 00:08:04,640
except LCD, lcd review.

239
00:08:04,640 --> 00:08:06,350
And we would then wave it

240
00:08:06,350 --> 00:08:07,369
off or if we think there's

241
00:08:07,369 --> 00:08:08,539
an issue ticket to you,

242
00:08:08,539 --> 00:08:10,490
and finally, parks
may adopt it,

243
00:08:10,490 --> 00:08:13,189
but that really
complicates the issue.

244
00:08:13,189 --> 00:08:15,499
Or we could just
eliminate this section

245
00:08:15,499 --> 00:08:16,939
seven entirely and rely

246
00:08:16,939 --> 00:08:18,380
as we do with
other agencies,

247
00:08:18,380 --> 00:08:20,960
rely on the staffs to

248
00:08:20,960 --> 00:08:22,160
informally work this out

249
00:08:22,160 --> 00:08:24,140
prior to parks adopting.

250
00:08:24,140 --> 00:08:28,610
They're basically then put

251
00:08:28,610 --> 00:08:29,689
us in a situation
where we just

252
00:08:29,689 --> 00:08:30,965
go to the Court
of Appeals.

253
00:08:30,965 --> 00:08:33,229
If we really disagreed,
we can't do that.

254
00:08:33,229 --> 00:08:34,250
Apparently.

255
00:08:34,250 --> 00:08:36,679
Sioux and other state
agents, you can.

256
00:08:36,679 --> 00:08:38,879
Oh, it's possible.

257
00:08:40,480 --> 00:08:42,920
Legal, maybe in politic,

258
00:08:42,920 --> 00:08:44,974
but it's certainly
possible

259
00:08:44,974 --> 00:08:48,095
that you've
worked on that.

260
00:08:48,095 --> 00:08:49,729
Let you work on that.

261
00:08:49,729 --> 00:08:51,169
I just wanted to
bring up that we

262
00:08:51,169 --> 00:08:52,655
may we may eliminate

263
00:08:52,655 --> 00:08:54,709
section sentence coming to

264
00:08:54,709 --> 00:08:56,060
it depending on
what semester

265
00:08:56,060 --> 00:08:57,155
tells us we should do,

266
00:08:57,155 --> 00:08:59,690
depending on what we

267
00:08:59,690 --> 00:09:01,249
would like you to
at least do today

268
00:09:01,249 --> 00:09:02,629
is give us some
guidance on

269
00:09:02,629 --> 00:09:03,950
the options because we

270
00:09:03,950 --> 00:09:05,225
may want to
flesh those out.

271
00:09:05,225 --> 00:09:07,740
Ask a question
about option three.

272
00:09:09,670 --> 00:09:14,374
Second sentence
per line down.

273
00:09:14,374 --> 00:09:16,534
Oh, PRD or the
local government

274
00:09:16,534 --> 00:09:19,529
may request commission
resolution.

275
00:09:21,940 --> 00:09:25,669
What if marched upstairs?

276
00:09:25,669 --> 00:09:27,395
Local government
adopts there's

277
00:09:27,395 --> 00:09:30,390
neither of them requests
us to do anything.

278
00:09:31,660 --> 00:09:33,770
Well, then what happened?

279
00:09:33,770 --> 00:09:34,340
Then there must be

280
00:09:34,340 --> 00:09:37,140
no conflict that we
need to resolve.

281
00:09:37,960 --> 00:09:40,415
The conflict will arise

282
00:09:40,415 --> 00:09:47,420
when asks local government
approval, right?

283
00:09:47,420 --> 00:09:49,354
And they don't get it.

284
00:09:49,354 --> 00:09:51,649
So then renowned

285
00:09:51,649 --> 00:09:52,789
option three is
the only thing

286
00:09:52,789 --> 00:09:54,170
that's there and maybe

287
00:09:54,170 --> 00:09:57,209
each adopted
different things.

288
00:09:57,880 --> 00:10:02,239
The option three, you
read option three here.

289
00:10:02,239 --> 00:10:03,770
Just so that they may

290
00:10:03,770 --> 00:10:04,730
request that we
do something.

291
00:10:04,730 --> 00:10:06,320
It doesn't say that
on our own volition,

292
00:10:06,320 --> 00:10:07,355
we can resolve it.

293
00:10:07,355 --> 00:10:08,269
Well, it's not
going to hit

294
00:10:08,269 --> 00:10:09,230
the ground TO parks

295
00:10:09,230 --> 00:10:10,999
asked for a
building permit for

296
00:10:10,999 --> 00:10:12,979
that restroom facility
that's not allowed in

297
00:10:12,979 --> 00:10:13,999
the underlying
zone because

298
00:10:13,999 --> 00:10:15,769
the county didn't
do any action.

299
00:10:15,769 --> 00:10:17,689
And at that point,
the only be

300
00:10:17,689 --> 00:10:18,950
no conflict if they never

301
00:10:18,950 --> 00:10:20,329
try and implement
the master plan,

302
00:10:20,329 --> 00:10:21,200
which is inconsistent with

303
00:10:21,200 --> 00:10:22,385
local zoning,
I would think.

304
00:10:22,385 --> 00:10:23,600
But even if they do try

305
00:10:23,600 --> 00:10:24,710
to implement the
master plan and

306
00:10:24,710 --> 00:10:26,179
local government says no

307
00:10:26,179 --> 00:10:27,244
because they are
building per minute,

308
00:10:27,244 --> 00:10:28,550
then the local
government is

309
00:10:28,550 --> 00:10:30,065
allowed to do that because

310
00:10:30,065 --> 00:10:31,624
parks essentially
had waived

311
00:10:31,624 --> 00:10:33,425
their ability
to come to you.

312
00:10:33,425 --> 00:10:35,014
What this is about.

313
00:10:35,014 --> 00:10:36,499
If there's that conflict,

314
00:10:36,499 --> 00:10:38,779
local government makes
the final call and

315
00:10:38,779 --> 00:10:39,290
then tops of

316
00:10:39,290 --> 00:10:41,075
masterplan that
isn't consistent,

317
00:10:41,075 --> 00:10:43,489
adopts a local
plan provision

318
00:10:43,489 --> 00:10:45,170
that isn't consistent
with the master plan.

319
00:10:45,170 --> 00:10:46,775
Parks can decide
to live with it.

320
00:10:46,775 --> 00:10:47,959
They don't have to come to

321
00:10:47,959 --> 00:10:49,625
you to resolve
that dispute.

322
00:10:49,625 --> 00:10:51,590
If they don't
like it though,

323
00:10:51,590 --> 00:10:52,880
and I think down the
road they're gonna be

324
00:10:52,880 --> 00:10:53,720
denied a permanent
that they

325
00:10:53,720 --> 00:10:54,769
really need to have,

326
00:10:54,769 --> 00:10:56,164
then they could
come to you.

327
00:10:56,164 --> 00:10:57,650
So I suppose one
scenario would be

328
00:10:57,650 --> 00:10:59,000
the adopted
master plan and

329
00:10:59,000 --> 00:11:00,380
an electric continue
to go through

330
00:11:00,380 --> 00:11:03,780
the existing discretionary
review process?

331
00:11:03,970 --> 00:11:06,619
I mean, they may just
decide the master plan

332
00:11:06,619 --> 00:11:08,150
is a planning exercise.

333
00:11:08,150 --> 00:11:09,379
That point.

334
00:11:09,379 --> 00:11:11,615
We're hoping work it out.

335
00:11:11,615 --> 00:11:15,350
By the way, on option
two, there's two.

336
00:11:15,350 --> 00:11:18,619
There's also a take no
action alternative.

337
00:11:18,619 --> 00:11:22,130
The word local government

338
00:11:22,130 --> 00:11:22,759
could adopt something

339
00:11:22,759 --> 00:11:24,049
that's different
and the parks isn't

340
00:11:24,049 --> 00:11:26,524
required to change
to do anything,

341
00:11:26,524 --> 00:11:29,374
or parks could modify
their master plan and

342
00:11:29,374 --> 00:11:31,369
we also would add

343
00:11:31,369 --> 00:11:34,085
a C That of course
parks could go to Luba.

344
00:11:34,085 --> 00:11:35,720
We don't mean to
eliminate that option,

345
00:11:35,720 --> 00:11:36,979
so we might probably

346
00:11:36,979 --> 00:11:38,540
put a C there on
the next draft,

347
00:11:38,540 --> 00:11:41,549
indicating parks
could appeal to Luba.

348
00:11:41,800 --> 00:11:44,749
The key question
whether this is

349
00:11:44,749 --> 00:11:46,100
a land-use decision them

350
00:11:46,100 --> 00:11:48,020
off the land use decision.

351
00:11:48,020 --> 00:11:50,180
Why should it be handled
any differently than

352
00:11:50,180 --> 00:11:54,470
any other startups,
Christa, earlier,

353
00:11:54,470 --> 00:12:01,805
but I see that bottom-line
issue is land use.

354
00:12:01,805 --> 00:12:03,800
Still be a land
use decision

355
00:12:03,800 --> 00:12:04,910
under either option one or

356
00:12:04,910 --> 00:12:07,579
option two or option
through option one,

357
00:12:07,579 --> 00:12:09,079
the land use decision,

358
00:12:09,079 --> 00:12:12,529
which is defined in
the statute to include

359
00:12:12,529 --> 00:12:14,660
a final agency
action so we

360
00:12:14,660 --> 00:12:17,375
can leave the land use
decision at parks.

361
00:12:17,375 --> 00:12:19,369
Parks makes that
adopts that rule.

362
00:12:19,369 --> 00:12:20,945
That is a land
use decision.

363
00:12:20,945 --> 00:12:21,769
And not only that,

364
00:12:21,769 --> 00:12:23,150
it's a binding
land use decision

365
00:12:23,150 --> 00:12:24,649
on the local
government ultimately.

366
00:12:24,649 --> 00:12:25,745
So what that means,

367
00:12:25,745 --> 00:12:29,060
we think with option
one is appeals,

368
00:12:29,060 --> 00:12:30,919
whether from
citizens or anybody

369
00:12:30,919 --> 00:12:33,559
else can only go to
the Court of Appeals.

370
00:12:33,559 --> 00:12:35,584
Local government
is required

371
00:12:35,584 --> 00:12:36,979
to adopt the master plan.

372
00:12:36,979 --> 00:12:40,879
Now, there's

373
00:12:40,879 --> 00:12:43,235
other land use
decisions go to Luba.

374
00:12:43,235 --> 00:12:45,995
Right. But not
state agency rules.

375
00:12:45,995 --> 00:12:47,794
Not stated.

376
00:12:47,794 --> 00:12:50,149
So you're saying
they would challenge

377
00:12:50,149 --> 00:12:51,289
the harks

378
00:12:51,289 --> 00:12:53,480
rulemaking straight

379
00:12:53,480 --> 00:12:55,534
to the Court of
Appeals prayer.

380
00:12:55,534 --> 00:12:56,959
And we I mean,

381
00:12:56,959 --> 00:12:58,520
we intentionally
tried to do this.

382
00:12:58,520 --> 00:13:01,519
It's simply
breaking new ground

383
00:13:01,519 --> 00:13:02,824
legally, but would
be a whole period.

384
00:13:02,824 --> 00:13:04,264
There's a point
of option one

385
00:13:04,264 --> 00:13:05,644
is to eliminate a step.

386
00:13:05,644 --> 00:13:08,555
Eliminate if you
want to do this.

387
00:13:08,555 --> 00:13:11,059
If you want to give
parks the final say,

388
00:13:11,059 --> 00:13:12,140
we tried to
design it so they

389
00:13:12,140 --> 00:13:13,564
could have the final say.

390
00:13:13,564 --> 00:13:15,350
And generally appeals

391
00:13:15,350 --> 00:13:16,639
would be to the
parks rule.

392
00:13:16,639 --> 00:13:17,960
All the testimony would go

393
00:13:17,960 --> 00:13:19,069
before the parks
gets done.

394
00:13:19,069 --> 00:13:20,479
In other words,
we just leave

395
00:13:20,479 --> 00:13:22,355
the process at the
state park rulemaking.

396
00:13:22,355 --> 00:13:23,509
So what are the criteria?

397
00:13:23,509 --> 00:13:25,370
It's not the local
comprehensive plan

398
00:13:25,370 --> 00:13:27,710
and it's all the
goals except for 3.4.

399
00:13:27,710 --> 00:13:28,970
If they are consistent

400
00:13:28,970 --> 00:13:30,155
with their leaves list.

401
00:13:30,155 --> 00:13:32,179
Criteria for the appeal
are the goals and

402
00:13:32,179 --> 00:13:33,755
the master
planning criteria

403
00:13:33,755 --> 00:13:35,089
and any other
necessary statute,

404
00:13:35,089 --> 00:13:37,490
I suppose, but no
local plan policy.

405
00:13:37,490 --> 00:13:40,775
Now, I will also
an option too.

406
00:13:40,775 --> 00:13:42,079
The other thing to recall

407
00:13:42,079 --> 00:13:43,489
is what we've done
with option two is

408
00:13:43,489 --> 00:13:44,690
we've actually
done something we

409
00:13:44,690 --> 00:13:46,429
haven't done with any
interstate agency.

410
00:13:46,429 --> 00:13:48,199
Option two is
crafted to say that

411
00:13:48,199 --> 00:13:50,119
local government does

412
00:13:50,119 --> 00:13:51,634
make the final decision.

413
00:13:51,634 --> 00:13:55,069
But if they disagree with

414
00:13:55,069 --> 00:13:56,840
parks master plan
on something that

415
00:13:56,840 --> 00:13:59,149
has nothing to do
with the state goals,

416
00:13:59,149 --> 00:14:01,625
they lose that ability.

417
00:14:01,625 --> 00:14:03,799
Let me, let me give
you an example.

418
00:14:03,799 --> 00:14:06,005
I think for a
state highway,

419
00:14:06,005 --> 00:14:07,610
the local government
has to approve

420
00:14:07,610 --> 00:14:09,739
that comprehensive
plan amendment

421
00:14:09,739 --> 00:14:10,850
or in some other way

422
00:14:10,850 --> 00:14:12,274
allow that state highway.

423
00:14:12,274 --> 00:14:14,164
But local governments say,

424
00:14:14,164 --> 00:14:14,780
you're going to put

425
00:14:14,780 --> 00:14:16,429
all that Red
Asphalt in there.

426
00:14:16,429 --> 00:14:17,495
We would rather
it was great.

427
00:14:17,495 --> 00:14:18,785
We don't like the color.

428
00:14:18,785 --> 00:14:20,510
They can deny that.

429
00:14:20,510 --> 00:14:22,069
But under this option

430
00:14:22,069 --> 00:14:23,239
to have local government

431
00:14:23,239 --> 00:14:24,500
says We don't
like the color

432
00:14:24,500 --> 00:14:26,180
of the bathrooms
in the park.

433
00:14:26,180 --> 00:14:28,999
Option two would not
allow local governments

434
00:14:28,999 --> 00:14:32,539
to change the master
plan for that reason.

435
00:14:32,539 --> 00:14:34,789
They can only change
the master plan for

436
00:14:34,789 --> 00:14:39,184
a statewide goal reason
or to 96 or 296.

437
00:14:39,184 --> 00:14:41,614
So even option to

438
00:14:41,614 --> 00:14:43,369
limit the authority
of local government.

439
00:14:43,369 --> 00:14:44,899
You don't have to
write it that way.

440
00:14:44,899 --> 00:14:46,355
We wrote it that
way because

441
00:14:46,355 --> 00:14:48,379
the local government
representatives

442
00:14:48,379 --> 00:14:49,985
on the committee had said

443
00:14:49,985 --> 00:14:52,085
that was their main
their main concern.

444
00:14:52,085 --> 00:14:55,220
I just don't see
any point and I

445
00:14:55,220 --> 00:14:56,930
don't understand taking it

446
00:14:56,930 --> 00:14:59,700
out of the
comprehensive plan.

447
00:15:03,040 --> 00:15:06,544
Clarify that.

448
00:15:06,544 --> 00:15:14,194
If you master planning
department authorizes

449
00:15:14,194 --> 00:15:17,989
only those users
that are consistent

450
00:15:17,989 --> 00:15:21,740
with the list rule.

451
00:15:21,740 --> 00:15:23,254
The commission
would have said

452
00:15:23,254 --> 00:15:24,800
that's consistent
with gold.

453
00:15:24,800 --> 00:15:25,909
Three.

454
00:15:25,909 --> 00:15:30,320
Local government
did not say,

455
00:15:30,320 --> 00:15:31,505
we're not going to approve

456
00:15:31,505 --> 00:15:33,049
your master
plan because we

457
00:15:33,049 --> 00:15:34,639
don't like the
list of users.

458
00:15:34,639 --> 00:15:36,275
We think Goal three,

459
00:15:36,275 --> 00:15:40,280
making an independent
validation to go three.

460
00:15:40,280 --> 00:15:43,379
Further limit the
Elizabeth used.

461
00:15:47,110 --> 00:15:50,300
We're not going to
approve the master plan

462
00:15:50,300 --> 00:15:56,150
because it could
say that in

463
00:15:56,150 --> 00:15:57,799
parks could go to Luba and

464
00:15:57,799 --> 00:16:00,184
argue that our rule

465
00:16:00,184 --> 00:16:02,389
said that math that clock
I'm as county could

466
00:16:02,389 --> 00:16:04,759
only say that if goal
three was violated,

467
00:16:04,759 --> 00:16:06,049
Luba would then decide

468
00:16:06,049 --> 00:16:08,180
whether the proposal
from parks did or

469
00:16:08,180 --> 00:16:10,100
did not violate
goal three of

470
00:16:10,100 --> 00:16:12,515
Luba decided it didn't
violate goal three.

471
00:16:12,515 --> 00:16:13,940
Black in this county
would not have

472
00:16:13,940 --> 00:16:16,320
been able to
limit that list.

473
00:16:16,750 --> 00:16:18,379
I think they would have

474
00:16:18,379 --> 00:16:19,775
to challenge power rule.

475
00:16:19,775 --> 00:16:21,110
And if they if

476
00:16:21,110 --> 00:16:22,520
they wait and if
they don't challenge

477
00:16:22,520 --> 00:16:23,749
our rule is
inconsistent with

478
00:16:23,749 --> 00:16:26,339
goal three. I think
it's too late.

479
00:16:26,340 --> 00:16:28,215
Still like a denial.

480
00:16:28,215 --> 00:16:30,385
They'd have to go to
Luba and hopefully

481
00:16:30,385 --> 00:16:34,119
quickly throw your point.

482
00:16:34,119 --> 00:16:35,620
Your point was the taking

483
00:16:35,620 --> 00:16:36,670
the master of
the complaint

484
00:16:36,670 --> 00:16:37,360
out of the process,

485
00:16:37,360 --> 00:16:38,920
you would add a
third criteria,

486
00:16:38,920 --> 00:16:39,910
even under option two,

487
00:16:39,910 --> 00:16:42,174
which binds with
the current plan.

488
00:16:42,174 --> 00:16:45,295
I don't understand
the land-use action,

489
00:16:45,295 --> 00:16:50,484
not the comprehensive
plan. Opted out.

490
00:16:50,484 --> 00:16:52,449
Which one again, which

491
00:16:52,449 --> 00:16:54,414
makes sure we're
understanding you.

492
00:16:54,414 --> 00:16:56,499
Really two criteria,
they get denied for

493
00:16:56,499 --> 00:17:01,120
all goals are the only
way that you have

494
00:17:01,120 --> 00:17:04,509
to judge this plan
of I it seems to me

495
00:17:04,509 --> 00:17:05,859
it has to be awesome in

496
00:17:05,859 --> 00:17:08,245
compliance with the
comprehensive plan.

497
00:17:08,245 --> 00:17:09,480
The problem with that,

498
00:17:09,480 --> 00:17:11,000
my whole point of this is

499
00:17:11,000 --> 00:17:12,290
to ask the local
government

500
00:17:12,290 --> 00:17:14,000
to amend their comp plan.

501
00:17:14,000 --> 00:17:15,515
It will it will.

502
00:17:15,515 --> 00:17:17,330
Parks would not
even approach

503
00:17:17,330 --> 00:17:18,769
a local government
to approve

504
00:17:18,769 --> 00:17:20,780
a master plan if it's
already allowed.

505
00:17:20,780 --> 00:17:23,600
So every single time
we're doing this,

506
00:17:23,600 --> 00:17:25,369
it's inconsistent
with the master plan

507
00:17:25,369 --> 00:17:26,809
or there's really
no reason to have

508
00:17:26,809 --> 00:17:31,475
this action. I'm
sorry. Yeah.

509
00:17:31,475 --> 00:17:32,449
Well, and I actually had

510
00:17:32,449 --> 00:17:33,320
another answer which was

511
00:17:33,320 --> 00:17:35,225
also a matter of
states interests.

512
00:17:35,225 --> 00:17:36,995
I think by if we adopt
that option two,

513
00:17:36,995 --> 00:17:38,090
we're basically saying

514
00:17:38,090 --> 00:17:40,519
that for these facilities,

515
00:17:40,519 --> 00:17:42,635
we've made a determination

516
00:17:42,635 --> 00:17:44,510
that as a matter of
states interests,

517
00:17:44,510 --> 00:17:47,720
those two sets of
criteria control.

518
00:17:47,720 --> 00:17:49,430
That's the effective least

519
00:17:49,430 --> 00:17:50,269
of what we're doing.

520
00:17:50,269 --> 00:17:52,439
Together with
Bob's pulling.

521
00:17:54,040 --> 00:17:56,539
We have a precedent
for we've done that in

522
00:17:56,539 --> 00:17:58,399
aggregate in the
goal five rule, e.g.

523
00:17:58,399 --> 00:18:00,349
the complaint policies
largely fall off

524
00:18:00,349 --> 00:18:02,450
the table because the
state's interests was

525
00:18:02,450 --> 00:18:04,129
determined to be
so important in

526
00:18:04,129 --> 00:18:06,110
citing these difficult
facilities that we

527
00:18:06,110 --> 00:18:08,524
pulled the plan the pocket

528
00:18:08,524 --> 00:18:10,564
of governments as
a denial option.

529
00:18:10,564 --> 00:18:11,719
I still thank
you for that.

530
00:18:11,719 --> 00:18:18,050
A lot of scars for
dealing with aggregate.

531
00:18:18,050 --> 00:18:18,695
Thank you.

532
00:18:18,695 --> 00:18:20,150
The reason I
raised this is

533
00:18:20,150 --> 00:18:21,590
just wanted to point out

534
00:18:21,590 --> 00:18:22,864
that option two is

535
00:18:22,864 --> 00:18:24,349
in some sense it's
a compromise.

536
00:18:24,349 --> 00:18:26,764
I mean, it isn't
super exciting.

537
00:18:26,764 --> 00:18:28,430
But it doesn't give local

538
00:18:28,430 --> 00:18:28,969
governments

539
00:18:28,969 --> 00:18:30,289
the same authority
they have today.

540
00:18:30,289 --> 00:18:31,879
It does limit some of

541
00:18:31,879 --> 00:18:33,830
their authority of
local government.

542
00:18:33,830 --> 00:18:35,329
But at the same
time it leaves

543
00:18:35,329 --> 00:18:36,499
a decision at
the local level,

544
00:18:36,499 --> 00:18:37,910
especially the decision as

545
00:18:37,910 --> 00:18:40,295
to how the statewide
goals are applied.

546
00:18:40,295 --> 00:18:42,934
You are localized
12 or three.

547
00:18:42,934 --> 00:18:44,630
That would be
helpful today?

548
00:18:44,630 --> 00:18:46,580
Yes. I mean, you

549
00:18:46,580 --> 00:18:52,429
can I think it'll
be useful to

550
00:18:52,429 --> 00:18:57,109
have some sympathy
or some sympathy for

551
00:18:57,109 --> 00:19:04,939
these nice expressions
of opinion.

552
00:19:04,939 --> 00:19:07,039
And you're right. We
don't have to decide.

553
00:19:07,039 --> 00:19:09,000
We can take
more testimony.

554
00:19:12,340 --> 00:19:14,569
Well, I for one would
be comfortable with,

555
00:19:14,569 --> 00:19:19,970
two would be more, much
more uncomfortable,

556
00:19:19,970 --> 00:19:20,960
although I suppose
I might be

557
00:19:20,960 --> 00:19:22,309
persuaded with
the other two,

558
00:19:22,309 --> 00:19:26,599
but I'm very uncomfortable

559
00:19:26,599 --> 00:19:29,675
removing local government
from that process.

560
00:19:29,675 --> 00:19:31,370
And secondly, I have
difficulty with

561
00:19:31,370 --> 00:19:34,819
super exciting
precedent because I

562
00:19:34,819 --> 00:19:36,019
think it'd becomes
just that a

563
00:19:36,019 --> 00:19:37,459
precedent and we
haven't said it yet

564
00:19:37,459 --> 00:19:42,029
by enlarge and I would
be reluctant to do so.

565
00:19:42,100 --> 00:19:44,539
I guess I have a problem.

566
00:19:44,539 --> 00:19:49,699
I have a two is
three at this point.

567
00:19:49,699 --> 00:19:53,239
And that only one
of you that I think

568
00:19:53,239 --> 00:19:58,859
of the nimby problem.

569
00:19:59,080 --> 00:20:01,759
You have an NP problem.

570
00:20:01,759 --> 00:20:03,679
Because every other
applicant, Laurel,

571
00:20:03,679 --> 00:20:05,819
No. Well, that's true.

572
00:20:06,310 --> 00:20:10,550
There is a greater
state interests.

573
00:20:10,550 --> 00:20:14,554
And all the three
does is just say,

574
00:20:14,554 --> 00:20:15,919
if you guys can't
resolve it,

575
00:20:15,919 --> 00:20:17,600
then we will resolve.

576
00:20:17,600 --> 00:20:22,385
You think we're better
than Luba? They can.

577
00:20:22,385 --> 00:20:23,255
Do.

578
00:20:23,255 --> 00:20:25,610
We know what? We know
what our rule means?

579
00:20:25,610 --> 00:20:27,980
Luba tries to
guess what I mean.

580
00:20:27,980 --> 00:20:30,319
But I guess I would
only offer bill as

581
00:20:30,319 --> 00:20:31,969
a practical matter
coming to us as

582
00:20:31,969 --> 00:20:33,289
opposed to the option

583
00:20:33,289 --> 00:20:35,390
to presents a real
problem to somebody,

584
00:20:35,390 --> 00:20:37,550
be at an agricultural
interests or

585
00:20:37,550 --> 00:20:41,269
any other opponent of
a plan called nimby

586
00:20:41,269 --> 00:20:42,980
or otherwise in that come

587
00:20:42,980 --> 00:20:44,810
into s goes to the Court
of Appeals and it's

588
00:20:44,810 --> 00:20:46,549
a much more
difficult row to

589
00:20:46,549 --> 00:20:50,549
hoe to get your concerns.

590
00:20:50,620 --> 00:20:52,024
Yeah.

591
00:20:52,024 --> 00:20:52,370
Yeah.

592
00:20:52,370 --> 00:20:53,960
And people form shop.

593
00:20:53,960 --> 00:20:55,040
They'll always
choose us if

594
00:20:55,040 --> 00:20:56,900
you're of that line.

595
00:20:56,900 --> 00:20:58,100
So I guess my sense is I

596
00:20:58,100 --> 00:20:59,749
think I'm persuaded
that there are

597
00:20:59,749 --> 00:21:02,149
enough potential
impacts associated

598
00:21:02,149 --> 00:21:04,249
with some of
these facilities,

599
00:21:04,249 --> 00:21:05,705
particularly in
rural areas,

600
00:21:05,705 --> 00:21:09,305
that there ought to be
making these claims.

601
00:21:09,305 --> 00:21:11,089
And if that's true,

602
00:21:11,089 --> 00:21:13,400
it seems to me the
local government

603
00:21:13,400 --> 00:21:14,479
Luba proceeding and

604
00:21:14,479 --> 00:21:18,079
processes is
more appropriate

605
00:21:18,079 --> 00:21:19,489
in this process for

606
00:21:19,489 --> 00:21:21,439
resolving those
site-specific.

607
00:21:21,439 --> 00:21:24,139
That's exactly what
it is. In this case.

608
00:21:24,139 --> 00:21:26,880
Case-by-case,
site-specific.

609
00:21:27,040 --> 00:21:30,664
If you do want us to
pursue option three,

610
00:21:30,664 --> 00:21:31,909
mean you've raised one of

611
00:21:31,909 --> 00:21:33,140
the issues that came

612
00:21:33,140 --> 00:21:35,825
up in option three.

613
00:21:35,825 --> 00:21:37,759
We do need to do some
more thinking about

614
00:21:37,759 --> 00:21:39,620
it. Want us to do that?

615
00:21:39,620 --> 00:21:43,160
We will because some
of these it's unclear.

616
00:21:43,160 --> 00:21:45,679
Apparently, the
commission parties

617
00:21:45,679 --> 00:21:46,790
agree to have a commission

618
00:21:46,790 --> 00:21:48,454
as a binding arbitrator.

619
00:21:48,454 --> 00:21:49,910
But I don't believe that

620
00:21:49,910 --> 00:21:51,049
can take away
the ability of

621
00:21:51,049 --> 00:21:53,734
a local citizen to
nevertheless appeal.

622
00:21:53,734 --> 00:21:56,090
So we haven't worked
that out yet.

623
00:21:56,090 --> 00:21:57,424
We need to do that.

624
00:21:57,424 --> 00:21:59,344
You might you might be
deciding the issue.

625
00:21:59,344 --> 00:22:00,170
I guess it's other than

626
00:22:00,170 --> 00:22:01,534
a contested
case preceding.

627
00:22:01,534 --> 00:22:02,929
Meanwhile, somebody
else might have

628
00:22:02,929 --> 00:22:04,595
appealed a local
decision to Luba.

629
00:22:04,595 --> 00:22:07,084
So it's complicated, it's

630
00:22:07,084 --> 00:22:08,389
legally tricky
at something

631
00:22:08,389 --> 00:22:09,694
we haven't tried before.

632
00:22:09,694 --> 00:22:10,909
It does also put you in

633
00:22:10,909 --> 00:22:12,080
the role of a
planning commission

634
00:22:12,080 --> 00:22:12,469
and a lot of

635
00:22:12,469 --> 00:22:15,410
ways something you were
uncomfortable with.

636
00:22:15,410 --> 00:22:17,015
And when we talked
about aggregate, e.g.

637
00:22:17,015 --> 00:22:18,980
because you will
then perhaps be

638
00:22:18,980 --> 00:22:21,739
deciding whether
a picnic table,

639
00:22:21,739 --> 00:22:22,790
it'd be moved 20 ft

640
00:22:22,790 --> 00:22:24,080
this way or that
way because that's

641
00:22:24,080 --> 00:22:25,610
the dispute and you

642
00:22:25,610 --> 00:22:27,169
arguably wouldn't get
very many of these,

643
00:22:27,169 --> 00:22:28,759
but that's the
kind of nature of

644
00:22:28,759 --> 00:22:29,539
some of the decisions you

645
00:22:29,539 --> 00:22:31,589
might be trying
to resolve.

646
00:22:32,580 --> 00:22:35,154
So under option three,

647
00:22:35,154 --> 00:22:37,990
county could deny parks

648
00:22:37,990 --> 00:22:39,909
would have to
appeal to Luba

649
00:22:39,909 --> 00:22:41,469
and they could
come to us and

650
00:22:41,469 --> 00:22:45,114
request the review
process as well.

651
00:22:45,114 --> 00:22:46,599
Either they can do both.

652
00:22:46,599 --> 00:22:48,519
We didn't intend that
they could do both,

653
00:22:48,519 --> 00:22:50,019
but it was possible
it doesn't narrow

654
00:22:50,019 --> 00:22:52,270
the criteria that local
government can use.

655
00:22:52,270 --> 00:22:54,160
Now the plan policies
are back on the table.

656
00:22:54,160 --> 00:22:56,379
If you left, option
three is crap.

657
00:22:56,379 --> 00:22:58,839
We need a lot more
work on options me,

658
00:22:58,839 --> 00:22:59,710
but if you are interested,

659
00:22:59,710 --> 00:23:00,745
we can try to do that.

660
00:23:00,745 --> 00:23:01,720
I mean, there might be

661
00:23:01,720 --> 00:23:02,860
a way to do this so that

662
00:23:02,860 --> 00:23:05,275
you can insert
yourself in a dispute.

663
00:23:05,275 --> 00:23:07,930
And I don't think this
is quite does it?

664
00:23:07,930 --> 00:23:09,850
If you want to do
that, let us know

665
00:23:09,850 --> 00:23:12,320
and we'll work
on that as well.

666
00:23:13,630 --> 00:23:18,110
Do we do we want
the extra grief?

667
00:23:18,110 --> 00:23:20,195
I don't I think that's

668
00:23:20,195 --> 00:23:23,129
enough grief without
adding to our list.

669
00:23:29,230 --> 00:23:31,880
We're not asking you
to actually make

670
00:23:31,880 --> 00:23:33,829
a decision voting today,

671
00:23:33,829 --> 00:23:35,300
but I guess we
do need to know

672
00:23:35,300 --> 00:23:37,505
what a shout option three,

673
00:23:37,505 --> 00:23:38,540
go forward with many

674
00:23:38,540 --> 00:23:39,365
other one we could leave,

675
00:23:39,365 --> 00:23:41,539
you can leave all of
them on the table.

676
00:23:41,539 --> 00:23:43,309
There's many problems as

677
00:23:43,309 --> 00:23:44,150
there are with three.

678
00:23:44,150 --> 00:23:45,590
And if you want
to go to table,

679
00:23:45,590 --> 00:23:47,999
you need to flesh
it out. Otherwise.

680
00:23:50,950 --> 00:23:53,850
Sorry to be persuaded.

681
00:23:54,280 --> 00:23:59,550
Choose better than
if you speak up.

682
00:24:01,150 --> 00:24:05,970
Anybody in the audience
couldn't see us.

683
00:24:06,310 --> 00:24:07,460
Ms.

684
00:24:07,460 --> 00:24:11,075
Chair, I think
two keeps it

685
00:24:11,075 --> 00:24:14,599
closest to the most
familiar process

686
00:24:14,599 --> 00:24:16,355
that we know far as
we're concerned.

687
00:24:16,355 --> 00:24:17,929
And I think it keeps it.

688
00:24:17,929 --> 00:24:19,669
And I think Steve
really said it

689
00:24:19,669 --> 00:24:21,050
well in terms
of if there's

690
00:24:21,050 --> 00:24:23,240
a site-specific
dispute that

691
00:24:23,240 --> 00:24:25,130
the Luba is the
best approach

692
00:24:25,130 --> 00:24:27,359
to resolve that issue.

693
00:24:32,010 --> 00:24:34,269
Well, I should
speak up here at

694
00:24:34,269 --> 00:24:35,919
Dunbar has been a
great debate and I

695
00:24:35,919 --> 00:24:39,579
enjoyed her lean

696
00:24:39,579 --> 00:24:40,959
certainly Tor
adoption three,

697
00:24:40,959 --> 00:24:42,250
it seemed to me that
we were the one

698
00:24:42,250 --> 00:24:43,690
that should be
the arbiter of

699
00:24:43,690 --> 00:24:48,400
what I think of the work.

700
00:24:48,400 --> 00:24:51,490
They were persuaded that

701
00:24:51,490 --> 00:24:52,974
it really can handle it.

702
00:24:52,974 --> 00:24:55,870
Now, I guess the question
I still have what

703
00:24:55,870 --> 00:24:57,759
happened is that they

704
00:24:57,759 --> 00:24:59,184
normally just
kick things back.

705
00:24:59,184 --> 00:25:00,609
Where did they
kick it back to in

706
00:25:00,609 --> 00:25:03,910
this uncomfortable back
to the local county

707
00:25:03,910 --> 00:25:09,429
or more because Buffalo
again works there.

708
00:25:09,429 --> 00:25:10,450
I suspect it would

709
00:25:10,450 --> 00:25:11,619
work here and
then certainly

710
00:25:11,619 --> 00:25:12,730
wouldn't believe
this commission

711
00:25:12,730 --> 00:25:14,414
of headaches.

712
00:25:14,414 --> 00:25:16,280
I get concerned
sometimes that we

713
00:25:16,280 --> 00:25:17,210
seem to be sitting here

714
00:25:17,210 --> 00:25:18,380
as a planning commission.

715
00:25:18,380 --> 00:25:19,850
I don't really
think that's what

716
00:25:19,850 --> 00:25:23,479
we're certainly
that the testimony

717
00:25:23,479 --> 00:25:25,745
we had was all in
favor of option

718
00:25:25,745 --> 00:25:30,480
to read the novel.

719
00:25:32,410 --> 00:25:34,415
Let's see.

720
00:25:34,415 --> 00:25:37,055
Who supported option
three a moment.

721
00:25:37,055 --> 00:25:38,824
Nobody, nobody.

722
00:25:38,824 --> 00:25:42,239
More parts and parts.

723
00:25:43,360 --> 00:25:45,364
I understand that.

724
00:25:45,364 --> 00:25:47,060
I think I think that got

725
00:25:47,060 --> 00:25:49,250
lost in the shuffle
when everybody

726
00:25:49,250 --> 00:25:53,944
else is not sympathize
with parks.

727
00:25:53,944 --> 00:25:56,629
Basically, I don't think
people shouldn't be

728
00:25:56,629 --> 00:25:59,570
making a decision in
the case of a dispute.

729
00:25:59,570 --> 00:26:03,140
Either Luba forest
in my in my mind.

730
00:26:03,140 --> 00:26:08,585
And I'm sure the

731
00:26:08,585 --> 00:26:10,475
as I understand it
from the park staff,

732
00:26:10,475 --> 00:26:12,304
if you don't
adopt option one,

733
00:26:12,304 --> 00:26:14,909
then their preferences
option three,

734
00:26:18,250 --> 00:26:20,390
journey to excuse

735
00:26:20,390 --> 00:26:21,995
my side, I need to
get an allergy.

736
00:26:21,995 --> 00:26:23,449
Shots.

737
00:26:23,449 --> 00:26:25,189
Go to lunch and

738
00:26:25,189 --> 00:26:26,239
you're caught in
the accident.

739
00:26:26,239 --> 00:26:27,169
I'm hearing some list he

740
00:26:27,169 --> 00:26:29,159
gotten get this morning.

741
00:26:36,880 --> 00:26:41,069
I think we all need
allergy shots for this.

742
00:26:41,110 --> 00:26:43,579
I think our question
is just a matter of

743
00:26:43,579 --> 00:26:45,154
whether we want to
definitely rule out one,

744
00:26:45,154 --> 00:26:46,670
rule out one and then

745
00:26:46,670 --> 00:26:49,085
say bring 2.3
big back to us.

746
00:26:49,085 --> 00:26:51,334
I mean, that's
what I'm hearing.

747
00:26:51,334 --> 00:26:52,849
Where do we want to?

748
00:26:52,849 --> 00:26:54,904
That's what I would say.

749
00:26:54,904 --> 00:26:56,659
That would be an option,

750
00:26:56,659 --> 00:26:57,169
but I just don't know

751
00:26:57,169 --> 00:26:57,619
where we come up with

752
00:26:57,619 --> 00:26:58,610
a staff through all that.

753
00:26:58,610 --> 00:27:00,200
I didn't realize there
was a problem with

754
00:27:00,200 --> 00:27:01,729
three until you start
talking about it.

755
00:27:01,729 --> 00:27:03,169
And I don't know,

756
00:27:03,169 --> 00:27:04,220
I probably want to
put you through

757
00:27:04,220 --> 00:27:06,199
all our work to try and

758
00:27:06,199 --> 00:27:07,849
fix sorry if
indeed most of

759
00:27:07,849 --> 00:27:10,205
the Commission's
already to go for two.

760
00:27:10,205 --> 00:27:13,159
Why would my comment
would be why

761
00:27:13,159 --> 00:27:14,270
is the parks interested

762
00:27:14,270 --> 00:27:15,530
in the alternative three,

763
00:27:15,530 --> 00:27:18,214
if if they didn't
like to know.

764
00:27:18,214 --> 00:27:20,999
A lesser evil for them.

765
00:27:21,340 --> 00:27:23,629
Well, I think, you know,

766
00:27:23,629 --> 00:27:26,899
when you think about if

767
00:27:26,899 --> 00:27:30,209
you compare periodic
review with posting,

768
00:27:30,670 --> 00:27:33,320
we often, when we're

769
00:27:33,320 --> 00:27:35,690
talking about
the benefits,

770
00:27:35,690 --> 00:27:37,879
the advantages and
disadvantages of

771
00:27:37,879 --> 00:27:39,979
those two groups
with governments.

772
00:27:39,979 --> 00:27:42,170
We do say there are
some advantages

773
00:27:42,170 --> 00:27:43,939
to doing a plan amendment

774
00:27:43,939 --> 00:27:45,424
to the periodic
review process.

775
00:27:45,424 --> 00:27:49,010
And that is, it comes
here rather than Luba.

776
00:27:49,010 --> 00:27:51,995
And one of the
advantages is it is not

777
00:27:51,995 --> 00:27:54,049
a terribly
legalistic process

778
00:27:54,049 --> 00:27:56,550
here as compared to Luba.

779
00:27:57,100 --> 00:27:59,639
Luba.

780
00:27:59,890 --> 00:28:03,080
Give you an interpretation

781
00:28:03,080 --> 00:28:06,500
and here you get

782
00:28:06,500 --> 00:28:09,919
an LCD is the interpretation
of an LCC rule.

783
00:28:09,919 --> 00:28:12,770
That's one of the
advantages to

784
00:28:12,770 --> 00:28:15,955
periodic review
over hosting plan.

785
00:28:15,955 --> 00:28:18,709
And arguably
those same points

786
00:28:18,709 --> 00:28:20,975
can be made in this.

787
00:28:20,975 --> 00:28:23,599
So you might want to

788
00:28:23,599 --> 00:28:27,110
get perks to give
you the argument,

789
00:28:27,110 --> 00:28:29,339
but that's the
argument I think.

790
00:28:30,220 --> 00:28:33,200
A good example is the
next agenda item with

791
00:28:33,200 --> 00:28:37,410
Goal 11 in that case
that was read sideways.

792
00:28:38,290 --> 00:28:41,420
There's an example
where the rule was

793
00:28:41,420 --> 00:28:42,829
interpreted in a
way inconsistent

794
00:28:42,829 --> 00:28:44,449
with his permission.

795
00:28:44,449 --> 00:28:46,939
On the other hand,
this and you're right,

796
00:28:46,939 --> 00:28:49,670
if this were 14 or

797
00:28:49,670 --> 00:28:50,959
a couple of the
other goals

798
00:28:50,959 --> 00:28:52,279
that have a lot

799
00:28:52,279 --> 00:28:56,209
more subjective
policy behind them.

800
00:28:56,209 --> 00:28:58,159
I would be more
persuaded to

801
00:28:58,159 --> 00:28:59,839
throw us back our way.

802
00:28:59,839 --> 00:29:01,999
But this rule
itself doesn't

803
00:29:01,999 --> 00:29:03,139
lend itself to a lot of

804
00:29:03,139 --> 00:29:05,309
Berlin interpretation.

805
00:29:05,590 --> 00:29:07,879
Objective is a lot of

806
00:29:07,879 --> 00:29:09,469
our rules and
therefore I'd be more

807
00:29:09,469 --> 00:29:11,060
willing to let away with

808
00:29:11,060 --> 00:29:13,769
it. Unlike the
other cases.

809
00:29:14,050 --> 00:29:17,279
I think you're
right periodically,

810
00:29:17,350 --> 00:29:21,680
litigants that process is

811
00:29:21,680 --> 00:29:23,854
processed correctly, is
less likely to go to.

812
00:29:23,854 --> 00:29:26,944
This brings up the fact
that we could also do

813
00:29:26,944 --> 00:29:30,169
Option three while
adopting option two.

814
00:29:30,169 --> 00:29:33,499
And that is
that right now,

815
00:29:33,499 --> 00:29:33,950
if there's

816
00:29:33,950 --> 00:29:36,290
a disagreement at
local governments,

817
00:29:36,290 --> 00:29:38,509
has that final say
provided there as

818
00:29:38,509 --> 00:29:40,999
a goal violation or

819
00:29:40,999 --> 00:29:42,829
the state parks and
local governments

820
00:29:42,829 --> 00:29:45,059
see the goal differently.

821
00:29:45,070 --> 00:29:47,404
Parks can appeal to loop.

822
00:29:47,404 --> 00:29:50,330
We could, I would
be able to explore,

823
00:29:50,330 --> 00:29:51,170
I think we could write

824
00:29:51,170 --> 00:29:52,114
something there that says

825
00:29:52,114 --> 00:29:53,869
or parks could bring

826
00:29:53,869 --> 00:29:56,255
this to you at the
next periodic review.

827
00:29:56,255 --> 00:29:58,130
So they could
live with what

828
00:29:58,130 --> 00:29:59,030
local government has done

829
00:29:59,030 --> 00:30:00,425
until periodic review.

830
00:30:00,425 --> 00:30:03,379
And then raise this issue

831
00:30:03,379 --> 00:30:04,835
again at periodic review,

832
00:30:04,835 --> 00:30:06,800
which would mean that
ultimately you would

833
00:30:06,800 --> 00:30:08,885
be trying to
resolve that issue,

834
00:30:08,885 --> 00:30:09,919
but you would do so in the

835
00:30:09,919 --> 00:30:11,420
context of
periodic review,

836
00:30:11,420 --> 00:30:12,935
we wouldn't have to invent

837
00:30:12,935 --> 00:30:14,450
some new process for

838
00:30:14,450 --> 00:30:15,649
you to look at
these goal issues

839
00:30:15,649 --> 00:30:19,669
because we
automatically puts

840
00:30:19,669 --> 00:30:21,574
it on their
potential agenda for

841
00:30:21,574 --> 00:30:24,170
periodic review that
may have to wait

842
00:30:24,170 --> 00:30:28,310
ten years to seven or
something like that.

843
00:30:28,310 --> 00:30:29,870
But but that would

844
00:30:29,870 --> 00:30:35,579
be definitely
worth exploring.

845
00:30:38,640 --> 00:30:41,065
I think the only other
thing that there's

846
00:30:41,065 --> 00:30:42,309
been a major
issue today is

847
00:30:42,309 --> 00:30:43,810
whether you would be
inclined to alter

848
00:30:43,810 --> 00:30:46,285
the useless to
under the goal.

849
00:30:46,285 --> 00:30:48,550
I didn't hear
any testimony

850
00:30:48,550 --> 00:30:50,020
asking if anybody well,

851
00:30:50,020 --> 00:30:51,370
other than parks
asking for

852
00:30:51,370 --> 00:30:54,829
the data that for
specific things and

853
00:30:55,110 --> 00:30:59,035
Commissioners
would like to

854
00:30:59,035 --> 00:31:07,705
lists which page that
was useless shows up.

855
00:31:07,705 --> 00:31:09,535
It's the same list in

856
00:31:09,535 --> 00:31:12,610
both their proposed
alternative,

857
00:31:12,610 --> 00:31:15,100
70-page fine H4.

858
00:31:15,100 --> 00:31:16,780
And at the end, I'll I'll

859
00:31:16,780 --> 00:31:18,610
note that Parks has
asked for three things.

860
00:31:18,610 --> 00:31:18,820
Yeah.

861
00:31:18,820 --> 00:31:19,479
But where where is

862
00:31:19,479 --> 00:31:20,830
their list of things
they've asked for?

863
00:31:20,830 --> 00:31:22,309
I'm just Forgot.

864
00:31:22,309 --> 00:31:23,704
I'll just find
their letter

865
00:31:23,704 --> 00:31:24,814
is kept find the button.

866
00:31:24,814 --> 00:31:26,690
But it's hard to
interpret because

867
00:31:26,690 --> 00:31:29,180
their letter has
sorted groups of uses.

868
00:31:29,180 --> 00:31:30,529
But I can I can clarify

869
00:31:30,529 --> 00:31:32,134
that we have
discussed this.

870
00:31:32,134 --> 00:31:33,620
There are three
things at parks would

871
00:31:33,620 --> 00:31:34,999
like they would
like to have

872
00:31:34,999 --> 00:31:37,670
lodging up to
25 units only

873
00:31:37,670 --> 00:31:45,155
associated with
campgrounds, retreats.

874
00:31:45,155 --> 00:31:46,819
They would they
would like to

875
00:31:46,819 --> 00:31:49,519
have swimming
pools, again,

876
00:31:49,519 --> 00:31:53,720
associated with
retreat area and

877
00:31:53,720 --> 00:31:55,850
hard hard courts like

878
00:31:55,850 --> 00:31:57,079
tennis courts
or something of

879
00:31:57,079 --> 00:31:59,539
that nature associated
with the retreat area.

880
00:31:59,539 --> 00:32:02,359
Those are not on the list.

881
00:32:02,359 --> 00:32:05,089
Lodging, I think we've
discussed quite a bit,

882
00:32:05,089 --> 00:32:07,519
are concerned
about intensive

883
00:32:07,519 --> 00:32:09,080
recreation uses
is that it's been

884
00:32:09,080 --> 00:32:11,044
our experience that
local governments

885
00:32:11,044 --> 00:32:13,129
may or would

886
00:32:13,129 --> 00:32:15,229
typically seek
inexpensive land

887
00:32:15,229 --> 00:32:15,679
outside of

888
00:32:15,679 --> 00:32:17,389
an urban growth boundary
to provide for,

889
00:32:17,389 --> 00:32:19,100
say, an aquatic center

890
00:32:19,100 --> 00:32:23,140
or tennis courts
or ball fields,

891
00:32:23,140 --> 00:32:25,264
several things like that.

892
00:32:25,264 --> 00:32:28,144
So you might be
concerned that

893
00:32:28,144 --> 00:32:30,079
if a local government

894
00:32:30,079 --> 00:32:31,520
has to do is
purchased some land,

895
00:32:31,520 --> 00:32:32,780
and this just
came up, e.g.

896
00:32:32,780 --> 00:32:35,660
with a squiggle
outside the boundary,

897
00:32:35,660 --> 00:32:37,729
designated a local park,

898
00:32:37,729 --> 00:32:39,619
and then without an
exception to go with 3.4,

899
00:32:39,619 --> 00:32:41,645
could build the the

900
00:32:41,645 --> 00:32:44,045
ball fields Aquatic
Center intensive.

901
00:32:44,045 --> 00:32:46,385
Uses to serve that UVB.

902
00:32:46,385 --> 00:32:47,599
You'd have a lot of

903
00:32:47,599 --> 00:32:49,069
commuting in and
out of the UVB.

904
00:32:49,069 --> 00:32:50,600
So for that reason,

905
00:32:50,600 --> 00:32:52,204
we took it off the list.

906
00:32:52,204 --> 00:32:53,420
I think local governments

907
00:32:53,420 --> 00:32:54,620
may be motivated
to do that.

908
00:32:54,620 --> 00:32:57,125
I, I don t think parks
would be motivated.

909
00:32:57,125 --> 00:32:59,150
Motivated, but in

910
00:32:59,150 --> 00:33:00,380
the spirit of
trying to keep

911
00:33:00,380 --> 00:33:02,130
the same list
we also removed

912
00:33:02,130 --> 00:33:05,279
from the list with
respect to state park.

913
00:33:16,150 --> 00:33:18,379
We now need a
decision today,

914
00:33:18,379 --> 00:33:22,879
but I don't know if
you'd be happy to do so.

915
00:33:22,879 --> 00:33:24,829
One way that we could
make sure that we

916
00:33:24,829 --> 00:33:26,720
get testimony on
for next time would

917
00:33:26,720 --> 00:33:29,569
be two would have been
the rule and that goes

918
00:33:29,569 --> 00:33:33,620
out so that it's
highlighted here,

919
00:33:33,620 --> 00:33:34,879
the pros and cons,

920
00:33:34,879 --> 00:33:37,400
because we are
looking at this state

921
00:33:37,400 --> 00:33:39,859
and local getting
it in parallel.

922
00:33:39,859 --> 00:33:43,069
And the problem is,

923
00:33:43,069 --> 00:33:44,239
is when you're
pulling receive

924
00:33:44,239 --> 00:33:47,629
a letter from one entity,

925
00:33:47,629 --> 00:33:48,950
everybody else,

926
00:33:48,950 --> 00:33:51,210
we don't really
get good comments.

927
00:33:51,940 --> 00:33:54,919
Good at it as the
next graphed in

928
00:33:54,919 --> 00:33:57,634
some way to
optimize an option,

929
00:33:57,634 --> 00:33:59,149
these options have
been proposed.

930
00:33:59,149 --> 00:34:00,650
We'd like to take
testimony on what

931
00:34:00,650 --> 00:34:02,840
people's action is to him.

932
00:34:02,840 --> 00:34:05,730
Remembering that
these ultimate level.

933
00:34:05,860 --> 00:34:09,065
What's the
reason for that?

934
00:34:09,065 --> 00:34:14,370
I mean, the function
is entirely different.

935
00:34:17,350 --> 00:34:22,320
Well, what about
silver falls?

936
00:34:26,850 --> 00:34:32,284
A lot of people
use it piece-wise,

937
00:34:32,284 --> 00:34:35,190
something like
that and oxygen.

938
00:34:36,160 --> 00:34:39,409
Remember, the list
of giving you

939
00:34:39,409 --> 00:34:41,599
the same no distinction

940
00:34:41,599 --> 00:34:44,660
between state
and local parks.

941
00:34:44,660 --> 00:34:47,300
So maybe state parks is

942
00:34:47,300 --> 00:34:52,924
contemplating silver
phosphate Park facility.

943
00:34:52,924 --> 00:34:56,825
A couple of other parts
around the state.

944
00:34:56,825 --> 00:34:59,089
Maybe metro

945
00:34:59,089 --> 00:35:02,359
contemplating a
facility like that.

946
00:35:02,359 --> 00:35:05,030
That's one of
the disabilities

947
00:35:05,030 --> 00:35:06,860
that might be
build on what are

948
00:35:06,860 --> 00:35:08,239
the properties that it

949
00:35:08,239 --> 00:35:09,589
has been acquired with the

950
00:35:09,589 --> 00:35:11,929
135 maybe lean

951
00:35:11,929 --> 00:35:14,945
County is contemplating
facility.

952
00:35:14,945 --> 00:35:15,740
I mean, that's what you've

953
00:35:15,740 --> 00:35:16,835
got to be thinking.

954
00:35:16,835 --> 00:35:18,860
Well, I think Lynn County

955
00:35:18,860 --> 00:35:22,954
has certainly some some
parks on green Peter

956
00:35:22,954 --> 00:35:25,939
and foster dam
there that our

957
00:35:25,939 --> 00:35:29,359
approach a state park
type of facility.

958
00:35:29,359 --> 00:35:30,769
And actually, when you're

959
00:35:30,769 --> 00:35:32,990
not it's not exactly

960
00:35:32,990 --> 00:35:34,655
accurate to just say local

961
00:35:34,655 --> 00:35:35,479
because what you're really

962
00:35:35,479 --> 00:35:36,994
talking about his County.

963
00:35:36,994 --> 00:35:45,900
I mean, because the
city and county,

964
00:35:47,800 --> 00:35:50,809
maybe Metro is
contemplating it out.

965
00:35:50,809 --> 00:35:56,224
And so if you say
it's a little list,

966
00:35:56,224 --> 00:35:57,800
you don't need
an exception

967
00:35:57,800 --> 00:35:59,135
to go up three or four.

968
00:35:59,135 --> 00:36:00,889
You have to be prepared

969
00:36:00,889 --> 00:36:03,830
to accept those
facilities.

970
00:36:03,830 --> 00:36:05,610
Wherever.

971
00:36:11,380 --> 00:36:18,350
I can see the knee.
The exception process

972
00:36:18,350 --> 00:36:19,670
for all the reasons that

973
00:36:19,670 --> 00:36:21,799
Jim Johnson was
talking about.

974
00:36:21,799 --> 00:36:24,470
But it would be interesting
to hear what was

975
00:36:24,470 --> 00:36:28,909
swimming pool
hardcore surface.

976
00:36:28,909 --> 00:36:31,265
Originally the
list also included

977
00:36:31,265 --> 00:36:32,990
other things such as

978
00:36:32,990 --> 00:36:34,910
developed ball
fields and such,

979
00:36:34,910 --> 00:36:37,099
but Parks has waived
their objection

980
00:36:37,099 --> 00:36:40,170
to us dropping
that one was 2025,

981
00:36:40,170 --> 00:36:44,430
25 units associated
with a retreat.

982
00:36:44,920 --> 00:36:47,794
That green things
we're looking at.

983
00:36:47,794 --> 00:36:50,195
Same thing for
cities or counties.

984
00:36:50,195 --> 00:36:52,085
Wanted to make
a distinction.

985
00:36:52,085 --> 00:36:53,580
That's the one.

986
00:36:55,660 --> 00:36:57,740
I don't mind putting
those in and

987
00:36:57,740 --> 00:36:59,939
letting people at
least comment.

988
00:37:04,060 --> 00:37:05,930
I don't understand why

989
00:37:05,930 --> 00:37:08,179
they wanted to just 25.

990
00:37:08,179 --> 00:37:10,129
25 doesn't meet the needs

991
00:37:10,129 --> 00:37:11,959
of one half of

992
00:37:11,959 --> 00:37:13,429
percent of the
state of Oregon.

993
00:37:13,429 --> 00:37:15,919
I mean, who are gonna
be the exclusive people

994
00:37:15,919 --> 00:37:18,695
get the right to stay
in those 25 units.

995
00:37:18,695 --> 00:37:22,205
Again, they're
not suggesting

996
00:37:22,205 --> 00:37:24,680
25 as meeting
and overnight,

997
00:37:24,680 --> 00:37:27,784
a generalized overnight
accommodations.

998
00:37:27,784 --> 00:37:30,259
They're talking
about something

999
00:37:30,259 --> 00:37:40,309
like 25

1000
00:37:40,309 --> 00:37:42,154
enough for syllable.

1001
00:37:42,154 --> 00:37:48,320
Mean that they have
basically asked why they

1002
00:37:48,320 --> 00:37:54,110
asked me that they
wouldn't set a number.

1003
00:37:54,110 --> 00:37:56,840
So write that down
again to have

1004
00:37:56,840 --> 00:38:00,649
adverse effects
surrounding farms

1005
00:38:00,649 --> 00:38:03,064
and for the good.

1006
00:38:03,064 --> 00:38:04,879
Them do opposition
to this rule.

1007
00:38:04,879 --> 00:38:06,875
If you set it
at 50 or 100.

1008
00:38:06,875 --> 00:38:07,909
Recalls,

1009
00:38:07,909 --> 00:38:09,424
the court has already
grandfathered in.

1010
00:38:09,424 --> 00:38:10,984
So whatever they've
gotten their job,

1011
00:38:10,984 --> 00:38:12,170
know if it's 100,

1012
00:38:12,170 --> 00:38:14,190
which it may well be.

1013
00:38:14,560 --> 00:38:17,599
Well, the one
other thing I

1014
00:38:17,599 --> 00:38:20,000
I heard the
counties say it was

1015
00:38:20,000 --> 00:38:23,630
okay with them
was this one part

1016
00:38:23,630 --> 00:38:24,650
of metro suggestion at

1017
00:38:24,650 --> 00:38:27,259
least which was
the grandfathering

1018
00:38:27,259 --> 00:38:29,810
in uses, existing
local uses.

1019
00:38:29,810 --> 00:38:33,289
Local same way we're
grandfathering in state.

1020
00:38:33,289 --> 00:38:34,789
We have no objection.

1021
00:38:34,789 --> 00:38:36,529
The department would
object to that.

1022
00:38:36,529 --> 00:38:38,300
The statute specifically

1023
00:38:38,300 --> 00:38:40,700
grandfathered
existing state uses.

1024
00:38:40,700 --> 00:38:42,949
I don't know what we heard

1025
00:38:42,949 --> 00:38:44,300
by doing the
same for local

1026
00:38:44,300 --> 00:38:45,395
and you can think of it.

1027
00:38:45,395 --> 00:38:45,995
I think it'd be worth

1028
00:38:45,995 --> 00:38:47,360
taking some testimony on

1029
00:38:47,360 --> 00:38:51,329
local getting
the same thing.

1030
00:38:51,400 --> 00:38:53,764
We'll add it to
the next draft.

1031
00:38:53,764 --> 00:38:56,119
Yeah, but yeah.

1032
00:38:56,119 --> 00:38:58,774
I don't think that
would be controversial.

1033
00:38:58,774 --> 00:39:01,354
In fact, I wonder
whether existing law

1034
00:39:01,354 --> 00:39:02,869
already says that gender

1035
00:39:02,869 --> 00:39:03,949
non-conforming use law.

1036
00:39:03,949 --> 00:39:05,315
It's just it's
just a matter of

1037
00:39:05,315 --> 00:39:06,649
declaring something
that I think

1038
00:39:06,649 --> 00:39:08,669
is already there.

1039
00:39:14,680 --> 00:39:16,369
You're also going to look

1040
00:39:16,369 --> 00:39:21,080
at this possible option

1041
00:39:21,080 --> 00:39:23,270
of the we call it the

1042
00:39:23,270 --> 00:39:25,820
symbolic option of
the designates.

1043
00:39:25,820 --> 00:39:26,960
Designated designation

1044
00:39:26,960 --> 00:39:29,550
says park or open space.

1045
00:39:30,610 --> 00:39:33,439
Does your use a list allow

1046
00:39:33,439 --> 00:39:38,220
the one caretaker
security overnight stay?

1047
00:39:39,820 --> 00:39:43,680
In fact, I don t think
it limits it to one.

1048
00:39:44,440 --> 00:39:47,524
That shows up.

1049
00:39:47,524 --> 00:39:48,709
Again.

1050
00:39:48,709 --> 00:39:51,200
This is a mini park,
could have caretaker,

1051
00:39:51,200 --> 00:39:53,749
but you wouldn't have
to take an exception

1052
00:39:53,749 --> 00:39:58,085
for visitor and employ
lodging facilities.

1053
00:39:58,085 --> 00:40:00,800
Some parks lodge more
than one caretaker,

1054
00:40:00,800 --> 00:40:02,420
so we haven't
put any limits

1055
00:40:02,420 --> 00:40:04,384
on how many park
employees there are,

1056
00:40:04,384 --> 00:40:10,010
but they would have
to do something.

1057
00:40:10,010 --> 00:40:11,810
I think what we're
intending is it

1058
00:40:11,810 --> 00:40:13,685
That's employees
of that park.

1059
00:40:13,685 --> 00:40:16,489
Parks wouldn't lodge
all the employees for

1060
00:40:16,489 --> 00:40:21,829
the state parks be
many employees.

1061
00:40:21,829 --> 00:40:22,789
And typically it could be

1062
00:40:22,789 --> 00:40:25,379
a barracks or
something like that.

1063
00:40:26,530 --> 00:40:28,099
Settle.

1064
00:40:28,099 --> 00:40:30,839
It can be 25 people
right there.

1065
00:40:30,970 --> 00:40:33,140
Three questions.

1066
00:40:33,140 --> 00:40:38,180
Metros, caretaker
facility.

1067
00:40:38,180 --> 00:40:43,589
But it wouldn't
require to improve it.

1068
00:40:49,450 --> 00:40:50,854
Yeah.

1069
00:40:50,854 --> 00:40:53,149
There's nothing option to

1070
00:40:53,149 --> 00:40:55,715
their limits in any way.

1071
00:40:55,715 --> 00:40:59,660
The counties authority
to approve or deny

1072
00:40:59,660 --> 00:41:02,149
parks master plan
that the metro

1073
00:41:02,149 --> 00:41:06,454
proposes against the
review criteria issue.

1074
00:41:06,454 --> 00:41:08,749
If this Commission
says you can

1075
00:41:08,749 --> 00:41:11,435
have a caretaker facility

1076
00:41:11,435 --> 00:41:15,484
without exception of gold

1077
00:41:15,484 --> 00:41:17,660
in both of the
county option

1078
00:41:17,660 --> 00:41:21,004
to turn it down on ground?

1079
00:41:21,004 --> 00:41:26,779
Only turned down
for me to write,

1080
00:41:26,779 --> 00:41:28,039
but they could
turn it down for

1081
00:41:28,039 --> 00:41:30,364
any other reason that
they can think of.

1082
00:41:30,364 --> 00:41:32,524
Within the goals into 96?

1083
00:41:32,524 --> 00:41:34,009
No. They're not limped,

1084
00:41:34,009 --> 00:41:35,209
did not limited
in that way.

1085
00:41:35,209 --> 00:41:36,770
They're limited
local government.

1086
00:41:36,770 --> 00:41:38,735
That's for that's
for state parks.

1087
00:41:38,735 --> 00:41:41,839
Oh, you're not state
or local parks.

1088
00:41:41,839 --> 00:41:42,994
Okay.

1089
00:41:42,994 --> 00:41:45,499
I'll be having written
these rules so

1090
00:41:45,499 --> 00:41:47,750
that one local
park agency where

1091
00:41:47,750 --> 00:41:49,009
there it's metro or

1092
00:41:49,009 --> 00:41:52,415
a park district
or a nearby city,

1093
00:41:52,415 --> 00:41:55,190
forces a county to accept

1094
00:41:55,190 --> 00:41:56,629
their master plan unless

1095
00:41:56,629 --> 00:41:57,769
there are gold violations.

1096
00:41:57,769 --> 00:41:59,285
We haven't done
that the statute

1097
00:41:59,285 --> 00:42:02,150
didn't know was
never brought up.

1098
00:42:02,150 --> 00:42:04,204
They won't have a goal.

1099
00:42:04,204 --> 00:42:05,885
That's all.

1100
00:42:05,885 --> 00:42:07,519
They want to turn
it down. They can't

1101
00:42:07,519 --> 00:42:09,780
use goals reason, excuse.

1102
00:42:20,500 --> 00:42:22,279
Okay.

1103
00:42:22,279 --> 00:42:23,449
Metro is probably
gonna wanna give

1104
00:42:23,449 --> 00:42:26,309
these parks all back
to the counties.

1105
00:42:29,260 --> 00:42:35,010
Any other comments for Mr.

1106
00:42:37,660 --> 00:42:41,339
That concludes
it. Thank you.

1107
00:42:42,100 --> 00:42:44,479
You can all tough
when you get a lot of

1108
00:42:44,479 --> 00:42:51,139
the tough ones are
veterans salary goes.

1109
00:42:51,139 --> 00:42:52,280
It looked a lot easier

1110
00:42:52,280 --> 00:42:54,390
before we tried to do it.

1111
00:42:55,390 --> 00:43:00,095
We've got two more
hearings to go.

1112
00:43:00,095 --> 00:43:02,750
And we had thought
we might start this

1113
00:43:02,750 --> 00:43:05,300
in by 11. We
obviously didn't.

1114
00:43:05,300 --> 00:43:07,160
So I guess we
all try and take

1115
00:43:07,160 --> 00:43:09,690
lunch as quick as we can.

1116
00:43:10,210 --> 00:43:13,489
Usually be able to
do it in 45 min.

1117
00:43:13,489 --> 00:43:15,604
Is that okay for people?

1118
00:43:15,604 --> 00:43:17,540
We can get started.

1119
00:43:17,540 --> 00:43:19,130
The better served.

1120
00:43:19,130 --> 00:43:22,099
Yeah. Yeah. So 12,

1121
00:43:22,099 --> 00:43:23,494
45 will take up.

1122
00:43:23,494 --> 00:43:28,310
Agenda Item ten I'm

1123
00:43:28,310 --> 00:43:30,420
surprised they
didn't come in.

1124
00:43:33,400 --> 00:43:36,859
And Bob, you'll take us

1125
00:43:36,859 --> 00:43:38,209
through a staff
report and then

1126
00:43:38,209 --> 00:43:39,859
we'll go right
into testimony.

1127
00:43:39,859 --> 00:43:40,279
Yes.

1128
00:43:40,279 --> 00:43:42,260
I'll bring your
attention to

1129
00:43:42,260 --> 00:43:44,479
this document which

1130
00:43:44,479 --> 00:43:46,099
you might have
two of these,

1131
00:43:46,099 --> 00:43:47,585
one of them is
very skinny.

1132
00:43:47,585 --> 00:43:49,805
And one of the very
fact yesterday,

1133
00:43:49,805 --> 00:43:51,530
I had delivered to me

1134
00:43:51,530 --> 00:43:53,539
the written testimony
from the goal

1135
00:43:53,539 --> 00:43:55,700
hearing from the person

1136
00:43:55,700 --> 00:43:57,499
that we have going
out to the states.

1137
00:43:57,499 --> 00:43:59,720
So we haven't had a
chance to analyze these,

1138
00:43:59,720 --> 00:44:01,729
but we will
present you with

1139
00:44:01,729 --> 00:44:04,939
a more formal report
about what we heard.

1140
00:44:04,939 --> 00:44:07,129
The goal hearings just

1141
00:44:07,129 --> 00:44:08,600
concluded in at
least you now

1142
00:44:08,600 --> 00:44:11,280
have the letters
that were turned in.

1143
00:44:15,730 --> 00:44:17,960
For the record,
I'm Bob AND with

1144
00:44:17,960 --> 00:44:19,280
the department chair blas

1145
00:44:19,280 --> 00:44:20,705
are members of
the Commission.

1146
00:44:20,705 --> 00:44:24,200
Item ten concerns
the public

1147
00:44:24,200 --> 00:44:29,389
hearing on the amendments
to Goal 11 and

1148
00:44:29,389 --> 00:44:31,325
to some related rules

1149
00:44:31,325 --> 00:44:33,829
that we first
discussed with

1150
00:44:33,829 --> 00:44:39,899
you at your
retreat last fall.

1151
00:44:39,899 --> 00:44:42,759
You may recall that
there were trying to

1152
00:44:42,759 --> 00:44:45,159
deal with a couple of
issues at once here.

1153
00:44:45,159 --> 00:44:46,539
One of them has to do with

1154
00:44:46,539 --> 00:44:48,025
water systems

1155
00:44:48,025 --> 00:44:49,959
outside urban
growth boundaries.

1156
00:44:49,959 --> 00:44:52,839
One of them has to do
with sewer sewer lines,

1157
00:44:52,839 --> 00:44:53,979
sewer systems outside

1158
00:44:53,979 --> 00:44:56,000
of urban growth
boundaries.

1159
00:44:56,490 --> 00:45:00,414
The first attachments
in your packet.

1160
00:45:00,414 --> 00:45:05,035
Attachment, a.
First of all,

1161
00:45:05,035 --> 00:45:07,449
it contains the
text of Goal 11,

1162
00:45:07,449 --> 00:45:09,219
As you'll see from

1163
00:45:09,219 --> 00:45:15,099
the underlined and
bold middle of that,

1164
00:45:15,099 --> 00:45:16,554
there is what we
are proposing.

1165
00:45:16,554 --> 00:45:18,489
I'll just walk you through

1166
00:45:18,489 --> 00:45:20,470
that and then
we'll see if you

1167
00:45:20,470 --> 00:45:21,340
need some other background

1168
00:45:21,340 --> 00:45:22,179
would try to provide

1169
00:45:22,179 --> 00:45:26,225
them for sewer systems.

1170
00:45:26,225 --> 00:45:28,325
Most of that is

1171
00:45:28,325 --> 00:45:30,170
the first half of
that amendment,

1172
00:45:30,170 --> 00:45:31,849
concerns sewer
systems outside

1173
00:45:31,849 --> 00:45:33,244
of urban growth patterns.

1174
00:45:33,244 --> 00:45:35,600
Right now, the
Commission's rules

1175
00:45:35,600 --> 00:45:38,390
prevent counties.

1176
00:45:38,390 --> 00:45:39,589
We think it should be all

1177
00:45:39,589 --> 00:45:41,000
over government from

1178
00:45:41,000 --> 00:45:43,909
extending a sewer line

1179
00:45:43,909 --> 00:45:45,230
from an urban
growth boundary

1180
00:45:45,230 --> 00:45:47,224
to land outside
of boundary.

1181
00:45:47,224 --> 00:45:50,270
And right now,
gold 11 prohibits

1182
00:45:50,270 --> 00:45:52,624
the establishment of
a new sewer system

1183
00:45:52,624 --> 00:45:55,229
in rural areas.

1184
00:45:55,270 --> 00:45:58,279
If there's a health
hazard and there are

1185
00:45:58,279 --> 00:46:00,319
health problem as
there are a number

1186
00:46:00,319 --> 00:46:03,065
of those out in
rural areas.

1187
00:46:03,065 --> 00:46:06,394
Exceptions process
must be used.

1188
00:46:06,394 --> 00:46:10,895
And for some time now
we've been hearing

1189
00:46:10,895 --> 00:46:13,790
about how complicated it

1190
00:46:13,790 --> 00:46:16,535
is to solve a health
problem anyway.

1191
00:46:16,535 --> 00:46:20,030
And once residents
finally agree,

1192
00:46:20,030 --> 00:46:21,170
and often it's very

1193
00:46:21,170 --> 00:46:22,640
difficult to get
agreement on

1194
00:46:22,640 --> 00:46:25,084
a sewer system or
some other solution

1195
00:46:25,084 --> 00:46:26,659
to a rural health problem.

1196
00:46:26,659 --> 00:46:28,864
They then fell
face the task

1197
00:46:28,864 --> 00:46:31,835
of an exception to go 11.

1198
00:46:31,835 --> 00:46:33,619
And it's not real clear

1199
00:46:33,619 --> 00:46:35,210
how one takes
that exception.

1200
00:46:35,210 --> 00:46:36,965
So we could have opted for

1201
00:46:36,965 --> 00:46:39,769
a much more clear path
for an exception.

1202
00:46:39,769 --> 00:46:41,360
And what we've
opted to do is to

1203
00:46:41,360 --> 00:46:42,829
propose to you just
simply to amend

1204
00:46:42,829 --> 00:46:47,195
Goal 11 so that for
a health problem,

1205
00:46:47,195 --> 00:46:49,220
sewer lines could be

1206
00:46:49,220 --> 00:46:51,769
provided system or
an extension from

1207
00:46:51,769 --> 00:46:54,109
a UDP or some
other solution of

1208
00:46:54,109 --> 00:46:55,670
that nature would
be authorized

1209
00:46:55,670 --> 00:46:57,590
without an exception
to the goal.

1210
00:46:57,590 --> 00:47:01,189
We intend this to be,

1211
00:47:01,189 --> 00:47:02,929
first of all, only
for something

1212
00:47:02,929 --> 00:47:04,490
that's legitimately
a health problem.

1213
00:47:04,490 --> 00:47:07,415
And we don't have
we have in statute,

1214
00:47:07,415 --> 00:47:09,320
a way to declare

1215
00:47:09,320 --> 00:47:12,410
a health hazard
that's rarely used.

1216
00:47:12,410 --> 00:47:14,479
It is, it is highly
controversial and it

1217
00:47:14,479 --> 00:47:16,130
contains some timelines so

1218
00:47:16,130 --> 00:47:17,269
that once you get
a declaration,

1219
00:47:17,269 --> 00:47:18,590
you have to resolve
the problem in

1220
00:47:18,590 --> 00:47:20,434
60 days or something
of that nature.

1221
00:47:20,434 --> 00:47:22,999
We don't didn't want to

1222
00:47:22,999 --> 00:47:27,245
insert ourselves into
that mandatory process.

1223
00:47:27,245 --> 00:47:30,184
But what we are trying
to do here is invent

1224
00:47:30,184 --> 00:47:32,990
something whereby dq would

1225
00:47:32,990 --> 00:47:34,339
be in charge declaring

1226
00:47:34,339 --> 00:47:36,155
something in a rural area

1227
00:47:36,155 --> 00:47:38,374
a health problem because

1228
00:47:38,374 --> 00:47:42,960
of existing development.

1229
00:47:43,390 --> 00:47:46,340
Probably unfailing
septic systems,

1230
00:47:46,340 --> 00:47:47,959
which is usually
what occurs.

1231
00:47:47,959 --> 00:47:49,609
We don't intend this to be

1232
00:47:49,609 --> 00:47:50,735
used prospectively.

1233
00:47:50,735 --> 00:47:52,369
That is, somebody
who had come

1234
00:47:52,369 --> 00:47:53,419
forward and say we want to

1235
00:47:53,419 --> 00:47:54,499
develop in a rural area.

1236
00:47:54,499 --> 00:47:55,970
If we develop it
at this density,

1237
00:47:55,970 --> 00:47:57,019
it's going to be
a health problem.

1238
00:47:57,019 --> 00:47:57,890
So we're a health problems

1239
00:47:57,890 --> 00:47:58,955
will get a sewer line.

1240
00:47:58,955 --> 00:48:00,560
That's not the intent.

1241
00:48:00,560 --> 00:48:02,390
One of the things
we've heard in

1242
00:48:02,390 --> 00:48:04,640
our ten hearings around
the state that we've

1243
00:48:04,640 --> 00:48:08,119
now completed is we
need to make a lot of

1244
00:48:08,119 --> 00:48:09,799
the details more
clearly that with

1245
00:48:09,799 --> 00:48:11,044
definitions or with

1246
00:48:11,044 --> 00:48:12,529
additional
detailed language.

1247
00:48:12,529 --> 00:48:14,660
So that's what we will

1248
00:48:14,660 --> 00:48:16,999
be providing for you
for your next meeting.

1249
00:48:16,999 --> 00:48:18,559
But for now, I thought
I'd raised to you

1250
00:48:18,559 --> 00:48:20,824
some of the main
concerns we have.

1251
00:48:20,824 --> 00:48:23,119
So in a nutshell, all
we're doing here is

1252
00:48:23,119 --> 00:48:25,190
streamlining
provision of sewer

1253
00:48:25,190 --> 00:48:27,184
to rural health
problem areas.

1254
00:48:27,184 --> 00:48:29,330
The second piece of this,

1255
00:48:29,330 --> 00:48:32,119
which is the water,
rural water systems.

1256
00:48:32,119 --> 00:48:34,460
You chose in 94 when

1257
00:48:34,460 --> 00:48:37,445
you adopted
amendments to go 11.

1258
00:48:37,445 --> 00:48:42,170
To not really, to
land solidly one

1259
00:48:42,170 --> 00:48:43,505
way or another on when

1260
00:48:43,505 --> 00:48:46,625
a water system
is an urban use.

1261
00:48:46,625 --> 00:48:48,335
You didn't declare that.

1262
00:48:48,335 --> 00:48:50,420
What you did declare was

1263
00:48:50,420 --> 00:48:54,065
that county may not use

1264
00:48:54,065 --> 00:48:55,909
an extension or
an establishment

1265
00:48:55,909 --> 00:48:57,319
of a water system in

1266
00:48:57,319 --> 00:48:59,795
a rural area as

1267
00:48:59,795 --> 00:49:03,245
a reason to raise
the density.

1268
00:49:03,245 --> 00:49:05,990
And what prompted
that discussion

1269
00:49:05,990 --> 00:49:07,069
was that we
understand there's

1270
00:49:07,069 --> 00:49:10,009
about ten counties
with a set of

1271
00:49:10,009 --> 00:49:13,070
dual it's a very
old process

1272
00:49:13,070 --> 00:49:15,450
of a dual zoning for

1273
00:49:15,450 --> 00:49:17,375
a residential
areas whereby

1274
00:49:17,375 --> 00:49:19,684
the plan might
say five acres.

1275
00:49:19,684 --> 00:49:21,319
However, if water is

1276
00:49:21,319 --> 00:49:23,329
available and it's water
system is available,

1277
00:49:23,329 --> 00:49:25,625
that jumps to one
acre or half-acre.

1278
00:49:25,625 --> 00:49:28,325
So this dual
provision where

1279
00:49:28,325 --> 00:49:30,979
you were stating through

1280
00:49:30,979 --> 00:49:32,479
your goal 11th Amendment,

1281
00:49:32,479 --> 00:49:34,430
you can't use
a water system

1282
00:49:34,430 --> 00:49:36,020
as a reason to
up the density.

1283
00:49:36,020 --> 00:49:37,204
We don't want densities

1284
00:49:37,204 --> 00:49:39,289
in rural areas
to be that high.

1285
00:49:39,289 --> 00:49:41,599
That's as far
as you went it

1286
00:49:41,599 --> 00:49:43,820
went to court in
Lincoln County,

1287
00:49:43,820 --> 00:49:48,664
where a very fairly
large subdivision that

1288
00:49:48,664 --> 00:49:51,199
looked to be fairly
dense and fairly

1289
00:49:51,199 --> 00:49:54,800
urban was appealed
by the department,

1290
00:49:54,800 --> 00:49:57,080
where the court
got concerned

1291
00:49:57,080 --> 00:49:58,250
about whether that

1292
00:49:58,250 --> 00:49:59,780
was an extension or

1293
00:49:59,780 --> 00:50:01,700
an establishment
of a water system.

1294
00:50:01,700 --> 00:50:03,919
Since there was a
large water line

1295
00:50:03,919 --> 00:50:04,969
going down the highway,

1296
00:50:04,969 --> 00:50:08,879
pass this large
60 acre parcel.

1297
00:50:08,920 --> 00:50:11,764
Parcel touch
that waterline.

1298
00:50:11,764 --> 00:50:13,730
The rule on your
golden apply it

1299
00:50:13,730 --> 00:50:16,039
wasn't an extension,
wasn't an expansion.

1300
00:50:16,039 --> 00:50:17,390
And the court went ahead

1301
00:50:17,390 --> 00:50:18,574
and interpreted
the language.

1302
00:50:18,574 --> 00:50:19,849
I think we think in a way

1303
00:50:19,849 --> 00:50:21,860
that mission
hadn't intended.

1304
00:50:21,860 --> 00:50:24,724
And so what we've
done as reward that.

1305
00:50:24,724 --> 00:50:26,990
And the main thing we've

1306
00:50:26,990 --> 00:50:29,240
changed is that just
the presence of

1307
00:50:29,240 --> 00:50:31,459
a water system
cannot be used as

1308
00:50:31,459 --> 00:50:35,270
a basis to allow
that density raised.

1309
00:50:35,270 --> 00:50:36,619
And so then we don't have

1310
00:50:36,619 --> 00:50:37,820
to argue about whether

1311
00:50:37,820 --> 00:50:40,114
it's an extension or
an establishment if,

1312
00:50:40,114 --> 00:50:42,980
if it's just there
for whatever reason.

1313
00:50:42,980 --> 00:50:45,470
And we think that
solves most of

1314
00:50:45,470 --> 00:50:49,020
the issue that was
raised by the court.

1315
00:50:50,530 --> 00:50:53,299
And there's some details

1316
00:50:53,299 --> 00:50:54,739
we can go into
if you wish,

1317
00:50:54,739 --> 00:50:56,554
but that's that's
the main point.

1318
00:50:56,554 --> 00:51:00,860
Now, we did not have
a policy in 94.

1319
00:51:00,860 --> 00:51:03,680
We never adopted a
policy that clearly

1320
00:51:03,680 --> 00:51:06,620
stated what happens to

1321
00:51:06,620 --> 00:51:08,794
those sewer
systems that are

1322
00:51:08,794 --> 00:51:12,080
already in rural areas

1323
00:51:12,080 --> 00:51:15,470
or that already serve
rural areas because

1324
00:51:15,470 --> 00:51:16,909
they straddle an
urban growth boundary

1325
00:51:16,909 --> 00:51:19,114
and partially
serve rural areas.

1326
00:51:19,114 --> 00:51:20,974
We just use

1327
00:51:20,974 --> 00:51:23,389
your rule prohibited
the extension,

1328
00:51:23,389 --> 00:51:25,114
new extension
to rural areas,

1329
00:51:25,114 --> 00:51:26,555
and the establishment
of a new system,

1330
00:51:26,555 --> 00:51:27,635
but it left silent.

1331
00:51:27,635 --> 00:51:31,579
What happens to those
31 sanitary authorities

1332
00:51:31,579 --> 00:51:33,410
that already exist
in the state,

1333
00:51:33,410 --> 00:51:35,570
some of which
were not sure how

1334
00:51:35,570 --> 00:51:38,945
many serve rural areas.

1335
00:51:38,945 --> 00:51:41,420
We know about a couple
of them clearly do.

1336
00:51:41,420 --> 00:51:43,084
So.

1337
00:51:43,084 --> 00:51:47,074
We proposed to you

1338
00:51:47,074 --> 00:51:48,440
a policy in this in

1339
00:51:48,440 --> 00:51:49,909
this set of goal
amendments that

1340
00:51:49,909 --> 00:51:52,759
were authorized
districts to

1341
00:51:52,759 --> 00:51:54,980
serve areas

1342
00:51:54,980 --> 00:51:57,200
within the boundaries
of that district.

1343
00:51:57,200 --> 00:52:00,589
We did so harshly with

1344
00:52:00,589 --> 00:52:02,480
the understanding
that generally where

1345
00:52:02,480 --> 00:52:05,240
there's already sewer
lines and rural areas,

1346
00:52:05,240 --> 00:52:06,665
they pretty much fill

1347
00:52:06,665 --> 00:52:08,254
the district boundaries.

1348
00:52:08,254 --> 00:52:10,310
And we now have a survey.

1349
00:52:10,310 --> 00:52:13,355
So far I've only 16
of the 31 districts.

1350
00:52:13,355 --> 00:52:14,899
And we find that most of

1351
00:52:14,899 --> 00:52:17,780
them don't have land
outside the boundaries.

1352
00:52:17,780 --> 00:52:19,340
We think that
where that is,

1353
00:52:19,340 --> 00:52:22,129
they're generally the
district boundaries

1354
00:52:22,129 --> 00:52:23,884
are already served
by sewer lines,

1355
00:52:23,884 --> 00:52:25,774
but we have discovered

1356
00:52:25,774 --> 00:52:27,410
recently that there are

1357
00:52:27,410 --> 00:52:28,744
a couple of districts.

1358
00:52:28,744 --> 00:52:32,479
One for sure, where
there is quite a bit of

1359
00:52:32,479 --> 00:52:34,190
land within the boundary

1360
00:52:34,190 --> 00:52:36,680
but not currently served.

1361
00:52:36,680 --> 00:52:38,419
And so those areas under

1362
00:52:38,419 --> 00:52:40,535
the proposal and
those proposals,

1363
00:52:40,535 --> 00:52:41,629
those folks
that are within

1364
00:52:41,629 --> 00:52:43,280
the district could
have sewer line in

1365
00:52:43,280 --> 00:52:45,755
the future even though

1366
00:52:45,755 --> 00:52:47,270
there's not a
health hazard.

1367
00:52:47,270 --> 00:52:48,709
So I wanted to
point out that

1368
00:52:48,709 --> 00:52:50,450
we've got this side issue

1369
00:52:50,450 --> 00:52:52,520
here about those district

1370
00:52:52,520 --> 00:52:53,750
areas and what will we do?

1371
00:52:53,750 --> 00:52:55,940
And we have we
just sort of throw

1372
00:52:55,940 --> 00:52:57,170
something out there and

1373
00:52:57,170 --> 00:52:58,399
we've got some testimony.

1374
00:52:58,399 --> 00:52:59,150
I think you'll receive

1375
00:52:59,150 --> 00:53:00,664
some more on that today.

1376
00:53:00,664 --> 00:53:04,805
We also amended
very brief way,

1377
00:53:04,805 --> 00:53:06,169
the public
facilities planning

1378
00:53:06,169 --> 00:53:07,970
rule that
implements Goal 11,

1379
00:53:07,970 --> 00:53:09,799
because it only right

1380
00:53:09,799 --> 00:53:12,155
now it only applies
to urban areas.

1381
00:53:12,155 --> 00:53:14,449
We want to I
think especially

1382
00:53:14,449 --> 00:53:15,320
based on the testimony

1383
00:53:15,320 --> 00:53:16,340
that we received
in hearings,

1384
00:53:16,340 --> 00:53:18,984
we may want to make
some definition to

1385
00:53:18,984 --> 00:53:22,040
some other clarifying
of this goal language.

1386
00:53:22,040 --> 00:53:23,450
Typically that
should go into

1387
00:53:23,450 --> 00:53:24,994
rule rather than the goal.

1388
00:53:24,994 --> 00:53:27,014
So we've made a
brief amendment

1389
00:53:27,014 --> 00:53:28,640
and next page you'll
see that we have

1390
00:53:28,640 --> 00:53:30,169
mended that golden rule so

1391
00:53:30,169 --> 00:53:31,850
that the intro also

1392
00:53:31,850 --> 00:53:33,350
allows that rule
to interpret

1393
00:53:33,350 --> 00:53:35,870
requirements for
rural areas.

1394
00:53:35,870 --> 00:53:37,820
And then we'll
dump definitions

1395
00:53:37,820 --> 00:53:40,219
and such into there as we

1396
00:53:40,219 --> 00:53:42,455
go out with our
next round of rules

1397
00:53:42,455 --> 00:53:46,140
or of a golden rule
and for hearing.

1398
00:53:50,740 --> 00:53:56,060
Finally, we also have
proposed amendments

1399
00:53:56,060 --> 00:54:01,879
to 660 division
for Section 18.

1400
00:54:01,879 --> 00:54:04,114
Those are the rules
that apply to

1401
00:54:04,114 --> 00:54:05,509
exception areas
when accounting

1402
00:54:05,509 --> 00:54:07,820
takes an exception
to both 3.4.

1403
00:54:07,820 --> 00:54:10,190
They also have
We also tell

1404
00:54:10,190 --> 00:54:12,754
them how to plan
that exception area.

1405
00:54:12,754 --> 00:54:15,169
And those rules
hadn't been

1406
00:54:15,169 --> 00:54:18,739
touched since,
I think 1981.

1407
00:54:18,739 --> 00:54:21,410
And of course since
then we've had

1408
00:54:21,410 --> 00:54:23,589
Curry County case that

1409
00:54:23,589 --> 00:54:25,130
right on target
as to what's

1410
00:54:25,130 --> 00:54:26,704
supposed to happen
in exception areas.

1411
00:54:26,704 --> 00:54:28,489
And we've also made
amendments to go 11,

1412
00:54:28,489 --> 00:54:30,170
including those
that we propose.

1413
00:54:30,170 --> 00:54:31,940
So we're proposing
some amendments

1414
00:54:31,940 --> 00:54:33,589
to division 18.

1415
00:54:33,589 --> 00:54:34,579
As you look at it,

1416
00:54:34,579 --> 00:54:35,570
you'll see that
the main thing

1417
00:54:35,570 --> 00:54:37,685
we're talking about
there is services.

1418
00:54:37,685 --> 00:54:39,349
Find that by that we mean

1419
00:54:39,349 --> 00:54:40,639
the facilities
and services

1420
00:54:40,639 --> 00:54:42,350
such as sewer
and water lines,

1421
00:54:42,350 --> 00:54:45,425
uses and density
or something

1422
00:54:45,425 --> 00:54:47,675
for exception areas where

1423
00:54:47,675 --> 00:54:50,360
we want to make sure
that they are rural.

1424
00:54:50,360 --> 00:54:51,994
That if there are later,

1425
00:54:51,994 --> 00:54:53,719
there are changes
that are proposed and

1426
00:54:53,719 --> 00:54:55,895
an exception area after
it's acknowledged.

1427
00:54:55,895 --> 00:54:58,400
Most of them are that

1428
00:54:58,400 --> 00:55:01,669
they would only
authorized uses,

1429
00:55:01,669 --> 00:55:03,080
services and
densities which are

1430
00:55:03,080 --> 00:55:04,580
the same as those
which were there

1431
00:55:04,580 --> 00:55:06,020
during the time
the exception was

1432
00:55:06,020 --> 00:55:09,049
taken or that meet
all the all the goals

1433
00:55:09,049 --> 00:55:11,839
including Gulf 14 or

1434
00:55:11,839 --> 00:55:16,139
completely rural as
we interpret them.

1435
00:55:16,139 --> 00:55:18,324
I'll stop there.

1436
00:55:18,324 --> 00:55:20,620
Unless you want me to
go into some details

1437
00:55:20,620 --> 00:55:23,199
here and on through,

1438
00:55:23,199 --> 00:55:25,029
as I mentioned,
ten hearings.

1439
00:55:25,029 --> 00:55:26,379
We didn't get a lot of

1440
00:55:26,379 --> 00:55:27,699
testimony will
be giving you

1441
00:55:27,699 --> 00:55:29,739
that haven't had
time between the

1442
00:55:29,739 --> 00:55:31,989
last those to prepare
the final report.

1443
00:55:31,989 --> 00:55:33,609
You'll get that
in the mail soon.

1444
00:55:33,609 --> 00:55:35,500
And we will send out
another draft of

1445
00:55:35,500 --> 00:55:37,435
these within a
couple of weeks.

1446
00:55:37,435 --> 00:55:39,219
And then you'll have
another hearing at

1447
00:55:39,219 --> 00:55:41,649
the end of May
where you would

1448
00:55:41,649 --> 00:55:44,410
be affecting that to

1449
00:55:44,410 --> 00:55:46,910
be your final hearing
and adoption.

1450
00:55:48,240 --> 00:55:51,324
Bob, line 11.

1451
00:55:51,324 --> 00:55:53,379
No one-twenty one
of the goal and

1452
00:55:53,379 --> 00:55:56,080
then for the purpose

1453
00:55:56,080 --> 00:55:57,129
of serving development on

1454
00:55:57,129 --> 00:55:58,845
land outside of
those boundaries.

1455
00:55:58,845 --> 00:56:01,774
That's the language
we're relying upon.

1456
00:56:01,774 --> 00:56:03,530
As I understand
the staff report,

1457
00:56:03,530 --> 00:56:07,609
that would allow a service
provider to extend

1458
00:56:07,609 --> 00:56:09,859
land lines through
rural lands from

1459
00:56:09,859 --> 00:56:11,179
one urbanized area to

1460
00:56:11,179 --> 00:56:13,774
another provided there
were no hookups.

1461
00:56:13,774 --> 00:56:15,080
And I've run into that in

1462
00:56:15,080 --> 00:56:16,040
a number of places where

1463
00:56:16,040 --> 00:56:17,929
the local service
provider to

1464
00:56:17,929 --> 00:56:20,059
save cost instead of
having to run a line,

1465
00:56:20,059 --> 00:56:22,520
an extra 2 mi can stay
within a boundary.

1466
00:56:22,520 --> 00:56:24,065
And a couple of cases

1467
00:56:24,065 --> 00:56:26,284
spread over a larger area.

1468
00:56:26,284 --> 00:56:27,979
They wanted to
run a line with

1469
00:56:27,979 --> 00:56:30,154
absolutely assurances
have no hookups,

1470
00:56:30,154 --> 00:56:31,370
and there was an ambiguity

1471
00:56:31,370 --> 00:56:32,720
as to whether
it was allowed.

1472
00:56:32,720 --> 00:56:33,170
Ms.

1473
00:56:33,170 --> 00:56:34,279
Solves, this is
the language

1474
00:56:34,279 --> 00:56:35,404
that souls that right.

1475
00:56:35,404 --> 00:56:37,025
That's the intent.
Thank you.

1476
00:56:37,025 --> 00:56:38,824
Commissioner Fiverr, I
do want to point out,

1477
00:56:38,824 --> 00:56:39,949
I think one of
the things that

1478
00:56:39,949 --> 00:56:41,899
we do need to
clarify based on

1479
00:56:41,899 --> 00:56:44,450
our testimony is
that we're generally

1480
00:56:44,450 --> 00:56:45,875
talking about no hookups

1481
00:56:45,875 --> 00:56:47,119
in a lot of cases here,

1482
00:56:47,119 --> 00:56:49,699
if you extend a line, e.g.

1483
00:56:49,699 --> 00:56:52,204
for a health
hazard. We want,

1484
00:56:52,204 --> 00:56:54,019
we want our
intentions are and we

1485
00:56:54,019 --> 00:56:55,685
will clarify this
in the next round.

1486
00:56:55,685 --> 00:56:56,314
No hookups.

1487
00:56:56,314 --> 00:56:57,575
Now hookups in between

1488
00:56:57,575 --> 00:56:58,639
the hookups for
someone who

1489
00:56:58,639 --> 00:56:59,689
might be nearby but

1490
00:56:59,689 --> 00:57:01,280
isn't part of the
health hazard.

1491
00:57:01,280 --> 00:57:04,775
And similarly, if a
city wants to serve,

1492
00:57:04,775 --> 00:57:06,515
if you want to
link city systems

1493
00:57:06,515 --> 00:57:08,345
are huge GBs and
it's coming up,

1494
00:57:08,345 --> 00:57:11,045
it's been coming up more
and more frequently.

1495
00:57:11,045 --> 00:57:12,620
We don't think
that there is

1496
00:57:12,620 --> 00:57:15,469
a goal issue if the line

1497
00:57:15,469 --> 00:57:17,240
goes through rural areas

1498
00:57:17,240 --> 00:57:20,314
provided nobody can
hook up to that line.

1499
00:57:20,314 --> 00:57:22,969
And we would we would
try and clarify that

1500
00:57:22,969 --> 00:57:24,230
there should be
planned policy

1501
00:57:24,230 --> 00:57:25,309
to make sure that
doesn't happen.

1502
00:57:25,309 --> 00:57:26,570
There should be
designed, it

1503
00:57:26,570 --> 00:57:27,860
should be physically
designed so you

1504
00:57:27,860 --> 00:57:29,720
can't hook up to it any

1505
00:57:29,720 --> 00:57:32,330
other ways that we
can get assurances

1506
00:57:32,330 --> 00:57:36,559
that we've started that

1507
00:57:36,559 --> 00:57:37,639
with this
language where we

1508
00:57:37,639 --> 00:57:40,249
say what you're
prohibiting is

1509
00:57:40,249 --> 00:57:42,304
sewer lines serving

1510
00:57:42,304 --> 00:57:44,359
development on
rural lands,

1511
00:57:44,359 --> 00:57:47,749
but not others
who are very

1512
00:57:47,749 --> 00:57:49,400
question I had also,

1513
00:57:49,400 --> 00:57:51,320
do we have in policy that

1514
00:57:51,320 --> 00:57:52,790
power transmission
lines and

1515
00:57:52,790 --> 00:57:54,725
these lines
have to stay on

1516
00:57:54,725 --> 00:57:58,280
public right-of-way
or doesn't

1517
00:57:58,280 --> 00:57:59,869
deal with power
transmission lines.

1518
00:57:59,869 --> 00:58:01,925
I'm trying to remember.
I believe the statute

1519
00:58:01,925 --> 00:58:07,190
authorizes utilities
necessary for

1520
00:58:07,190 --> 00:58:10,610
public service outright
in right away,

1521
00:58:10,610 --> 00:58:12,050
but I don t think
it prevents them

1522
00:58:12,050 --> 00:58:15,200
from leaving right away
as it often happens,

1523
00:58:15,200 --> 00:58:16,340
and we certainly
don't intend

1524
00:58:16,340 --> 00:58:17,509
that for sewer
and water lines,

1525
00:58:17,509 --> 00:58:20,120
there are often some
good reasons, e.g.

1526
00:58:20,120 --> 00:58:22,009
why the waterline serving

1527
00:58:22,009 --> 00:58:23,510
the city of Portland
for the whole run,

1528
00:58:23,510 --> 00:58:25,249
if they had to run that
only down right away

1529
00:58:25,249 --> 00:58:28,050
if the costs would
have quadrupled.

1530
00:58:28,360 --> 00:58:33,604
Service providers
do wish to,

1531
00:58:33,604 --> 00:58:35,720
sometimes too, just for

1532
00:58:35,720 --> 00:58:37,219
a lot of reasons
to cross land,

1533
00:58:37,219 --> 00:58:38,479
but they do have to either

1534
00:58:38,479 --> 00:58:40,005
get agreement
with landowners,

1535
00:58:40,005 --> 00:58:43,330
they do have some
power of condemnation,

1536
00:58:43,330 --> 00:58:44,920
but I heard testimony

1537
00:58:44,920 --> 00:58:46,239
and during the legislature

1538
00:58:46,239 --> 00:58:48,399
this last session that

1539
00:58:48,399 --> 00:58:49,929
I can't vouch for
its accuracy,

1540
00:58:49,929 --> 00:58:51,939
but I understood
the utilities

1541
00:58:51,939 --> 00:58:52,990
to claim that they have

1542
00:58:52,990 --> 00:58:54,384
never used that power.

1543
00:58:54,384 --> 00:58:56,020
There's no cases where

1544
00:58:56,020 --> 00:58:58,675
condemnation had
occurred that they

1545
00:58:58,675 --> 00:59:04,399
always acquire those
rights away. In some.

1546
00:59:09,390 --> 00:59:13,700
Speak to the
word on line 22.

1547
00:59:13,800 --> 00:59:17,200
Feasible construction
crews as opposed to

1548
00:59:17,200 --> 00:59:19,945
say reasonable or
something else feasible.

1549
00:59:19,945 --> 00:59:21,279
It could be
interpreted a set

1550
00:59:21,279 --> 00:59:23,234
of awfully high.

1551
00:59:23,234 --> 00:59:26,825
Feasible means nothing.

1552
00:59:26,825 --> 00:59:27,529
You can do.

1553
00:59:27,529 --> 00:59:29,719
We want this to be
a high standard?

1554
00:59:29,719 --> 00:59:32,374
In that? Again, it's

1555
00:59:32,374 --> 00:59:35,029
our hope is that this
is a last alternative.

1556
00:59:35,029 --> 00:59:36,230
I mean, if there's

1557
00:59:36,230 --> 00:59:37,369
an on-site way to

1558
00:59:37,369 --> 00:59:39,395
solve a rural
health hazard.

1559
00:59:39,395 --> 00:59:42,635
We're recommending
that the preference be

1560
00:59:42,635 --> 00:59:45,244
that method rather than

1561
00:59:45,244 --> 00:59:47,825
running a sewer
line to it.

1562
00:59:47,825 --> 00:59:50,030
I don't this has

1563
00:59:50,030 --> 00:59:51,289
come up in the
hearings as well.

1564
00:59:51,289 --> 00:59:52,129
I think we're
going to have

1565
00:59:52,129 --> 00:59:52,970
to define the word

1566
00:59:52,970 --> 00:59:54,844
feasible or,
or changed it.

1567
00:59:54,844 --> 00:59:56,510
We still have the
same problem, e.g.

1568
00:59:56,510 --> 00:59:58,720
if we said practicable
or I'm sorry,

1569
00:59:58,720 --> 00:59:59,815
what was the one
you just use?

1570
00:59:59,815 --> 01:00:00,444
Reasonable.

1571
01:00:00,444 --> 01:00:01,194
Reasonable.

1572
01:00:01,194 --> 01:00:03,055
Whichever term we use

1573
01:00:03,055 --> 01:00:04,660
is going to be subjective.

1574
01:00:04,660 --> 01:00:06,100
And we're nervous about

1575
01:00:06,100 --> 01:00:07,540
that. About two things.

1576
01:00:07,540 --> 01:00:09,160
One, about how to

1577
01:00:09,160 --> 01:00:11,140
define it because those
type kinds of terms,

1578
01:00:11,140 --> 01:00:12,400
just as a
technical matter,

1579
01:00:12,400 --> 01:00:14,019
are very difficult
to define.

1580
01:00:14,019 --> 01:00:16,510
And secondly, we
don't want it to be

1581
01:00:16,510 --> 01:00:18,789
such an easy hurdle that

1582
01:00:18,789 --> 01:00:21,519
then sewer as always.

1583
01:00:21,519 --> 01:00:23,470
There are some
models reasonable

1584
01:00:23,470 --> 01:00:25,044
and practical taken
into account,

1585
01:00:25,044 --> 01:00:26,110
consider taking into

1586
01:00:26,110 --> 01:00:28,720
consideration costs
and technology, e.g.

1587
01:00:28,720 --> 01:00:30,460
was one the case law,

1588
01:00:30,460 --> 01:00:32,365
just other
regulatory schemes.

1589
01:00:32,365 --> 01:00:34,740
The thing about
this is that

1590
01:00:34,740 --> 01:00:37,064
there's just no
question that there are

1591
01:00:37,064 --> 01:00:39,419
feasible ways to
treat sewage from

1592
01:00:39,419 --> 01:00:40,800
a mobile home park or

1593
01:00:40,800 --> 01:00:43,725
something without
having to go.

1594
01:00:43,725 --> 01:00:46,590
Sewer lines are
absolutely are

1595
01:00:46,590 --> 01:00:49,740
technical ways to
do it on-site.

1596
01:00:49,740 --> 01:00:52,420
Every case. In every case.

1597
01:00:53,480 --> 01:00:58,890
Oil drilling platforms
do it all the time.

1598
01:00:58,890 --> 01:01:01,050
Oil drilling
operations out

1599
01:01:01,050 --> 01:01:02,789
in the middle of a jungle
do it all the time.

1600
01:01:02,789 --> 01:01:05,850
But it is per gallon,
pretty darn expensive.

1601
01:01:05,850 --> 01:01:08,099
But they treated
all to drinking

1602
01:01:08,099 --> 01:01:11,170
water standard
and discharging.

1603
01:01:11,360 --> 01:01:14,939
So basically,

1604
01:01:14,939 --> 01:01:16,319
since there I am

1605
01:01:16,319 --> 01:01:18,345
positive that there
is a feasible,

1606
01:01:18,345 --> 01:01:21,029
feasible
alternative, this is

1607
01:01:21,029 --> 01:01:22,290
almost moot then we don't,

1608
01:01:22,290 --> 01:01:23,940
we don't need
to provide this

1609
01:01:23,940 --> 01:01:25,424
since there is
always an alternate.

1610
01:01:25,424 --> 01:01:26,595
They do have an
alternative.

1611
01:01:26,595 --> 01:01:29,834
But it may be very,
very expensive.

1612
01:01:29,834 --> 01:01:33,090
We want to allow costs
to be a consideration,

1613
01:01:33,090 --> 01:01:35,760
then we need to do

1614
01:01:35,760 --> 01:01:39,970
something with feasible
to cover this cost.

1615
01:01:51,470 --> 01:01:53,700
I guess what we were,

1616
01:01:53,700 --> 01:01:56,160
we weren't ready
to propose

1617
01:01:56,160 --> 01:01:58,919
that whatever is the
cheapest alternative

1618
01:01:58,919 --> 01:02:00,464
is what should it be used?

1619
01:02:00,464 --> 01:02:01,979
I mean, because
you could you

1620
01:02:01,979 --> 01:02:03,600
could find that the
sewer alternative

1621
01:02:03,600 --> 01:02:06,734
was 100 dollar more
than the on-site one.

1622
01:02:06,734 --> 01:02:10,695
Therefore, if if
cost basis Well,

1623
01:02:10,695 --> 01:02:13,649
the after use onsite

1624
01:02:13,649 --> 01:02:15,539
because it's cheaper
or whatever I mean.

1625
01:02:15,539 --> 01:02:18,870
In other words, how
much more starts to

1626
01:02:18,870 --> 01:02:20,369
become an issue when

1627
01:02:20,369 --> 01:02:22,050
you start saying cost
can be considered.

1628
01:02:22,050 --> 01:02:23,520
And I don't know
how to draw a line

1629
01:02:23,520 --> 01:02:25,589
somewhere when we get into

1630
01:02:25,589 --> 01:02:26,624
this argument all the time

1631
01:02:26,624 --> 01:02:28,755
on environmental
impact studies

1632
01:02:28,755 --> 01:02:33,569
with where the issue is,

1633
01:02:33,569 --> 01:02:35,760
what is a reasonable
mitigation

1634
01:02:35,760 --> 01:02:36,780
for some damage

1635
01:02:36,780 --> 01:02:39,569
that you're doing and
you look in vain.

1636
01:02:39,569 --> 01:02:41,190
And the federal agencies

1637
01:02:41,190 --> 01:02:43,304
we're usually dealing
with for what,

1638
01:02:43,304 --> 01:02:44,820
how much more expensive

1639
01:02:44,820 --> 01:02:46,260
can be to the
point where they

1640
01:02:46,260 --> 01:02:47,610
would regard it as not

1641
01:02:47,610 --> 01:02:49,380
being reasonable
to mitigate.

1642
01:02:49,380 --> 01:02:51,299
And if it's ten

1643
01:02:51,299 --> 01:02:52,710
times more and most
of them agree,

1644
01:02:52,710 --> 01:02:56,024
it's too much,
too expensive.

1645
01:02:56,024 --> 01:02:58,124
But you debate is that

1646
01:02:58,124 --> 01:02:59,865
it's twice as much
as that too much.

1647
01:02:59,865 --> 01:03:00,809
And most of them will say,

1648
01:03:00,809 --> 01:03:02,970
Well, not necessarily.

1649
01:03:02,970 --> 01:03:06,015
Three times. Well,
not necessarily.

1650
01:03:06,015 --> 01:03:08,849
I mean, so there is no

1651
01:03:08,849 --> 01:03:10,469
there's nothing in
any statute that I

1652
01:03:10,469 --> 01:03:13,054
know of that says What?

1653
01:03:13,054 --> 01:03:16,334
You take the cheapest
alternative.

1654
01:03:16,334 --> 01:03:18,509
And the other one
is to three or four

1655
01:03:18,509 --> 01:03:20,189
times more. Is
that unreasonable?

1656
01:03:20,189 --> 01:03:21,570
I don't know of
any standard

1657
01:03:21,570 --> 01:03:22,589
and maybe somebody
else does,

1658
01:03:22,589 --> 01:03:24,300
but maybe we need

1659
01:03:24,300 --> 01:03:25,559
to grapple with
that a little bit.

1660
01:03:25,559 --> 01:03:28,604
Otherwise. The thing is,

1661
01:03:28,604 --> 01:03:30,359
there is always a
feasible alternative.

1662
01:03:30,359 --> 01:03:32,714
I guess what I'm
coming to Dell,

1663
01:03:32,714 --> 01:03:34,979
nobody will
ever meet this.

1664
01:03:34,979 --> 01:03:37,424
Need a different word and

1665
01:03:37,424 --> 01:03:39,300
we could propose one.

1666
01:03:39,300 --> 01:03:40,530
I know we've talked

1667
01:03:40,530 --> 01:03:42,630
about a couple of

1668
01:03:42,630 --> 01:03:45,480
years now and maybe
there's some other ones.

1669
01:03:45,480 --> 01:03:48,255
This issue you raised that

1670
01:03:48,255 --> 01:03:49,500
your recent discovery of

1671
01:03:49,500 --> 01:03:50,519
one or two districts which

1672
01:03:50,519 --> 01:03:52,919
have substantial
vacant land

1673
01:03:52,919 --> 01:03:54,300
within their
district boundaries

1674
01:03:54,300 --> 01:03:56,509
beyond what serve today.

1675
01:03:56,509 --> 01:03:59,339
You guys have I
read the rule the

1676
01:03:59,339 --> 01:04:00,449
day it would allow those

1677
01:04:00,449 --> 01:04:02,340
areas to be fully served.

1678
01:04:02,340 --> 01:04:04,080
The current language, do

1679
01:04:04,080 --> 01:04:05,550
you it's not clear to me

1680
01:04:05,550 --> 01:04:06,749
where you're going
with that or do

1681
01:04:06,749 --> 01:04:08,370
you guys have a revised
recommendation?

1682
01:04:08,370 --> 01:04:09,210
Well, you know what
you might ask,

1683
01:04:09,210 --> 01:04:10,170
why is the recommendation?

1684
01:04:10,170 --> 01:04:11,640
First of all, we don't

1685
01:04:11,640 --> 01:04:14,145
have all the data in yet.

1686
01:04:14,145 --> 01:04:17,534
And we know that

1687
01:04:17,534 --> 01:04:19,499
we have a map here
of Bear Creek.

1688
01:04:19,499 --> 01:04:21,794
It's on the up behind you.

1689
01:04:21,794 --> 01:04:24,180
You can That's the
district boundary,

1690
01:04:24,180 --> 01:04:26,145
that outer line.

1691
01:04:26,145 --> 01:04:28,769
And an awful lot of that

1692
01:04:28,769 --> 01:04:30,195
is in urban
growth boundaries

1693
01:04:30,195 --> 01:04:31,275
would not follow that.

1694
01:04:31,275 --> 01:04:33,099
Same side.

1695
01:04:36,920 --> 01:04:40,469
But an awful lot of
that boundary is

1696
01:04:40,469 --> 01:04:41,655
any GBs and a lot of it

1697
01:04:41,655 --> 01:04:43,469
is already served
with sewer.

1698
01:04:43,469 --> 01:04:44,910
But some percentage of

1699
01:04:44,910 --> 01:04:47,790
that might be a
large percentage.

1700
01:04:47,790 --> 01:04:49,200
We're still trying to get

1701
01:04:49,200 --> 01:04:52,125
all the information is
not currently served.

1702
01:04:52,125 --> 01:04:53,504
Those folks are paying

1703
01:04:53,504 --> 01:04:55,079
taxes to the
sanitary authority.

1704
01:04:55,079 --> 01:05:00,420
There had been part of
the district services.

1705
01:05:00,420 --> 01:05:02,639
Well, presumably,

1706
01:05:02,639 --> 01:05:04,769
I guess I don't know all
the answers to that.

1707
01:05:04,769 --> 01:05:07,560
But at any rate,

1708
01:05:07,560 --> 01:05:09,570
some of the testimony
we received was

1709
01:05:09,570 --> 01:05:11,384
from people who said,

1710
01:05:11,384 --> 01:05:13,889
I'm part of this authority,
I'm paying taxes.

1711
01:05:13,889 --> 01:05:15,210
I wanna be able to hook up

1712
01:05:15,210 --> 01:05:16,695
my house when I get
ready to build it?

1713
01:05:16,695 --> 01:05:18,209
No, I don t know
what this one

1714
01:05:18,209 --> 01:05:19,845
does things that
way or not.

1715
01:05:19,845 --> 01:05:24,239
However, we don t

1716
01:05:24,239 --> 01:05:26,160
think this is a
problem that's

1717
01:05:26,160 --> 01:05:27,929
faces very many areas

1718
01:05:27,929 --> 01:05:29,190
of the state would
probably only talking

1719
01:05:29,190 --> 01:05:30,390
about a couple of
three districts

1720
01:05:30,390 --> 01:05:33,674
where isis right now,

1721
01:05:33,674 --> 01:05:34,949
you don't have you

1722
01:05:34,949 --> 01:05:36,554
don't have a
policy on this.

1723
01:05:36,554 --> 01:05:40,184
It's unclear whether
Bear Creek could extend

1724
01:05:40,184 --> 01:05:45,089
the sewer line
some distance

1725
01:05:45,089 --> 01:05:47,114
to hook something up

1726
01:05:47,114 --> 01:05:49,185
because it was already
existing out there.

1727
01:05:49,185 --> 01:05:51,029
We've we think the
interpretation of

1728
01:05:51,029 --> 01:05:53,670
your 94 rules could

1729
01:05:53,670 --> 01:05:55,499
be made that you can
extend that sewer line.

1730
01:05:55,499 --> 01:05:57,239
I think that's a
reasonable interpretation.

1731
01:05:57,239 --> 01:05:58,169
We've heard other people

1732
01:05:58,169 --> 01:05:59,415
say that that's not clear.

1733
01:05:59,415 --> 01:06:01,635
We think you should
have a clear policy.

1734
01:06:01,635 --> 01:06:04,515
If this is an
opportunity to do that.

1735
01:06:04,515 --> 01:06:06,014
We proposed one
way to do it,

1736
01:06:06,014 --> 01:06:07,139
which is just to
let those lines

1737
01:06:07,139 --> 01:06:08,400
going up to the
boundaries.

1738
01:06:08,400 --> 01:06:09,975
Another way to
do it, which

1739
01:06:09,975 --> 01:06:12,044
we were seriously
considering is

1740
01:06:12,044 --> 01:06:15,464
perhaps a proposal whereby

1741
01:06:15,464 --> 01:06:17,999
properties within
some distance

1742
01:06:17,999 --> 01:06:19,680
of existing lines
may hookup,

1743
01:06:19,680 --> 01:06:23,535
but new laterals, new
mains would have to be

1744
01:06:23,535 --> 01:06:24,239
installed either

1745
01:06:24,239 --> 01:06:25,604
through the
exception process

1746
01:06:25,604 --> 01:06:28,065
or because of an,
of a health hazard.

1747
01:06:28,065 --> 01:06:30,569
We might float that as

1748
01:06:30,569 --> 01:06:33,060
an alternative for
the next round.

1749
01:06:33,060 --> 01:06:34,740
But under the current
language and they

1750
01:06:34,740 --> 01:06:36,390
can extend to the edge
of that boundary,

1751
01:06:36,390 --> 01:06:36,719
whether it's

1752
01:06:36,719 --> 01:06:40,379
inside under the
proposed language.

1753
01:06:40,379 --> 01:06:42,189
That's correct.

1754
01:06:43,250 --> 01:06:46,980
Again, we didn't
anticipate the scale of

1755
01:06:46,980 --> 01:06:49,829
the problem and it might
be that Bear Creek,

1756
01:06:49,829 --> 01:06:51,090
it's the only place
where we have that

1757
01:06:51,090 --> 01:06:53,440
problem to any extent.

1758
01:06:53,630 --> 01:06:55,769
Starting to look
like, could we use

1759
01:06:55,769 --> 01:06:57,780
the same thing as

1760
01:06:57,780 --> 01:06:59,760
you've got for
water, for sewer?

1761
01:06:59,760 --> 01:07:01,799
I mean, can we just
have a parallel thing?

1762
01:07:01,799 --> 01:07:03,254
That's a third
way we could go.

1763
01:07:03,254 --> 01:07:04,484
We could say that you

1764
01:07:04,484 --> 01:07:06,090
could run the sewer lines,

1765
01:07:06,090 --> 01:07:08,129
but you couldn't increase

1766
01:07:08,129 --> 01:07:10,539
the density
because of them.

1767
01:07:10,910 --> 01:07:14,220
Department's position
is that sewer lines

1768
01:07:14,220 --> 01:07:15,599
should be thought of in

1769
01:07:15,599 --> 01:07:17,550
the same manner
as, say, highways.

1770
01:07:17,550 --> 01:07:19,380
These are a facility

1771
01:07:19,380 --> 01:07:21,390
that is far more
permanent than Zoning.

1772
01:07:21,390 --> 01:07:23,760
Once that's out there.

1773
01:07:23,760 --> 01:07:26,580
I think the we
have to think

1774
01:07:26,580 --> 01:07:29,790
about its effect in
the long term and

1775
01:07:29,790 --> 01:07:32,474
about the fact
that it's going to

1776
01:07:32,474 --> 01:07:36,345
outlast current
political situation in

1777
01:07:36,345 --> 01:07:37,859
a particular county
or city down

1778
01:07:37,859 --> 01:07:40,739
their future leaders
will receive

1779
01:07:40,739 --> 01:07:43,155
requests to
subdivide further

1780
01:07:43,155 --> 01:07:44,399
or do other things because

1781
01:07:44,399 --> 01:07:45,449
there's a sewer
line out there.

1782
01:07:45,449 --> 01:07:46,979
And for that reason,

1783
01:07:46,979 --> 01:07:48,720
our inclination
is to propose

1784
01:07:48,720 --> 01:07:50,009
instead something
as we have

1785
01:07:50,009 --> 01:07:50,789
done throughout

1786
01:07:50,789 --> 01:07:52,139
this process with
these rules,

1787
01:07:52,139 --> 01:07:54,855
something that keeps
the sewer lines

1788
01:07:54,855 --> 01:07:56,400
from going into
rural area.

1789
01:07:56,400 --> 01:07:57,839
And I think that's
that should be

1790
01:07:57,839 --> 01:07:59,550
the policy we rely on.

1791
01:07:59,550 --> 01:08:01,019
You'll hear from
people today and

1792
01:08:01,019 --> 01:08:02,789
throughout the
process who say you

1793
01:08:02,789 --> 01:08:04,409
shouldn't rely on

1794
01:08:04,409 --> 01:08:06,719
services to
regulate density,

1795
01:08:06,719 --> 01:08:08,220
you should rely
only on zoning.

1796
01:08:08,220 --> 01:08:09,810
And I wish it was that

1797
01:08:09,810 --> 01:08:11,640
we could say that zoning
was strong enough,

1798
01:08:11,640 --> 01:08:13,199
but we don't
believe that it

1799
01:08:13,199 --> 01:08:16,125
is watering the
different sorry,

1800
01:08:16,125 --> 01:08:17,834
What is water
any different?

1801
01:08:17,834 --> 01:08:20,084
One of the reasons that
water is different

1802
01:08:20,084 --> 01:08:22,050
is that water is already

1803
01:08:22,050 --> 01:08:26,954
prevalent over the
state and rural areas.

1804
01:08:26,954 --> 01:08:29,535
Already there is
a big problem.

1805
01:08:29,535 --> 01:08:31,989
It's a lot of places

1806
01:08:33,950 --> 01:08:36,719
you could treat water
in the same manner,

1807
01:08:36,719 --> 01:08:41,174
but giving folks
drink of clean water.

1808
01:08:41,174 --> 01:08:43,109
I think that's a
little different issue

1809
01:08:43,109 --> 01:08:44,640
than trying to

1810
01:08:44,640 --> 01:08:46,500
have probably often

1811
01:08:46,500 --> 01:08:49,709
publicly financed
sewer lines.

1812
01:08:49,709 --> 01:08:52,275
Pretty offensive
facility to

1813
01:08:52,275 --> 01:08:54,525
when there are on-site
options available.

1814
01:08:54,525 --> 01:08:56,050
Often.

1815
01:08:58,580 --> 01:09:01,950
The process that we

1816
01:09:01,950 --> 01:09:04,169
developed these involves
a working group.

1817
01:09:04,169 --> 01:09:05,399
The working group
is looking as

1818
01:09:05,399 --> 01:09:06,990
the staff report
talks about

1819
01:09:06,990 --> 01:09:10,274
looking at more than
just L CDC rules.

1820
01:09:10,274 --> 01:09:12,840
We're looking at DQ rules.

1821
01:09:12,840 --> 01:09:16,709
And I think especially
we're hoping that

1822
01:09:16,709 --> 01:09:19,469
the EQ will be
responsible for

1823
01:09:19,469 --> 01:09:20,730
giving us a process either

1824
01:09:20,730 --> 01:09:22,214
in rules or otherwise,

1825
01:09:22,214 --> 01:09:23,640
for deciding when do you

1826
01:09:23,640 --> 01:09:25,199
legitimately have
a health problem?

1827
01:09:25,199 --> 01:09:26,950
I don't know that.

1828
01:09:26,950 --> 01:09:29,045
In the driver's
seat for that,

1829
01:09:29,045 --> 01:09:30,575
we will adopt something.

1830
01:09:30,575 --> 01:09:31,684
You can adopt something.

1831
01:09:31,684 --> 01:09:34,715
You can decide how
to declare that.

1832
01:09:34,715 --> 01:09:36,499
We will be looking
at the EQ to give

1833
01:09:36,499 --> 01:09:39,019
us a pretty good process.

1834
01:09:39,019 --> 01:09:42,019
We're also looking
at EDD programs

1835
01:09:42,019 --> 01:09:43,144
for financing

1836
01:09:43,144 --> 01:09:44,509
and dequeue programs for

1837
01:09:44,509 --> 01:09:47,509
financing rural
facilities.

1838
01:09:47,509 --> 01:09:50,120
The report on
those programs and

1839
01:09:50,120 --> 01:09:52,505
to the extent to
which those criteria

1840
01:09:52,505 --> 01:09:55,730
encourage or allow
the services

1841
01:09:55,730 --> 01:09:58,294
is probably a couple
of months away.

1842
01:09:58,294 --> 01:09:59,240
It will go to

1843
01:09:59,240 --> 01:10:00,409
the Community
Solutions Team,

1844
01:10:00,409 --> 01:10:01,114
Governance Committee,

1845
01:10:01,114 --> 01:10:02,884
loosens team and maybe

1846
01:10:02,884 --> 01:10:05,240
other avenues
wouldn't be up to you

1847
01:10:05,240 --> 01:10:07,280
to see whether
we can change

1848
01:10:07,280 --> 01:10:08,660
those policies if assuming

1849
01:10:08,660 --> 01:10:10,710
that there's
problems with them.

1850
01:10:17,140 --> 01:10:18,964
Clarify.

1851
01:10:18,964 --> 01:10:21,785
You said this body
would determine

1852
01:10:21,785 --> 01:10:24,979
if it was a no,
I am sorry.

1853
01:10:24,979 --> 01:10:27,500
What I said is that we

1854
01:10:27,500 --> 01:10:30,064
have to have some
definition of what is the,

1855
01:10:30,064 --> 01:10:31,489
what is the meaning of

1856
01:10:31,489 --> 01:10:33,634
the term to protect
public health?

1857
01:10:33,634 --> 01:10:35,525
I think we need that.

1858
01:10:35,525 --> 01:10:36,589
You've heard that from

1859
01:10:36,589 --> 01:10:38,644
the testimony and
some of the hearings.

1860
01:10:38,644 --> 01:10:41,690
And we knew
going into this,

1861
01:10:41,690 --> 01:10:42,935
we needed some idea

1862
01:10:42,935 --> 01:10:44,119
of what is a
health hazard,

1863
01:10:44,119 --> 01:10:45,859
what does a
healthy, what is

1864
01:10:45,859 --> 01:10:47,270
the thing that we're

1865
01:10:47,270 --> 01:10:49,159
making an exception
for a health problem?

1866
01:10:49,159 --> 01:10:51,619
We don't have a
defined health

1867
01:10:51,619 --> 01:10:54,689
and the health division.

1868
01:10:55,040 --> 01:10:58,650
There are a
definition at this.

1869
01:10:58,650 --> 01:10:59,790
You have to distinguish

1870
01:10:59,790 --> 01:11:03,669
between health
hazard problem.

1871
01:11:10,970 --> 01:11:13,470
The problem is that
health hazard is

1872
01:11:13,470 --> 01:11:15,119
in the statute as
it is a process.

1873
01:11:15,119 --> 01:11:16,350
That's I mean, it's it's

1874
01:11:16,350 --> 01:11:17,984
technical, it's political.

1875
01:11:17,984 --> 01:11:19,320
It's very complicated.

1876
01:11:19,320 --> 01:11:20,550
It hardly ever gets used.

1877
01:11:20,550 --> 01:11:22,770
I don't know all the
reasons why it's so

1878
01:11:22,770 --> 01:11:25,410
hard to declare an
apparently some things

1879
01:11:25,410 --> 01:11:26,745
that are very serious
and we still,

1880
01:11:26,745 --> 01:11:28,800
it's very difficult
to get a declaration

1881
01:11:28,800 --> 01:11:29,519
of a health hazard

1882
01:11:29,519 --> 01:11:30,870
because it's so
rarely used,

1883
01:11:30,870 --> 01:11:32,099
because it's so
hard to use.

1884
01:11:32,099 --> 01:11:36,209
We don't want to use
it. What we're doing.

1885
01:11:36,209 --> 01:11:40,019
Well, I don't think
that will excuse.

1886
01:11:40,019 --> 01:11:41,969
I guess what we're
exploring is

1887
01:11:41,969 --> 01:11:43,320
can we come up with
something else?

1888
01:11:43,320 --> 01:11:45,150
We could use it. You guys

1889
01:11:45,150 --> 01:11:46,709
could decide you
think that's what we

1890
01:11:46,709 --> 01:11:48,149
ought to define
health problem

1891
01:11:48,149 --> 01:11:49,739
as we're going to propose

1892
01:11:49,739 --> 01:11:53,505
to you some other
kind of definition.

1893
01:11:53,505 --> 01:11:56,640
The sidebars to the
health hazard declaration

1894
01:11:56,640 --> 01:11:57,810
or that if you declare

1895
01:11:57,810 --> 01:11:59,490
something a health hazard.

1896
01:11:59,490 --> 01:12:01,620
Now, those
residents have to

1897
01:12:01,620 --> 01:12:03,555
solve that in 60 days.

1898
01:12:03,555 --> 01:12:05,444
And there's a man,

1899
01:12:05,444 --> 01:12:07,980
you're mandated once
that declaration occurs,

1900
01:12:07,980 --> 01:12:10,425
It's mandated that
it'd be solved

1901
01:12:10,425 --> 01:12:11,999
within a very
short timeframe,

1902
01:12:11,999 --> 01:12:13,545
usually very expensive.

1903
01:12:13,545 --> 01:12:16,110
And because of all that,

1904
01:12:16,110 --> 01:12:18,405
you think you
may recall some

1905
01:12:18,405 --> 01:12:19,650
years ago the big

1906
01:12:19,650 --> 01:12:20,924
controversy in
North Albany,

1907
01:12:20,924 --> 01:12:22,574
which was going to be

1908
01:12:22,574 --> 01:12:24,299
a declaration
on the result

1909
01:12:24,299 --> 01:12:25,529
was gonna be
annexation to Albany.

1910
01:12:25,529 --> 01:12:28,050
I mean, there's
always so many sort

1911
01:12:28,050 --> 01:12:29,099
of side issues to

1912
01:12:29,099 --> 01:12:30,629
that declaration
and there's

1913
01:12:30,629 --> 01:12:32,880
no funding by the
way, to the process.

1914
01:12:32,880 --> 01:12:34,500
Currently, legislature
hasn't funded it

1915
01:12:34,500 --> 01:12:36,420
probably because it's
so controversial.

1916
01:12:36,420 --> 01:12:39,945
We don't necessarily
want to use it.

1917
01:12:39,945 --> 01:12:42,869
You may think it
would be better.

1918
01:12:42,869 --> 01:12:43,979
Would it be better to

1919
01:12:43,979 --> 01:12:45,659
describe a health problem,

1920
01:12:45,659 --> 01:12:47,819
to have the EQ be

1921
01:12:47,819 --> 01:12:49,979
in the driver's seat
to declare these.

1922
01:12:49,979 --> 01:12:52,679
There's no obligation
once you've declared

1923
01:12:52,679 --> 01:12:54,015
a health problem that it's

1924
01:12:54,015 --> 01:12:55,680
going to be
served by sewer.

1925
01:12:55,680 --> 01:12:57,554
In fact, we would
rather it wasn't.

1926
01:12:57,554 --> 01:13:00,165
But we we we think
that there should be

1927
01:13:00,165 --> 01:13:01,410
an objective process to

1928
01:13:01,410 --> 01:13:04,440
decide what are
the 40 or 50.

1929
01:13:04,440 --> 01:13:05,864
I don't know the
numbers exactly.

1930
01:13:05,864 --> 01:13:07,470
Areas in rural areas and

1931
01:13:07,470 --> 01:13:09,899
Oregon that we
know are have

1932
01:13:09,899 --> 01:13:12,420
serious problems
that nobody is able

1933
01:13:12,420 --> 01:13:14,070
to resolve and may

1934
01:13:14,070 --> 01:13:15,360
still not be able
to resolve it.

1935
01:13:15,360 --> 01:13:18,179
And if we do this because
they can't afford

1936
01:13:18,179 --> 01:13:19,560
or can't get
agreement among

1937
01:13:19,560 --> 01:13:21,555
the residents are for
a variety of reasons.

1938
01:13:21,555 --> 01:13:22,979
There isn't a sewer or

1939
01:13:22,979 --> 01:13:24,509
some other solution
being put forth,

1940
01:13:24,509 --> 01:13:26,354
but once in awhile

1941
01:13:26,354 --> 01:13:27,539
and this just recently

1942
01:13:27,539 --> 01:13:28,740
happened in
Douglas County,

1943
01:13:28,740 --> 01:13:30,794
you do get the
residents able to

1944
01:13:30,794 --> 01:13:33,525
get together and
propose a solution.

1945
01:13:33,525 --> 01:13:36,480
And the legislative,
couple of

1946
01:13:36,480 --> 01:13:37,769
legislators actually
brought this to

1947
01:13:37,769 --> 01:13:38,609
our attention
and we'd heard

1948
01:13:38,609 --> 01:13:39,479
it from other quarters.

1949
01:13:39,479 --> 01:13:40,844
And once that's done,

1950
01:13:40,844 --> 01:13:43,605
now, they faced the
prospect of an exception.

1951
01:13:43,605 --> 01:13:45,930
You have one
resident didn't like

1952
01:13:45,930 --> 01:13:47,280
the notion that they
were going to have

1953
01:13:47,280 --> 01:13:48,960
to pay for sewers
in their area.

1954
01:13:48,960 --> 01:13:52,259
And they can and will
appeal in that case.

1955
01:13:52,259 --> 01:13:55,709
As we hear often about
appeals to exceptions.

1956
01:13:55,709 --> 01:13:57,119
And I guess there are

1957
01:13:57,119 --> 01:14:02,114
some easier to win
those kinds of appeals.

1958
01:14:02,114 --> 01:14:04,620
So we're just
simply proposing we

1959
01:14:04,620 --> 01:14:07,275
remove the epsilon
requirement.

1960
01:14:07,275 --> 01:14:08,790
I don't think we are

1961
01:14:08,790 --> 01:14:10,275
definitely not
trying to mandate

1962
01:14:10,275 --> 01:14:12,615
any sewer
solution anywhere

1963
01:14:12,615 --> 01:14:14,939
as the health hazards
statute does.

1964
01:14:14,939 --> 01:14:25,380
We just wanted to
hear from folks that

1965
01:14:25,380 --> 01:14:26,910
they don't have that
many to take testimony

1966
01:14:26,910 --> 01:14:27,989
and we can keep
the discussion

1967
01:14:27,989 --> 01:14:36,869
going back and having
a lot more discussion.

1968
01:14:36,869 --> 01:14:39,239
Just remind folks in
the audience we're

1969
01:14:39,239 --> 01:14:42,209
taking sign-ups
on this till 145.

1970
01:14:42,209 --> 01:14:43,170
So if there's anybody

1971
01:14:43,170 --> 01:14:44,235
else who wants to sign up,

1972
01:14:44,235 --> 01:14:46,559
you need to do it
before that time.

1973
01:14:46,559 --> 01:14:49,995
First-person as Roy Burns.

1974
01:14:49,995 --> 01:14:52,650
Because we do have
one other major item

1975
01:14:52,650 --> 01:14:53,609
is happening and
I am going to put

1976
01:14:53,609 --> 01:14:54,599
the timer on this time.

1977
01:14:54,599 --> 01:14:56,265
I didn't last time, so

1978
01:14:56,265 --> 01:14:59,200
I'll let you know when
your 3 min is up.

1979
01:15:06,530 --> 01:15:08,565
Be covered.

1980
01:15:08,565 --> 01:15:09,974
For the record.

1981
01:15:09,974 --> 01:15:11,399
My name is Roy Burns.

1982
01:15:11,399 --> 01:15:13,379
I'm intergovernmental
relations coordinator

1983
01:15:13,379 --> 01:15:14,594
for Lane County.

1984
01:15:14,594 --> 01:15:17,549
This testimony has been
submitted previously,

1985
01:15:17,549 --> 01:15:19,110
but I did want to talk

1986
01:15:19,110 --> 01:15:20,639
briefly to the
commission about

1987
01:15:20,639 --> 01:15:22,365
a couple of concerns

1988
01:15:22,365 --> 01:15:24,360
dealing with the
sewer extension.

1989
01:15:24,360 --> 01:15:26,069
And that is number one,

1990
01:15:26,069 --> 01:15:28,589
I think there are issues.

1991
01:15:28,589 --> 01:15:31,664
Beyond public
health concerns,

1992
01:15:31,664 --> 01:15:36,240
which sewer extension
need to be considered?

1993
01:15:36,240 --> 01:15:38,655
In our area.

1994
01:15:38,655 --> 01:15:42,180
We have a regional
landfill that

1995
01:15:42,180 --> 01:15:45,599
serves primarily the
metropolitan area,

1996
01:15:45,599 --> 01:15:49,320
that 80% of the
garbage goes there.

1997
01:15:49,320 --> 01:15:51,089
We have a
leachate problem.

1998
01:15:51,089 --> 01:15:52,350
There are a number of

1999
01:15:52,350 --> 01:15:54,704
feasible alternatives
ranging from

2000
01:15:54,704 --> 01:15:58,050
on-site treatment
to transport

2001
01:15:58,050 --> 01:15:59,894
and trucks of
the leachate.

2002
01:15:59,894 --> 01:16:04,109
However, one alternative
is the potential for

2003
01:16:04,109 --> 01:16:07,110
a transport of
the waist by

2004
01:16:07,110 --> 01:16:08,370
a pressure line back to

2005
01:16:08,370 --> 01:16:10,690
the regional
treatment facility.

2006
01:16:10,690 --> 01:16:14,209
This we are
concerned is a type

2007
01:16:14,209 --> 01:16:17,389
of extension that
would be prohibited.

2008
01:16:17,389 --> 01:16:20,119
Language word
to stay as you

2009
01:16:20,119 --> 01:16:22,985
have a prepared We'd like

2010
01:16:22,985 --> 01:16:24,455
consideration for

2011
01:16:24,455 --> 01:16:27,110
perhaps a broader
definition of

2012
01:16:27,110 --> 01:16:29,779
the types of situations

2013
01:16:29,779 --> 01:16:33,240
in which problems
need to be solved.

2014
01:16:34,210 --> 01:16:38,270
The second issue is

2015
01:16:38,270 --> 01:16:42,349
that it wouldn't fall

2016
01:16:42,349 --> 01:16:48,029
within what we consider
to be L potential.

2017
01:16:48,070 --> 01:16:51,349
And finally, we think

2018
01:16:51,349 --> 01:16:54,149
that no feasible
alternative isn't.

2019
01:16:54,740 --> 01:16:56,940
Pragmatically when

2020
01:16:56,940 --> 01:16:59,669
evaluating alternatives
quite often,

2021
01:16:59,669 --> 01:17:01,979
we make a preferred
selection

2022
01:17:01,979 --> 01:17:03,090
based on what's the most

2023
01:17:03,090 --> 01:17:04,290
environmentally sound,

2024
01:17:04,290 --> 01:17:13,244
cost-effective
alternatives that are

2025
01:17:13,244 --> 01:17:17,649
looking at some
way of not making.

2026
01:17:21,650 --> 01:17:23,730
Okay.

2027
01:17:23,730 --> 01:17:25,409
In this first example,

2028
01:17:25,409 --> 01:17:28,245
is that really a
sewer line? Yes.

2029
01:17:28,245 --> 01:17:29,280
Is that what you would be

2030
01:17:29,280 --> 01:17:30,825
a pressure sewer line.

2031
01:17:30,825 --> 01:17:31,800
Pardon?

2032
01:17:31,800 --> 01:17:33,519
Pressure. Okay.

2033
01:17:35,390 --> 01:17:38,610
You've got sewage
sewage sludge and

2034
01:17:38,610 --> 01:17:42,279
that landfill were
no, it is leachate.

2035
01:17:42,710 --> 01:17:45,360
Solid waste leachate.

2036
01:17:45,360 --> 01:17:47,235
And that's
considered sewer.

2037
01:17:47,235 --> 01:17:49,109
Well, that's pretty
powerful stuff.

2038
01:17:49,109 --> 01:17:51,990
I know its power
but doesn't fit

2039
01:17:51,990 --> 01:17:56,039
my definition of
Sui Ji then that's

2040
01:17:56,039 --> 01:17:57,345
what I was curious
about is what

2041
01:17:57,345 --> 01:18:02,669
wastewater but your but

2042
01:18:02,669 --> 01:18:03,690
obviously it's
not the kind of

2043
01:18:03,690 --> 01:18:04,919
line anybody is
going to hook up to.

2044
01:18:04,919 --> 01:18:09,869
Roy would want to

2045
01:18:09,869 --> 01:18:11,939
know that because
I assumed to be

2046
01:18:11,939 --> 01:18:13,785
a red eyes at least
to your needs.

2047
01:18:13,785 --> 01:18:17,625
But plus the intermingling
with their other,

2048
01:18:17,625 --> 01:18:18,840
there are other ways of

2049
01:18:18,840 --> 01:18:20,550
controlling access to it.

2050
01:18:20,550 --> 01:18:22,739
But yes, theoretically on

2051
01:18:22,739 --> 01:18:25,480
that pressure line it
could be designed.

2052
01:18:25,520 --> 01:18:28,410
Still need to have

2053
01:18:28,410 --> 01:18:31,359
controls in place to
prevent connection.

2054
01:18:33,410 --> 01:18:34,829
Okay, thanks.

2055
01:18:34,829 --> 01:18:35,430
But if you can send

2056
01:18:35,430 --> 01:18:36,630
a man to the
moon and back,

2057
01:18:36,630 --> 01:18:38,004
you can certainly
deal with sewage

2058
01:18:38,004 --> 01:18:43,350
and backhaul McCurdy.

2059
01:18:43,350 --> 01:18:45,450
Sorry. I had she

2060
01:18:45,450 --> 01:18:46,230
needs to get
out of here and

2061
01:18:46,230 --> 01:18:48,129
I said I would take her.

2062
01:18:52,700 --> 01:18:54,120
Good afternoon.

2063
01:18:54,120 --> 01:18:55,200
Commission members
married Kyle

2064
01:18:55,200 --> 01:18:57,369
McCurdy with
1,000 friends.

2065
01:19:01,580 --> 01:19:03,810
I think it's still
very much a work in

2066
01:19:03,810 --> 01:19:05,580
progress and I think
we will be able

2067
01:19:05,580 --> 01:19:09,000
to put ans rather

2068
01:19:09,000 --> 01:19:11,920
than going over some
of the definitionally,

2069
01:19:15,830 --> 01:19:18,720
which is the situation

2070
01:19:18,720 --> 01:19:21,579
where a sewer district
boundary is larger.

2071
01:19:24,440 --> 01:19:29,230
Currently written.
While the establishment

2072
01:19:36,260 --> 01:19:40,140
and to date the work the
working group is not

2073
01:19:40,140 --> 01:19:43,919
known how many of those
situations exist,

2074
01:19:43,919 --> 01:19:45,540
except for the Bear

2075
01:19:45,540 --> 01:19:46,994
Creek Valley
sanitary authority,

2076
01:19:46,994 --> 01:19:48,254
the map you have
over there,

2077
01:19:48,254 --> 01:19:49,500
it sounds like your
department's been

2078
01:19:49,500 --> 01:19:51,179
getting in some
more information,

2079
01:19:51,179 --> 01:19:53,280
but I think it's critical

2080
01:19:53,280 --> 01:19:57,720
that we not language

2081
01:19:57,720 --> 01:19:59,009
development until we have

2082
01:19:59,009 --> 01:20:00,720
adequate data as to how

2083
01:20:00,720 --> 01:20:02,580
extensive the problem may

2084
01:20:02,580 --> 01:20:05,200
be and how many, how much.

2085
01:20:05,660 --> 01:20:08,040
I'd be hesitant
at this point to

2086
01:20:08,040 --> 01:20:09,180
recommend a cure to you

2087
01:20:09,180 --> 01:20:11,199
until we have that data.

2088
01:20:13,850 --> 01:20:16,350
Bank called the suggestion

2089
01:20:16,350 --> 01:20:17,879
of using the parallel
approach with

2090
01:20:17,879 --> 01:20:20,010
water wood that I

2091
01:20:20,010 --> 01:20:22,050
share your concern
and I agree with you.

2092
01:20:22,050 --> 01:20:22,680
We should wait until we

2093
01:20:22,680 --> 01:20:23,370
see how big the problem

2094
01:20:23,370 --> 01:20:24,900
is, but is that an option?

2095
01:20:24,900 --> 01:20:29,205
Like Bob's analogy
of it to a highway?

2096
01:20:29,205 --> 01:20:31,389
Okay.

2097
01:20:32,300 --> 01:20:34,020
Best of all worlds,

2098
01:20:34,020 --> 01:20:36,460
maybe zoning would
be the answer.

2099
01:20:43,640 --> 01:20:46,090
Thank you.

2100
01:20:47,730 --> 01:20:50,279
Have a dual Duo.

2101
01:20:50,279 --> 01:20:54,429
Next, Roberta young and
Dennis Killingsworth.

2102
01:20:56,630 --> 01:21:06,630
Eq, job

2103
01:21:06,630 --> 01:21:07,710
loss or for the record,

2104
01:21:07,710 --> 01:21:08,879
my name is Rudi
on them with

2105
01:21:08,879 --> 01:21:11,225
DQ and with me as verdict.

2106
01:21:11,225 --> 01:21:12,615
Yeah. Be sure
to use a mike.

2107
01:21:12,615 --> 01:21:13,394
I'm sorry.

2108
01:21:13,394 --> 01:21:14,280
There's people but behind

2109
01:21:14,280 --> 01:21:15,330
the can here
you need to use

2110
01:21:15,330 --> 01:21:20,949
them like Fischer
projection.

2111
01:21:25,010 --> 01:21:28,289
The two issues
that dq would

2112
01:21:28,289 --> 01:21:29,160
like to see addressed

2113
01:21:29,160 --> 01:21:31,335
in this rulemaking
process.

2114
01:21:31,335 --> 01:21:33,209
Distinct
development and new

2115
01:21:33,209 --> 01:21:35,760
development with
existing development,

2116
01:21:35,760 --> 01:21:38,310
we would like to see an
improved process for

2117
01:21:38,310 --> 01:21:41,714
resolving sewer system
or on-site system,

2118
01:21:41,714 --> 01:21:44,589
areas that have
failing systems

2119
01:21:46,850 --> 01:21:49,485
in rural lands.

2120
01:21:49,485 --> 01:21:52,379
And secondly, with
new development,

2121
01:21:52,379 --> 01:21:55,364
we would like
to re-examine

2122
01:21:55,364 --> 01:21:57,674
the individual on-site

2123
01:21:57,674 --> 01:21:59,429
limitation for

2124
01:21:59,429 --> 01:22:00,959
some new development
if there are

2125
01:22:00,959 --> 01:22:03,569
other sewer
service options

2126
01:22:03,569 --> 01:22:06,074
that may be
environmentally sound.

2127
01:22:06,074 --> 01:22:09,509
Dennis and I have
worked with the DLC

2128
01:22:09,509 --> 01:22:14,010
to have developed
some language

2129
01:22:14,010 --> 01:22:16,739
that I believe is
in your packet.

2130
01:22:16,739 --> 01:22:19,379
We have not had
an opportunity

2131
01:22:19,379 --> 01:22:21,449
to review our
language with DLC,

2132
01:22:21,449 --> 01:22:23,429
the staff or the
health division,

2133
01:22:23,429 --> 01:22:25,680
which is Chindia
in our language.

2134
01:22:25,680 --> 01:22:28,380
And we at this point

2135
01:22:28,380 --> 01:22:29,879
would like to
continue working on

2136
01:22:29,879 --> 01:22:33,600
these issues
and concern in

2137
01:22:33,600 --> 01:22:36,389
terms of some options

2138
01:22:36,389 --> 01:22:38,535
by me adoption adopting,

2139
01:22:38,535 --> 01:22:41,414
hoped that this
would be possible.

2140
01:22:41,414 --> 01:22:45,270
The first issue that
is addressed in

2141
01:22:45,270 --> 01:22:46,860
the deal CDS staff in

2142
01:22:46,860 --> 01:22:48,765
the division
15 amendments,

2143
01:22:48,765 --> 01:22:51,944
I'm relating to creating

2144
01:22:51,944 --> 01:22:54,960
an exemption to the
exception process

2145
01:22:54,960 --> 01:22:57,640
for existing
failure areas.

2146
01:22:58,160 --> 01:23:01,110
I would like to go through

2147
01:23:01,110 --> 01:23:03,329
the reasons why we develop

2148
01:23:03,329 --> 01:23:06,509
some alternative
language to give you

2149
01:23:06,509 --> 01:23:08,759
a better understanding
of our perspective of

2150
01:23:08,759 --> 01:23:11,160
the issue under the
four conditions,

2151
01:23:11,160 --> 01:23:13,530
the need to protect
public health.

2152
01:23:13,530 --> 01:23:16,169
We would very
much like to see

2153
01:23:16,169 --> 01:23:19,125
that include
environmental problems.

2154
01:23:19,125 --> 01:23:24,344
It's not specified
that it does,

2155
01:23:24,344 --> 01:23:25,829
that it, that it would

2156
01:23:25,829 --> 01:23:28,500
get to environmental
issues.

2157
01:23:28,500 --> 01:23:30,210
So we would like to

2158
01:23:30,210 --> 01:23:31,200
see that change to include

2159
01:23:31,200 --> 01:23:34,379
human health and
environmental pollution.

2160
01:23:34,379 --> 01:23:36,480
The condition
where there's

2161
01:23:36,480 --> 01:23:39,009
no feasible alternative.

2162
01:23:41,810 --> 01:23:46,245
Would like to see that

2163
01:23:46,245 --> 01:23:48,990
expanded to address
economic factors

2164
01:23:48,990 --> 01:23:51,719
as well as
technological factor.

2165
01:23:51,719 --> 01:23:53,909
As stated, we feel that

2166
01:23:53,909 --> 01:23:56,590
it's a bit too
restrictive.

2167
01:23:57,260 --> 01:23:59,340
And the next,

2168
01:23:59,340 --> 01:24:02,760
the third condition is

2169
01:24:02,760 --> 01:24:05,939
no adverse impacts to
farm in forest land.

2170
01:24:05,939 --> 01:24:08,114
This is a very
appropriate condition.

2171
01:24:08,114 --> 01:24:10,049
But again, we wonder

2172
01:24:10,049 --> 01:24:11,970
if it would be
interpreted to

2173
01:24:11,970 --> 01:24:14,940
rigidly in that there
would be situations

2174
01:24:14,940 --> 01:24:18,570
where mitigation would
be, would be required.

2175
01:24:18,570 --> 01:24:21,300
And the same is

2176
01:24:21,300 --> 01:24:22,740
true for the
fourth condition,

2177
01:24:22,740 --> 01:24:25,889
efficient function of UVB.

2178
01:24:25,889 --> 01:24:27,660
Again, in some ways it

2179
01:24:27,660 --> 01:24:29,190
seems this is
really counter to

2180
01:24:29,190 --> 01:24:32,099
the purpose for
the exemption for

2181
01:24:32,099 --> 01:24:34,470
an exception in
that there may be

2182
01:24:34,470 --> 01:24:38,140
a need and some
paid system apps.

2183
01:24:40,760 --> 01:24:44,839
Then the second issue
that I referred

2184
01:24:44,839 --> 01:24:48,890
to relating to
redevelopment,

2185
01:24:48,890 --> 01:24:50,540
this is an issue that

2186
01:24:50,540 --> 01:24:51,229
the work group has

2187
01:24:51,229 --> 01:24:52,730
said very little
discussion

2188
01:24:52,730 --> 01:24:56,690
on and we need to
continue on this.

2189
01:24:56,690 --> 01:25:00,290
We would like to to

2190
01:25:00,290 --> 01:25:02,749
end up with a policy
that would ensure

2191
01:25:02,749 --> 01:25:06,650
environmentally
sound decisions that

2192
01:25:06,650 --> 01:25:07,730
they are made
that will not

2193
01:25:07,730 --> 01:25:11,179
threatened the protection
of resource land.

2194
01:25:11,179 --> 01:25:14,660
And we would
recommend perhaps

2195
01:25:14,660 --> 01:25:16,250
taking this issue back to

2196
01:25:16,250 --> 01:25:18,365
the community
solutions team.

2197
01:25:18,365 --> 01:25:21,689
Bison, how to proceed
without issue?

2198
01:25:26,570 --> 01:25:30,189
That's that's all
I have for today.

2199
01:25:32,090 --> 01:25:34,629
I have a question.

2200
01:25:34,730 --> 01:25:36,555
What's an exam?

2201
01:25:36,555 --> 01:25:37,589
I guess my sense is there

2202
01:25:37,589 --> 01:25:38,909
must be some
situations where

2203
01:25:38,909 --> 01:25:40,680
the public health
hazard also solves

2204
01:25:40,680 --> 01:25:42,855
a parallel
environmental problem.

2205
01:25:42,855 --> 01:25:43,829
But I take it there

2206
01:25:43,829 --> 01:25:45,059
situations where
there may be

2207
01:25:45,059 --> 01:25:47,009
an environmental
problem to the agency,

2208
01:25:47,009 --> 01:25:48,120
but we don't rise to

2209
01:25:48,120 --> 01:25:49,679
the level of the
public health problem.

2210
01:25:49,679 --> 01:25:51,390
What's an example
of those?

2211
01:25:51,390 --> 01:25:52,080
And what's

2212
01:25:52,080 --> 01:25:54,029
the environmental
damage you'd be trying

2213
01:25:54,029 --> 01:25:56,460
to we could
have nutrients,

2214
01:25:56,460 --> 01:25:57,810
dissolved oxygen,
that type

2215
01:25:57,810 --> 01:25:58,980
of thing in a
stream that's

2216
01:25:58,980 --> 01:26:01,934
actually killing
the stream.

2217
01:26:01,934 --> 01:26:04,810
Not allowing any
fisheries in.

2218
01:26:06,500 --> 01:26:09,660
State and federal
standards.

2219
01:26:09,660 --> 01:26:13,499
It wouldn't necessarily
be a bacterial load.

2220
01:26:13,499 --> 01:26:15,479
That would be a risk

2221
01:26:15,479 --> 01:26:18,399
to public health directly.

2222
01:26:19,160 --> 01:26:21,284
Again, what we're asking,

2223
01:26:21,284 --> 01:26:23,070
what we're
discussing here are,

2224
01:26:23,070 --> 01:26:25,649
are hoping to limit
the discussion to,

2225
01:26:25,649 --> 01:26:27,239
in this particular
language is

2226
01:26:27,239 --> 01:26:30,540
existing public health

2227
01:26:30,540 --> 01:26:33,210
and existing
environmental concerns,

2228
01:26:33,210 --> 01:26:34,530
magnitude and extent

2229
01:26:34,530 --> 01:26:36,494
of those environmental
problems.

2230
01:26:36,494 --> 01:26:38,339
We talked about 1,000

2231
01:26:38,339 --> 01:26:40,665
situations or I
don't think so,

2232
01:26:40,665 --> 01:26:42,495
20 situations
around the, well,

2233
01:26:42,495 --> 01:26:44,310
with the public
health ones,

2234
01:26:44,310 --> 01:26:46,650
the ones that we
can identify that

2235
01:26:46,650 --> 01:26:50,910
generally relate to
public health concerns.

2236
01:26:50,910 --> 01:26:52,110
I believe we came up with

2237
01:26:52,110 --> 01:26:53,700
a list of around 20,

2238
01:26:53,700 --> 01:26:55,829
I believe are so
half a dozen.

2239
01:26:55,829 --> 01:26:56,969
Half dozen or dozen.

2240
01:26:56,969 --> 01:26:58,320
There's about two
days. Two days.

2241
01:26:58,320 --> 01:27:04,409
We've identified question.

2242
01:27:04,409 --> 01:27:06,840
You heard Roy Burns

2243
01:27:06,840 --> 01:27:08,100
from Lane County
talk about

2244
01:27:08,100 --> 01:27:09,720
the leachate issue

2245
01:27:09,720 --> 01:27:11,910
from a landfill
potentially idea

2246
01:27:11,910 --> 01:27:13,140
of being able to
pump that back

2247
01:27:13,140 --> 01:27:14,700
into a sewer
system disposal

2248
01:27:14,700 --> 01:27:16,184
instead of but didn't go.

2249
01:27:16,184 --> 01:27:18,090
That would seem to

2250
01:27:18,090 --> 01:27:20,130
be to be an
environmental issue.

2251
01:27:20,130 --> 01:27:23,640
Any comment on that issue

2252
01:27:23,640 --> 01:27:24,809
of you talked about it as

2253
01:27:24,809 --> 01:27:26,849
an issue that you
visited a doll,

2254
01:27:26,849 --> 01:27:29,054
not discussed
that issue in

2255
01:27:29,054 --> 01:27:30,209
the workgroup or in

2256
01:27:30,209 --> 01:27:32,385
the ape or within
the agency.

2257
01:27:32,385 --> 01:27:34,245
Would you be
willing to do that?

2258
01:27:34,245 --> 01:27:35,370
Certainly.

2259
01:27:35,370 --> 01:27:37,470
Let me be clear
why I'm asking

2260
01:27:37,470 --> 01:27:40,289
that question hadn't
occurred to me before,

2261
01:27:40,289 --> 01:27:41,940
but I know that our
solid waste folks

2262
01:27:41,940 --> 01:27:43,935
were talking to the
city of wood-burning

2263
01:27:43,935 --> 01:27:50,550
about the idea of
pumping spirit spray,

2264
01:27:50,550 --> 01:27:52,905
irrigating it, which is
what we're doing now.

2265
01:27:52,905 --> 01:27:54,390
The problem is
Perrier getting

2266
01:27:54,390 --> 01:27:56,009
it's heavy and salts.

2267
01:27:56,009 --> 01:27:58,529
And so we can't
continue to let

2268
01:27:58,529 --> 01:27:59,579
the salt buildup and

2269
01:27:59,579 --> 01:28:01,215
destroy the productivity
of the soil.

2270
01:28:01,215 --> 01:28:03,569
So other than that,
it's not a problem,

2271
01:28:03,569 --> 01:28:05,309
but that is a problem.

2272
01:28:05,309 --> 01:28:07,095
Soil productivity.

2273
01:28:07,095 --> 01:28:08,804
So they were
starting to explore

2274
01:28:08,804 --> 01:28:11,370
some just very preliminary
discussions with

2275
01:28:11,370 --> 01:28:12,389
the folks and
would burn about

2276
01:28:12,389 --> 01:28:15,179
maybe what would be
the feasibility?

2277
01:28:15,179 --> 01:28:19,230
Those prayer getting
wood-burning facility?

2278
01:28:19,230 --> 01:28:21,629
It never occurred
to me that

2279
01:28:21,629 --> 01:28:25,560
it would meet the
definition of a sewer line.

2280
01:28:25,560 --> 01:28:28,020
I want you to say, Yeah,

2281
01:28:28,020 --> 01:28:28,979
it makes sense,
but it just

2282
01:28:28,979 --> 01:28:30,660
didn't occur to me.

2283
01:28:30,660 --> 01:28:32,190
So when I mentioned that I

2284
01:28:32,190 --> 01:28:34,289
my ears obviously
perked up and I'd be

2285
01:28:34,289 --> 01:28:35,759
interested if
the department

2286
01:28:35,759 --> 01:28:36,839
would be willing
to discuss that

2287
01:28:36,839 --> 01:28:38,850
a little bit and see

2288
01:28:38,850 --> 01:28:40,259
if see what you
think about that.

2289
01:28:40,259 --> 01:28:41,624
I mean, clearly
we don't want

2290
01:28:41,624 --> 01:28:42,719
to create a situation.

2291
01:28:42,719 --> 01:28:44,009
I want to make that clear

2292
01:28:44,009 --> 01:28:46,410
that we're anybody can
hook onto that line.

2293
01:28:46,410 --> 01:28:48,880
That's not our interests.

2294
01:28:48,980 --> 01:28:51,285
Anyway, that you can

2295
01:28:51,285 --> 01:28:52,875
limit that and
restrict that.

2296
01:28:52,875 --> 01:28:54,959
But again, it
seems to me there,

2297
01:28:54,959 --> 01:28:57,060
there may be some
limited situations

2298
01:28:57,060 --> 01:28:59,250
that are environmental
more than

2299
01:28:59,250 --> 01:29:01,049
public health that it

2300
01:29:01,049 --> 01:29:03,899
would make sense to
be able to do that.

2301
01:29:03,899 --> 01:29:05,220
I don't think there
are many, very

2302
01:29:05,220 --> 01:29:06,810
many of them around
and we'd have to

2303
01:29:06,810 --> 01:29:09,735
approach it
very carefully,

2304
01:29:09,735 --> 01:29:11,760
I think, with a
lot of caution,

2305
01:29:11,760 --> 01:29:12,989
but at least like to have

2306
01:29:12,989 --> 01:29:14,429
that dialogue continue.

2307
01:29:14,429 --> 01:29:16,860
And let's try to tease
that out a little

2308
01:29:16,860 --> 01:29:18,000
bit more and
see if there's

2309
01:29:18,000 --> 01:29:20,350
something there
that make sense.

2310
01:29:21,800 --> 01:29:24,749
The only challenge I'd
put two years if you

2311
01:29:24,749 --> 01:29:26,924
could develop
some side boards

2312
01:29:26,924 --> 01:29:28,950
are parameters or
definitions on

2313
01:29:28,950 --> 01:29:30,390
this environmental
problem that

2314
01:29:30,390 --> 01:29:30,960
we would add to

2315
01:29:30,960 --> 01:29:33,539
the public health
side as opposed to

2316
01:29:33,539 --> 01:29:36,569
the very subjective
term environmental.

2317
01:29:36,569 --> 01:29:38,339
Know, I don't know
whether it's involving

2318
01:29:38,339 --> 01:29:39,660
dissolved oxygen and

2319
01:29:39,660 --> 01:29:41,369
ten other things
or something else.

2320
01:29:41,369 --> 01:29:43,740
But if you could
get out, even

2321
01:29:43,740 --> 01:29:45,449
if it's for purposes
of this rule,

2322
01:29:45,449 --> 01:29:48,570
environmental
problems include that

2323
01:29:48,570 --> 01:29:49,800
would help me because

2324
01:29:49,800 --> 01:29:50,850
environmental problems

2325
01:29:50,850 --> 01:29:52,840
is a pretty broad term.

2326
01:29:54,140 --> 01:29:56,849
And the other thing
I guess I'd like to

2327
01:29:56,849 --> 01:29:59,294
know would be the
magnitude of it.

2328
01:29:59,294 --> 01:30:01,560
Not that it's not

2329
01:30:01,560 --> 01:30:02,669
worth dealing with if

2330
01:30:02,669 --> 01:30:03,899
it's of lesser magnitude.

2331
01:30:03,899 --> 01:30:04,919
There's only ten examples

2332
01:30:04,919 --> 01:30:06,240
around the state
and set of 100.

2333
01:30:06,240 --> 01:30:08,684
But that we do have the
exceptions process.

2334
01:30:08,684 --> 01:30:11,220
And frankly, would Roy
came up my reaction to

2335
01:30:11,220 --> 01:30:14,099
the unique problem
they had was,

2336
01:30:14,099 --> 01:30:15,989
well, you probably go

2337
01:30:15,989 --> 01:30:17,160
the exception
route rather than

2338
01:30:17,160 --> 01:30:18,989
fixing rule to solve
one unique problem.

2339
01:30:18,989 --> 01:30:20,129
And then Randy raises it,

2340
01:30:20,129 --> 01:30:21,030
maybe I'm wrong, maybe

2341
01:30:21,030 --> 01:30:22,485
they're a bunch
of these around.

2342
01:30:22,485 --> 01:30:23,909
By the same
token, if you had

2343
01:30:23,909 --> 01:30:25,469
20 of these iron Greeks
around the state,

2344
01:30:25,469 --> 01:30:27,359
it may not
warrant rule fix.

2345
01:30:27,359 --> 01:30:28,529
If there's more
than that, it may

2346
01:30:28,529 --> 01:30:30,480
be make more
sense to putting

2347
01:30:30,480 --> 01:30:34,199
have discussed that
in a broader concept.

2348
01:30:34,199 --> 01:30:36,360
That very thing where

2349
01:30:36,360 --> 01:30:39,164
there is just
another tool,

2350
01:30:39,164 --> 01:30:42,344
the exception process
is still there.

2351
01:30:42,344 --> 01:30:46,229
And this is what
we want to do is

2352
01:30:46,229 --> 01:30:47,534
limit this to very

2353
01:30:47,534 --> 01:30:50,759
specific existing
problem areas.

2354
01:30:50,759 --> 01:30:54,359
If it doesn't fit
within that parameter.

2355
01:30:54,359 --> 01:30:57,720
They use another tool
to get what they need.

2356
01:30:57,720 --> 01:30:59,879
We wouldn't have a problem

2357
01:30:59,879 --> 01:31:03,219
using tailoring the
exception process.

2358
01:31:10,970 --> 01:31:13,920
You have problem with
other pollutants

2359
01:31:13,920 --> 01:31:15,180
other than sewer, your

2360
01:31:15,180 --> 01:31:16,214
environmental statement.

2361
01:31:16,214 --> 01:31:18,105
I mean, I'll use
limiting your

2362
01:31:18,105 --> 01:31:22,350
environmental to
sewage a cell alone.

2363
01:31:22,350 --> 01:31:24,269
We have been in

2364
01:31:24,269 --> 01:31:25,950
our discussions regarding

2365
01:31:25,950 --> 01:31:27,419
the Goal 11 amendments.

2366
01:31:27,419 --> 01:31:30,250
We've been limited it
to sue each image.

2367
01:31:34,070 --> 01:31:39,490
You didn't get to farm
pesticide spraying?

2368
01:31:40,130 --> 01:31:42,150
I didn't know what
they were going to

2369
01:31:42,150 --> 01:31:43,559
use this rule to that,

2370
01:31:43,559 --> 01:31:44,849
to that to try to attack

2371
01:31:44,849 --> 01:31:48,520
that problem.
Just checking.

2372
01:31:50,810 --> 01:31:53,025
Thanks.

2373
01:31:53,025 --> 01:31:55,709
Phil fell again.

2374
01:31:55,709 --> 01:32:00,879
And Suzy Smith, city
of Springfield.

2375
01:32:01,040 --> 01:32:03,509
Randy, how far it would

2376
01:32:03,509 --> 01:32:05,670
burn sewer from your side?

2377
01:32:05,670 --> 01:32:09,039
20 mi across farm country.

2378
01:32:09,050 --> 01:32:14,069
No. Foreign country?
Yes. 20 mi.

2379
01:32:14,069 --> 01:32:17,759
No. We'd stay within

2380
01:32:17,759 --> 01:32:19,740
That's what I'm
guessing. Five to ten.

2381
01:32:19,740 --> 01:32:20,789
I'm terrible at distance,

2382
01:32:20,789 --> 01:32:25,210
but we'd stay within
the road right away.

2383
01:32:29,600 --> 01:32:32,219
The structures,
commission members,

2384
01:32:32,219 --> 01:32:34,739
i'm I'm sure I detected
excitement in your

2385
01:32:34,739 --> 01:32:35,969
in your voice when you

2386
01:32:35,969 --> 01:32:38,535
indicated that we
were back again.

2387
01:32:38,535 --> 01:32:40,694
I'm actually very
pleased to see you.

2388
01:32:40,694 --> 01:32:41,325
It's very good.

2389
01:32:41,325 --> 01:32:42,794
I don't see the
city's enough.

2390
01:32:42,794 --> 01:32:43,754
We don't.

2391
01:32:43,754 --> 01:32:46,440
I'm Philip fell in
league of Oregon cities.

2392
01:32:46,440 --> 01:32:47,699
And with me is ms.

2393
01:32:47,699 --> 01:32:50,519
Suzy Smith, who's the
General Manager for

2394
01:32:50,519 --> 01:32:52,199
the Metropolitan
wastewater

2395
01:32:52,199 --> 01:32:53,370
management program,

2396
01:32:53,370 --> 01:32:55,229
as well as the
Environmental Manager

2397
01:32:55,229 --> 01:32:57,235
for the city of
Springfield.

2398
01:32:57,235 --> 01:33:00,170
Suzy is here because
she understands all of

2399
01:33:00,170 --> 01:33:01,249
those things and will be

2400
01:33:01,249 --> 01:33:02,989
available for questions.

2401
01:33:02,989 --> 01:33:05,240
Let me you should

2402
01:33:05,240 --> 01:33:07,249
have been passed
out a letter from

2403
01:33:07,249 --> 01:33:08,600
the league and let me also

2404
01:33:08,600 --> 01:33:10,459
note that I have
served as a courier

2405
01:33:10,459 --> 01:33:14,420
for Aqua Tawny out.

2406
01:33:14,420 --> 01:33:16,219
I expect that's
why they are not

2407
01:33:16,219 --> 01:33:19,369
here on the legs.

2408
01:33:19,369 --> 01:33:21,229
But half, we think
that the rules

2409
01:33:21,229 --> 01:33:23,690
continued to be
somewhat incomplete.

2410
01:33:23,690 --> 01:33:26,509
We think that the
major issues here are

2411
01:33:26,509 --> 01:33:28,114
no inappropriate
development

2412
01:33:28,114 --> 01:33:30,305
outside urban
growth boundaries.

2413
01:33:30,305 --> 01:33:32,600
Local plans, I've said in

2414
01:33:32,600 --> 01:33:34,759
here the sanctity
of local plans.

2415
01:33:34,759 --> 01:33:36,140
I think we should
be allowed to

2416
01:33:36,140 --> 01:33:38,509
follow those plans
and not diverted

2417
01:33:38,509 --> 01:33:42,599
from them by unexpected
large projects.

2418
01:33:42,599 --> 01:33:44,489
And finally, we
do not think

2419
01:33:44,489 --> 01:33:46,110
that city taxpayers
should bear

2420
01:33:46,110 --> 01:33:47,939
the financial burden
of correcting

2421
01:33:47,939 --> 01:33:50,264
a problem they
did not solve.

2422
01:33:50,264 --> 01:33:52,334
We would like to see

2423
01:33:52,334 --> 01:33:56,400
external UVB extensions
restricted to

2424
01:33:56,400 --> 01:33:59,729
currently developed
lots in those areas in

2425
01:33:59,729 --> 01:34:01,139
which a hazard to

2426
01:34:01,139 --> 01:34:03,644
the public health is
declared to exist.

2427
01:34:03,644 --> 01:34:05,640
Let me defer if I may,

2428
01:34:05,640 --> 01:34:07,889
from preceding
speakers here and note

2429
01:34:07,889 --> 01:34:11,760
that we would
like a definition

2430
01:34:11,760 --> 01:34:13,305
that would
prohibit service

2431
01:34:13,305 --> 01:34:14,415
which would rectify

2432
01:34:14,415 --> 01:34:16,125
a potential health hazard

2433
01:34:16,125 --> 01:34:18,404
or an environmental
hazard.

2434
01:34:18,404 --> 01:34:21,000
We are concerned that
attempts to define

2435
01:34:21,000 --> 01:34:23,550
such additional
categories may have

2436
01:34:23,550 --> 01:34:24,929
the unintended effect of

2437
01:34:24,929 --> 01:34:27,150
allowing additional
developments rather than

2438
01:34:27,150 --> 01:34:29,474
simply eliminating
health hazards

2439
01:34:29,474 --> 01:34:32,594
that result from
existing development.

2440
01:34:32,594 --> 01:34:34,679
We do not believe that

2441
01:34:34,679 --> 01:34:36,809
the commission should
make a final decision

2442
01:34:36,809 --> 01:34:38,624
on these proposed
amendments

2443
01:34:38,624 --> 01:34:40,350
until there is
agreement with

2444
01:34:40,350 --> 01:34:41,640
dequeues language

2445
01:34:41,640 --> 01:34:44,460
describing the problems
to be addressed.

2446
01:34:44,460 --> 01:34:46,799
And I do, Mr.

2447
01:34:46,799 --> 01:34:48,010
Chair,

2448
01:34:56,060 --> 01:34:57,599
I think there

2449
01:34:57,599 --> 01:34:59,415
are more than five or ten

2450
01:34:59,415 --> 01:35:02,804
around the the state e.g.

2451
01:35:02,804 --> 01:35:04,080
a couple of subdivisions

2452
01:35:04,080 --> 01:35:05,880
outside of the urban
growth boundary until

2453
01:35:05,880 --> 01:35:08,010
the county had
been approved for

2454
01:35:08,010 --> 01:35:10,530
50 lots and for 27 lines.

2455
01:35:10,530 --> 01:35:12,764
They're small,
they're planted.

2456
01:35:12,764 --> 01:35:15,074
But they are not Seward.

2457
01:35:15,074 --> 01:35:16,620
They want to be annexed to

2458
01:35:16,620 --> 01:35:18,720
the Pacific City
Sanitary District.

2459
01:35:18,720 --> 01:35:19,979
There's an
intervening property

2460
01:35:19,979 --> 01:35:21,975
owner that doesn't want

2461
01:35:21,975 --> 01:35:24,629
question I would
think from

2462
01:35:24,629 --> 01:35:25,979
a city perspective
would be

2463
01:35:25,979 --> 01:35:28,420
why are those lots there?

2464
01:35:30,410 --> 01:35:33,405
In cases where
sewer extensions

2465
01:35:33,405 --> 01:35:34,620
are considered?

2466
01:35:34,620 --> 01:35:36,180
We think it's important to

2467
01:35:36,180 --> 01:35:38,039
assure that the
extension will

2468
01:35:38,039 --> 01:35:41,325
not impose a
financial hardship

2469
01:35:41,325 --> 01:35:43,524
on current city residents.

2470
01:35:43,524 --> 01:35:45,530
We are willing to help

2471
01:35:45,530 --> 01:35:47,345
to the degree
that we can help.

2472
01:35:47,345 --> 01:35:48,620
But we do think that

2473
01:35:48,620 --> 01:35:50,629
state agencies should
be able to assure

2474
01:35:50,629 --> 01:35:53,314
that providing
municipality that

2475
01:35:53,314 --> 01:35:54,829
the costs related to

2476
01:35:54,829 --> 01:35:56,540
line extension as well as

2477
01:35:56,540 --> 01:35:58,460
treatment capacity and

2478
01:35:58,460 --> 01:36:02,239
maintenance of
the extension

2479
01:36:02,239 --> 01:36:05,060
will be covered in
cost and will be built

2480
01:36:05,060 --> 01:36:06,830
the city standards with

2481
01:36:06,830 --> 01:36:09,349
the possible exception
of the line itself,

2482
01:36:09,349 --> 01:36:11,329
which may be smaller
to prevent to

2483
01:36:11,329 --> 01:36:12,170
assure that there will

2484
01:36:12,170 --> 01:36:14,479
be no additional hookups.

2485
01:36:14,479 --> 01:36:16,639
And we think that
the providing

2486
01:36:16,639 --> 01:36:18,155
local government should be

2487
01:36:18,155 --> 01:36:20,419
involved in evaluating

2488
01:36:20,419 --> 01:36:22,429
the proposed solutions,

2489
01:36:22,429 --> 01:36:24,170
including the
feasibility and

2490
01:36:24,170 --> 01:36:25,990
cost of the extension.

2491
01:36:25,990 --> 01:36:28,139
And finally, as I

2492
01:36:28,139 --> 01:36:30,389
said in the
penultimate sentence,

2493
01:36:30,389 --> 01:36:32,279
I think we need to scratch

2494
01:36:32,279 --> 01:36:33,494
some stuff out here.

2495
01:36:33,494 --> 01:36:35,160
Let me note that we
believe that we are in

2496
01:36:35,160 --> 01:36:35,700
agreement with

2497
01:36:35,700 --> 01:36:37,484
the Department
on these issues.

2498
01:36:37,484 --> 01:36:40,229
We may well be on
most of the issues.

2499
01:36:40,229 --> 01:36:41,550
I don't think all

2500
01:36:41,550 --> 01:36:43,605
after listening
to the testimony,

2501
01:36:43,605 --> 01:36:45,644
we would be
happy to answer.

2502
01:36:45,644 --> 01:36:46,949
Susie wouldn't
be very happy.

2503
01:36:46,949 --> 01:36:48,060
I'm sure I answer any

2504
01:36:48,060 --> 01:36:49,754
questions that
you may have.

2505
01:36:49,754 --> 01:36:51,519
Actually.

2506
01:36:55,130 --> 01:36:58,079
My role in this
has been one of

2507
01:36:58,079 --> 01:37:00,149
a crossover rule
between working

2508
01:37:00,149 --> 01:37:06,220
with planning and the
state wastewater.

2509
01:37:10,370 --> 01:37:13,185
Discussion between

2510
01:37:13,185 --> 01:37:16,180
public works
oriented wastewater,

2511
01:37:17,300 --> 01:37:22,330
responsibility on
the concerns seen.

2512
01:37:23,300 --> 01:37:32,339
One, highly supportive
ice that staff is

2513
01:37:32,339 --> 01:37:36,149
not proposing any
requirements on

2514
01:37:36,149 --> 01:37:41,054
cities or half to sewer.

2515
01:37:41,054 --> 01:37:45,480
However, the local
politics involved once

2516
01:37:45,480 --> 01:37:51,330
sewers are such that

2517
01:37:51,330 --> 01:37:54,525
we even are in
our local area.

2518
01:37:54,525 --> 01:37:57,539
Short mountain landfill
leachate project.

2519
01:37:57,539 --> 01:37:58,844
We have seen

2520
01:37:58,844 --> 01:38:02,529
the political
debate that arises.

2521
01:38:03,980 --> 01:38:07,590
Potential rural
development type

2522
01:38:07,590 --> 01:38:10,184
up and growth expansion.

2523
01:38:10,184 --> 01:38:12,990
So while we appreciate
it's enabling,

2524
01:38:12,990 --> 01:38:14,909
we also want to express

2525
01:38:14,909 --> 01:38:17,220
our apprehension
that we are

2526
01:38:17,220 --> 01:38:19,755
concerned at the presence

2527
01:38:19,755 --> 01:38:23,610
of sewer in platted
subdivisions where

2528
01:38:23,610 --> 01:38:24,899
there are still lots of

2529
01:38:24,899 --> 01:38:27,000
record that are
not develop

2530
01:38:27,000 --> 01:38:29,279
the pressures that
will come to bear on

2531
01:38:29,279 --> 01:38:32,664
local governments to
continue to expand.

2532
01:38:32,664 --> 01:38:37,040
And, and that the concerns

2533
01:38:37,040 --> 01:38:41,165
that arise for us involve
planning certainty,

2534
01:38:41,165 --> 01:38:43,340
financial capability,

2535
01:38:43,340 --> 01:38:46,070
financing mechanism
capability.

2536
01:38:46,070 --> 01:38:49,024
But also, I'm not aware

2537
01:38:49,024 --> 01:38:52,579
of urban water
providers that

2538
01:38:52,579 --> 01:38:56,225
provide wastewater
collection and

2539
01:38:56,225 --> 01:38:57,784
treatment services outside

2540
01:38:57,784 --> 01:38:59,075
urban growth boundaries

2541
01:38:59,075 --> 01:39:02,789
that have the
administrative mechanism.

2542
01:39:05,020 --> 01:39:09,364
It's something from
a cost recovery

2543
01:39:09,364 --> 01:39:13,580
and ongoing maintenance,

2544
01:39:13,580 --> 01:39:16,365
but ongoing
upkeep role that,

2545
01:39:16,365 --> 01:39:18,240
that urban government
government

2546
01:39:18,240 --> 01:39:20,700
would be taking on in.

2547
01:39:20,700 --> 01:39:25,200
So that we could

2548
01:39:25,200 --> 01:39:28,139
be involved in the
preparation of

2549
01:39:28,139 --> 01:39:32,109
financing or
feasibility analysis

2550
01:39:33,110 --> 01:39:36,240
developed to suggest what

2551
01:39:36,240 --> 01:39:40,570
the practicable
or reasonable.

2552
01:39:40,790 --> 01:39:44,715
We could ensure
that construction,

2553
01:39:44,715 --> 01:39:47,340
maintenance and
jurists side

2554
01:39:47,340 --> 01:39:50,319
urban growth boundaries
would still meet.

2555
01:39:55,220 --> 01:39:57,390
We'd like to continue to

2556
01:39:57,390 --> 01:39:58,649
work with staff just to

2557
01:39:58,649 --> 01:40:07,080
nail down some questions.

2558
01:40:07,080 --> 01:40:10,425
Just a final thought,
If I may, Mr. chair,

2559
01:40:10,425 --> 01:40:12,330
as we have looked at at

2560
01:40:12,330 --> 01:40:16,170
the example of the seams,

2561
01:40:16,170 --> 01:40:17,759
that one way of limiting

2562
01:40:17,759 --> 01:40:19,590
the extension
into the into

2563
01:40:19,590 --> 01:40:22,049
the other areas
would be to use

2564
01:40:22,049 --> 01:40:23,459
a definition that
applied it to

2565
01:40:23,459 --> 01:40:25,110
existing lots
health hazard,

2566
01:40:25,110 --> 01:40:27,344
only, some kind of

2567
01:40:27,344 --> 01:40:30,060
cost and feasibility
analysis.

2568
01:40:30,060 --> 01:40:31,440
And if you all

2569
01:40:31,440 --> 01:40:33,030
think that that
will not do it,

2570
01:40:33,030 --> 01:40:35,700
I guess I would Support

2571
01:40:35,700 --> 01:40:37,230
some kind of
limitation there

2572
01:40:37,230 --> 01:40:39,299
to make sure that we
aren't allowing that

2573
01:40:39,299 --> 01:40:42,459
to happen outside the
urban growth boundary.

2574
01:40:43,220 --> 01:40:46,440
Both of you brought up
the issue of worrying

2575
01:40:46,440 --> 01:40:49,199
about being able
to cover cost.

2576
01:40:49,199 --> 01:40:50,610
And I'm assuming this is

2577
01:40:50,610 --> 01:40:53,849
mainly for a city

2578
01:40:53,849 --> 01:40:56,115
if it was a
sanitary district.

2579
01:40:56,115 --> 01:40:58,170
I assume that
you're not you're

2580
01:40:58,170 --> 01:41:00,029
not representing a
special districts,

2581
01:41:00,029 --> 01:41:02,099
so you're you're
talking about if a city

2582
01:41:02,099 --> 01:41:05,409
is the one to whom
this sewage goes.

2583
01:41:05,750 --> 01:41:08,025
What's puzzles
means I don't see

2584
01:41:08,025 --> 01:41:09,149
what would prevent you

2585
01:41:09,149 --> 01:41:11,654
from recovering
the cost lately.

2586
01:41:11,654 --> 01:41:12,780
I mean, I just
seems to me that

2587
01:41:12,780 --> 01:41:13,860
would be instead of

2588
01:41:13,860 --> 01:41:15,419
sewer rate and you can't

2589
01:41:15,419 --> 01:41:17,910
recover it,
whatever it was.

2590
01:41:17,910 --> 01:41:20,399
It sounds like
though you are

2591
01:41:20,399 --> 01:41:21,735
really worried
that you might not

2592
01:41:21,735 --> 01:41:22,784
and I can't
figure out why.

2593
01:41:22,784 --> 01:41:25,245
Well, Mr. Chair,
our jurisdiction

2594
01:41:25,245 --> 01:41:27,179
ends at city boundaries,

2595
01:41:27,179 --> 01:41:28,589
which means we would need

2596
01:41:28,589 --> 01:41:29,849
some kind of contract.

2597
01:41:29,849 --> 01:41:30,794
Am I correct?

2598
01:41:30,794 --> 01:41:32,549
Well, why don't
I take this one?

2599
01:41:32,549 --> 01:41:33,869
Good idea?

2600
01:41:33,869 --> 01:41:37,034
Right now, the,
the practical

2601
01:41:37,034 --> 01:41:40,469
mechanisms for
cities class

2602
01:41:40,469 --> 01:41:43,289
both in terms
of capital cost

2603
01:41:43,289 --> 01:41:44,744
for capacity

2604
01:41:44,744 --> 01:41:47,429
through system
development charges.

2605
01:41:47,429 --> 01:41:49,709
And typical rate

2606
01:41:49,709 --> 01:41:53,399
recovered costs involve
relationships with

2607
01:41:53,399 --> 01:41:57,989
local going out
and reading

2608
01:41:57,989 --> 01:42:00,779
water meters as
the measure of

2609
01:42:00,779 --> 01:42:05,249
flow to determine
what sewer rates are.

2610
01:42:05,249 --> 01:42:06,960
Those utilities,

2611
01:42:06,960 --> 01:42:09,330
typically their municipal
water utilities,

2612
01:42:09,330 --> 01:42:10,979
they don't serve outside

2613
01:42:10,979 --> 01:42:13,320
the urban growth
boundary area.

2614
01:42:13,320 --> 01:42:16,275
These these plots
may be on wells.

2615
01:42:16,275 --> 01:42:18,464
We don't so we
don't have meters,

2616
01:42:18,464 --> 01:42:20,219
we don't have
meter reader,

2617
01:42:20,219 --> 01:42:22,020
meter reading capability.

2618
01:42:22,020 --> 01:42:23,490
We don't have data.

2619
01:42:23,490 --> 01:42:26,669
We don't have billing
and connect collections

2620
01:42:26,669 --> 01:42:28,679
infrastructure
because the utilities

2621
01:42:28,679 --> 01:42:31,125
also provide that for us.

2622
01:42:31,125 --> 01:42:32,850
And we don't have
the capability

2623
01:42:32,850 --> 01:42:34,260
to collect SDC

2624
01:42:34,260 --> 01:42:38,610
is planning and building
authority within.

2625
01:42:38,610 --> 01:42:40,515
Boundary areas,

2626
01:42:40,515 --> 01:42:44,220
the counties do not
provide that function.

2627
01:42:44,220 --> 01:42:46,575
So unless we explore

2628
01:42:46,575 --> 01:42:48,090
different relationships

2629
01:42:48,090 --> 01:42:49,860
in those
jurisdictions that

2630
01:42:49,860 --> 01:42:54,480
enable cities
to I don't know

2631
01:42:54,480 --> 01:42:57,270
what Counties

2632
01:42:57,270 --> 01:43:01,379
collect some kind
of mechanisms.

2633
01:43:01,379 --> 01:43:03,869
These are just their
questions for us.

2634
01:43:03,869 --> 01:43:05,759
We haven't faced
it before.

2635
01:43:05,759 --> 01:43:08,324
We don t know how
it would work.

2636
01:43:08,324 --> 01:43:10,739
So we're we're
kind of puzzled

2637
01:43:10,739 --> 01:43:13,469
about how we would do it.

2638
01:43:13,469 --> 01:43:14,804
Okay.

2639
01:43:14,804 --> 01:43:16,649
So but maybe something

2640
01:43:16,649 --> 01:43:19,529
you guys have legal
counsel look at,

2641
01:43:19,529 --> 01:43:21,120
but it just strikes

2642
01:43:21,120 --> 01:43:23,190
me that in some
ways you're free.

2643
01:43:23,190 --> 01:43:25,349
You're freer in
this situation

2644
01:43:25,349 --> 01:43:26,820
and you wouldn't
be under if it

2645
01:43:26,820 --> 01:43:28,650
was inside your
city boundaries

2646
01:43:28,650 --> 01:43:30,300
in that you just
sign a contract

2647
01:43:30,300 --> 01:43:31,619
with these folks and

2648
01:43:31,619 --> 01:43:33,059
you write the
contract anyway you

2649
01:43:33,059 --> 01:43:35,399
want and you tell
them they got to put

2650
01:43:35,399 --> 01:43:37,755
meters on or you tell
them whatever you want.

2651
01:43:37,755 --> 01:43:39,149
Here's the condition
of the sewage

2652
01:43:39,149 --> 01:43:41,324
coming into the
crossing that line.

2653
01:43:41,324 --> 01:43:44,760
You pay us $5,000
each is a hookup fee.

2654
01:43:44,760 --> 01:43:46,965
And that's we've
decided as fair.

2655
01:43:46,965 --> 01:43:48,150
If you don't like it,

2656
01:43:48,150 --> 01:43:49,830
build your own
treatment plan.

2657
01:43:49,830 --> 01:43:51,419
I mean, it seems
like you're

2658
01:43:51,419 --> 01:43:52,769
a very powerful position

2659
01:43:52,769 --> 01:43:53,925
rather than a week one.

2660
01:43:53,925 --> 01:43:54,975
But I don't know the law.

2661
01:43:54,975 --> 01:43:56,309
Maybe the law
does make you in

2662
01:43:56,309 --> 01:43:57,659
a weaker position
that I see,

2663
01:43:57,659 --> 01:43:59,369
but it seems like
you're going

2664
01:43:59,369 --> 01:44:02,010
to catbird seat law.

2665
01:44:02,010 --> 01:44:03,839
Well, we don't
have the ability

2666
01:44:03,839 --> 01:44:08,804
to insist that
people beyond

2667
01:44:08,804 --> 01:44:12,510
city limits pay us
for services received

2668
01:44:12,510 --> 01:44:14,610
unless there is a
signed agreement

2669
01:44:14,610 --> 01:44:16,740
or a contract, right?

2670
01:44:16,740 --> 01:44:18,030
Okay. I agree.

2671
01:44:18,030 --> 01:44:20,040
If we assume that
you live 3 mi

2672
01:44:20,040 --> 01:44:22,454
outside the urban
growth boundary with

2673
01:44:22,454 --> 01:44:25,680
six neighbors and
your septic tanks

2674
01:44:25,680 --> 01:44:27,209
are failing and
we are ordered

2675
01:44:27,209 --> 01:44:29,100
to extend out to you.

2676
01:44:29,100 --> 01:44:31,559
And we happen to have
a limited capacity

2677
01:44:31,559 --> 01:44:33,224
in our treatment plant.

2678
01:44:33,224 --> 01:44:34,770
The cost is going to be

2679
01:44:34,770 --> 01:44:36,690
enormous and
that's tough luck.

2680
01:44:36,690 --> 01:44:40,245
So what happens if
you don't sign?

2681
01:44:40,245 --> 01:44:42,960
They don't sign and they
don't get hooked up.

2682
01:44:42,960 --> 01:44:45,450
Unless you have the
problem that dq can

2683
01:44:45,450 --> 01:44:47,010
force you to take
their sewage

2684
01:44:47,010 --> 01:44:48,345
and I don't know
about that.

2685
01:44:48,345 --> 01:44:50,174
If they can force you,

2686
01:44:50,174 --> 01:44:51,570
then you've got
different situation.

2687
01:44:51,570 --> 01:44:52,469
And I understand it.

2688
01:44:52,469 --> 01:44:53,699
Well, we assume
that we will be

2689
01:44:53,699 --> 01:44:55,020
working with DQ as well,

2690
01:44:55,020 --> 01:44:55,949
particularly since they're

2691
01:44:55,949 --> 01:44:57,240
interested in
the definition

2692
01:44:57,240 --> 01:44:58,710
of adding the
definition of

2693
01:44:58,710 --> 01:45:00,525
environmental problems.

2694
01:45:00,525 --> 01:45:02,444
If you could be forced
to do something

2695
01:45:02,444 --> 01:45:03,389
and have no control over

2696
01:45:03,389 --> 01:45:04,409
the costs or anything.

2697
01:45:04,409 --> 01:45:08,414
I understand my responses.

2698
01:45:08,414 --> 01:45:11,880
Not that we've since
we're prohibited,

2699
01:45:11,880 --> 01:45:14,234
but that we don't have
the infrastructure.

2700
01:45:14,234 --> 01:45:16,889
We haven't ever created
that infrastructure.

2701
01:45:16,889 --> 01:45:18,839
It would be solely to

2702
01:45:18,839 --> 01:45:23,025
maintain rural
connected customers.

2703
01:45:23,025 --> 01:45:24,810
We don't know what
the cost would be.

2704
01:45:24,810 --> 01:45:26,069
We don't know
what the staffing

2705
01:45:26,069 --> 01:45:29,055
and negotiate.

2706
01:45:29,055 --> 01:45:29,819
You just sit down and say,

2707
01:45:29,819 --> 01:45:30,404
hey, it's going to take,

2708
01:45:30,404 --> 01:45:31,845
I got to hire
ten more people.

2709
01:45:31,845 --> 01:45:32,999
And they say, no,
you don't need

2710
01:45:32,999 --> 01:45:34,515
to hire ten, you
only need five.

2711
01:45:34,515 --> 01:45:36,719
You say, well, I say

2712
01:45:36,719 --> 01:45:38,895
ten if you don't like
it, go someplace else.

2713
01:45:38,895 --> 01:45:40,530
I mean, that's why
I said it seems

2714
01:45:40,530 --> 01:45:42,389
like you're in a very
powerful position

2715
01:45:42,389 --> 01:45:44,669
instead of a week
one and I just

2716
01:45:44,669 --> 01:45:48,129
would re-examine it
than maybe I'm wrong.

2717
01:45:48,920 --> 01:45:51,209
What burns going
to tell position

2718
01:45:51,209 --> 01:45:53,444
Randy's going to say,

2719
01:45:53,444 --> 01:45:56,910
Randy, doctrines, we
need new school too,

2720
01:45:56,910 --> 01:45:59,864
by the way, libraries.

2721
01:45:59,864 --> 01:46:01,859
I'm curious about
the notion that they

2722
01:46:01,859 --> 01:46:03,330
can force you to be

2723
01:46:03,330 --> 01:46:06,689
the solution. Apparently
that's the case.

2724
01:46:06,689 --> 01:46:09,240
Then what happens
where that's happened?

2725
01:46:09,240 --> 01:46:11,340
Oh, wait, they can't
force you to do it.

2726
01:46:11,340 --> 01:46:13,259
Uh, you're checking
your hand.

2727
01:46:13,259 --> 01:46:15,340
No, they can't force them.

2728
01:46:16,910 --> 01:46:19,770
But within the uji
being and I think

2729
01:46:19,770 --> 01:46:22,410
most would need to be
outside city limits.

2730
01:46:22,410 --> 01:46:24,659
You'd be you'd
be in the box.

2731
01:46:24,659 --> 01:46:29,339
We are concerned how
who is produced.

2732
01:46:29,339 --> 01:46:32,430
Feasibility analysis.

2733
01:46:32,430 --> 01:46:34,019
You do it.

2734
01:46:34,019 --> 01:46:37,919
I guess that's the kind
of language we would

2735
01:46:37,919 --> 01:46:42,129
like having built-in
to the rule mechanism.

2736
01:46:43,610 --> 01:46:47,620
The local governments
can understand that.

2737
01:46:52,190 --> 01:46:54,884
I have a question
here that

2738
01:46:54,884 --> 01:46:56,279
you keep talking about

2739
01:46:56,279 --> 01:46:57,599
outside the urban
growth boundary,

2740
01:46:57,599 --> 01:46:59,115
but I think cities
have a wide

2741
01:46:59,115 --> 01:47:00,720
ranging thing of
how they handle

2742
01:47:00,720 --> 01:47:02,610
the area between
the city limits

2743
01:47:02,610 --> 01:47:04,260
and the urban
growth boundary.

2744
01:47:04,260 --> 01:47:06,450
Is that any
problem or not?

2745
01:47:06,450 --> 01:47:07,740
I think maybe
in relation to

2746
01:47:07,740 --> 01:47:08,850
what we're doing
here because

2747
01:47:08,850 --> 01:47:10,545
we're talking
about out there

2748
01:47:10,545 --> 01:47:12,150
from a land-use
standpoint.

2749
01:47:12,150 --> 01:47:13,545
I don't see any
problem, but

2750
01:47:13,545 --> 01:47:14,940
standpoint and getting

2751
01:47:14,940 --> 01:47:16,440
people to eventually
come into

2752
01:47:16,440 --> 01:47:18,645
the city has a
great bearing.

2753
01:47:18,645 --> 01:47:21,629
And I'm hearing
more reports where

2754
01:47:21,629 --> 01:47:28,379
this annexation law as
applying that they're

2755
01:47:28,379 --> 01:47:30,809
considering
different ways that

2756
01:47:30,809 --> 01:47:33,330
they can maybe sewer
part of the area

2757
01:47:33,330 --> 01:47:34,620
within the urban
growth boundary

2758
01:47:34,620 --> 01:47:36,059
and not have them at

2759
01:47:36,059 --> 01:47:39,179
least close enough
to annex Mr.

2760
01:47:39,179 --> 01:47:40,679
Chair Commissioner
Macpherson, I

2761
01:47:40,679 --> 01:47:42,180
would say that generally

2762
01:47:42,180 --> 01:47:43,519
across the state that

2763
01:47:43,519 --> 01:47:46,290
that action
activity within

2764
01:47:46,290 --> 01:47:48,450
the urban growth
boundary depends almost

2765
01:47:48,450 --> 01:47:50,009
entirely on the
relationship

2766
01:47:50,009 --> 01:47:52,245
between the city
and county.

2767
01:47:52,245 --> 01:47:54,360
They sign agreements that

2768
01:47:54,360 --> 01:47:56,925
determine how that
area will be managed.

2769
01:47:56,925 --> 01:47:59,860
Most of those work well,

2770
01:48:03,290 --> 01:48:07,080
confirmed that
it changes a lot

2771
01:48:07,080 --> 01:48:08,879
between one
jurisdiction to

2772
01:48:08,879 --> 01:48:11,499
another, which is
what I thought.

2773
01:48:12,440 --> 01:48:14,505
Questions.

2774
01:48:14,505 --> 01:48:16,514
Thanks.

2775
01:48:16,514 --> 01:48:19,350
That is the last

2776
01:48:19,350 --> 01:48:20,520
of the witnesses
that signed up.

2777
01:48:20,520 --> 01:48:22,769
So I'll close the
public hearing

2778
01:48:22,769 --> 01:48:26,489
and we discuss.

2779
01:48:26,489 --> 01:48:27,570
What we've heard are

2780
01:48:27,570 --> 01:48:29,800
other questions
we might have.

2781
01:48:36,530 --> 01:48:40,479
My question is, why
isn't Burton we stared.

2782
01:48:41,300 --> 01:48:43,709
I don't know if he
had another hearing,

2783
01:48:43,709 --> 01:48:47,129
but he heats the person

2784
01:48:47,129 --> 01:48:48,569
we all have
talked to about.

2785
01:48:48,569 --> 01:48:50,939
Burton has participated in

2786
01:48:50,939 --> 01:48:53,370
our workgroup and did

2787
01:48:53,370 --> 01:48:56,775
attend one of our
goal hearings

2788
01:48:56,775 --> 01:48:59,099
and provided
testimony there.

2789
01:48:59,099 --> 01:49:01,485
My understanding
is that he

2790
01:49:01,485 --> 01:49:05,759
has been working on a
some written testimony.

2791
01:49:05,759 --> 01:49:07,830
I'm raising some of

2792
01:49:07,830 --> 01:49:09,285
the issues we've
talked about already

2793
01:49:09,285 --> 01:49:15,719
regarding defining
hazards and

2794
01:49:15,719 --> 01:49:18,840
the issue of how do

2795
01:49:18,840 --> 01:49:20,370
you would you harm

2796
01:49:20,370 --> 01:49:21,929
agriculture or whatever
the language is.

2797
01:49:21,929 --> 01:49:22,859
I'm sorry, I didn't see

2798
01:49:22,859 --> 01:49:24,315
like familiar reads now.

2799
01:49:24,315 --> 01:49:25,215
They pardon.

2800
01:49:25,215 --> 01:49:26,490
Likes the way
the rule reads.

2801
01:49:26,490 --> 01:49:28,929
Now, burden is

2802
01:49:41,110 --> 01:49:44,330
we can't alter things
said We can't give

2803
01:49:44,330 --> 01:49:45,710
our impression of
what we ought to

2804
01:49:45,710 --> 01:49:47,149
do in relation
to what he says.

2805
01:49:47,149 --> 01:49:50,735
And that is critical.
As I was saying.

2806
01:49:50,735 --> 01:49:52,715
I think I know what
his issues are,

2807
01:49:52,715 --> 01:49:53,569
but we don't have

2808
01:49:53,569 --> 01:49:54,889
anything in
writing from him.

2809
01:49:54,889 --> 01:49:57,184
Yeah. He's also conducting

2810
01:49:57,184 --> 01:49:58,970
undertaking the survey of

2811
01:49:58,970 --> 01:50:00,140
these 31 districts in

2812
01:50:00,140 --> 01:50:01,490
the state and to
try to get a sense

2813
01:50:01,490 --> 01:50:02,720
about how much land

2814
01:50:02,720 --> 01:50:04,400
is outside or
both boundaries.

2815
01:50:04,400 --> 01:50:06,650
And he's given us, we
have some of that.

2816
01:50:06,650 --> 01:50:08,120
We can have about half

2817
01:50:08,120 --> 01:50:10,469
of those reporting
back so far.

2818
01:50:11,200 --> 01:50:14,299
Just flipping through
the testimony that

2819
01:50:14,299 --> 01:50:16,310
was you said that

2820
01:50:16,310 --> 01:50:17,584
you didn't have a
chance to read.

2821
01:50:17,584 --> 01:50:19,209
I see one in here.

2822
01:50:19,209 --> 01:50:20,190
How many there are

2823
01:50:20,190 --> 01:50:21,855
others that
aren't there are?

2824
01:50:21,855 --> 01:50:25,019
They're asking us to
amend other things.

2825
01:50:25,019 --> 01:50:29,280
Since you're in
division three,

2826
01:50:29,280 --> 01:50:31,604
whatever it is
the division for,

2827
01:50:31,604 --> 01:50:33,960
why don't you hire

2828
01:50:33,960 --> 01:50:36,029
a bunch of that that
you're going to look

2829
01:50:36,029 --> 01:50:38,279
at are except
for what you're

2830
01:50:38,279 --> 01:50:39,510
seeing there
that we haven't

2831
01:50:39,510 --> 01:50:40,949
been generally
having people say,

2832
01:50:40,949 --> 01:50:42,750
Why don't you do
some other things.

2833
01:50:42,750 --> 01:50:43,920
That hasn't been the tenor

2834
01:50:43,920 --> 01:50:45,045
that I've heard it again,

2835
01:50:45,045 --> 01:50:49,139
I didn't attend most
of the goal hearings.

2836
01:50:49,139 --> 01:50:51,569
We hired John Kelly

2837
01:50:51,569 --> 01:50:52,920
to be the hearings officer

2838
01:50:52,920 --> 01:50:54,090
and he's he's reported

2839
01:50:54,090 --> 01:50:55,799
back some by giving me

2840
01:50:55,799 --> 01:50:57,810
these letters and we'll

2841
01:50:57,810 --> 01:50:58,830
be working on a
report to you.

2842
01:50:58,830 --> 01:50:59,985
But I don't have
all the data.

2843
01:50:59,985 --> 01:51:02,100
I don't know all of
what people said in

2844
01:51:02,100 --> 01:51:05,054
those hearings that
the two that I was at,

2845
01:51:05,054 --> 01:51:07,530
we only had a couple
of people and

2846
01:51:07,530 --> 01:51:08,700
generally there
was support

2847
01:51:08,700 --> 01:51:10,660
for what we're doing.

2848
01:51:10,790 --> 01:51:13,739
What's your reaction
to the DQ addition

2849
01:51:13,739 --> 01:51:16,485
of environmental
beyond public health?

2850
01:51:16,485 --> 01:51:18,930
I'm very concerned
as to how we

2851
01:51:18,930 --> 01:51:20,699
define a health hazard

2852
01:51:20,699 --> 01:51:21,360
or health problem,

2853
01:51:21,360 --> 01:51:22,335
whatever we're
going to define,

2854
01:51:22,335 --> 01:51:26,160
I think it should
be something very

2855
01:51:26,160 --> 01:51:28,455
serious and there's
objective criteria

2856
01:51:28,455 --> 01:51:31,779
that determine that.

2857
01:51:31,790 --> 01:51:34,649
I'm sympathetic to the
notion that there's,

2858
01:51:34,649 --> 01:51:37,980
there's times when there

2859
01:51:37,980 --> 01:51:38,129
are

2860
01:51:38,129 --> 01:51:40,019
serious environmental
problems that aren't,

2861
01:51:40,019 --> 01:51:41,729
don't fall to the notion

2862
01:51:41,729 --> 01:51:42,809
of human health hazard,

2863
01:51:42,809 --> 01:51:46,454
but they might kill
all the salmon.

2864
01:51:46,454 --> 01:51:47,729
I mean, I don't
think we can

2865
01:51:47,729 --> 01:51:49,889
avoid looking at
those questions.

2866
01:51:49,889 --> 01:51:51,779
And if sewer is going to

2867
01:51:51,779 --> 01:51:54,584
be part of the solution
to the salmon plan,

2868
01:51:54,584 --> 01:51:55,619
I think we have to be

2869
01:51:55,619 --> 01:51:57,135
prepared to
deal with that.

2870
01:51:57,135 --> 01:52:00,300
Um, but I I

2871
01:52:00,300 --> 01:52:01,720
don't know how to how

2872
01:52:01,720 --> 01:52:03,825
to narrow that
definition yet.

2873
01:52:03,825 --> 01:52:05,279
I'm certain to work
group is going

2874
01:52:05,279 --> 01:52:06,390
to work on that.

2875
01:52:06,390 --> 01:52:07,650
Yeah, that would
as I said before,

2876
01:52:07,650 --> 01:52:08,759
that would be
my interest if

2877
01:52:08,759 --> 01:52:09,809
we go that route,

2878
01:52:09,809 --> 01:52:11,835
adding Environmental

2879
01:52:11,835 --> 01:52:14,999
to public health
and safety,

2880
01:52:14,999 --> 01:52:16,709
unsure wants you to put

2881
01:52:16,709 --> 01:52:17,850
some sideburns on that

2882
01:52:17,850 --> 01:52:18,869
to give some direction as

2883
01:52:18,869 --> 01:52:20,040
to when it's
proper and Lynch

2884
01:52:20,040 --> 01:52:24,480
not just who is going to

2885
01:52:24,480 --> 01:52:27,570
pay and how many
people would not

2886
01:52:27,570 --> 01:52:28,589
think that this would be

2887
01:52:28,589 --> 01:52:31,544
a very densely
populated area.

2888
01:52:31,544 --> 01:52:34,380
And so the cost would
just be absolutely

2889
01:52:34,380 --> 01:52:39,280
prohibitive if you
were just talking.

2890
01:52:39,890 --> 01:52:42,150
Well, for a lot of
them, it's a lot

2891
01:52:42,150 --> 01:52:43,800
cheaper than building
a treatment plan.

2892
01:52:43,800 --> 01:52:47,159
If there's like 20
houses or 50 houses,

2893
01:52:47,159 --> 01:52:48,240
it's a lot cheaper to run

2894
01:52:48,240 --> 01:52:49,814
a six-inch sewer line

2895
01:52:49,814 --> 01:52:52,500
10 mi than it is to build

2896
01:52:52,500 --> 01:52:56,024
a treatment plan?
Lot cheaper. Yeah.

2897
01:52:56,024 --> 01:52:58,064
The other part
of this issue

2898
01:52:58,064 --> 01:53:01,229
is simply the definition
of sewer system.

2899
01:53:01,229 --> 01:53:03,120
I mean, there
are many cases

2900
01:53:03,120 --> 01:53:04,275
where you might have

2901
01:53:04,275 --> 01:53:08,100
a shared drain
field septic system

2902
01:53:08,100 --> 01:53:10,109
for lots and that

2903
01:53:10,109 --> 01:53:12,960
might be very
inexpensive solution.

2904
01:53:12,960 --> 01:53:15,584
What point is that?
A sewer system?

2905
01:53:15,584 --> 01:53:18,014
Well, we've at this point,

2906
01:53:18,014 --> 01:53:19,409
I think I understand

2907
01:53:19,409 --> 01:53:21,269
EQ to be
recommending that.

2908
01:53:21,269 --> 01:53:25,770
It's that definition
is two or more homes

2909
01:53:25,770 --> 01:53:29,040
up to the same Greenfield

2910
01:53:29,040 --> 01:53:31,030
would be a sewer system.

2911
01:53:31,100 --> 01:53:34,499
So just to remind
you that e.g.

2912
01:53:34,499 --> 01:53:35,909
in the environmental
hazard,

2913
01:53:35,909 --> 01:53:38,924
maybe we have I'm thinking
of Clear Lake e.g.

2914
01:53:38,924 --> 01:53:40,694
down in Lane County.

2915
01:53:40,694 --> 01:53:42,569
And there's been an
awful lot of litigation

2916
01:53:42,569 --> 01:53:45,489
they're involving.

2917
01:53:45,860 --> 01:53:48,480
Know that it's a healthy
I don't think it

2918
01:53:48,480 --> 01:53:50,160
is rises to the point
of the health hazard.

2919
01:53:50,160 --> 01:53:52,949
And Mike, that's an
example of if all of

2920
01:53:52,949 --> 01:53:54,480
the development
currently in

2921
01:53:54,480 --> 01:53:57,224
that very small
basin was Seward,

2922
01:53:57,224 --> 01:53:58,980
that lake would remain

2923
01:53:58,980 --> 01:54:02,230
clear lake it's going
to become cloudy link.

2924
01:54:03,950 --> 01:54:07,020
Night. When we talk
about a sewer system,

2925
01:54:07,020 --> 01:54:11,250
it might be three or
four rings or something.

2926
01:54:11,250 --> 01:54:12,990
I mean, it might not
generally talking

2927
01:54:12,990 --> 01:54:15,509
about a treatment plan and

2928
01:54:15,509 --> 01:54:19,409
certainly very
very quickly

2929
01:54:19,409 --> 01:54:20,999
get out of my area
of expertise.

2930
01:54:20,999 --> 01:54:22,799
I haven't dealt
with these things.

2931
01:54:22,799 --> 01:54:26,460
And so what we're

2932
01:54:26,460 --> 01:54:27,780
dealing with when we
talk about trying

2933
01:54:27,780 --> 01:54:29,250
to solve an
environmental hazard.

2934
01:54:29,250 --> 01:54:30,359
It's certainly
not something

2935
01:54:30,359 --> 01:54:32,145
that discussion
in the work.

2936
01:54:32,145 --> 01:54:32,969
It is.

2937
01:54:32,969 --> 01:54:33,839
There have been
a little bit

2938
01:54:33,839 --> 01:54:35,054
of reference to it.

2939
01:54:35,054 --> 01:54:38,820
There's no data that
we've collected about.

2940
01:54:38,820 --> 01:54:40,619
What is environmental
hazard?

2941
01:54:40,619 --> 01:54:41,940
How many of
them are there?

2942
01:54:41,940 --> 01:54:43,259
How big are they, and

2943
01:54:43,259 --> 01:54:45,225
what might we be opening?

2944
01:54:45,225 --> 01:54:46,259
So I think we're going

2945
01:54:46,259 --> 01:54:47,700
to proceed very
cautiously.

2946
01:54:47,700 --> 01:54:49,200
If we can get to
some agreement

2947
01:54:49,200 --> 01:54:50,939
about some definition,

2948
01:54:50,939 --> 01:54:54,255
will present that to you
at your May hearing.

2949
01:54:54,255 --> 01:54:56,099
We may we may give you

2950
01:54:56,099 --> 01:54:57,944
an option on
that maybe that

2951
01:54:57,944 --> 01:54:59,910
whereby these rules only

2952
01:54:59,910 --> 01:55:01,079
authorized for
health hazard

2953
01:55:01,079 --> 01:55:03,370
and we leave that one off.

2954
01:55:04,850 --> 01:55:07,439
We have health hazards for

2955
01:55:07,439 --> 01:55:09,330
single-family or
maybe two or three,

2956
01:55:09,330 --> 01:55:11,879
and then a small area
that can be declared

2957
01:55:11,879 --> 01:55:13,199
a health hazard as opposed

2958
01:55:13,199 --> 01:55:14,639
to what I think
a health hazard,

2959
01:55:14,639 --> 01:55:19,349
I think a large subdivision
type situation.

2960
01:55:19,349 --> 01:55:25,799
And I don't
know generally,

2961
01:55:25,799 --> 01:55:26,489
I think but that is

2962
01:55:26,489 --> 01:55:27,869
a formal process
that health

2963
01:55:27,869 --> 01:55:29,459
hazard and then we've

2964
01:55:29,459 --> 01:55:30,480
got something
to tie it to.

2965
01:55:30,480 --> 01:55:31,889
One way we save that.

2966
01:55:31,889 --> 01:55:35,100
I think of all of rural
septic tanks that are

2967
01:55:35,100 --> 01:55:36,569
not working well and then

2968
01:55:36,569 --> 01:55:38,250
there are ways to
take care of that.

2969
01:55:38,250 --> 01:55:38,640
In fact,

2970
01:55:38,640 --> 01:55:40,769
the small diameter
pressure sewer line

2971
01:55:40,769 --> 01:55:41,880
is not that expensive to

2972
01:55:41,880 --> 01:55:43,019
run for quite a distance.

2973
01:55:43,019 --> 01:55:46,740
So it is an option
if that thinking,

2974
01:55:46,740 --> 01:55:48,434
doing things like
that or not,

2975
01:55:48,434 --> 01:55:51,010
or permitting
that possibly.

2976
01:55:51,140 --> 01:55:54,240
Share blocks are
commissioner Macpherson

2977
01:55:54,240 --> 01:55:55,559
this Denesoline worth

2978
01:55:55,559 --> 01:55:56,609
department
incremental quality.

2979
01:55:56,609 --> 01:56:00,404
Your question regarding
public health hazard.

2980
01:56:00,404 --> 01:56:02,430
We take it a step
further and look

2981
01:56:02,430 --> 01:56:04,289
at it as a public
health hazard,

2982
01:56:04,289 --> 01:56:06,164
which means it's an area

2983
01:56:06,164 --> 01:56:09,450
I'm area wide
type situation,

2984
01:56:09,450 --> 01:56:12,465
community, neighborhood,
something like that.

2985
01:56:12,465 --> 01:56:16,154
Somebody was to have
a failing system.

2986
01:56:16,154 --> 01:56:18,884
We look at it as

2987
01:56:18,884 --> 01:56:23,249
an potential health
hazard if it's in

2988
01:56:23,249 --> 01:56:26,430
combination with others
or if it's happens to

2989
01:56:26,430 --> 01:56:28,424
be running down
the street,

2990
01:56:28,424 --> 01:56:29,700
something like that.

2991
01:56:29,700 --> 01:56:31,289
I mean, those things
do happen but then we

2992
01:56:31,289 --> 01:56:33,480
look at fixing
that onsite.

2993
01:56:33,480 --> 01:56:37,050
It's not something
that we even consider

2994
01:56:37,050 --> 01:56:39,600
sewer Ford's wondered if

2995
01:56:39,600 --> 01:56:40,889
you had any size thing.

2996
01:56:40,889 --> 01:56:43,155
In other words, if three
people in an area,

2997
01:56:43,155 --> 01:56:46,274
would you think about
that are proposed,

2998
01:56:46,274 --> 01:56:48,105
maybe a sand filter or
something like that,

2999
01:56:48,105 --> 01:56:49,364
which you could
do on site,

3000
01:56:49,364 --> 01:56:52,500
on the sweater is
there are ways of

3001
01:56:52,500 --> 01:56:54,150
fixing most
everything now by

3002
01:56:54,150 --> 01:56:57,220
a septic tank if you
just spend enough money.

3003
01:56:57,680 --> 01:57:00,960
Well, we've all we've

3004
01:57:00,960 --> 01:57:03,210
all heard from
we've all heard

3005
01:57:03,210 --> 01:57:04,440
snake oil salesmen in

3006
01:57:04,440 --> 01:57:06,029
the past that talk about

3007
01:57:06,029 --> 01:57:07,604
the eyeballs of newts and

3008
01:57:07,604 --> 01:57:10,305
black boxes for sewage
disposal systems.

3009
01:57:10,305 --> 01:57:12,149
Whether they're
really effective

3010
01:57:12,149 --> 01:57:14,339
and how long they
really work.

3011
01:57:14,339 --> 01:57:16,949
And whether they alert
word for long-term,

3012
01:57:16,949 --> 01:57:19,080
whether they work
without a great deal of

3013
01:57:19,080 --> 01:57:22,979
maintenance is another
is another issue.

3014
01:57:22,979 --> 01:57:25,949
We are not interested in

3015
01:57:25,949 --> 01:57:28,200
allowing any technology to

3016
01:57:28,200 --> 01:57:30,119
be placed on that site.

3017
01:57:30,119 --> 01:57:33,990
If the person wants to
spend $100,000 or not,

3018
01:57:33,990 --> 01:57:35,909
if he's not going
to take care of it.

3019
01:57:35,909 --> 01:57:37,890
If there's not an
ongoing operation and

3020
01:57:37,890 --> 01:57:39,029
maintenance program for

3021
01:57:39,029 --> 01:57:40,770
their that system can be

3022
01:57:40,770 --> 01:57:43,139
an environmental
problem after

3023
01:57:43,139 --> 01:57:46,605
day two or a public
health concern.

3024
01:57:46,605 --> 01:57:52,199
So there are
technological fixes.

3025
01:57:52,199 --> 01:57:56,550
But there's also the
practical side of that,

3026
01:57:56,550 --> 01:57:59,174
where that line is.

3027
01:57:59,174 --> 01:58:01,650
But basically we're
not trying to solve

3028
01:58:01,650 --> 01:58:03,239
those particular
problems with what

3029
01:58:03,239 --> 01:58:05,219
we have before
us here now.

3030
01:58:05,219 --> 01:58:08,370
And we're we're we're

3031
01:58:08,370 --> 01:58:09,989
doing onsite
sewage disposal

3032
01:58:09,989 --> 01:58:11,129
with sand filters.

3033
01:58:11,129 --> 01:58:16,600
We have sand filters,
pressurized systems.

3034
01:58:17,840 --> 01:58:21,360
In some places, the
state environmental or

3035
01:58:21,360 --> 01:58:24,795
a buyer transformation
systems.

3036
01:58:24,795 --> 01:58:26,460
We have a variety of

3037
01:58:26,460 --> 01:58:29,324
different methods of
doing onsite system.

3038
01:58:29,324 --> 01:58:31,874
But like anything else,

3039
01:58:31,874 --> 01:58:36,729
on-site will not solve
all the problems.

3040
01:58:38,570 --> 01:58:41,580
Bob, on the same point.

3041
01:58:41,580 --> 01:58:43,679
I'm sitting here
thinking that

3042
01:58:43,679 --> 01:58:45,239
we're looking at this from

3043
01:58:45,239 --> 01:58:46,800
on-site is one end
of the spectrum

3044
01:58:46,800 --> 01:58:48,269
and sewer systems
on the other.

3045
01:58:48,269 --> 01:58:49,380
And I looked for
a definition,

3046
01:58:49,380 --> 01:58:50,760
the sewer system and I

3047
01:58:50,760 --> 01:58:51,450
see a definition of

3048
01:58:51,450 --> 01:58:52,439
water system and the goal,

3049
01:58:52,439 --> 01:58:53,610
but I don't find
a definition of

3050
01:58:53,610 --> 01:58:55,994
the rule or the goal
of sewer system.

3051
01:58:55,994 --> 01:58:58,679
Maybe I misread will
have a definition.

3052
01:58:58,679 --> 01:59:00,629
In fact, dq just recently

3053
01:59:00,629 --> 01:59:02,835
gave us some because,
well, that's my point.

3054
01:59:02,835 --> 01:59:04,109
We don't have
when we're using

3055
01:59:04,109 --> 01:59:06,719
the operative term sewer
systems throughout.

3056
01:59:06,719 --> 01:59:09,840
And I know in within
that continuum,

3057
01:59:09,840 --> 01:59:11,129
there are other types of

3058
01:59:11,129 --> 01:59:12,930
systems where

3059
01:59:12,930 --> 01:59:14,909
multiple dwellings
will hook up,

3060
01:59:14,909 --> 01:59:16,560
multiple single-family
detached will

3061
01:59:16,560 --> 01:59:18,209
hook up to a common error,

3062
01:59:18,209 --> 01:59:19,380
whether you call
it, whether it's

3063
01:59:19,380 --> 01:59:21,299
a giant sand filter
or something else.

3064
01:59:21,299 --> 01:59:23,789
Are those sewer
systems for

3065
01:59:23,789 --> 01:59:26,384
purposes of this
or is it just pi?

3066
01:59:26,384 --> 01:59:28,530
I mean, there are
situations where I have

3067
01:59:28,530 --> 01:59:30,839
20 units and we
want to cluster for

3068
01:59:30,839 --> 01:59:33,239
environmental reasons
on this to 100 acres.

3069
01:59:33,239 --> 01:59:35,220
It's got one unit
per five acres.

3070
01:59:35,220 --> 01:59:36,450
Rather than go
out and plug

3071
01:59:36,450 --> 01:59:38,280
one unit per five acres
and spread it out

3072
01:59:38,280 --> 01:59:39,990
throughout the 100 with

3073
01:59:39,990 --> 01:59:41,460
all kinds of negative
implications.

3074
01:59:41,460 --> 01:59:43,200
And five acres you're

3075
01:59:43,200 --> 01:59:44,789
saying or you're
you're dirt works,

3076
01:59:44,789 --> 01:59:48,945
you'll have individual
onsite systems,

3077
01:59:48,945 --> 01:59:50,580
but they want to cluster.

3078
01:59:50,580 --> 01:59:52,109
The density is
still the same,

3079
01:59:52,109 --> 01:59:53,070
it's still 20 units,

3080
01:59:53,070 --> 01:59:54,539
but they're going
to that in a

3081
01:59:54,539 --> 01:59:56,505
third or a quarter
of the area,

3082
01:59:56,505 --> 01:59:57,869
but they don't
have enough of

3083
01:59:57,869 --> 01:59:59,610
those individual quarter
acre lots and the

3084
01:59:59,610 --> 02:00:00,794
longer have acre lots

3085
02:00:00,794 --> 02:00:02,219
to do an on-site filter.

3086
02:00:02,219 --> 02:00:03,989
So they want to combine
into a big one.

3087
02:00:03,989 --> 02:00:06,900
Is that prohibited by
where we're going here?

3088
02:00:06,900 --> 02:00:07,950
Is that a sewer system

3089
02:00:07,950 --> 02:00:09,209
or is it something else?

3090
02:00:09,209 --> 02:00:10,815
Two things.

3091
02:00:10,815 --> 02:00:13,470
First, you're
describing something

3092
02:00:13,470 --> 02:00:14,249
that sounds an awful lot

3093
02:00:14,249 --> 02:00:15,614
like Marion County case

3094
02:00:15,614 --> 02:00:17,445
that happened
sometime back where

3095
02:00:17,445 --> 02:00:18,990
that cluster was declared

3096
02:00:18,990 --> 02:00:21,284
to be in violation
of the 14.

3097
02:00:21,284 --> 02:00:24,600
As it begins to look
like an urban use.

3098
02:00:24,600 --> 02:00:27,659
And in fact, the PUD
clustering provisions of

3099
02:00:27,659 --> 02:00:28,860
curry County where the

3100
02:00:28,860 --> 02:00:31,054
subject of them
famous County case.

3101
02:00:31,054 --> 02:00:33,650
So I think we

3102
02:00:33,650 --> 02:00:34,760
don't necessarily want to

3103
02:00:34,760 --> 02:00:36,694
encourage that clustering
and rural areas.

3104
02:00:36,694 --> 02:00:38,780
At least court
seemed to think

3105
02:00:38,780 --> 02:00:40,985
that in many cases,

3106
02:00:40,985 --> 02:00:42,859
zoning that
encourage that,

3107
02:00:42,859 --> 02:00:43,879
but certainly closer to

3108
02:00:43,879 --> 02:00:45,455
a rural level, forget
to the turbine.

3109
02:00:45,455 --> 02:00:46,130
They're clustering,

3110
02:00:46,130 --> 02:00:47,405
do an acre and a half lot.

3111
02:00:47,405 --> 02:00:48,020
I'm sorry.

3112
02:00:48,020 --> 02:00:49,760
I'll get to your
answer, your question.

3113
02:00:49,760 --> 02:00:50,599
And that is that
we don't have

3114
02:00:50,599 --> 02:00:51,919
a definition yet
of a sewer system.

3115
02:00:51,919 --> 02:00:53,239
We could define those

3116
02:00:53,239 --> 02:00:54,875
as not being a
sewer system.

3117
02:00:54,875 --> 02:00:56,210
We've had to
make that call

3118
02:00:56,210 --> 02:00:57,170
already in a couple of

3119
02:00:57,170 --> 02:00:59,615
cases and shoots
County, e.g.

3120
02:00:59,615 --> 02:01:01,189
was asking similar
questions to us

3121
02:01:01,189 --> 02:01:02,974
while back I had to say,

3122
02:01:02,974 --> 02:01:04,250
we don't have
a definition.

3123
02:01:04,250 --> 02:01:05,674
We don't know. If you

3124
02:01:05,674 --> 02:01:07,699
connect ten lots to have
common drain field,

3125
02:01:07,699 --> 02:01:10,145
whether that's a sewer
system and we will,

3126
02:01:10,145 --> 02:01:12,959
we will be giving
you a definition

3127
02:01:13,090 --> 02:01:14,719
when we send out

3128
02:01:14,719 --> 02:01:15,770
the next graph
with these rules.

3129
02:01:15,770 --> 02:01:17,614
Okay, That's all
I need is point.

3130
02:01:17,614 --> 02:01:19,489
I think where
we're heading

3131
02:01:19,489 --> 02:01:21,289
is that the example

3132
02:01:21,289 --> 02:01:24,754
you described would be
a sewer system? Yeah.

3133
02:01:24,754 --> 02:01:26,750
We'll have some
discussion about well,

3134
02:01:26,750 --> 02:01:27,290
I don't want to talk

3135
02:01:27,290 --> 02:01:27,980
about them
because there are

3136
02:01:27,980 --> 02:01:29,389
plenty of instances where

3137
02:01:29,389 --> 02:01:30,814
set aside urban
versus rural

3138
02:01:30,814 --> 02:01:32,540
because that line is
still somewhat vague.

3139
02:01:32,540 --> 02:01:33,859
There are plenty
of instances

3140
02:01:33,859 --> 02:01:34,879
where if you compete with

3141
02:01:34,879 --> 02:01:36,109
natural resource values

3142
02:01:36,109 --> 02:01:37,130
are other implications.

3143
02:01:37,130 --> 02:01:38,810
Clustering may
very well be in

3144
02:01:38,810 --> 02:01:40,400
a rural setting where

3145
02:01:40,400 --> 02:01:41,810
it's one unit per
five or one unit

3146
02:01:41,810 --> 02:01:43,384
per two-and-a-half
on the base zone

3147
02:01:43,384 --> 02:01:44,989
may make more sense from

3148
02:01:44,989 --> 02:01:46,969
all perspectives only
to find we run a foul

3149
02:01:46,969 --> 02:01:49,069
of a goal 11
prohibition on it,

3150
02:01:49,069 --> 02:01:50,780
on a unique and
innovative system.

3151
02:01:50,780 --> 02:01:52,759
I don't see a dequeue
definition here.

3152
02:01:52,759 --> 02:01:54,470
I see for others on-site,

3153
02:01:54,470 --> 02:01:55,970
you're going to come
up with one though,

3154
02:01:55,970 --> 02:01:56,929
but I don't see
one in here.

3155
02:01:56,929 --> 02:01:59,070
He is. He's got one here.

3156
02:01:59,590 --> 02:02:02,039
There isn't one.

3157
02:02:02,140 --> 02:02:05,450
But I would I would I
think you've got to be

3158
02:02:05,450 --> 02:02:07,250
careful because I trip

3159
02:02:07,250 --> 02:02:08,764
over these all the time.

3160
02:02:08,764 --> 02:02:10,370
For the engineers, there's

3161
02:02:10,370 --> 02:02:11,404
a difference between

3162
02:02:11,404 --> 02:02:14,765
sewers, sewage,
and sewerage.

3163
02:02:14,765 --> 02:02:16,339
You mix the two together.

3164
02:02:16,339 --> 02:02:17,810
Here you have we
need a definition of

3165
02:02:17,810 --> 02:02:19,039
sewer system and
then you go down

3166
02:02:19,039 --> 02:02:21,005
to sewage system.

3167
02:02:21,005 --> 02:02:23,299
And I'm sure de Fuca

3168
02:02:23,299 --> 02:02:24,620
helping you with
those words,

3169
02:02:24,620 --> 02:02:27,064
but I hope they
were all out.

3170
02:02:27,064 --> 02:02:29,285
We made I think next
week is that right?

3171
02:02:29,285 --> 02:02:30,949
The workgroup
and this will

3172
02:02:30,949 --> 02:02:32,839
be obviously
the discussion.

3173
02:02:32,839 --> 02:02:34,130
That's why I'm hesitant to

3174
02:02:34,130 --> 02:02:35,359
tell you what
we're even going

3175
02:02:35,359 --> 02:02:36,740
to recommend on
a definition

3176
02:02:36,740 --> 02:02:38,659
because the work
group has rejected

3177
02:02:38,659 --> 02:02:41,960
the proposal and reached
Commissioner Harris.

3178
02:02:41,960 --> 02:02:43,670
I wanted to make
two comments.

3179
02:02:43,670 --> 02:02:46,099
I would hope that
one drain field

3180
02:02:46,099 --> 02:02:47,510
with two or three
residents on it

3181
02:02:47,510 --> 02:02:49,190
wouldn't be considered
a sewer system

3182
02:02:49,190 --> 02:02:51,620
because many cases
in the farm zone,

3183
02:02:51,620 --> 02:02:54,200
we've had Greenfield
applications

3184
02:02:54,200 --> 02:02:56,540
where I'm not an
expert on it,

3185
02:02:56,540 --> 02:02:57,709
but I feel that there's

3186
02:02:57,709 --> 02:02:59,809
farmed dwellings
out there that have

3187
02:02:59,809 --> 02:03:01,489
an accessory dwelling
or a hardship

3188
02:03:01,489 --> 02:03:02,539
dwelling beside it that

3189
02:03:02,539 --> 02:03:03,844
is hooked to
the same dream.

3190
02:03:03,844 --> 02:03:06,529
Greenfield. Then also are

3191
02:03:06,529 --> 02:03:09,890
we in we've discussed
about it in the past,

3192
02:03:09,890 --> 02:03:12,290
looking at the standard of

3193
02:03:12,290 --> 02:03:16,279
how as a means to
limiting the amount

3194
02:03:16,279 --> 02:03:17,869
of non-pharm
homes we have in

3195
02:03:17,869 --> 02:03:20,029
the rural area based on

3196
02:03:20,029 --> 02:03:23,419
how many Greenfield's
a minimum lot size

3197
02:03:23,419 --> 02:03:24,950
for areas where
they can get

3198
02:03:24,950 --> 02:03:26,990
by on a drain field.

3199
02:03:26,990 --> 02:03:28,190
Then we had the case in

3200
02:03:28,190 --> 02:03:29,329
Jefferson County
where there was

3201
02:03:29,329 --> 02:03:30,739
a 45 acre place and they

3202
02:03:30,739 --> 02:03:32,809
asked for 33 home sites.

3203
02:03:32,809 --> 02:03:34,580
And I felt that

3204
02:03:34,580 --> 02:03:36,260
that many drain fields

3205
02:03:36,260 --> 02:03:37,429
on that particular parcel,

3206
02:03:37,429 --> 02:03:39,109
it was gonna be
too much too

3207
02:03:39,109 --> 02:03:41,105
many drain fields and
then certain area.

3208
02:03:41,105 --> 02:03:43,010
Are we going to try
to attempt to write

3209
02:03:43,010 --> 02:03:45,529
a standard for how
small a lot you

3210
02:03:45,529 --> 02:03:46,550
can have and still

3211
02:03:46,550 --> 02:03:50,795
have Greenfield's.
Scared already.

3212
02:03:50,795 --> 02:03:54,635
The carrying capacity
standard soil depth and

3213
02:03:54,635 --> 02:03:58,084
permeability and
elect Harris.

3214
02:03:58,084 --> 02:04:04,640
Dq only has minimum lot
size is in regards to

3215
02:04:04,640 --> 02:04:06,590
nitrate loadings
where there's

3216
02:04:06,590 --> 02:04:08,569
permanent groundwater

3217
02:04:08,569 --> 02:04:12,770
laying underneath
rapidly draining soils.

3218
02:04:12,770 --> 02:04:15,890
Other than that,
dQ has nothing to

3219
02:04:15,890 --> 02:04:19,414
do with minimum lot sizes.

3220
02:04:19,414 --> 02:04:23,779
If by applicants can show

3221
02:04:23,779 --> 02:04:25,310
that a sand filter and

3222
02:04:25,310 --> 02:04:28,685
a drain field can fit
on a quarter acre lot?

3223
02:04:28,685 --> 02:04:30,559
We would approve it under

3224
02:04:30,559 --> 02:04:34,730
existing rules in most

3225
02:04:34,730 --> 02:04:36,470
of Jefferson County and
we exclusively about

3226
02:04:36,470 --> 02:04:37,579
that Indian
Reservation and

3227
02:04:37,579 --> 02:04:38,674
some branches out east.

3228
02:04:38,674 --> 02:04:41,960
The whole county,
almost 30 mile 30,

3229
02:04:41,960 --> 02:04:44,570
45 mi from north
to south is all on

3230
02:04:44,570 --> 02:04:47,779
more than one opal
Springs water systems,

3231
02:04:47,779 --> 02:04:49,895
so very very little

3232
02:04:49,895 --> 02:04:52,529
underground water
is used anyway.

3233
02:04:53,200 --> 02:04:55,340
Commissioner
Harris, we had

3234
02:04:55,340 --> 02:04:58,535
hoped, raised early
on in the world.

3235
02:04:58,535 --> 02:05:01,189
I know there are
those that wish

3236
02:05:01,189 --> 02:05:04,970
that either dq or
some agency could,

3237
02:05:04,970 --> 02:05:06,110
could answer
the question of

3238
02:05:06,110 --> 02:05:07,160
carrying capacity.

3239
02:05:07,160 --> 02:05:08,570
And that in the case

3240
02:05:08,570 --> 02:05:10,310
of an area in
a county that

3241
02:05:10,310 --> 02:05:14,240
might accommodate 20
homes, but it's unclear.

3242
02:05:14,240 --> 02:05:16,804
In each individual,
a lot will

3243
02:05:16,804 --> 02:05:19,849
easily accommodate
an on-site system.

3244
02:05:19,849 --> 02:05:21,289
But there's concern that

3245
02:05:21,289 --> 02:05:22,699
the cumulative effect over

3246
02:05:22,699 --> 02:05:25,054
time will be a
health hazard.

3247
02:05:25,054 --> 02:05:27,724
There doesn't seem to be

3248
02:05:27,724 --> 02:05:30,754
agreement that the
science is there

3249
02:05:30,754 --> 02:05:33,874
or the methodologies to

3250
02:05:33,874 --> 02:05:36,139
determine that in a way
that it's acceptable.

3251
02:05:36,139 --> 02:05:38,524
And again, Dennis
will have to answer,

3252
02:05:38,524 --> 02:05:39,560
but a lot of our soils are

3253
02:05:39,560 --> 02:05:41,675
an impervious
sandstone or just a,

3254
02:05:41,675 --> 02:05:43,535
just a hard lab

3255
02:05:43,535 --> 02:05:46,219
sheet of lava that's
plenty inches down.

3256
02:05:46,219 --> 02:05:48,169
Drain fields really don't
work all that well.

3257
02:05:48,169 --> 02:05:50,329
I mean, you have
them all approved,

3258
02:05:50,329 --> 02:05:52,504
but one or two of them
there's something,

3259
02:05:52,504 --> 02:05:53,329
there's a little puddle

3260
02:05:53,329 --> 02:05:54,199
there that you can smell.

3261
02:05:54,199 --> 02:05:56,159
90% of the year.

3262
02:05:56,470 --> 02:05:58,505
I've been approved
probably.

3263
02:05:58,505 --> 02:06:00,060
Okay.

3264
02:06:00,280 --> 02:06:01,669
You haven't

3265
02:06:01,669 --> 02:06:03,169
nobody's discussed
lagoons and they're

3266
02:06:03,169 --> 02:06:04,490
kinda the in-between thing

3267
02:06:04,490 --> 02:06:05,270
for a lot of things,

3268
02:06:05,270 --> 02:06:11,150
but you all you got
to worry about, well,

3269
02:06:11,150 --> 02:06:12,740
all of that we
actually use

3270
02:06:12,740 --> 02:06:14,359
out there to get
rid of animal waste

3271
02:06:14,359 --> 02:06:18,589
of one kind are used

3272
02:06:18,589 --> 02:06:19,730
and I don t know
whether they make

3273
02:06:19,730 --> 02:06:21,050
it a sewer system or not.

3274
02:06:21,050 --> 02:06:23,450
That's a treatment system.

3275
02:06:23,450 --> 02:06:25,489
Mess like a
treatment plant.

3276
02:06:25,489 --> 02:06:29,000
Laguna is. The other one

3277
02:06:29,000 --> 02:06:34,530
is evaporator
filtration system.

3278
02:06:34,900 --> 02:06:37,520
I can't think of
the word for it,

3279
02:06:37,520 --> 02:06:39,260
but anywhere where you put

3280
02:06:39,260 --> 02:06:40,489
the water ought to be

3281
02:06:40,489 --> 02:06:41,900
treated on on land and let

3282
02:06:41,900 --> 02:06:45,119
the plants do
the gray area.

3283
02:06:45,370 --> 02:06:47,375
Irrigate?

3284
02:06:47,375 --> 02:06:51,920
No, no, no. No. I
was thinking of

3285
02:06:51,920 --> 02:06:53,839
where you purify
the water by

3286
02:06:53,839 --> 02:06:56,254
flowing up through a
marsh type of situation,

3287
02:06:56,254 --> 02:06:59,040
wetland struck a
wetland treatment.

3288
02:06:59,680 --> 02:07:02,030
But if you have
treatment, then

3289
02:07:02,030 --> 02:07:03,290
you've got a system.

3290
02:07:03,290 --> 02:07:06,079
You haven't got an
on-site necessarily.

3291
02:07:06,079 --> 02:07:07,369
Well, anyway, there's

3292
02:07:07,369 --> 02:07:09,205
some things that I've
been thinking about.

3293
02:07:09,205 --> 02:07:09,980
Sure.

3294
02:07:09,980 --> 02:07:13,700
Macpherson, the Lagoon by

3295
02:07:13,700 --> 02:07:15,320
itself is what
we consider to

3296
02:07:15,320 --> 02:07:17,825
be a sewage
treatment works.

3297
02:07:17,825 --> 02:07:19,520
It is not a sewage system

3298
02:07:19,520 --> 02:07:20,900
with a collection system.

3299
02:07:20,900 --> 02:07:29,375
To appreciate
your being here,

3300
02:07:29,375 --> 02:07:31,249
I got one last thing I
just want you to look

3301
02:07:31,249 --> 02:07:33,560
at as you look at
the language here,

3302
02:07:33,560 --> 02:07:36,470
local governments
shall not rely upon.

3303
02:07:36,470 --> 02:07:40,610
I just bothered by the
word rely in that I,

3304
02:07:40,610 --> 02:07:42,080
in my devious mind,

3305
02:07:42,080 --> 02:07:43,310
sees a way of

3306
02:07:43,310 --> 02:07:45,875
saying, well, gee,
we approve this.

3307
02:07:45,875 --> 02:07:48,239
We didn't rely on that.

3308
02:07:49,540 --> 02:07:52,474
We didn't even
talk about that.

3309
02:07:52,474 --> 02:07:53,960
We decided to
do it because

3310
02:07:53,960 --> 02:07:55,520
we just thought
was a good idea.

3311
02:07:55,520 --> 02:07:58,999
And so I'm wondering
whether I don't

3312
02:07:58,999 --> 02:08:00,559
know whether worried if

3313
02:08:00,559 --> 02:08:02,269
they can slip because
of the word rely,

3314
02:08:02,269 --> 02:08:03,710
whether that means
a way of slip

3315
02:08:03,710 --> 02:08:05,750
out of it applying.

3316
02:08:05,750 --> 02:08:08,639
I don't know. I just

3317
02:08:09,250 --> 02:08:11,465
think of that in
Chem and then

3318
02:08:11,465 --> 02:08:13,910
maybe there's another
way to word it will not

3319
02:08:13,910 --> 02:08:17,315
use the presence as
a basis to allow.

3320
02:08:17,315 --> 02:08:19,924
I don't know whether
that's even better.

3321
02:08:19,924 --> 02:08:22,399
Use the presence as

3322
02:08:22,399 --> 02:08:24,545
a basis to allow
that means,

3323
02:08:24,545 --> 02:08:26,194
then they couldn't
use it even as

3324
02:08:26,194 --> 02:08:28,235
one of ten reasons.

3325
02:08:28,235 --> 02:08:30,740
But the word rely would

3326
02:08:30,740 --> 02:08:32,239
be it seems to me it's

3327
02:08:32,239 --> 02:08:34,100
a tipping word that says,

3328
02:08:34,100 --> 02:08:35,690
I relied on this.

3329
02:08:35,690 --> 02:08:39,410
And they might have
had eight reasons.

3330
02:08:39,410 --> 02:08:42,800
This was one of them, but

3331
02:08:42,800 --> 02:08:44,689
they would claim that
didn't rely on it.

3332
02:08:44,689 --> 02:08:46,159
We can look for a word.

3333
02:08:46,159 --> 02:08:47,360
We note that situation

3334
02:08:47,360 --> 02:08:50,819
if there is an ordinance,

3335
02:08:51,460 --> 02:08:56,300
you can have x
Density, right?

3336
02:08:56,300 --> 02:08:59,434
Or water or both
are present.

3337
02:08:59,434 --> 02:09:02,420
The context of
the winner lie

3338
02:09:02,420 --> 02:09:05,009
and I'm sure there's
another word,

3339
02:09:05,680 --> 02:09:09,275
the determination,
the criteria.

3340
02:09:09,275 --> 02:09:11,329
I just raise it.

3341
02:09:11,329 --> 02:09:13,490
The other way to attain
to deal with this in

3342
02:09:13,490 --> 02:09:15,994
some similar questions
is I, as I think to,

3343
02:09:15,994 --> 02:09:19,039
to use the rule that we

3344
02:09:19,039 --> 02:09:22,504
opened, the rural rule.

3345
02:09:22,504 --> 02:09:24,319
And that rule.

3346
02:09:24,319 --> 02:09:26,675
Maybe stated another way

3347
02:09:26,675 --> 02:09:28,729
or more explicitly
that what we mean is

3348
02:09:28,729 --> 02:09:30,739
that if zoning
is present that

3349
02:09:30,739 --> 02:09:32,989
allows doable lot sizes,

3350
02:09:32,989 --> 02:09:35,120
that that cannot be
used in the case where

3351
02:09:35,120 --> 02:09:39,214
there's something that
we might propose.

3352
02:09:39,214 --> 02:09:41,344
Some ways,

3353
02:09:41,344 --> 02:09:43,490
take a longer time to

3354
02:09:43,490 --> 02:09:45,440
explain the whole
situation or to

3355
02:09:45,440 --> 02:09:47,480
provide the
rule as part of

3356
02:09:47,480 --> 02:09:53,309
that golden rule.
Alright, anymore?

3357
02:09:53,440 --> 02:09:55,819
The last thing I would
say is you might

3358
02:09:55,819 --> 02:09:57,380
want to try and to divide

3359
02:09:57,380 --> 02:10:01,939
the sewer issue
between well,

3360
02:10:01,939 --> 02:10:05,270
I'll call industrial
and residential.

3361
02:10:05,270 --> 02:10:06,559
There may be
some reason that

3362
02:10:06,559 --> 02:10:08,119
it makes sense for

3363
02:10:08,119 --> 02:10:12,395
the landfill situation.
As an example.

3364
02:10:12,395 --> 02:10:16,160
To separate that as an
issue wise or policy

3365
02:10:16,160 --> 02:10:19,744
wise from creating
little towns out there.

3366
02:10:19,744 --> 02:10:21,930
A lot of people living.

3367
02:10:28,870 --> 02:10:30,845
Okay.

3368
02:10:30,845 --> 02:10:36,064
Thank you. Okay. Now, we

3369
02:10:36,064 --> 02:10:38,870
need to go to
agenda item 11,

3370
02:10:38,870 --> 02:10:42,469
petition for

3371
02:10:42,469 --> 02:10:44,940
enforcement ordering
Josephine counts.

3372
02:10:47,680 --> 02:10:49,699
Almost coming back to

3373
02:10:49,699 --> 02:10:58,910
session. Okay.

3374
02:10:58,910 --> 02:11:01,069
Coming back to session,

3375
02:11:01,069 --> 02:11:05,149
we have the final
item of the day,

3376
02:11:05,149 --> 02:11:07,459
agenda item 11,
which is a petition

3377
02:11:07,459 --> 02:11:08,720
for enforcement
order against

3378
02:11:08,720 --> 02:11:10,769
Josephine counting.

3379
02:11:10,960 --> 02:11:13,280
This is a contested case,

3380
02:11:13,280 --> 02:11:14,809
and so our procedure

3381
02:11:14,809 --> 02:11:16,654
has to be slightly
different than

3382
02:11:16,654 --> 02:11:21,319
it would be under
normal circumstances.

3383
02:11:21,319 --> 02:11:23,749
So in order to before
we even start,

3384
02:11:23,749 --> 02:11:25,624
that'd be useful to have

3385
02:11:25,624 --> 02:11:30,289
our council tell us
all the commissioners,

3386
02:11:30,289 --> 02:11:33,530
what are one of

3387
02:11:33,530 --> 02:11:34,969
these things is
how it works

3388
02:11:34,969 --> 02:11:36,319
and what the
limitations are,

3389
02:11:36,319 --> 02:11:38,430
and what we can
ask them to.

3390
02:11:38,950 --> 02:11:40,250
Alright.

3391
02:11:40,250 --> 02:11:41,780
For the record, this
is Richard Whitman,

3392
02:11:41,780 --> 02:11:43,444
Oregon Department
of Justice.

3393
02:11:43,444 --> 02:11:46,819
This is a contested case

3394
02:11:46,819 --> 02:11:49,864
hearing on a petition

3395
02:11:49,864 --> 02:11:53,420
Foreign Enforcement
Order by Steve do.

3396
02:11:53,420 --> 02:11:55,760
The commission found

3397
02:11:55,760 --> 02:11:57,469
approximately a
year ago that there

3398
02:11:57,469 --> 02:12:01,685
was good cause
to proceed with

3399
02:12:01,685 --> 02:12:05,030
a contested case on an
enforcement order or

3400
02:12:05,030 --> 02:12:07,355
the enforcement the
hearing on that

3401
02:12:07,355 --> 02:12:10,370
has now been held before
a hearing officer,

3402
02:12:10,370 --> 02:12:11,899
mike Holstein, who's here

3403
02:12:11,899 --> 02:12:13,460
today and who's going to

3404
02:12:13,460 --> 02:12:15,439
summarize the
proposed order

3405
02:12:15,439 --> 02:12:17,779
in terms of procedure,

3406
02:12:17,779 --> 02:12:19,790
no new evidence or

3407
02:12:19,790 --> 02:12:23,615
testimony may be
introduced today.

3408
02:12:23,615 --> 02:12:27,589
The hearing before the
Commission is limited

3409
02:12:27,589 --> 02:12:28,759
to the parties who

3410
02:12:28,759 --> 02:12:31,475
participated before
the hearings officer,

3411
02:12:31,475 --> 02:12:34,265
and further limited
to argument

3412
02:12:34,265 --> 02:12:36,139
only on the record that

3413
02:12:36,139 --> 02:12:38,419
was created before
the hearings officer.

3414
02:12:38,419 --> 02:12:41,675
So that's basically
the procedure.

3415
02:12:41,675 --> 02:12:45,380
Staff and the hearing
officer has set

3416
02:12:45,380 --> 02:12:48,724
up a order of
procedure for today,

3417
02:12:48,724 --> 02:12:52,289
which I think is contained
in your materials.

3418
02:12:52,300 --> 02:12:58,969
Any questions? Okay.

3419
02:12:58,969 --> 02:12:59,915
Thank you.

3420
02:12:59,915 --> 02:13:02,060
Richard. I hope as
we go through this,

3421
02:13:02,060 --> 02:13:04,159
if you catch us making
any procedural errors,

3422
02:13:04,159 --> 02:13:05,629
you will stop us
immediately in

3423
02:13:05,629 --> 02:13:07,850
that, let us get
into trouble.

3424
02:13:07,850 --> 02:13:09,889
I'll take my shoe off.

3425
02:13:09,889 --> 02:13:13,249
Hand on the table, giving

3426
02:13:13,249 --> 02:13:15,270
you a license to do that.

3427
02:13:15,790 --> 02:13:20,869
The order of presentation

3428
02:13:20,869 --> 02:13:23,374
that I have before me,

3429
02:13:23,374 --> 02:13:25,624
it looks like it
just changed.

3430
02:13:25,624 --> 02:13:27,649
Anyway, the way we

3431
02:13:27,649 --> 02:13:29,719
had it listed was
Mel Lucas was

3432
02:13:29,719 --> 02:13:31,204
going to begin

3433
02:13:31,204 --> 02:13:34,190
with some
introductory remarks.

3434
02:13:34,190 --> 02:13:37,260
Mel, you don't want
to do that now.

3435
02:13:38,620 --> 02:13:41,990
He covered what you are
going to cover, okay.

3436
02:13:41,990 --> 02:13:47,300
Alright. Then
the next person

3437
02:13:47,300 --> 02:13:48,890
will hear from
Michael Halston,

3438
02:13:48,890 --> 02:13:50,509
who was the
hearings officer,

3439
02:13:50,509 --> 02:13:52,280
and he will have
he'll present

3440
02:13:52,280 --> 02:13:58,530
his proposed order and
they'll have 20 min.

3441
02:14:00,430 --> 02:14:02,374
Good afternoon.

3442
02:14:02,374 --> 02:14:03,755
My name is Michael,

3443
02:14:03,755 --> 02:14:08,460
a host. Your
hearings officer.

3444
02:14:09,040 --> 02:14:20,969
I ended up I
can do for you.

3445
02:14:33,910 --> 02:14:41,614
I'll refer going over
them point by looking,

3446
02:14:41,614 --> 02:14:43,160
scanning through them
live at this point,

3447
02:14:43,160 --> 02:14:44,719
I don't see that there's
anything there of

3448
02:14:44,719 --> 02:14:46,834
substance unless you
think there's one,

3449
02:14:46,834 --> 02:14:49,234
any of them that are
truly substantive,

3450
02:14:49,234 --> 02:14:50,479
know there's really
the only ones

3451
02:14:50,479 --> 02:14:53,105
that might very well.

3452
02:14:53,105 --> 02:14:55,879
Notice that the
initial review that

3453
02:14:55,879 --> 02:14:57,499
you might want
to adopt their

3454
02:14:57,499 --> 02:14:59,640
subject to your
counseling.

3455
02:15:00,520 --> 02:15:07,009
Okay. I thought what
I would do today,

3456
02:15:07,009 --> 02:15:08,419
unless you want to
proceed differently

3457
02:15:08,419 --> 02:15:09,950
as to essentially walk you

3458
02:15:09,950 --> 02:15:11,780
through the order
and give you

3459
02:15:11,780 --> 02:15:15,870
a brief summary of
what I've said.

3460
02:15:16,420 --> 02:15:19,774
Petitioner filed
exceptions.

3461
02:15:19,774 --> 02:15:22,579
The department is
called exceptions.

3462
02:15:22,579 --> 02:15:24,459
They will be presenting

3463
02:15:24,459 --> 02:15:26,614
arguments to you today
on those exceptions.

3464
02:15:26,614 --> 02:15:29,314
I'll be available to
respond to those.

3465
02:15:29,314 --> 02:15:30,154
You want to ask me

3466
02:15:30,154 --> 02:15:31,400
questions about
the exceptions.

3467
02:15:31,400 --> 02:15:32,390
Otherwise,

3468
02:15:32,390 --> 02:15:33,920
I'm not going to spend
a lot of time on

3469
02:15:33,920 --> 02:15:37,470
the exceptions as part
of my presentation.

3470
02:15:39,310 --> 02:15:42,095
If you'll go to the
proposed order,

3471
02:15:42,095 --> 02:15:43,879
i'm I'm not going to
spend any time of

3472
02:15:43,879 --> 02:15:47,390
the introductory
portion of the order.

3473
02:15:47,390 --> 02:15:51,245
I'll start on page for.

3474
02:15:51,245 --> 02:15:53,780
The order describes

3475
02:15:53,780 --> 02:15:55,460
the contents
of the record.

3476
02:15:55,460 --> 02:15:57,529
As your counsel,
that this is

3477
02:15:57,529 --> 02:15:59,960
a legal argument on

3478
02:15:59,960 --> 02:16:02,134
the acceptance and the
proposed order only.

3479
02:16:02,134 --> 02:16:03,649
This portion of the order

3480
02:16:03,649 --> 02:16:06,289
identifies the contents
of the record.

3481
02:16:06,289 --> 02:16:08,690
There's an appendix, a

3482
02:16:08,690 --> 02:16:10,280
proposed order that sets

3483
02:16:10,280 --> 02:16:11,539
out the constants of

3484
02:16:11,539 --> 02:16:15,180
the record in more detail.

3485
02:16:17,620 --> 02:16:20,419
The findings of fact.

3486
02:16:20,419 --> 02:16:22,729
I mean, I've asked melded,

3487
02:16:22,729 --> 02:16:24,380
we have put up one

3488
02:16:24,380 --> 02:16:26,569
of the items
that we match.

3489
02:16:26,569 --> 02:16:28,460
The urban risible area

3490
02:16:28,460 --> 02:16:29,540
that's at issue
in this case.

3491
02:16:29,540 --> 02:16:32,089
And the red dots that
you see at the bottom

3492
02:16:32,089 --> 02:16:33,379
of the map or the

3493
02:16:33,379 --> 02:16:35,669
developments that
are at issue.

3494
02:16:38,230 --> 02:16:41,940
Findings of back
again on page five.

3495
02:16:43,390 --> 02:16:45,949
There's no dispute
in this case about

3496
02:16:45,949 --> 02:16:47,929
what the relevant area is.

3497
02:16:47,929 --> 02:16:49,685
It's the urbanized
area that lie

3498
02:16:49,685 --> 02:16:52,459
outside the city limits,

3499
02:16:52,459 --> 02:16:55,440
but inside and the
urban growth boundary.

3500
02:16:56,290 --> 02:16:58,370
That area is described on

3501
02:16:58,370 --> 02:17:00,509
page five of the border.

3502
02:17:02,140 --> 02:17:05,359
Page five of the
order as well.

3503
02:17:05,359 --> 02:17:08,600
I've listed
four items from

3504
02:17:08,600 --> 02:17:10,009
the counties
acknowledged company

3505
02:17:10,009 --> 02:17:11,570
to plan lanes regulations.

3506
02:17:11,570 --> 02:17:14,075
Those are the most
important documents.

3507
02:17:14,075 --> 02:17:15,980
They include the goals and

3508
02:17:15,980 --> 02:17:17,150
policies and

3509
02:17:17,150 --> 02:17:19,520
implementation plan,
the urban area.

3510
02:17:19,520 --> 02:17:22,940
The goal seven and
policy one of echo,

3511
02:17:22,940 --> 02:17:23,779
which you'll hear talked

3512
02:17:23,779 --> 02:17:25,235
about a little bit today,

3513
02:17:25,235 --> 02:17:27,755
contained in that
birth document.

3514
02:17:27,755 --> 02:17:30,469
The counties urban growth

3515
02:17:30,469 --> 02:17:32,449
area zoning
ordinance flies

3516
02:17:32,449 --> 02:17:35,749
and this urbanized
area there.

3517
02:17:35,749 --> 02:17:37,400
The county
subdivision ordinance

3518
02:17:37,400 --> 02:17:38,329
will be referenced.

3519
02:17:38,329 --> 02:17:39,559
And there's an
inter-governmental

3520
02:17:39,559 --> 02:17:40,669
agreement of

3521
02:17:40,669 --> 02:17:42,560
19.4 that's part of

3522
02:17:42,560 --> 02:17:44,059
the counties
acknowledged company

3523
02:17:44,059 --> 02:17:45,869
to plan and manage.

3524
02:17:48,280 --> 02:17:51,200
All the parties in this
case have agreed on

3525
02:17:51,200 --> 02:17:54,230
what the disputed decision

3526
02:17:54,230 --> 02:17:56,090
or a series of

3527
02:17:56,090 --> 02:17:57,590
26th decisions that are

3528
02:17:57,590 --> 02:18:01,909
striped beginning
on page 5.6.

3529
02:18:01,909 --> 02:18:04,879
They're depicted before

3530
02:18:04,879 --> 02:18:05,930
at the red dots on it.

3531
02:18:05,930 --> 02:18:09,570
Now, most of them
are subdivision.

3532
02:18:12,400 --> 02:18:19,055
Located. Physically
separated from cities,

3533
02:18:19,055 --> 02:18:20,450
urban infrastructure.

3534
02:18:20,450 --> 02:18:21,965
There's one.

3535
02:18:21,965 --> 02:18:23,420
Municipal water is

3536
02:18:23,420 --> 02:18:26,850
this outside and
not connected.

3537
02:18:33,940 --> 02:18:35,959
There are some services

3538
02:18:35,959 --> 02:18:37,175
that already have issued.

3539
02:18:37,175 --> 02:18:38,524
Sewer is one of them.

3540
02:18:38,524 --> 02:18:40,880
The entire urbanized area

3541
02:18:40,880 --> 02:18:44,150
has sewer available so
that the presence or

3542
02:18:44,150 --> 02:18:48,440
lack of sewers
and there are

3543
02:18:48,440 --> 02:18:49,970
other services that aren't

3544
02:18:49,970 --> 02:18:51,740
disputed and those
included plans

3545
02:18:51,740 --> 02:18:53,315
on any subject you control

3546
02:18:53,315 --> 02:18:56,100
health services and
the government.

3547
02:18:56,140 --> 02:18:58,415
The remaining issues that

3548
02:18:58,415 --> 02:18:59,960
are running services that

3549
02:18:59,960 --> 02:19:03,380
are used include water,

3550
02:19:03,380 --> 02:19:06,439
drainage, fire protection,
open space, parks,

3551
02:19:06,439 --> 02:19:08,060
and recreation as a group,

3552
02:19:08,060 --> 02:19:12,994
and transportation
stated simply,

3553
02:19:12,994 --> 02:19:15,140
the fundamental
dispute on this page

3554
02:19:15,140 --> 02:19:17,359
is the issue of

3555
02:19:17,359 --> 02:19:20,639
when those services
have to be provided.

3556
02:19:21,490 --> 02:19:23,600
Petitioner take
the position

3557
02:19:23,600 --> 02:19:24,889
that they have
to be provided.

3558
02:19:24,889 --> 02:19:26,405
They either have
to be present

3559
02:19:26,405 --> 02:19:27,589
or providing concurrently

3560
02:19:27,589 --> 02:19:28,985
with development approval.

3561
02:19:28,985 --> 02:19:30,845
We County's position.

3562
02:19:30,845 --> 02:19:35,670
Services may be provided
after individually.

3563
02:19:40,450 --> 02:19:44,870
The factual
situations as far

3564
02:19:44,870 --> 02:19:49,509
as what are services
begins on page seven.

3565
02:19:49,509 --> 02:19:52,790
The situation
essentially, as

3566
02:19:52,790 --> 02:19:56,389
the county crews
individual development,

3567
02:19:56,389 --> 02:19:59,374
they are either
required to connect to

3568
02:19:59,374 --> 02:20:01,580
city's municipal
water system

3569
02:20:01,580 --> 02:20:03,904
that use that as
a term of art.

3570
02:20:03,904 --> 02:20:06,604
Or if they're
located beyond

3571
02:20:06,604 --> 02:20:07,999
300 ft from

3572
02:20:07,999 --> 02:20:10,534
the existing municipal
water system.

3573
02:20:10,534 --> 02:20:14,764
What the county requires
under the applicable

3574
02:20:14,764 --> 02:20:17,209
that in

3575
02:20:17,209 --> 02:20:20,899
ground community water
system, provided.

3576
02:20:20,899 --> 02:20:23,390
And that system design

3577
02:20:23,390 --> 02:20:25,579
so that it can
be connected to

3578
02:20:25,579 --> 02:20:27,770
the cities or system when

3579
02:20:27,770 --> 02:20:31,204
it reaches that
development.

3580
02:20:31,204 --> 02:20:34,310
But that in the
interim between where

3581
02:20:34,310 --> 02:20:35,869
the development
is approved and

3582
02:20:35,869 --> 02:20:37,790
that extended,

3583
02:20:37,790 --> 02:20:40,220
they are connected
to individual well.

3584
02:20:40,220 --> 02:20:43,160
The consequences of having

3585
02:20:43,160 --> 02:20:45,394
those systems connected
to individual well,

3586
02:20:45,394 --> 02:20:50,840
as well as the
same flow volume

3587
02:20:50,840 --> 02:20:53,674
that the municipal
water supply.

3588
02:20:53,674 --> 02:20:55,504
And that means that

3589
02:20:55,504 --> 02:20:56,720
the biggest consequence of

3590
02:20:56,720 --> 02:20:58,100
that is you do not have

3591
02:20:58,100 --> 02:21:00,410
the same fire
flows the present

3592
02:21:00,410 --> 02:21:04,655
inside until for one
system disconnect.

3593
02:21:04,655 --> 02:21:06,754
There's only, as I
indicated before on

3594
02:21:06,754 --> 02:21:09,245
one of these 26
developments that

3595
02:21:09,245 --> 02:21:11,390
is connected to the city

3596
02:21:11,390 --> 02:21:18,110
towards the discussion
of fire protection,

3597
02:21:18,110 --> 02:21:21,329
services began to
take nine and order

3598
02:21:21,340 --> 02:21:27,020
basically 25
developments that

3599
02:21:27,020 --> 02:21:28,280
are not connected to

3600
02:21:28,280 --> 02:21:30,019
the municipal
water system,

3601
02:21:30,019 --> 02:21:32,000
fire protection services

3602
02:21:32,000 --> 02:21:34,680
through rural
fire detection.

3603
02:21:37,360 --> 02:21:40,940
The discretion of
transportation facilities

3604
02:21:40,940 --> 02:21:44,939
begins on page ten of
the proposed order.

3605
02:21:46,060 --> 02:21:48,409
Similar to the approach is

3606
02:21:48,409 --> 02:21:50,869
taken with water systems,

3607
02:21:50,869 --> 02:21:54,019
when individual
developments are accrued.

3608
02:21:54,019 --> 02:21:59,045
The county requires that

3609
02:21:59,045 --> 02:22:00,950
those developments improve

3610
02:22:00,950 --> 02:22:04,980
internal street
system to cities.

3611
02:22:05,200 --> 02:22:10,790
And the parties agree

3612
02:22:10,790 --> 02:22:11,809
that that
incident that has

3613
02:22:11,809 --> 02:22:13,790
occurred in all of
these developments,

3614
02:22:13,790 --> 02:22:16,354
what hasn't
occurred is that

3615
02:22:16,354 --> 02:22:19,250
the connecting rod
system that connects

3616
02:22:19,250 --> 02:22:20,510
those developments to

3617
02:22:20,510 --> 02:22:23,675
each other and city
agreements passed.

3618
02:22:23,675 --> 02:22:25,609
Those roads are
not developed.

3619
02:22:25,609 --> 02:22:34,330
The polar regions.
Regarding mass transit,

3620
02:22:34,330 --> 02:22:35,740
there is mass
transit service

3621
02:22:35,740 --> 02:22:37,915
available in your area?

3622
02:22:37,915 --> 02:22:39,490
It's not I was not able to

3623
02:22:39,490 --> 02:22:41,289
determine evidence
and submitted

3624
02:22:41,289 --> 02:22:42,610
or any hearing
whether that level of

3625
02:22:42,610 --> 02:22:47,120
services is equal to
what's provided inside.

3626
02:22:49,260 --> 02:22:53,305
Discussion, storm drainage
begins on page 12.

3627
02:22:53,305 --> 02:22:55,465
The stone grinding
situation basically

3628
02:22:55,465 --> 02:22:57,280
tracks the situation that

3629
02:22:57,280 --> 02:22:59,629
the improvements
to the roads.

3630
02:23:00,000 --> 02:23:02,229
Roads are constructed.

3631
02:23:02,229 --> 02:23:04,180
You can individual
elements

3632
02:23:04,180 --> 02:23:07,120
those roads as part

3633
02:23:07,120 --> 02:23:07,750
of the construction of

3634
02:23:07,750 --> 02:23:09,839
those roads,
storm drainage,

3635
02:23:09,839 --> 02:23:11,540
I was gone danger
soldiers at

3636
02:23:11,540 --> 02:23:15,289
the rest of the system,

3637
02:23:15,289 --> 02:23:16,559
the connecting
part of the system

3638
02:23:16,559 --> 02:23:17,659
connects the developments

3639
02:23:17,659 --> 02:23:20,810
and connected city is not

3640
02:23:20,810 --> 02:23:27,260
developed through parks,

3641
02:23:27,260 --> 02:23:28,039
recreation, and open.

3642
02:23:28,039 --> 02:23:31,500
Today's discussion
begins on page 13.

3643
02:23:33,130 --> 02:23:35,510
The city has adopted

3644
02:23:35,510 --> 02:23:37,819
a Parks and Recreation
master plan.

3645
02:23:37,819 --> 02:23:42,530
The County Parks
and Recreation

3646
02:23:42,530 --> 02:23:44,239
master plan and adopted by

3647
02:23:44,239 --> 02:23:47,690
the C calls for 7.9 the

3648
02:23:47,690 --> 02:23:52,099
baby bird to his
neighborhood, park area.

3649
02:23:52,099 --> 02:23:56,339
None of those had
been instructed.

3650
02:23:57,400 --> 02:24:00,229
The park availability
situation

3651
02:24:00,229 --> 02:24:04,099
and they have access to

3652
02:24:04,099 --> 02:24:07,204
Park City to access

3653
02:24:07,204 --> 02:24:11,659
outside urbanizing
Marion County.

3654
02:24:11,659 --> 02:24:16,144
But there are no Parks.

3655
02:24:16,144 --> 02:24:21,439
Neighborhood.
School was built

3656
02:24:21,439 --> 02:24:27,589
as a development partner.

3657
02:24:27,589 --> 02:24:31,279
Police protection.
Discussions that

3658
02:24:31,279 --> 02:24:33,259
begins carries

3659
02:24:33,259 --> 02:24:40,549
over your enemy hearing.

3660
02:24:40,549 --> 02:24:46,670
Testimony. To describe it.

3661
02:24:46,670 --> 02:24:48,500
The police the
funds available for

3662
02:24:48,500 --> 02:24:53,329
police protection
and drop over

3663
02:24:53,329 --> 02:24:55,324
the past several years as

3664
02:24:55,324 --> 02:25:02,510
OMC County Sheriff's
Office at this point,

3665
02:25:02,510 --> 02:25:04,250
while it provides
better service to

3666
02:25:04,250 --> 02:25:05,300
their urbanizing area and

3667
02:25:05,300 --> 02:25:06,440
then it does to
other portions

3668
02:25:06,440 --> 02:25:09,650
of accounting is not
police protection at

3669
02:25:09,650 --> 02:25:10,864
the same level of the

3670
02:25:10,864 --> 02:25:14,460
sea advance
provides began.

3671
02:25:15,670 --> 02:25:17,719
That's a quick overview of

3672
02:25:17,719 --> 02:25:19,459
the factual situation in

3673
02:25:19,459 --> 02:25:26,000
urban and conclusions of

3674
02:25:26,000 --> 02:25:28,155
law opinion section
of the proposal.

3675
02:25:28,155 --> 02:25:30,930
It begins on page 15.

3676
02:25:31,060 --> 02:25:33,499
For purposes of
this proceeding,

3677
02:25:33,499 --> 02:25:35,479
the definition of
urban level of

3678
02:25:35,479 --> 02:25:37,759
service that I used as
a working definition

3679
02:25:37,759 --> 02:25:39,500
was those levels of

3680
02:25:39,500 --> 02:25:41,150
services that
are equal to a

3681
02:25:41,150 --> 02:25:43,009
comparable to the level

3682
02:25:43,009 --> 02:25:44,854
of service that
are inside, there.

3683
02:25:44,854 --> 02:25:47,645
Inside to see there's

3684
02:25:47,645 --> 02:25:49,370
some support for that

3685
02:25:49,370 --> 02:25:51,725
general working
definition directly

3686
02:25:51,725 --> 02:25:54,410
from the company to plan

3687
02:25:54,410 --> 02:25:58,924
since we go long term is.

3688
02:25:58,924 --> 02:26:00,230
All the land in

3689
02:26:00,230 --> 02:26:01,819
your urbanizing area
ultimately would

3690
02:26:01,819 --> 02:26:05,689
be annexed to the
full range of

3691
02:26:05,689 --> 02:26:11,869
herpes those turning to

3692
02:26:11,869 --> 02:26:15,390
page 16 of the
proposed order.

3693
02:26:16,600 --> 02:26:19,010
This is the plan, goal,

3694
02:26:19,010 --> 02:26:22,625
and policy that is the
crux of this case.

3695
02:26:22,625 --> 02:26:26,760
It begins on line 17.

3696
02:26:29,680 --> 02:26:32,870
70, provide facilities and

3697
02:26:32,870 --> 02:26:34,880
services for the
urban growth boundary

3698
02:26:34,880 --> 02:26:36,620
here in a manner that
will enhance and

3699
02:26:36,620 --> 02:26:40,320
encourage efficient
economic, uncoordinated.

3700
02:26:40,990 --> 02:26:43,519
Following that goal, there

3701
02:26:43,519 --> 02:26:45,110
are a number of
what they approved,

3702
02:26:45,110 --> 02:26:46,729
but the answers to

3703
02:26:46,729 --> 02:26:50,675
the General Services
columns, the first one,

3704
02:26:50,675 --> 02:26:53,510
the one that
petitioner has

3705
02:26:53,510 --> 02:26:56,585
cited most frequently
in his argument,

3706
02:26:56,585 --> 02:26:59,255
that general
policy requires

3707
02:26:59,255 --> 02:27:00,920
that urban levels
of development

3708
02:27:00,920 --> 02:27:03,060
shall require
an urban level.

3709
02:27:06,070 --> 02:27:09,409
It was my interpretation

3710
02:27:09,409 --> 02:27:10,609
of that provision that

3711
02:27:10,609 --> 02:27:14,870
that policy
expressly requires

3712
02:27:14,870 --> 02:27:17,435
that level of
service provided,

3713
02:27:17,435 --> 02:27:19,009
urban levels of
development.

3714
02:27:19,009 --> 02:27:20,119
He doesn't say when and it

3715
02:27:20,119 --> 02:27:22,399
doesn't say who's
going to provide.

3716
02:27:22,399 --> 02:27:25,835
To get at those questions.

3717
02:27:25,835 --> 02:27:30,875
Have to look at
implementing ordinances,

3718
02:27:30,875 --> 02:27:34,789
provide context and
discussion of those.

3719
02:27:34,789 --> 02:27:39,510
Implementing ordinances
begins on page 17.

3720
02:27:48,250 --> 02:27:52,730
First document is 1981,

3721
02:27:52,730 --> 02:27:56,460
joint urban areas
service services.

3722
02:28:01,110 --> 02:28:03,370
This document adopted

3723
02:28:03,370 --> 02:28:06,040
whatever development
standards.

3724
02:28:06,040 --> 02:28:08,245
Those are
important because

3725
02:28:08,245 --> 02:28:11,274
as we discuss any order,

3726
02:28:11,274 --> 02:28:12,429
when you go through

3727
02:28:12,429 --> 02:28:13,900
those interim
development standards,

3728
02:28:13,900 --> 02:28:17,844
it makes very clear both
the Langerhans cell

3729
02:28:17,844 --> 02:28:18,970
and the standards
that were

3730
02:28:18,970 --> 02:28:20,545
adopted as part of it,

3731
02:28:20,545 --> 02:28:25,300
that the intent
would be allowed

3732
02:28:25,300 --> 02:28:28,510
to pre-approve dance of

3733
02:28:28,510 --> 02:28:30,234
the full range of
urban service.

3734
02:28:30,234 --> 02:28:37,850
Disgust. Then
suddenly 18.19,

3735
02:28:37,850 --> 02:28:44,325
1981, intergovernmental
agreement was placed.

3736
02:28:44,325 --> 02:28:50,659
The document for
discussion today,

3737
02:28:50,659 --> 02:28:53,039
document begins on page

3738
02:28:55,960 --> 02:28:59,839
does acknowledge
here is for

3739
02:28:59,839 --> 02:29:01,250
the same approach that

3740
02:29:01,250 --> 02:29:03,784
was taken in the morning.

3741
02:29:03,784 --> 02:29:05,750
If you'll look
at the language

3742
02:29:05,750 --> 02:29:10,950
on page those border,

3743
02:29:11,740 --> 02:29:15,830
12.3 in line
three on page 20

3744
02:29:15,830 --> 02:29:20,239
of that agreement,
in my view,

3745
02:29:20,239 --> 02:29:21,409
made it pretty clear that

3746
02:29:21,409 --> 02:29:28,339
the petitioners arguments
that the full range

3747
02:29:28,339 --> 02:29:30,080
of urban services
can be provided at

3748
02:29:30,080 --> 02:29:32,299
the time of approval was

3749
02:29:32,299 --> 02:29:34,010
inconsistent with
this agreement and

3750
02:29:34,010 --> 02:29:37,469
disagreement consistent
with that position.

3751
02:29:37,690 --> 02:29:41,339
Number one makes it stays.

3752
02:29:41,590 --> 02:29:45,934
Urbanizing areas,
potentially be serviced.

3753
02:29:45,934 --> 02:29:49,159
Describes those services

3754
02:29:49,159 --> 02:29:51,350
being provided
to citizens.

3755
02:29:51,350 --> 02:29:55,039
Request, identifies

3756
02:29:55,039 --> 02:29:58,670
the candy role role
in facilitating

3757
02:29:58,670 --> 02:30:03,439
translation
from turning to

3758
02:30:03,439 --> 02:30:07,680
the urban growth period
zoning ordinance.

3759
02:30:08,920 --> 02:30:12,529
Identify one
criterion that's

3760
02:30:12,529 --> 02:30:15,239
included in
that ordinance.

3761
02:30:15,250 --> 02:30:17,480
In approving these
developments,

3762
02:30:17,480 --> 02:30:21,905
the county does dress

3763
02:30:21,905 --> 02:30:25,339
whether there is adequate
capacity to serve,

3764
02:30:25,339 --> 02:30:29,399
develop adequate
public facilities.

3765
02:30:30,310 --> 02:30:33,990
But the ordinances require

3766
02:30:36,040 --> 02:30:39,724
count and ensure an
urban level of services.

3767
02:30:39,724 --> 02:30:41,869
Either they are available

3768
02:30:41,869 --> 02:30:44,060
at the time the
applications submitted or

3769
02:30:44,060 --> 02:30:51,649
providing currently
the approval site.

3770
02:30:51,649 --> 02:30:53,599
The middle of the page 21

3771
02:30:53,599 --> 02:30:56,300
sections that
describe generally

3772
02:30:56,300 --> 02:30:58,129
transportation
civil war as one

3773
02:30:58,129 --> 02:31:02,569
of those sections
specifically

3774
02:31:02,569 --> 02:31:05,779
provide where
developments are

3775
02:31:05,779 --> 02:31:11,354
located beyond the
water system, e.g.

3776
02:31:11,354 --> 02:31:15,530
the systems provided
the condition

3777
02:31:15,530 --> 02:31:16,940
that they ultimately
connect to them.

3778
02:31:16,940 --> 02:31:23,240
This consistent
discussion of

3779
02:31:23,240 --> 02:31:25,910
the subdivision or this
begins on page 21.

3780
02:31:25,910 --> 02:31:27,379
And if that ordinance

3781
02:31:27,379 --> 02:31:30,659
carries the same approach.

3782
02:31:36,640 --> 02:31:39,604
Okay, beginning of 22,

3783
02:31:39,604 --> 02:31:43,829
discussion seven policy.

3784
02:31:46,210 --> 02:31:49,849
I think it's important
to note that under

3785
02:31:49,849 --> 02:31:51,619
the counties and cities

3786
02:31:51,619 --> 02:31:53,780
regulatory scheme
that goals,

3787
02:31:53,780 --> 02:31:57,499
goals are not approval

3788
02:31:57,499 --> 02:32:00,600
criteria to directly
apply to development.

3789
02:32:01,060 --> 02:32:03,649
In fact, the goal

3790
02:32:03,649 --> 02:32:05,209
in policy, can you
read them together?

3791
02:32:05,209 --> 02:32:06,829
Presley's estate,
but they're

3792
02:32:06,829 --> 02:32:10,409
implemented through
other ordinances.

3793
02:32:11,920 --> 02:32:14,729
Ordinances.

3794
02:32:15,640 --> 02:32:18,094
The goal of
policy referred

3795
02:32:18,094 --> 02:32:21,109
to are the subdivision
ordinance.

3796
02:32:21,109 --> 02:32:26,194
And look at those
provisions,

3797
02:32:26,194 --> 02:32:28,189
they make it
very clear that

3798
02:32:28,189 --> 02:32:29,750
the government wanted to

3799
02:32:29,750 --> 02:32:31,849
prove the sewer have

3800
02:32:31,849 --> 02:32:33,770
to be in place with
the other services,

3801
02:32:33,770 --> 02:32:36,394
particularly water,
is an important one.

3802
02:32:36,394 --> 02:32:39,019
If the development
is beyond 300 ft,

3803
02:32:39,019 --> 02:32:41,479
exist anymore names and

3804
02:32:41,479 --> 02:32:45,680
installed, constructed,
and tested.

3805
02:32:45,680 --> 02:32:47,780
But the connection can be

3806
02:32:47,780 --> 02:32:51,750
deferred until you decide.

3807
02:33:00,430 --> 02:33:02,930
I think probably
the critical point.

3808
02:33:02,930 --> 02:33:05,839
And we knew this goal

3809
02:33:05,839 --> 02:33:07,639
77 policy

3810
02:33:07,639 --> 02:33:09,695
learning contexts
for these ordinance.

3811
02:33:09,695 --> 02:33:11,900
It was my conclusion
basically simply could

3812
02:33:11,900 --> 02:33:16,910
not require the
current division

3813
02:33:16,910 --> 02:33:21,649
of water zoning ordinance

3814
02:33:21,649 --> 02:33:22,670
specifically provided

3815
02:33:22,670 --> 02:33:30,360
other skipping
over section.

3816
02:33:31,450 --> 02:33:34,620
On page 25.

3817
02:33:41,410 --> 02:33:42,979
This section

3818
02:33:42,979 --> 02:33:45,540
was included to
address an argument.

3819
02:33:47,530 --> 02:33:54,769
Or S1 requires that goal

3820
02:33:54,769 --> 02:33:56,090
setting and goal
setting policy

3821
02:33:56,090 --> 02:34:00,860
is interpreted consistently
with goals 11.

3822
02:34:00,860 --> 02:34:04,019
Stay wet
fundamental level.

3823
02:34:05,260 --> 02:34:09,050
The initial or
first response

3824
02:34:09,050 --> 02:34:11,689
to that argument
is that for S1,

3825
02:34:11,689 --> 02:34:15,065
S2, 7829, governance
Louisville review

3826
02:34:15,065 --> 02:34:17,360
simply doesn't
apply in this.

3827
02:34:17,360 --> 02:34:19,819
But the department
took the position

3828
02:34:19,819 --> 02:34:21,874
I agree with
the department.

3829
02:34:21,874 --> 02:34:24,289
And even an
acknowledgement

3830
02:34:24,289 --> 02:34:29,169
deceiving pretty close.

3831
02:34:29,169 --> 02:34:29,874
Go ahead.

3832
02:34:29,874 --> 02:34:31,920
Go ahead, wrap up.

3833
02:34:33,430 --> 02:34:35,749
I agree with the
department that even

3834
02:34:35,749 --> 02:34:37,564
in an Enforcement
Order preceding,

3835
02:34:37,564 --> 02:34:41,330
you must address an
ambiguous complaints.

3836
02:34:41,330 --> 02:34:43,039
And finally, lands
regulation division,

3837
02:34:43,039 --> 02:34:45,055
as you frequently issue,

3838
02:34:45,055 --> 02:34:48,904
certainly that such an

3839
02:34:48,904 --> 02:34:51,125
ambiguous provision
ought to be injured.

3840
02:34:51,125 --> 02:34:53,819
The goals and the staff.

3841
02:34:53,950 --> 02:34:56,120
The issue that
I thought was

3842
02:34:56,120 --> 02:34:58,099
presented in
proceeding when it

3843
02:34:58,099 --> 02:35:02,819
hit in a drastic
and addressing it.

3844
02:35:04,480 --> 02:35:06,979
Essentially, if
you included,

3845
02:35:06,979 --> 02:35:09,350
you have to have
an ambiguity to

3846
02:35:09,350 --> 02:35:13,655
put arguments
that you have,

3847
02:35:13,655 --> 02:35:14,894
that you have to interpret

3848
02:35:14,894 --> 02:35:16,279
it in a particular way.

3849
02:35:16,279 --> 02:35:17,554
There must be an
ambiguity and

3850
02:35:17,554 --> 02:35:19,520
you would allow
you to make

3851
02:35:19,520 --> 02:35:22,430
that interpretation
applying the principle at

3852
02:35:22,430 --> 02:35:25,399
the Court of Appeals in
that little mustache.

3853
02:35:25,399 --> 02:35:29,269
And my conclusion was

3854
02:35:29,269 --> 02:35:30,860
that there simply
wasn't an ambiguity in

3855
02:35:30,860 --> 02:35:32,330
this comprehensive
plan that

3856
02:35:32,330 --> 02:35:34,039
would allow you to make
that interpretation

3857
02:35:34,039 --> 02:35:38,539
because goal related
implemented policies

3858
02:35:38,539 --> 02:35:41,105
directly contrary to
the interpretation,

3859
02:35:41,105 --> 02:35:45,694
confusion regarding
even if you believe

3860
02:35:45,694 --> 02:35:47,150
the goal is obtain

3861
02:35:47,150 --> 02:35:48,799
the required
current division

3862
02:35:48,799 --> 02:35:51,290
of urban services
and all case.

3863
02:35:51,290 --> 02:35:53,210
I conclude in this section

3864
02:35:53,210 --> 02:35:55,099
the order that you
couldn't read them

3865
02:35:55,099 --> 02:35:56,375
with blaming him because

3866
02:35:56,375 --> 02:35:57,770
the goal and the

3867
02:35:57,770 --> 02:35:59,869
implemented Gordon's
our knowledge

3868
02:35:59,869 --> 02:36:06,980
and they provide a
little more quickly

3869
02:36:06,980 --> 02:36:09,020
turned into the
interpretation

3870
02:36:09,020 --> 02:36:11,189
Goal 11 and go for

3871
02:36:13,810 --> 02:36:16,879
the petitioner cited
some land we can go in

3872
02:36:16,879 --> 02:36:19,745
and argue that based
on that language,

3873
02:36:19,745 --> 02:36:22,939
concurrent provision
of all urban level of

3874
02:36:22,939 --> 02:36:25,309
services provided the time

3875
02:36:25,309 --> 02:36:27,509
you approve them at all.

3876
02:36:29,290 --> 02:36:31,669
I noted that there is

3877
02:36:31,669 --> 02:36:33,635
at least one case

3878
02:36:33,635 --> 02:36:38,000
where the city had
adopted that approach.

3879
02:36:38,000 --> 02:36:42,740
And that's the
Act required.

3880
02:36:42,740 --> 02:36:44,105
The currency has
standards that are

3881
02:36:44,105 --> 02:36:46,669
required to be available,

3882
02:36:46,669 --> 02:36:51,389
provided with development
committed prior to.

3883
02:36:53,650 --> 02:36:55,925
But I also noted that

3884
02:36:55,925 --> 02:36:58,099
beginning on page
29 and goal,

3885
02:36:58,099 --> 02:36:59,240
that is other
language that

3886
02:36:59,240 --> 02:37:01,205
makes it reasonably clear.

3887
02:37:01,205 --> 02:37:05,015
Standard, more
subjective, standard.

3888
02:37:05,015 --> 02:37:06,440
Wire the time,

3889
02:37:06,440 --> 02:37:09,030
the orderly, inefficient
arrangement.

3890
02:37:10,240 --> 02:37:16,160
Language does not require
based on language,

3891
02:37:16,160 --> 02:37:19,070
I tend to go on and
require that there be

3892
02:37:19,070 --> 02:37:20,239
concurrent provision

3893
02:37:20,239 --> 02:37:24,019
of services in all cases.

3894
02:37:24,019 --> 02:37:26,849
There's more flexibility.

3895
02:37:29,950 --> 02:37:34,849
And begin on page three,

3896
02:37:34,849 --> 02:37:35,899
I dressed as a similar

3897
02:37:35,899 --> 02:37:41,209
argument there that
there's nothing

3898
02:37:41,209 --> 02:37:44,074
and go 14 requires

3899
02:37:44,074 --> 02:37:46,430
the full range of services

3900
02:37:46,430 --> 02:37:48,660
to be provided before you,

3901
02:37:50,560 --> 02:37:54,500
literally a quick trip
through the border.

3902
02:37:54,500 --> 02:37:57,840
But during that time,

3903
02:38:00,430 --> 02:38:02,779
the petitioner
contraceptions,

3904
02:38:02,779 --> 02:38:05,030
as I indicated in
the department,

3905
02:38:05,030 --> 02:38:08,210
based on the procedure
that was laid out,

3906
02:38:08,210 --> 02:38:11,749
the parties shouldn't
be I'll give

3907
02:38:11,749 --> 02:38:15,560
them an opportunity to
be exceptions to you.

3908
02:38:15,560 --> 02:38:17,119
I'm available for
questions now.

3909
02:38:17,119 --> 02:38:21,919
If you have the

3910
02:38:21,919 --> 02:38:25,020
petitioner reserve
some time for them,

3911
02:38:26,710 --> 02:38:30,799
why don't we unless
people have a burning,

3912
02:38:30,799 --> 02:38:32,510
need to ask a question
while we try and

3913
02:38:32,510 --> 02:38:34,459
hold questions
until we get here,

3914
02:38:34,459 --> 02:38:36,479
but everybody
and then we can

3915
02:38:38,560 --> 02:38:41,495
get quite a bit of
testimony it take okay.

3916
02:38:41,495 --> 02:38:42,484
Well, wait.

3917
02:38:42,484 --> 02:38:48,110
Somebody next person who

3918
02:38:48,110 --> 02:38:49,789
would speak to us
would be Steve.

3919
02:38:49,789 --> 02:38:52,144
Do I understand
you're going to

3920
02:38:52,144 --> 02:38:55,474
reserve five-minutes of
your 20 for rebuttal.

3921
02:38:55,474 --> 02:38:57,319
Since I gave him a
couple of extra minutes,

3922
02:38:57,319 --> 02:38:59,639
you'll have a few
extra minutes to.

3923
02:39:12,010 --> 02:39:17,689
So honorable
commissioners. Of course,

3924
02:39:17,689 --> 02:39:19,160
I was disappointed with

3925
02:39:19,160 --> 02:39:23,779
the hearings officers
proposed order

3926
02:39:23,779 --> 02:39:29,030
because it seems
to me that it's

3927
02:39:29,030 --> 02:39:32,044
not going to get
city services

3928
02:39:32,044 --> 02:39:35,030
put into the
urbanizing area.

3929
02:39:35,030 --> 02:39:38,359
And it's been
a long process

3930
02:39:38,359 --> 02:39:40,414
and a very costly process.

3931
02:39:40,414 --> 02:39:43,279
County estimated $20,000.

3932
02:39:43,279 --> 02:39:45,020
It's been thousands
of dollars of

3933
02:39:45,020 --> 02:39:49,409
my my own personal
money and time.

3934
02:39:51,730 --> 02:39:55,370
And perhaps I attack

3935
02:39:55,370 --> 02:39:57,710
the wrong, the
wrong target.

3936
02:39:57,710 --> 02:40:01,520
In this case, I
saw that the city

3937
02:40:01,520 --> 02:40:03,830
was being created and

3938
02:40:03,830 --> 02:40:05,449
it wasn't being
provided services.

3939
02:40:05,449 --> 02:40:08,119
And somehow I didn't
think that that could

3940
02:40:08,119 --> 02:40:09,229
happen and it certainly

3941
02:40:09,229 --> 02:40:11,435
wouldn't be legally
sanctioned.

3942
02:40:11,435 --> 02:40:14,150
But I have great
respect for

3943
02:40:14,150 --> 02:40:16,580
the hearings
officers opinion.

3944
02:40:16,580 --> 02:40:18,350
And I think that

3945
02:40:18,350 --> 02:40:20,730
I think that it
was sanctioned.

3946
02:40:23,230 --> 02:40:26,269
I think Josephine
County has followed

3947
02:40:26,269 --> 02:40:28,489
its comprehensive
plan, has followed.

3948
02:40:28,489 --> 02:40:29,929
It's what I call

3949
02:40:29,929 --> 02:40:32,600
so-called implementing,
for instance.

3950
02:40:32,600 --> 02:40:38,000
And has allowed property

3951
02:40:38,000 --> 02:40:39,529
within the urbanizing
area to be

3952
02:40:39,529 --> 02:40:43,110
developed according
to its standard.

3953
02:40:43,930 --> 02:40:47,630
I don t feel how
I still feel,

3954
02:40:47,630 --> 02:40:51,095
however, that the city
should be serviced.

3955
02:40:51,095 --> 02:40:52,714
It's going to be created.

3956
02:40:52,714 --> 02:40:57,049
And the LCD and
it's brief,

3957
02:40:57,049 --> 02:40:59,000
stated that services did

3958
02:40:59,000 --> 02:41:00,079
not have to be provided

3959
02:41:00,079 --> 02:41:01,519
either before or even

3960
02:41:01,519 --> 02:41:04,025
concurrently with
development.

3961
02:41:04,025 --> 02:41:05,929
So to me, that
means there's

3962
02:41:05,929 --> 02:41:07,220
only one other possibility

3963
02:41:07,220 --> 02:41:08,930
that services well,

3964
02:41:08,930 --> 02:41:10,159
first of all, services
maybe wouldn't

3965
02:41:10,159 --> 02:41:11,600
have to write it at all.

3966
02:41:11,600 --> 02:41:12,590
But if they do have to be

3967
02:41:12,590 --> 02:41:13,820
provided and they
don't have to be

3968
02:41:13,820 --> 02:41:16,160
provided either
concurrently or before.

3969
02:41:16,160 --> 02:41:18,499
Then they'd be
provided afterwards.

3970
02:41:18,499 --> 02:41:20,720
And by that prescription,

3971
02:41:20,720 --> 02:41:22,460
Josephine County has done

3972
02:41:22,460 --> 02:41:23,809
everything it should do.

3973
02:41:23,809 --> 02:41:25,849
It It's been 13 years

3974
02:41:25,849 --> 02:41:27,484
since the plan
was acknowledged.

3975
02:41:27,484 --> 02:41:29,240
Lots of development
is taking place.

3976
02:41:29,240 --> 02:41:31,309
If you look carefully
around those red dots,

3977
02:41:31,309 --> 02:41:33,079
you will see that
the urbanizing areas

3978
02:41:33,079 --> 02:41:34,295
then approximately half,

3979
02:41:34,295 --> 02:41:38,280
50% filled with
urban development.

3980
02:41:38,890 --> 02:41:43,070
A key services have
not been provided.

3981
02:41:43,070 --> 02:41:45,350
Here are a few key urban

3982
02:41:45,350 --> 02:41:47,780
levels of services have
not been provided.

3983
02:41:47,780 --> 02:41:50,810
But according to the LCD

3984
02:41:50,810 --> 02:41:51,829
that there's nothing wrong

3985
02:41:51,829 --> 02:41:53,840
with that because services

3986
02:41:53,840 --> 02:41:55,700
can be provided
after development.

3987
02:41:55,700 --> 02:41:57,199
Well, here it's 13 years

3988
02:41:57,199 --> 02:41:59,735
after services have
been provided yet.

3989
02:41:59,735 --> 02:42:01,549
Maybe in another 13 years,

3990
02:42:01,549 --> 02:42:02,390
the area will be

3991
02:42:02,390 --> 02:42:04,129
completely filled
with development.

3992
02:42:04,129 --> 02:42:07,415
But still, there is no
time limit on after.

3993
02:42:07,415 --> 02:42:10,670
And according to I
saw nothing in DLC,

3994
02:42:10,670 --> 02:42:14,165
these brief that put
a time limit on it.

3995
02:42:14,165 --> 02:42:17,270
The time limit I
saw in Goal 11.

3996
02:42:17,270 --> 02:42:22,220
Was that services
have to be

3997
02:42:22,220 --> 02:42:29,219
provided to guide and
support development.

3998
02:42:29,500 --> 02:42:32,480
In dosing counties plans

3999
02:42:32,480 --> 02:42:34,534
incarnation of Goal 11.

4000
02:42:34,534 --> 02:42:36,530
It said that the services

4001
02:42:36,530 --> 02:42:37,894
have to be provided in

4002
02:42:37,894 --> 02:42:45,050
a way which forgotten
the exact language,

4003
02:42:45,050 --> 02:42:49,984
but not as a framework.

4004
02:42:49,984 --> 02:42:51,560
I mean, the
goal 11 says as

4005
02:42:51,560 --> 02:42:53,974
a framework but similar,
similar to that.

4006
02:42:53,974 --> 02:42:55,849
Basically the
development is

4007
02:42:55,849 --> 02:42:58,235
guided by by services,

4008
02:42:58,235 --> 02:42:59,824
not the other way round.

4009
02:42:59,824 --> 02:43:01,970
But if services
aren't provided

4010
02:43:01,970 --> 02:43:03,560
than in-house development

4011
02:43:03,560 --> 02:43:04,970
going to be guided by it.

4012
02:43:04,970 --> 02:43:10,729
And apparently, the
golf seven says

4013
02:43:10,729 --> 02:43:17,600
that the implementing
ordinances,

4014
02:43:17,600 --> 02:43:20,520
Josephine counties
implementing ordinances,

4015
02:43:20,710 --> 02:43:25,429
say that services have
to be provided when

4016
02:43:25,429 --> 02:43:28,219
the citizens request them

4017
02:43:28,219 --> 02:43:32,045
and when there's
financing for them.

4018
02:43:32,045 --> 02:43:35,000
But that doesn't
provide for

4019
02:43:35,000 --> 02:43:38,465
the economic inefficient
way that services,

4020
02:43:38,465 --> 02:43:39,979
that development
is supposed to

4021
02:43:39,979 --> 02:43:42,650
proceed, proceed
from services.

4022
02:43:42,650 --> 02:43:47,000
And also services need
never be provided

4023
02:43:47,000 --> 02:43:48,770
if they have to wait
for citizens to

4024
02:43:48,770 --> 02:43:51,515
request for financing
to become available.

4025
02:43:51,515 --> 02:43:55,910
And I just can't
believe that Goal 11,

4026
02:43:55,910 --> 02:44:00,604
which I guess
if you created,

4027
02:44:00,604 --> 02:44:02,389
it would allow
for a city to be

4028
02:44:02,389 --> 02:44:04,684
created without
without services.

4029
02:44:04,684 --> 02:44:07,520
At urban services.

4030
02:44:07,520 --> 02:44:10,625
Namely municipal water,

4031
02:44:10,625 --> 02:44:14,194
police protection,
fire protection.

4032
02:44:14,194 --> 02:44:17,824
Streets with sidewalks
and urban streets,

4033
02:44:17,824 --> 02:44:21,785
drainage, the parks and

4034
02:44:21,785 --> 02:44:24,020
recreation facilities
and open space.

4035
02:44:24,020 --> 02:44:25,370
I just can't believe

4036
02:44:25,370 --> 02:44:27,649
that a state like
Oregon would

4037
02:44:27,649 --> 02:44:30,140
allow would

4038
02:44:30,140 --> 02:44:33,890
sanction the cities
without without services.

4039
02:44:33,890 --> 02:44:34,819
I thought that if

4040
02:44:34,819 --> 02:44:35,929
cities are going
to be created,

4041
02:44:35,929 --> 02:44:36,709
they have to be created

4042
02:44:36,709 --> 02:44:38,194
within urban
growth boundary,

4043
02:44:38,194 --> 02:44:41,090
but they also work
to be serviced.

4044
02:44:41,090 --> 02:44:43,429
Dlc D appears to

4045
02:44:43,429 --> 02:44:45,110
be saying and it's
brief that they don't

4046
02:44:45,110 --> 02:44:46,729
have to be
serviced because

4047
02:44:46,729 --> 02:44:48,455
services can be
provided after,

4048
02:44:48,455 --> 02:44:51,260
after development
and after.

4049
02:44:51,260 --> 02:44:54,300
There's no time
limit on after.

4050
02:44:54,460 --> 02:45:00,619
So I am disappointed
with this this process,

4051
02:45:00,619 --> 02:45:03,364
but I think that it
was conducted fairly

4052
02:45:03,364 --> 02:45:06,439
and I'm quite happy

4053
02:45:06,439 --> 02:45:10,865
with the hearings
officers findings.

4054
02:45:10,865 --> 02:45:15,755
I do think though
that period

4055
02:45:15,755 --> 02:45:17,449
that I would hope that

4056
02:45:17,449 --> 02:45:20,209
the commission finds
that it did not mean

4057
02:45:20,209 --> 02:45:21,889
for Goal 11 to allow

4058
02:45:21,889 --> 02:45:24,094
cities to be created
without services,

4059
02:45:24,094 --> 02:45:26,285
and that it would direct

4060
02:45:26,285 --> 02:45:30,289
DLC D2 through periodic
review, I guess,

4061
02:45:30,289 --> 02:45:34,079
to force the county too,

4062
02:45:35,740 --> 02:45:40,760
to change its
implementing ordinances

4063
02:45:40,760 --> 02:45:42,064
so that they do indeed

4064
02:45:42,064 --> 02:45:43,040
implement the goal if

4065
02:45:43,040 --> 02:45:43,849
they are supposed to be,

4066
02:45:43,849 --> 02:45:45,650
that they are designed
to implement.

4067
02:45:45,650 --> 02:45:47,134
Because as it
stands right now,

4068
02:45:47,134 --> 02:45:49,895
the the goal goal seven

4069
02:45:49,895 --> 02:45:51,409
is not implemented by

4070
02:45:51,409 --> 02:45:53,825
its implementing
ordinances.

4071
02:45:53,825 --> 02:45:55,805
That in name only.

4072
02:45:55,805 --> 02:46:00,390
As I've said, an
exception document.

4073
02:46:06,730 --> 02:46:09,350
The hearing officer
said that there is

4074
02:46:09,350 --> 02:46:12,110
no ambiguity
ambiguity ambiguity

4075
02:46:12,110 --> 02:46:16,145
in that the for the

4076
02:46:16,145 --> 02:46:17,749
for the county to make

4077
02:46:17,749 --> 02:46:21,379
an a erroneous
interpretation.

4078
02:46:22,270 --> 02:46:25,040
The County's rules clearly

4079
02:46:25,040 --> 02:46:27,409
state that services
don't have to be

4080
02:46:27,409 --> 02:46:30,110
provided until the city
until the citizens

4081
02:46:30,110 --> 02:46:31,429
request to my report and

4082
02:46:31,429 --> 02:46:33,965
until financing
is available.

4083
02:46:33,965 --> 02:46:36,980
That, however, is
a prescription

4084
02:46:36,980 --> 02:46:39,395
for not getting
services at all.

4085
02:46:39,395 --> 02:46:44,570
And I just would hope

4086
02:46:44,570 --> 02:46:46,550
that you would somehow

4087
02:46:46,550 --> 02:46:48,769
correct the
misapprehension that

4088
02:46:48,769 --> 02:46:50,179
there is about this?

4089
02:46:50,179 --> 02:46:53,119
I'd like to reserve
the rest of my time.

4090
02:46:53,119 --> 02:46:55,140
Okay.

4091
02:47:06,120 --> 02:47:08,349
Now, we're here

4092
02:47:08,349 --> 02:47:10,330
from the county and
the home builders

4093
02:47:10,330 --> 02:47:13,519
that jointly have
up to 20 min.

4094
02:47:22,170 --> 02:47:23,919
You guys figured out how

4095
02:47:23,919 --> 02:47:24,865
you're going to
divide it up?

4096
02:47:24,865 --> 02:47:27,369
Where does the
county okay.

4097
02:47:27,369 --> 02:47:29,299
Yeah.

4098
02:47:32,220 --> 02:47:39,820
Okay. Commissioner
John junk

4099
02:47:39,820 --> 02:47:40,450
and I'm an attorney

4100
02:47:40,450 --> 02:47:42,480
with Bolden Hauser Bailey.

4101
02:47:42,480 --> 02:47:44,929
As retained
represent Joseph.

4102
02:47:44,929 --> 02:47:46,264
Accounting doesn't matter.

4103
02:47:46,264 --> 02:47:47,809
I wouldn't use
Michael Snyder.

4104
02:47:47,809 --> 02:47:48,920
He's via the light

4105
02:47:48,920 --> 02:47:50,660
written for
Josephine County,

4106
02:47:50,660 --> 02:47:53,719
not wanting to
Stanford feet.

4107
02:47:53,719 --> 02:47:54,860
I'll draw the pictorial.

4108
02:47:54,860 --> 02:47:57,649
Keep our comments
fairly brief.

4109
02:47:57,649 --> 02:48:00,634
You already conceded that

4110
02:48:00,634 --> 02:48:02,510
affects a major mistake,

4111
02:48:02,510 --> 02:48:04,280
probably because it
was misunderstood.

4112
02:48:04,280 --> 02:48:07,160
The law proceeding
with enforce order

4113
02:48:07,160 --> 02:48:10,640
was agreed that
the findings

4114
02:48:10,640 --> 02:48:13,024
of Mr. Weston are
accurate and correct.

4115
02:48:13,024 --> 02:48:15,110
And then just
be County has

4116
02:48:15,110 --> 02:48:17,210
not violated commerce and

4117
02:48:17,210 --> 02:48:18,380
planning that each of

4118
02:48:18,380 --> 02:48:20,479
these 26 developments
and he had preached

4119
02:48:20,479 --> 02:48:22,880
alleged possibly
better practice,

4120
02:48:22,880 --> 02:48:25,890
counting as follows.

4121
02:48:28,360 --> 02:48:30,799
I'm fortunate
that we had to go

4122
02:48:30,799 --> 02:48:33,300
through it
indicating process.

4123
02:48:33,390 --> 02:48:39,499
The county comment
that you have within

4124
02:48:39,499 --> 02:48:41,330
your statute
responsibility to make

4125
02:48:41,330 --> 02:48:43,370
a determination of
good cause before you

4126
02:48:43,370 --> 02:48:45,064
direct that there'll be

4127
02:48:45,064 --> 02:48:48,320
further pursued
on enforcement.

4128
02:48:48,320 --> 02:48:49,519
This case.

4129
02:48:49,519 --> 02:48:51,829
He did make that
fine. I understand.

4130
02:48:51,829 --> 02:48:52,849
Having been involved in

4131
02:48:52,849 --> 02:48:54,019
the management board that

4132
02:48:54,019 --> 02:48:55,700
the threshold
and good causes

4133
02:48:55,700 --> 02:48:57,560
is minimal at best.

4134
02:48:57,560 --> 02:49:00,530
I think this case is
an example of why have

4135
02:49:00,530 --> 02:49:03,529
some higher threshold
than normal threshold.

4136
02:49:03,529 --> 02:49:05,210
Justin County got
to go through

4137
02:49:05,210 --> 02:49:06,529
and very expensive process

4138
02:49:06,529 --> 02:49:10,700
here as to what

4139
02:49:10,700 --> 02:49:14,449
the law was clickable,
unnecessary.

4140
02:49:14,449 --> 02:49:15,529
And I think there
could have been

4141
02:49:15,529 --> 02:49:16,910
perhaps a higher
threshold,

4142
02:49:16,910 --> 02:49:19,205
one good cause
finding earlier on.

4143
02:49:19,205 --> 02:49:21,784
Not have to go
through this.

4144
02:49:21,784 --> 02:49:23,930
I do understand
that's the statute.

4145
02:49:23,930 --> 02:49:26,059
That's the way it's
been. Like date.

4146
02:49:26,059 --> 02:49:27,590
If there's an opportunity
for your commission

4147
02:49:27,590 --> 02:49:28,819
to address at some point.

4148
02:49:28,819 --> 02:49:31,580
I understand you
are supported

4149
02:49:31,580 --> 02:49:33,590
that I don't want go

4150
02:49:33,590 --> 02:49:36,079
into any lanky
details as I said,

4151
02:49:36,079 --> 02:49:37,669
the point of your
head like this,

4152
02:49:37,669 --> 02:49:40,275
the worse you want
to say too much.

4153
02:49:40,275 --> 02:49:43,149
I would like to comment as

4154
02:49:43,149 --> 02:49:46,135
just a philosophy or
possibly declining

4155
02:49:46,135 --> 02:49:51,429
situation with Mr. Gu

4156
02:49:51,429 --> 02:49:55,400
is concerned that
under the county plan,

4157
02:49:55,440 --> 02:49:59,200
people many
ordinances involved

4158
02:49:59,200 --> 02:50:02,169
that they are grading
and city up there.

4159
02:50:02,169 --> 02:50:05,679
In fact, what the
county has agreed to do

4160
02:50:05,679 --> 02:50:09,354
and not do is be an
urban service provider.

4161
02:50:09,354 --> 02:50:12,249
You read through the
money ordinances,

4162
02:50:12,249 --> 02:50:15,115
people know that
the county will

4163
02:50:15,115 --> 02:50:16,540
proving developments
require

4164
02:50:16,540 --> 02:50:19,344
some level of levels, e.g.

4165
02:50:19,344 --> 02:50:21,010
within their development,

4166
02:50:21,010 --> 02:50:22,844
they will require that

4167
02:50:22,844 --> 02:50:25,105
development within
water services

4168
02:50:25,105 --> 02:50:26,149
are able to handle

4169
02:50:26,149 --> 02:50:27,740
the city water when

4170
02:50:27,740 --> 02:50:29,750
that water becomes
available.

4171
02:50:29,750 --> 02:50:32,360
Counties are not urban
service provider.

4172
02:50:32,360 --> 02:50:35,530
That's the responsibility
of the city.

4173
02:50:35,920 --> 02:50:39,935
So not only does the
county following plan

4174
02:50:39,935 --> 02:50:42,019
as deep as conceded,

4175
02:50:42,019 --> 02:50:44,060
but there's a
purpose behind it.

4176
02:50:44,060 --> 02:50:46,280
Is that Josephine
counties not

4177
02:50:46,280 --> 02:50:47,990
going to become an urban
services provider,

4178
02:50:47,990 --> 02:50:50,149
deaths the responsibility
of a city.

4179
02:50:50,149 --> 02:50:52,579
You read many ordinances.

4180
02:50:52,579 --> 02:50:55,430
You will also find
provisions whereby city

4181
02:50:55,430 --> 02:50:57,049
and county of
greed by contract

4182
02:50:57,049 --> 02:50:58,490
like intradermal
agreement,

4183
02:50:58,490 --> 02:51:01,310
that they won't create
any special districts

4184
02:51:01,310 --> 02:51:02,840
out there that
might otherwise

4185
02:51:02,840 --> 02:51:04,969
substitute themselves
for students.

4186
02:51:04,969 --> 02:51:06,979
I must hold them
should agree to that.

4187
02:51:06,979 --> 02:51:08,960
Again, That's
Paul's philosophy

4188
02:51:08,960 --> 02:51:10,219
that you don't want to

4189
02:51:10,219 --> 02:51:12,920
create cities
with the counties

4190
02:51:12,920 --> 02:51:14,869
that urban
services provider.

4191
02:51:14,869 --> 02:51:17,090
So basically in summary,

4192
02:51:17,090 --> 02:51:18,859
we just agree with Mr.

4193
02:51:18,859 --> 02:51:22,025
do that whole thing
was accurate? Correct.

4194
02:51:22,025 --> 02:51:23,629
No exception.

4195
02:51:23,629 --> 02:51:27,109
Binding. We ask
that you accept

4196
02:51:27,109 --> 02:51:32,550
their findings and
standardized questions.

4197
02:51:36,100 --> 02:51:39,689
Comments. Okay.

4198
02:51:39,970 --> 02:51:41,899
This planet we're
going to take

4199
02:51:41,899 --> 02:51:43,129
the testimony we may have.

4200
02:51:43,129 --> 02:51:45,209
We may have questions.

4201
02:51:48,970 --> 02:51:51,350
Whitman, you are
now speaking

4202
02:51:51,350 --> 02:51:54,169
for the staff department,

4203
02:51:54,169 --> 02:51:56,390
I guess? That's correct.

4204
02:51:56,390 --> 02:51:57,650
Cherry blossom only get 5

4205
02:51:57,650 --> 02:51:59,849
min for some reason.

4206
02:52:01,060 --> 02:52:03,770
The department did file

4207
02:52:03,770 --> 02:52:05,270
exceptions in this case,

4208
02:52:05,270 --> 02:52:07,714
there are eight
exceptions.

4209
02:52:07,714 --> 02:52:12,305
And I think exceptions
one through four,

4210
02:52:12,305 --> 02:52:16,739
and also number eight.
Hold for a second.

4211
02:52:16,780 --> 02:52:19,109
Sure.

4212
02:52:29,530 --> 02:52:32,100
What do you have?

4213
02:52:32,800 --> 02:52:36,530
Attachment would
be Appendix B

4214
02:52:36,530 --> 02:52:37,069
is that when we're

4215
02:52:37,069 --> 02:52:40,050
looking at attach
attachments.

4216
02:53:43,000 --> 02:53:45,290
Okay, Alright.

4217
02:53:45,290 --> 02:53:48,170
Roll their mission
should have

4218
02:53:48,170 --> 02:53:50,539
the exceptions from
the department.

4219
02:53:50,539 --> 02:53:52,310
There are two pages
of exceptions.

4220
02:53:52,310 --> 02:53:54,154
There are exceptions.

4221
02:53:54,154 --> 02:53:57,169
Exceptions numbers
one through

4222
02:53:57,169 --> 02:53:59,510
four and number
eight all deal

4223
02:53:59,510 --> 02:54:03,620
with typographical
errors in the hearings.

4224
02:54:03,620 --> 02:54:06,349
Officers proposed
order that

4225
02:54:06,349 --> 02:54:08,884
I don't think there's
any need to go over.

4226
02:54:08,884 --> 02:54:11,269
The exceptions I want
to comment on very

4227
02:54:11,269 --> 02:54:16,624
briefly are exceptions
numbers 56.7.

4228
02:54:16,624 --> 02:54:23,340
Exception number five,
proposes deleting

4229
02:54:23,470 --> 02:54:26,720
approximately one page

4230
02:54:26,720 --> 02:54:28,009
of the hearings officers

4231
02:54:28,009 --> 02:54:33,690
proposed order starting
on page 26, line 21.

4232
02:54:34,870 --> 02:54:37,639
This portion of the
hearings officers

4233
02:54:37,639 --> 02:54:39,710
proposed order deals with

4234
02:54:39,710 --> 02:54:43,279
the interpretive
authority of

4235
02:54:43,279 --> 02:54:45,635
the commission
in the context

4236
02:54:45,635 --> 02:54:47,870
of an enforcement
proceeding.

4237
02:54:47,870 --> 02:54:50,720
This is an issue
that has not been

4238
02:54:50,720 --> 02:54:54,409
litigated in the
courts at this time.

4239
02:54:54,409 --> 02:54:57,650
The hearing
officer's order

4240
02:54:57,650 --> 02:55:00,770
essentially sets
out a framework

4241
02:55:00,770 --> 02:55:03,964
that applies the
same limitations

4242
02:55:03,964 --> 02:55:05,750
to the commission that had

4243
02:55:05,750 --> 02:55:07,595
been applied to Luba.

4244
02:55:07,595 --> 02:55:10,610
In the context
of its review of

4245
02:55:10,610 --> 02:55:14,885
local interpretations,
Local Code provisions,

4246
02:55:14,885 --> 02:55:17,059
It's the department's
recommendation

4247
02:55:17,059 --> 02:55:18,799
that since this
issue has not yet

4248
02:55:18,799 --> 02:55:20,900
been litigated
in this portion

4249
02:55:20,900 --> 02:55:22,670
of the order is
not necessary to

4250
02:55:22,670 --> 02:55:24,350
the decision that the

4251
02:55:24,350 --> 02:55:26,270
commission strike
this portion of

4252
02:55:26,270 --> 02:55:27,890
the proposed order and not

4253
02:55:27,890 --> 02:55:31,200
included in the
adopted final order.

4254
02:55:39,760 --> 02:55:42,050
And just to go into

4255
02:55:42,050 --> 02:55:44,420
a little bit of the
reasoning on that,

4256
02:55:44,420 --> 02:55:47,824
there are specific
statutes limiting

4257
02:55:47,824 --> 02:55:51,394
lupus authority
to interpret,

4258
02:55:51,394 --> 02:55:54,004
local code and
plan provisions.

4259
02:55:54,004 --> 02:55:56,689
There's also a series
of court cases,

4260
02:55:56,689 --> 02:55:59,420
the most famous of which
is the Clark case,

4261
02:55:59,420 --> 02:56:01,925
which again only
apply to Luba.

4262
02:56:01,925 --> 02:56:04,715
There are no
similar statutes or

4263
02:56:04,715 --> 02:56:06,739
court cases applying to

4264
02:56:06,739 --> 02:56:08,150
the Commission
in the context

4265
02:56:08,150 --> 02:56:10,440
of an enforcement
proceeding.

4266
02:56:15,850 --> 02:56:19,669
The second exception
that I want to

4267
02:56:19,669 --> 02:56:23,659
touch on real briefly
is on page 28,

4268
02:56:23,659 --> 02:56:26,749
lines 18 through 25,

4269
02:56:26,749 --> 02:56:29,400
again proposed
for deletion.

4270
02:56:30,670 --> 02:56:32,944
And related to that,

4271
02:56:32,944 --> 02:56:34,940
there are some
deletions proposed

4272
02:56:34,940 --> 02:56:38,810
an exception number
seven on page 29.

4273
02:56:38,810 --> 02:56:43,684
All of these
exceptions 6.7,

4274
02:56:43,684 --> 02:56:47,960
deal with the commission's
interpretation

4275
02:56:47,960 --> 02:56:52,230
of Goal 11 and what it
requires a localities.

4276
02:56:54,100 --> 02:56:58,505
The language suggests
a fairly high degree

4277
02:56:58,505 --> 02:57:00,964
of flexibility on the part

4278
02:57:00,964 --> 02:57:03,499
of local governments as to

4279
02:57:03,499 --> 02:57:05,240
when they have to

4280
02:57:05,240 --> 02:57:08,939
provide public
facilities and services.

4281
02:57:09,700 --> 02:57:11,930
Again, in this case,

4282
02:57:11,930 --> 02:57:14,270
since the hearing officer

4283
02:57:14,270 --> 02:57:15,800
is concluded in
the department

4284
02:57:15,800 --> 02:57:17,270
recommends that
the Commission

4285
02:57:17,270 --> 02:57:18,979
also conclude that there's

4286
02:57:18,979 --> 02:57:20,330
no ambiguity in

4287
02:57:20,330 --> 02:57:23,180
the local code provisions
that you again,

4288
02:57:23,180 --> 02:57:24,560
not reached the issue of

4289
02:57:24,560 --> 02:57:26,750
exactly how much
flexibility

4290
02:57:26,750 --> 02:57:28,700
is allowed under Goal 11,

4291
02:57:28,700 --> 02:57:30,350
and leave that issue to

4292
02:57:30,350 --> 02:57:31,670
a subsequent case that

4293
02:57:31,670 --> 02:57:33,964
presents that
issue squarely.

4294
02:57:33,964 --> 02:57:35,930
So those are those are

4295
02:57:35,930 --> 02:57:37,805
the departments
proposed exceptions.

4296
02:57:37,805 --> 02:57:40,350
I'd be happy to
take any questions.

4297
02:57:46,920 --> 02:57:50,170
We'll take petitioners
final rebuttal.

4298
02:57:50,170 --> 02:57:51,580
Then. We will

4299
02:57:51,580 --> 02:57:54,080
have questions
and deliberation.

4300
02:57:54,360 --> 02:57:56,589
Got all 12 min.
Do you want to

4301
02:57:56,589 --> 02:58:05,980
take it all again?

4302
02:58:05,980 --> 02:58:07,044
Thank you.

4303
02:58:07,044 --> 02:58:17,589
Respond. There's
an interpretation

4304
02:58:17,589 --> 02:58:19,315
of Goal 11.

4305
02:58:19,315 --> 02:58:21,954
I haven't
interpretation Goal 11.

4306
02:58:21,954 --> 02:58:23,440
Lcd see seems to have

4307
02:58:23,440 --> 02:58:25,464
an interpretation Goal 11.

4308
02:58:25,464 --> 02:58:27,759
I'm sure you are
the creators go

4309
02:58:27,759 --> 02:58:30,500
11 and have your
own interpretation.

4310
02:58:31,270 --> 02:58:34,280
I felt that the hearing
officer was saying

4311
02:58:34,280 --> 02:58:37,430
that the county had

4312
02:58:37,430 --> 02:58:39,514
followed it ran correctly.

4313
02:58:39,514 --> 02:58:41,299
But if there was
a problem with

4314
02:58:41,299 --> 02:58:43,670
Goal 11 and the counties

4315
02:58:43,670 --> 02:58:45,275
not following Domo 11,

4316
02:58:45,275 --> 02:58:47,315
then because it's planet
then acknowledged,

4317
02:58:47,315 --> 02:58:49,145
the only way that

4318
02:58:49,145 --> 02:58:51,184
the correction could
be made was was

4319
02:58:51,184 --> 02:58:53,194
true periodic review that

4320
02:58:53,194 --> 02:58:58,190
if the plans acknowledged,

4321
02:58:58,190 --> 02:58:59,659
implementing
Ordinances did

4322
02:58:59,659 --> 02:59:01,549
not actually implement

4323
02:59:01,549 --> 02:59:04,069
the goals than the place

4324
02:59:04,069 --> 02:59:05,089
to address that problem

4325
02:59:05,089 --> 02:59:06,919
within periodic review.

4326
02:59:06,919 --> 02:59:09,289
And it seems to me that

4327
02:59:09,289 --> 02:59:13,219
CDC's exceptions to
the hearings officers

4328
02:59:13,219 --> 02:59:18,810
proposed order R2 to

4329
02:59:20,020 --> 02:59:23,749
take away from to

4330
02:59:23,749 --> 02:59:29,045
divert the county from
having to have it.

4331
02:59:29,045 --> 02:59:32,699
Ordinances changed to
periodically view.

4332
02:59:34,060 --> 02:59:37,474
I think that there's
a big problem here.

4333
02:59:37,474 --> 02:59:39,349
The scale of that map,

4334
02:59:39,349 --> 02:59:42,110
incidentally as 1
" equals 1,000 ft.

4335
02:59:42,110 --> 02:59:45,799
It's not a tiny area
we're talking about it.

4336
02:59:45,799 --> 02:59:48,620
It is a city that
is that is missing.

4337
02:59:48,620 --> 02:59:50,654
I don't know how much

4338
02:59:50,654 --> 02:59:53,229
evidenced you've had
a chance to look at,

4339
02:59:53,229 --> 02:59:57,220
but the population is
growing very quickly.

4340
02:59:57,220 --> 02:59:58,689
The sheriff's department,

4341
02:59:58,689 --> 03:00:00,655
which provides
police services,

4342
03:00:00,655 --> 03:00:02,874
is going down
very quickly.

4343
03:00:02,874 --> 03:00:04,809
They're not
There's no longer

4344
03:00:04,809 --> 03:00:08,305
24-hour coverage in
the entire county.

4345
03:00:08,305 --> 03:00:11,664
Because the 19
patrol that videos

4346
03:00:11,664 --> 03:00:13,465
that cover the
entire county

4347
03:00:13,465 --> 03:00:16,160
aside from within
the city limits.

4348
03:00:16,950 --> 03:00:20,094
They just can't be
spread that thin.

4349
03:00:20,094 --> 03:00:24,350
They cover an area
with 50,000 people.

4350
03:00:24,980 --> 03:00:27,209
There are no parks within

4351
03:00:27,209 --> 03:00:28,830
the urbanizing area.

4352
03:00:28,830 --> 03:00:33,704
The recreation facilities.

4353
03:00:33,704 --> 03:00:36,299
There used to be them.

4354
03:00:36,299 --> 03:00:37,529
They I believe was

4355
03:00:37,529 --> 03:00:40,335
$80,000 worth
per year until

4356
03:00:40,335 --> 03:00:41,760
19 I think it was

4357
03:00:41,760 --> 03:00:45,554
91.94 when they were
eliminated entirely.

4358
03:00:45,554 --> 03:00:48,975
There's no provision
for open space.

4359
03:00:48,975 --> 03:00:51,300
There are no sidewalks,

4360
03:00:51,300 --> 03:00:53,640
practically no sidewalks
connecting any of

4361
03:00:53,640 --> 03:00:55,470
the developments
or connecting

4362
03:00:55,470 --> 03:00:57,134
the city was the
development,

4363
03:00:57,134 --> 03:01:07,510
the land that has been
annexed by the city.

4364
03:01:08,360 --> 03:01:10,770
It's been annexed
frequently

4365
03:01:10,770 --> 03:01:12,360
in a charity stem fashion.

4366
03:01:12,360 --> 03:01:14,490
And in spite
of annexation,

4367
03:01:14,490 --> 03:01:16,049
the roads still
are not urbanized.

4368
03:01:16,049 --> 03:01:18,370
There still are
no sidewalks.

4369
03:01:19,730 --> 03:01:22,379
People like me
that like to walk.

4370
03:01:22,379 --> 03:01:24,674
Or handicapped people that

4371
03:01:24,674 --> 03:01:27,569
have to use a street,
don't pick the light.

4372
03:01:27,569 --> 03:01:32,489
That is,

4373
03:01:32,489 --> 03:01:35,489
is it legal to create as

4374
03:01:35,489 --> 03:01:38,834
a city without,
without surfaces?

4375
03:01:38,834 --> 03:01:41,010
I heard I heard
one room or

4376
03:01:41,010 --> 03:01:43,649
the whole reason
I was encouraged

4377
03:01:43,649 --> 03:01:46,440
to proceed with this
enforcement position and

4378
03:01:46,440 --> 03:01:49,724
I was encouraged by the
by the LCD to do so,

4379
03:01:49,724 --> 03:01:52,919
was that it was

4380
03:01:52,919 --> 03:01:55,470
to get the city and
county to mediate

4381
03:01:55,470 --> 03:01:57,930
and get the city
to eventually

4382
03:01:57,930 --> 03:02:02,070
take over development
approvals.

4383
03:02:02,070 --> 03:02:04,845
But within that area.

4384
03:02:04,845 --> 03:02:09,705
If if the LCD knew
very well that

4385
03:02:09,705 --> 03:02:12,240
services were not required

4386
03:02:12,240 --> 03:02:14,744
until after development
took place,

4387
03:02:14,744 --> 03:02:17,219
why in the world
would they have

4388
03:02:17,219 --> 03:02:19,874
me go through this
enforcement procedure?

4389
03:02:19,874 --> 03:02:22,409
And if it was only as

4390
03:02:22,409 --> 03:02:23,730
a bluff to get
the city and

4391
03:02:23,730 --> 03:02:25,485
the county if he
goes through it.

4392
03:02:25,485 --> 03:02:27,630
Why didn't they give

4393
03:02:27,630 --> 03:02:28,710
me a tremendous amount of

4394
03:02:28,710 --> 03:02:30,435
discouragement
from actually

4395
03:02:30,435 --> 03:02:33,284
filing filing that.

4396
03:02:33,284 --> 03:02:35,999
I did I did suspend it for

4397
03:02:35,999 --> 03:02:38,459
many months for
negotiations and I

4398
03:02:38,459 --> 03:02:39,809
only started
again when I saw

4399
03:02:39,809 --> 03:02:41,909
that negotiations
weren't going

4400
03:02:41,909 --> 03:02:43,260
to provide any of

4401
03:02:43,260 --> 03:02:45,989
the services or weren't
going to provide

4402
03:02:45,989 --> 03:02:48,854
any street services or

4403
03:02:48,854 --> 03:02:51,510
drainage services
or police

4404
03:02:51,510 --> 03:02:54,760
services to existing
development?

4405
03:02:57,080 --> 03:02:59,429
It's been very
clear right from

4406
03:02:59,429 --> 03:03:01,109
the beginning what
I wanted and that

4407
03:03:01,109 --> 03:03:03,959
was city services
provided to

4408
03:03:03,959 --> 03:03:05,639
the development has
been allowed to

4409
03:03:05,639 --> 03:03:08,205
take place over
the last 13 years?

4410
03:03:08,205 --> 03:03:11,069
Never any question
about that.

4411
03:03:11,069 --> 03:03:14,369
The LCD realized
it right in

4412
03:03:14,369 --> 03:03:16,275
the beginning that

4413
03:03:16,275 --> 03:03:18,854
city services were
not required.

4414
03:03:18,854 --> 03:03:21,609
Why was I encouraged
you to this?

4415
03:03:21,710 --> 03:03:24,149
I think that the
hearing officer

4416
03:03:24,149 --> 03:03:25,709
has made a claim
that periodic review

4417
03:03:25,709 --> 03:03:27,000
is to place the place

4418
03:03:27,000 --> 03:03:28,859
for the gift. There
is a problem.

4419
03:03:28,859 --> 03:03:31,035
Periodic reviews a
place to correct it.

4420
03:03:31,035 --> 03:03:33,509
If you agree with him,

4421
03:03:33,509 --> 03:03:35,100
I would hope you
do something

4422
03:03:35,100 --> 03:03:39,884
to to get this problem
corrected there.

4423
03:03:39,884 --> 03:03:43,650
That it all
depends on whether

4424
03:03:43,650 --> 03:03:46,379
Goal 11 allows this sort

4425
03:03:46,379 --> 03:03:48,430
of thing to happen or not.

4426
03:03:49,960 --> 03:03:53,189
Leave that to
you. Thank you.

4427
03:03:54,820 --> 03:03:57,540
Thank you.

4428
03:03:57,970 --> 03:04:03,060
That will close
the oral argument.

4429
03:04:04,060 --> 03:04:08,089
I'm assuming you have
two hats, I guess.

4430
03:04:08,089 --> 03:04:09,590
In terms of serving as

4431
03:04:09,590 --> 03:04:14,090
Art Council
Commission now,

4432
03:04:14,090 --> 03:04:15,680
may wish to question
some of the people that

4433
03:04:15,680 --> 03:04:19,190
testified that any way

4434
03:04:19,190 --> 03:04:23,105
interfering with
the process of

4435
03:04:23,105 --> 03:04:24,590
taking testimony
and getting

4436
03:04:24,590 --> 03:04:25,609
people a chance to rebut

4437
03:04:25,609 --> 03:04:29,040
so forth as we
cross-examined the question.

4438
03:04:29,320 --> 03:04:31,219
Cheater velocity, right.

4439
03:04:31,219 --> 03:04:32,769
Thank you.

4440
03:04:32,769 --> 03:04:34,860
Do you wish to
question any of

4441
03:04:34,860 --> 03:04:37,079
the parties in
this case that you

4442
03:04:37,079 --> 03:04:41,459
should allow the
petitioner or

4443
03:04:41,459 --> 03:04:44,069
an opportunity after
that questioning to at

4444
03:04:44,069 --> 03:04:45,480
least make a
short statement

4445
03:04:45,480 --> 03:04:47,309
to rebut anything
they might say.

4446
03:04:47,309 --> 03:04:53,115
Okay. Okay.

4447
03:04:53,115 --> 03:04:55,209
Where to the table.

4448
03:04:56,390 --> 03:05:00,209
We have just reminding
everybody we have

4449
03:05:00,209 --> 03:05:02,595
the errata sheets,

4450
03:05:02,595 --> 03:05:05,230
probably hearings,
officer.

4451
03:05:05,570 --> 03:05:07,049
And then we have

4452
03:05:07,049 --> 03:05:09,330
some specific
language changes

4453
03:05:09,330 --> 03:05:11,100
proposed by department.

4454
03:05:11,100 --> 03:05:12,150
We don't have

4455
03:05:12,150 --> 03:05:15,075
any other specific
language changes.

4456
03:05:15,075 --> 03:05:16,560
We've got the petitioner

4457
03:05:16,560 --> 03:05:18,539
pushing asking
us to figure

4458
03:05:18,539 --> 03:05:23,019
out some way to have a
different for gluten?

4459
03:05:26,360 --> 03:05:29,739
Maybe not maybe that's
not the right word.

4460
03:05:30,920 --> 03:05:33,449
Would you stepping in
periodic review them

4461
03:05:33,449 --> 03:05:36,039
and we can do that
through this.

4462
03:05:37,280 --> 03:05:38,489
Chair.

4463
03:05:38,489 --> 03:05:40,409
My first question is,

4464
03:05:40,409 --> 03:05:42,179
I don't believe
we can extend

4465
03:05:42,179 --> 03:05:43,559
the other questions

4466
03:05:43,559 --> 03:05:44,730
beyond the rollback or

4467
03:05:44,730 --> 03:05:45,929
testified here as far

4468
03:05:45,929 --> 03:05:46,994
as the legal part of it,

4469
03:05:46,994 --> 03:05:48,899
we might afterward discuss

4470
03:05:48,899 --> 03:05:52,269
a little bit about
periodic review article.

4471
03:05:52,490 --> 03:05:55,409
Once rather contested
case we could talk

4472
03:05:55,409 --> 03:06:00,009
about I think contested
cater to do that.

4473
03:06:00,560 --> 03:06:02,220
You could talk about

4474
03:06:02,220 --> 03:06:03,719
Goal 11, scissoring goal.

4475
03:06:03,719 --> 03:06:05,709
Right now.

4476
03:06:06,290 --> 03:06:08,520
What's our
options? We either

4477
03:06:08,520 --> 03:06:09,539
agree with the
hangs officer.

4478
03:06:09,539 --> 03:06:12,795
We don't know what
our decision.

4479
03:06:12,795 --> 03:06:13,709
No.

4480
03:06:13,709 --> 03:06:15,029
You could also modify

4481
03:06:15,029 --> 03:06:18,220
the hearing officer's
order, proposed order.

4482
03:06:19,670 --> 03:06:22,259
Well, what if disagree

4483
03:06:22,259 --> 03:06:25,030
with the whole thing
that he's done?

4484
03:06:25,340 --> 03:06:28,229
What our council and
generally say as well,

4485
03:06:28,229 --> 03:06:30,300
then you're going to
need to figure out

4486
03:06:30,300 --> 03:06:30,930
some way to come up

4487
03:06:30,930 --> 03:06:33,419
with different
findings of fact.

4488
03:06:33,419 --> 03:06:36,070
For a different
conclusion.

4489
03:06:39,100 --> 03:06:41,659
Why a company who
is more ready,

4490
03:06:41,659 --> 03:06:41,989
Lincoln,

4491
03:06:41,989 --> 03:06:43,459
Lincoln wasn't anything
that could be done.

4492
03:06:43,459 --> 03:06:45,874
And I agree with
the conclusions.

4493
03:06:45,874 --> 03:06:47,600
But seems to me that from

4494
03:06:47,600 --> 03:06:48,874
a standpoint of art,

4495
03:06:48,874 --> 03:06:50,090
looking at
what's happening

4496
03:06:50,090 --> 03:06:51,725
down there, doing
something about it.

4497
03:06:51,725 --> 03:06:53,030
There are some things
that could have

4498
03:06:53,030 --> 03:06:55,294
been done if we
hit requirements.

4499
03:06:55,294 --> 03:06:57,500
As far as this
decision is,

4500
03:06:57,500 --> 03:07:03,769
can I have a question?

4501
03:07:03,769 --> 03:07:07,294
I hear you. Mike.

4502
03:07:07,294 --> 03:07:09,649
I'm on page 31,
your report,

4503
03:07:09,649 --> 03:07:11,855
the last page where
the signature page.

4504
03:07:11,855 --> 03:07:15,455
When A7 Div2 language,

4505
03:07:15,455 --> 03:07:17,090
which has always
been language

4506
03:07:17,090 --> 03:07:18,170
of interest to
me because it's

4507
03:07:18,170 --> 03:07:19,730
the only place where
97 where the word

4508
03:07:19,730 --> 03:07:22,554
concurrent or concurrency
really surfaces.

4509
03:07:22,554 --> 03:07:25,050
And I guess I'd ask
if you could explain

4510
03:07:25,050 --> 03:07:27,119
a bit to me that
last paragraph,

4511
03:07:27,119 --> 03:07:28,814
11 to 15, because

4512
03:07:28,814 --> 03:07:31,545
one alternate
reading and 752,

4513
03:07:31,545 --> 03:07:33,509
which has been offered
by others in the past,

4514
03:07:33,509 --> 03:07:36,195
is that the language
and sub one,

4515
03:07:36,195 --> 03:07:37,739
lands within urban
growth boundary

4516
03:07:37,739 --> 03:07:39,029
shall be available

4517
03:07:39,029 --> 03:07:40,860
for urban development
concurrent

4518
03:07:40,860 --> 03:07:42,629
with the provision
of services.

4519
03:07:42,629 --> 03:07:47,535
Could be that what
better approach

4520
03:07:47,535 --> 03:07:49,709
of making land available
for development

4521
03:07:49,709 --> 03:07:50,939
than approving a specific

4522
03:07:50,939 --> 03:07:52,829
development proposal.

4523
03:07:52,829 --> 03:07:57,554
So I guess I'm
missing well,

4524
03:07:57,554 --> 03:07:58,979
I guess I need
some help getting

4525
03:07:58,979 --> 03:08:00,990
past that alternate
interpretation that

4526
03:08:00,990 --> 03:08:03,990
the approval of a
development proposal is

4527
03:08:03,990 --> 03:08:05,610
making land available for

4528
03:08:05,610 --> 03:08:07,815
urban development
under sub one,

4529
03:08:07,815 --> 03:08:09,420
which in turn requires

4530
03:08:09,420 --> 03:08:13,240
concurrency with key
public facilities.

4531
03:08:13,280 --> 03:08:15,989
There may be others,
but I'm not sure I

4532
03:08:15,989 --> 03:08:18,849
understand how you
got past that.

4533
03:08:19,370 --> 03:08:26,889
Well, the way I
answered that, one,

4534
03:08:38,090 --> 03:08:45,459
when you're using
the word service,

4535
03:08:47,510 --> 03:08:50,205
that's the way
I interpreted.

4536
03:08:50,205 --> 03:08:53,489
Look at subsection
is an exception

4537
03:08:53,489 --> 03:08:58,709
that says that
notwithstanding that section,

4538
03:08:58,709 --> 03:09:03,719
if needed, even
though services maybe

4539
03:09:03,719 --> 03:09:05,610
they're speaking
designated for

4540
03:09:05,610 --> 03:09:07,770
agricultural use until the

4541
03:09:07,770 --> 03:09:10,829
neat is that the
way I interpreted?

4542
03:09:10,829 --> 03:09:13,335
But how does that
get you past

4543
03:09:13,335 --> 03:09:15,000
the fact that approval of

4544
03:09:15,000 --> 03:09:18,840
a specific
development doesn't

4545
03:09:18,840 --> 03:09:20,500
address that at all.

4546
03:09:21,170 --> 03:09:23,969
I guess I guess the
trouble I have is I see

4547
03:09:23,969 --> 03:09:25,905
the logic of petitioners
claim making,

4548
03:09:25,905 --> 03:09:28,094
approving a specific
development proposal

4549
03:09:28,094 --> 03:09:30,390
in advance of
when services are

4550
03:09:30,390 --> 03:09:34,499
available would seem to

4551
03:09:34,499 --> 03:09:37,089
be contrary to sub one.

4552
03:09:37,910 --> 03:09:40,169
And all sub two does,

4553
03:09:40,169 --> 03:09:42,195
is say that we're
lands are not needed.

4554
03:09:42,195 --> 03:09:43,260
You can retain them in

4555
03:09:43,260 --> 03:09:45,465
agricultural or other
non-urban users.

4556
03:09:45,465 --> 03:09:48,930
So I don't understand
why that takes away

4557
03:09:48,930 --> 03:09:50,684
the concurrency
in the wind

4558
03:09:50,684 --> 03:09:52,709
or the timing issue
under sub one.

4559
03:09:52,709 --> 03:09:53,640
And the only reason it's

4560
03:09:53,640 --> 03:09:55,140
important you're
I'm raising is

4561
03:09:55,140 --> 03:09:56,820
because this statute is

4562
03:09:56,820 --> 03:09:58,245
going to be
increasingly important.

4563
03:09:58,245 --> 03:10:01,289
I believe, as people
strive to seek

4564
03:10:01,289 --> 03:10:04,500
a concurrency
requirement in Oregon,

4565
03:10:04,500 --> 03:10:06,645
like we have across the
River to the north.

4566
03:10:06,645 --> 03:10:09,599
I've already seen people
use this and someday

4567
03:10:09,599 --> 03:10:10,889
they'll I don't think
there's any case law

4568
03:10:10,889 --> 03:10:13,274
and statute yet that
I've ever seen.

4569
03:10:13,274 --> 03:10:17,130
And I didn't I did not
do research on this,

4570
03:10:17,130 --> 03:10:19,229
but my recollection
of the reason

4571
03:10:19,229 --> 03:10:22,650
why this dashed red,

4572
03:10:22,650 --> 03:10:27,374
I've forgotten the
name of the case where

4573
03:10:27,374 --> 03:10:37,620
land land

4574
03:10:37,620 --> 03:10:40,899
and whatnot.

4575
03:10:45,770 --> 03:10:50,980
My recollection is that
the statute is clear.

4576
03:10:52,010 --> 03:10:54,405
Services are available.

4577
03:10:54,405 --> 03:10:55,800
It has to be
made available

4578
03:10:55,800 --> 03:11:03,220
for development
right there.

4579
03:11:07,370 --> 03:11:09,359
And I agree with
that and helps.

4580
03:11:09,359 --> 03:11:10,800
Does that make
sense to me?

4581
03:11:10,800 --> 03:11:13,230
But to me, that's an
entirely different issue

4582
03:11:13,230 --> 03:11:15,720
than whether once you make

4583
03:11:15,720 --> 03:11:17,159
a determination
that the land is

4584
03:11:17,159 --> 03:11:19,230
needed for development
by approving

4585
03:11:19,230 --> 03:11:21,179
a specific development
and zoning and not

4586
03:11:21,179 --> 03:11:23,445
per farmer forest or
holdings own purposes,

4587
03:11:23,445 --> 03:11:25,634
but for an R1 or R2 zone

4588
03:11:25,634 --> 03:11:27,450
and then approving
development,

4589
03:11:27,450 --> 03:11:28,500
then it would
seem to me the

4590
03:11:28,500 --> 03:11:30,344
concurrency
requirement kicks in.

4591
03:11:30,344 --> 03:11:32,745
I mean, what sub two
did was say if services

4592
03:11:32,745 --> 03:11:35,249
are available
notwithstanding one,

4593
03:11:35,249 --> 03:11:36,989
where you shall
make land available

4594
03:11:36,989 --> 03:11:38,970
for development when
services are available.

4595
03:11:38,970 --> 03:11:39,749
If on the other hand,

4596
03:11:39,749 --> 03:11:41,159
you can find the
land isn't needed.

4597
03:11:41,159 --> 03:11:42,060
Zoning if you like.

4598
03:11:42,060 --> 03:11:43,169
Wilson Bill has don't put

4599
03:11:43,169 --> 03:11:44,670
an R1 designation on it,

4600
03:11:44,670 --> 03:11:46,964
you're free because
it's not needed yet.

4601
03:11:46,964 --> 03:11:49,499
But where you've zoned R1

4602
03:11:49,499 --> 03:11:52,079
is the only question
I've always had.

4603
03:11:52,079 --> 03:11:54,569
There's an argument
that and again,

4604
03:11:54,569 --> 03:11:58,739
I'm not I'm not it
doesn't I guess I wanted

4605
03:11:58,739 --> 03:11:59,490
to get your sense

4606
03:11:59,490 --> 03:12:00,779
of how you're
reading it because

4607
03:12:00,779 --> 03:12:03,615
I didn't I didn't
get there from that.

4608
03:12:03,615 --> 03:12:05,429
That helps me.

4609
03:12:05,429 --> 03:12:07,289
Well, I have I have always

4610
03:12:07,289 --> 03:12:09,180
thought 11
interpretation is

4611
03:12:09,180 --> 03:12:10,680
that it goes a
long way toward

4612
03:12:10,680 --> 03:12:11,760
imposing the concurrency

4613
03:12:11,760 --> 03:12:12,809
requirement in this state,

4614
03:12:12,809 --> 03:12:14,265
but we've never
had a case on it.

4615
03:12:14,265 --> 03:12:15,614
Now we've pushed it.

4616
03:12:15,614 --> 03:12:17,685
And it's not I agree with

4617
03:12:17,685 --> 03:12:20,564
your analysis on
Goal 11 completely.

4618
03:12:20,564 --> 03:12:22,079
But this has always been

4619
03:12:22,079 --> 03:12:23,969
lurking and when
it showed up here,

4620
03:12:23,969 --> 03:12:25,860
it's the first time
I've ever seen

4621
03:12:25,860 --> 03:12:27,870
any official
interpretation of it as

4622
03:12:27,870 --> 03:12:30,180
we would lend if
we if we give it.

4623
03:12:30,180 --> 03:12:31,019
So all I really wanted to

4624
03:12:31,019 --> 03:12:31,979
do was get a sense
of where you're

4625
03:12:31,979 --> 03:12:34,829
going and that
helps them a bit.

4626
03:12:34,829 --> 03:12:36,209
But it will come

4627
03:12:36,209 --> 03:12:37,229
up down the road
again today.

4628
03:12:37,229 --> 03:12:38,294
But wait.

4629
03:12:38,294 --> 03:12:40,890
You the commission doesn't

4630
03:12:40,890 --> 03:12:42,509
agree with the
interpretation when it

4631
03:12:42,509 --> 03:12:43,830
means that we should be

4632
03:12:43,830 --> 03:12:45,539
the same issue that

4633
03:12:45,539 --> 03:12:47,895
the Department raised
and their objections.

4634
03:12:47,895 --> 03:12:49,110
Let's not make

4635
03:12:49,110 --> 03:12:51,120
an interpretation
of something.

4636
03:12:51,120 --> 03:12:52,529
But I don't really know.

4637
03:12:52,529 --> 03:12:54,420
I think it was raised
by the petitioner.

4638
03:12:54,420 --> 03:12:56,009
I think we have
to find them.

4639
03:12:56,009 --> 03:12:57,555
And if you think it's
a weak response,

4640
03:12:57,555 --> 03:12:58,859
do you think the
response though

4641
03:12:58,859 --> 03:13:00,209
doesn't go to it,

4642
03:13:00,209 --> 03:13:03,180
then we need to fix
that or only a majority

4643
03:13:03,180 --> 03:13:04,439
of the condition
where agree with me.

4644
03:13:04,439 --> 03:13:06,419
And secondly, if
I pushed that,

4645
03:13:06,419 --> 03:13:08,245
I'm not inclined to push.

4646
03:13:08,245 --> 03:13:09,689
And what I really
wanted to do was get

4647
03:13:09,689 --> 03:13:10,830
the benefit of Mike's
thinking well,

4648
03:13:10,830 --> 03:13:12,074
but more than the
vignette, this

4649
03:13:12,074 --> 03:13:14,220
is interpreting
what it means.

4650
03:13:14,220 --> 03:13:16,724
It does not make occur.

4651
03:13:16,724 --> 03:13:19,679
Oh, no, no. I believe
it also isn't binding

4652
03:13:19,679 --> 03:13:20,819
on the Court of Appeals

4653
03:13:20,819 --> 03:13:22,049
or anybody else
down the road,

4654
03:13:22,049 --> 03:13:23,880
which has helped kind

4655
03:13:23,880 --> 03:13:25,529
of thing that people know.

4656
03:13:25,529 --> 03:13:26,880
And again, I'm not,

4657
03:13:26,880 --> 03:13:29,850
I'm not pushing it
right now nor alive.

4658
03:13:29,850 --> 03:13:31,379
Get the benefit of Mike's

4659
03:13:31,379 --> 03:13:33,060
thinking beyond
those two sentences.

4660
03:13:33,060 --> 03:13:34,679
So interesting.

4661
03:13:34,679 --> 03:13:37,319
But it isn't I think
correct me if I'm wrong,

4662
03:13:37,319 --> 03:13:38,609
either either the
hearings officer

4663
03:13:38,609 --> 03:13:40,155
or borrow Council,

4664
03:13:40,155 --> 03:13:42,780
any rendering we
give events that you

4665
03:13:42,780 --> 03:13:45,675
didn't binding on the
courts, or frankly,

4666
03:13:45,675 --> 03:13:48,300
wouldn't be binding
on the Court of

4667
03:13:48,300 --> 03:13:51,119
Appeals or Luba
Supreme Court or

4668
03:13:51,119 --> 03:13:54,495
you in a case with

4669
03:13:54,495 --> 03:13:59,020
a different
facts situation.

4670
03:14:00,380 --> 03:14:02,819
However, I can hear people

4671
03:14:02,819 --> 03:14:06,569
saying it's going to

4672
03:14:06,569 --> 03:14:08,459
regard as precedent
one way or another,

4673
03:14:08,459 --> 03:14:10,845
whether people legally

4674
03:14:10,845 --> 03:14:12,764
flavors precedent or not.

4675
03:14:12,764 --> 03:14:15,374
Well, the other thing
I'd offer it again,

4676
03:14:15,374 --> 03:14:16,589
P thrust of the
argument is

4677
03:14:16,589 --> 03:14:17,864
made below go left.

4678
03:14:17,864 --> 03:14:19,665
And I don't think
I personally,

4679
03:14:19,665 --> 03:14:21,999
I don't disagree at all.

4680
03:14:22,670 --> 03:14:25,664
This has been kind of
a tangential issues

4681
03:14:25,664 --> 03:14:27,879
lurking out there.

4682
03:14:31,250 --> 03:14:35,235
Without much more.

4683
03:14:35,235 --> 03:14:37,200
Analysis is to the

4684
03:14:37,200 --> 03:14:38,940
legislative
history, et cetera.

4685
03:14:38,940 --> 03:14:41,530
I'm not implying

4686
03:14:41,900 --> 03:14:43,950
that legislative
history thing

4687
03:14:43,950 --> 03:14:45,150
that I always I
always smile.

4688
03:14:45,150 --> 03:14:46,229
I hear that because we

4689
03:14:46,229 --> 03:14:48,210
had a Resources
Commission.

4690
03:14:48,210 --> 03:14:50,730
We had the Supreme
Court giving us

4691
03:14:50,730 --> 03:14:52,679
a lesson on
legislative history.

4692
03:14:52,679 --> 03:14:54,495
And that was.

4693
03:14:54,495 --> 03:14:56,670
I don't care what the
legislative history is.

4694
03:14:56,670 --> 03:14:58,049
When I read the words.

4695
03:14:58,049 --> 03:14:59,609
This is what they say.

4696
03:14:59,609 --> 03:15:04,184
Let's live if they
wrote it wrong.

4697
03:15:04,184 --> 03:15:06,419
Well, legislative
history only

4698
03:15:06,419 --> 03:15:08,460
as a role-play if
it's ambiguous.

4699
03:15:08,460 --> 03:15:12,280
And there's clearly
less than clear.

4700
03:15:12,350 --> 03:15:17,310
So it's a loophole
big enough to drive

4701
03:15:17,310 --> 03:15:24,120
a truck loophole and
could be requirement.

4702
03:15:24,120 --> 03:15:27,160
I mean, if you ignore it.

4703
03:15:31,880 --> 03:15:34,379
Again, I'm putting
everything Richard

4704
03:15:34,379 --> 03:15:37,529
in an awkward position.

4705
03:15:37,529 --> 03:15:39,720
If we wanted to
hear a discussion

4706
03:15:39,720 --> 03:15:40,799
of this, would be
the proper thing,

4707
03:15:40,799 --> 03:15:42,150
would be to ask
all the parties

4708
03:15:42,150 --> 03:15:44,159
to give us their
comments on this point?

4709
03:15:44,159 --> 03:15:45,674
I think it would be.

4710
03:15:45,674 --> 03:15:46,560
Okay.

4711
03:15:46,560 --> 03:15:47,610
Why don't we go in

4712
03:15:47,610 --> 03:15:48,974
the same order
that we heard.

4713
03:15:48,974 --> 03:15:54,645
People were like, What
do you want to add?

4714
03:15:54,645 --> 03:15:56,279
Let me take one more step

4715
03:15:56,279 --> 03:15:58,380
and explain what shirt.

4716
03:15:58,380 --> 03:16:01,319
But then I started

4717
03:16:01,319 --> 03:16:04,619
by saying the purpose
of the statute.

4718
03:16:04,619 --> 03:16:14,864
The problem lands
with what section?

4719
03:16:14,864 --> 03:16:16,990
One of that statue.

4720
03:16:17,210 --> 03:16:22,290
You provide the land and

4721
03:16:22,290 --> 03:16:26,910
so you must make
that available.

4722
03:16:26,910 --> 03:16:30,359
And that's what I read
in the first section.

4723
03:16:30,359 --> 03:16:32,894
Other way around.
Okay, that helps.

4724
03:16:32,894 --> 03:16:34,215
Then I see where
you're going.

4725
03:16:34,215 --> 03:16:35,820
That puts a lot of meat

4726
03:16:35,820 --> 03:16:37,365
on those two
sentences for me.

4727
03:16:37,365 --> 03:16:40,394
You come at it from
a different dresses.

4728
03:16:40,394 --> 03:16:41,969
What you must do with

4729
03:16:41,969 --> 03:16:43,679
regard to your
currency or services,

4730
03:16:43,679 --> 03:16:46,500
it just wasn't addressed.

4731
03:16:46,500 --> 03:16:49,635
So your read of it again
is as you just said,

4732
03:16:49,635 --> 03:16:52,409
it's the extent to which

4733
03:16:52,409 --> 03:16:54,464
development
shall be allowed

4734
03:16:54,464 --> 03:16:56,609
when services are present.

4735
03:16:56,609 --> 03:16:58,559
Modified by
subsection two,

4736
03:16:58,559 --> 03:16:59,699
where the absence of need

4737
03:16:59,699 --> 03:17:01,350
means you don't have
to comply with one.

4738
03:17:01,350 --> 03:17:02,340
Well, that helps a lot.

4739
03:17:02,340 --> 03:17:03,600
That's where I was
going with my question.

4740
03:17:03,600 --> 03:17:04,635
I wanted to do that.

4741
03:17:04,635 --> 03:17:06,179
And that that gives me

4742
03:17:06,179 --> 03:17:08,800
a lot more sense of this.

4743
03:17:11,150 --> 03:17:15,195
Okay? Alright. Mr. Ramsey,

4744
03:17:15,195 --> 03:17:16,979
who is next to your

4745
03:17:16,979 --> 03:17:18,059
next do you
wish to comment

4746
03:17:18,059 --> 03:17:20,109
on this point at all?

4747
03:17:38,090 --> 03:17:41,489
197.752?

4748
03:17:41,489 --> 03:17:44,655
I I thought it was clear.

4749
03:17:44,655 --> 03:17:48,734
I think from Mr. five
for interpretation.

4750
03:17:48,734 --> 03:17:50,279
I mean, it seems pretty

4751
03:17:50,279 --> 03:17:51,899
clear that way
and I was quite

4752
03:17:51,899 --> 03:17:53,910
surprised to

4753
03:17:53,910 --> 03:17:57,489
hear the hearing
officer's interpretation.

4754
03:17:57,890 --> 03:17:59,759
I still don't really

4755
03:17:59,759 --> 03:18:00,989
understand even
though I read it

4756
03:18:00,989 --> 03:18:03,660
and read his interpretation
many, many times.

4757
03:18:03,660 --> 03:18:06,630
But it seems to

4758
03:18:06,630 --> 03:18:10,049
me that in this
case, at least land,

4759
03:18:10,049 --> 03:18:12,990
land within an urban
growth boundary

4760
03:18:12,990 --> 03:18:14,249
has been available for

4761
03:18:14,249 --> 03:18:20,280
urban development
without provision

4762
03:18:20,280 --> 03:18:22,450
of key urban services.

4763
03:18:25,960 --> 03:18:28,189
I don't know if that
has any relevance,

4764
03:18:28,189 --> 03:18:29,509
but it didn't seem
to matter whether

4765
03:18:29,509 --> 03:18:31,790
the services or they're

4766
03:18:31,790 --> 03:18:34,430
not available

4767
03:18:34,430 --> 03:18:35,315
for urban development

4768
03:18:35,315 --> 03:18:36,994
concurrently with service,

4769
03:18:36,994 --> 03:18:40,385
provision of key urban
services and also

4770
03:18:40,385 --> 03:18:45,109
concurrently
doesn't seem to

4771
03:18:45,109 --> 03:18:47,255
matter whether
their services.

4772
03:18:47,255 --> 03:18:53,840
And also the main thing
is that it doesn't

4773
03:18:53,840 --> 03:18:56,720
seem so surfaces has
to be provided at

4774
03:18:56,720 --> 03:18:58,730
anytime because if they

4775
03:18:58,730 --> 03:19:00,140
can be provided after,

4776
03:19:00,140 --> 03:19:03,155
there's no limit no
time limit on after.

4777
03:19:03,155 --> 03:19:05,090
And if if the

4778
03:19:05,090 --> 03:19:06,920
current negotiations
between the city and

4779
03:19:06,920 --> 03:19:09,319
the county or unsuccessful

4780
03:19:09,319 --> 03:19:11,809
In the city
doesn't take over

4781
03:19:11,809 --> 03:19:15,139
the development
approvals or

4782
03:19:15,139 --> 03:19:16,219
even if it does take

4783
03:19:16,219 --> 03:19:17,329
over the development
approval,

4784
03:19:17,329 --> 03:19:19,264
there was no
requirement apparently,

4785
03:19:19,264 --> 03:19:21,214
for services to
be provided.

4786
03:19:21,214 --> 03:19:22,429
I just wanted
to hear though,

4787
03:19:22,429 --> 03:19:24,049
on this particular point.

4788
03:19:24,049 --> 03:19:26,670
You've made that
point before.

4789
03:19:27,190 --> 03:19:28,985
The county.

4790
03:19:28,985 --> 03:19:31,940
Like to make
any comments on

4791
03:19:31,940 --> 03:19:33,360
this

4792
03:19:46,270 --> 03:19:47,419
list

4793
03:19:47,419 --> 03:19:47,749
that shows

4794
03:19:47,749 --> 03:19:52,329
me not want to
say too much.

4795
03:19:52,329 --> 03:19:55,890
Happy, but as far as
Mr. vipers comments,

4796
03:19:55,890 --> 03:19:57,899
contemplating that,
I would tend to

4797
03:19:57,899 --> 03:20:00,000
agree with the way Mr.
Olsen explained it,

4798
03:20:00,000 --> 03:20:01,920
that you got
to want to buy

4799
03:20:01,920 --> 03:20:04,139
stuff one terms available

4800
03:20:04,139 --> 03:20:06,379
stuff one probably mean

4801
03:20:06,379 --> 03:20:09,854
the same thing as
designated stuff to both be

4802
03:20:09,854 --> 03:20:13,530
having the property
or land with

4803
03:20:13,530 --> 03:20:15,240
their growth boundary
Shelby zone or

4804
03:20:15,240 --> 03:20:19,980
root development when
these become available.

4805
03:20:19,980 --> 03:20:21,989
But step one is you can

4806
03:20:21,989 --> 03:20:23,460
maintain them
in agricultural

4807
03:20:23,460 --> 03:20:25,510
or don't ankles?

4808
03:20:25,520 --> 03:20:28,320
I don't think I don
t think one I'd

4809
03:20:28,320 --> 03:20:31,245
like to provide you
with the concurrency.

4810
03:20:31,245 --> 03:20:34,389
Finite State
of Washington.

4811
03:20:40,510 --> 03:20:42,960
Okay.

4812
03:20:43,510 --> 03:20:47,494
English language.
One thing I'd add,

4813
03:20:47,494 --> 03:20:50,839
if we'd discussion on,

4814
03:20:50,839 --> 03:20:53,255
I need to hear
from the apartment

4815
03:20:53,255 --> 03:20:56,209
or the home home village,

4816
03:20:56,209 --> 03:20:58,280
but to make a
comment, okay.

4817
03:20:58,280 --> 03:20:59,165
Yeah, sure. Yeah.

4818
03:20:59,165 --> 03:21:02,189
You're certainly

4819
03:21:07,330 --> 03:21:09,859
record on Leon Oliver,

4820
03:21:09,859 --> 03:21:12,199
president the county

4821
03:21:12,199 --> 03:21:13,730
Home Builders Association.

4822
03:21:13,730 --> 03:21:16,209
I've had a bit
of difficulty in

4823
03:21:16,209 --> 03:21:18,930
establishing in
designing developments

4824
03:21:18,930 --> 03:21:21,419
what an urban
level of services.

4825
03:21:21,419 --> 03:21:23,969
And I wonder
if we're going

4826
03:21:23,969 --> 03:21:25,679
down a legal trial
here that might

4827
03:21:25,679 --> 03:21:27,719
or might not be

4828
03:21:27,719 --> 03:21:30,374
identifiable where the
rubber hits the road.

4829
03:21:30,374 --> 03:21:32,279
What we're trying
to do is just

4830
03:21:32,279 --> 03:21:34,725
interpret one
piece of the ORS.

4831
03:21:34,725 --> 03:21:37,379
Oh, one other thing
is that we may have

4832
03:21:37,379 --> 03:21:38,580
an urban level of service

4833
03:21:38,580 --> 03:21:40,875
depending on how
bad the fly.

4834
03:21:40,875 --> 03:21:44,595
I don't think that's
been addressed. Yeah.

4835
03:21:44,595 --> 03:21:47,115
That was the local
interpretation.

4836
03:21:47,115 --> 03:21:48,540
Yeah, it does say
that in accordance

4837
03:21:48,540 --> 03:21:50,040
with locally
adopted standards,

4838
03:21:50,040 --> 03:21:53,339
so okay.

4839
03:21:53,339 --> 03:21:53,909
Okay.

4840
03:21:53,909 --> 03:21:54,389
Thank you.

4841
03:21:54,389 --> 03:21:55,829
Because we've got a
chicken and egg problem.

4842
03:21:55,829 --> 03:21:58,539
Here's what
Merck debating.

4843
03:22:03,050 --> 03:22:04,320
Richard,

4844
03:22:04,320 --> 03:22:07,050
you want to respond
to the department on?

4845
03:22:07,050 --> 03:22:08,310
I would like to respond

4846
03:22:08,310 --> 03:22:09,464
briefly for the
department.

4847
03:22:09,464 --> 03:22:12,194
I think the Department
agrees with

4848
03:22:12,194 --> 03:22:15,239
Mr. Holsteins reading
of the statute.

4849
03:22:15,239 --> 03:22:17,520
I think the statute

4850
03:22:17,520 --> 03:22:20,204
is actually quite
clear in sub one

4851
03:22:20,204 --> 03:22:22,574
that what it requires
is that when

4852
03:22:22,574 --> 03:22:25,680
key urban facilities are

4853
03:22:25,680 --> 03:22:28,589
present and the land

4854
03:22:28,589 --> 03:22:30,734
is within an urban
growth boundary,

4855
03:22:30,734 --> 03:22:32,354
then it has to be made

4856
03:22:32,354 --> 03:22:34,514
available for
urban development.

4857
03:22:34,514 --> 03:22:35,910
And that's all
that it says.

4858
03:22:35,910 --> 03:22:38,145
I think trying to read

4859
03:22:38,145 --> 03:22:40,860
a concurrency the
other way is reading

4860
03:22:40,860 --> 03:22:43,349
something that
when you look

4861
03:22:43,349 --> 03:22:46,515
at 1.2 together simply
isn't in the statute.

4862
03:22:46,515 --> 03:22:48,840
I have not
looked at any of

4863
03:22:48,840 --> 03:22:51,224
the legislative history
on this statute.

4864
03:22:51,224 --> 03:22:53,729
My memory of the adoption

4865
03:22:53,729 --> 03:22:55,740
of the statute is
pretty much the same

4866
03:22:55,740 --> 03:22:57,540
as mikes that it
was responding to

4867
03:22:57,540 --> 03:23:00,524
that particular court case

4868
03:23:00,524 --> 03:23:02,339
dealing with the FU zoning

4869
03:23:02,339 --> 03:23:04,694
within urban lands.

4870
03:23:04,694 --> 03:23:07,185
So that's that's
the first comment.

4871
03:23:07,185 --> 03:23:10,080
The second comment is that

4872
03:23:10,080 --> 03:23:11,910
the scope relates to

4873
03:23:11,910 --> 03:23:14,970
the scope of this
particular proceeding.

4874
03:23:14,970 --> 03:23:18,014
I'm under an enforcement

4875
03:23:18,014 --> 03:23:20,069
proceeding for
a pattern or

4876
03:23:20,069 --> 03:23:23,625
practice of violation of

4877
03:23:23,625 --> 03:23:26,070
local comprehensive plan

4878
03:23:26,070 --> 03:23:28,034
or land use regulations.

4879
03:23:28,034 --> 03:23:30,180
There's at least an
issue here whether

4880
03:23:30,180 --> 03:23:32,069
the commission
even need to

4881
03:23:32,069 --> 03:23:34,875
reach the question or

4882
03:23:34,875 --> 03:23:37,004
has the authority to
reach the question

4883
03:23:37,004 --> 03:23:40,079
of compliance
with compliance

4884
03:23:40,079 --> 03:23:43,360
of those decisions
with state statute.

4885
03:23:44,810 --> 03:23:47,879
That then take you to say

4886
03:23:47,879 --> 03:23:51,509
your amending your No.

4887
03:23:51,509 --> 03:23:52,739
I can see like
this section

4888
03:23:52,739 --> 03:23:54,239
taken out. No, I wouldn't.

4889
03:23:54,239 --> 03:23:55,919
I think it's a good
idea to leave this

4890
03:23:55,919 --> 03:23:59,820
in since Mr. dub

4891
03:23:59,820 --> 03:24:02,700
has raised the
issue in the case,

4892
03:24:02,700 --> 03:24:04,110
I think it's a
good idea to

4893
03:24:04,110 --> 03:24:06,239
leave this particular
provision in.

4894
03:24:06,239 --> 03:24:11,070
But I bet that one thing

4895
03:24:11,070 --> 03:24:14,445
I'd add is the hearings
officers response.

4896
03:24:14,445 --> 03:24:16,740
Maybe I'd just
the language

4897
03:24:16,740 --> 03:24:17,819
didn't hit me that way

4898
03:24:17,819 --> 03:24:19,380
when I hear your
response now in

4899
03:24:19,380 --> 03:24:21,330
that reading and I go
back and read it again,

4900
03:24:21,330 --> 03:24:23,160
it comes across but
also occurred to me to

4901
03:24:23,160 --> 03:24:23,879
go to the title of

4902
03:24:23,879 --> 03:24:25,695
that subsection
in statute.

4903
03:24:25,695 --> 03:24:28,319
And when you go, which
isn't quoted here,

4904
03:24:28,319 --> 03:24:30,329
when you go to the
statute as every statute,

4905
03:24:30,329 --> 03:24:32,265
every section
one of the 7752

4906
03:24:32,265 --> 03:24:34,500
has a little title to it.

4907
03:24:34,500 --> 03:24:35,399
And if you look at it,

4908
03:24:35,399 --> 03:24:37,155
it reinforces
my conclusion.

4909
03:24:37,155 --> 03:24:40,274
Lands available for
urban growth boundary

4910
03:24:40,274 --> 03:24:42,374
or for urban development

4911
03:24:42,374 --> 03:24:43,890
is what isn't quoted here,

4912
03:24:43,890 --> 03:24:46,050
but it's what precedes
want subsections 1.2,

4913
03:24:46,050 --> 03:24:48,870
which further reinforces
your interpretation.

4914
03:24:48,870 --> 03:24:50,729
So I'm happy with that.

4915
03:24:50,729 --> 03:24:51,870
And actually I'm
ready to make

4916
03:24:51,870 --> 03:24:56,399
a motion which would be
to move the adoption

4917
03:24:56,399 --> 03:24:59,229
of the hearings officer
report together with

4918
03:24:59,240 --> 03:25:02,399
the errata sheet that

4919
03:25:02,399 --> 03:25:04,770
was handed out
deprotonated April 17th,

4920
03:25:04,770 --> 03:25:08,169
with one through
14 items on it.

4921
03:25:09,080 --> 03:25:11,670
I believe in its
entirety needs to

4922
03:25:11,670 --> 03:25:14,340
be adopted together with

4923
03:25:14,340 --> 03:25:18,690
as well the the exceptions

4924
03:25:18,690 --> 03:25:20,519
offered by the Department

4925
03:25:20,519 --> 03:25:23,610
of Justice as outlined.

4926
03:25:23,610 --> 03:25:25,635
Staff burden.

4927
03:25:25,635 --> 03:25:28,390
The LCD. The LCD

4928
03:25:28,880 --> 03:25:33,659
the LCD has outlined
in the middle,

4929
03:25:33,659 --> 03:25:36,300
including the deletion of

4930
03:25:36,300 --> 03:25:39,450
language is detailed
in the document.

4931
03:25:39,450 --> 03:25:42,900
Second for discussion.

4932
03:25:42,900 --> 03:25:44,880
If I could Mr.
chair, just briefly,

4933
03:25:44,880 --> 03:25:46,290
I think the motion
should also

4934
03:25:46,290 --> 03:25:50,219
include specific
delegation to Mr.

4935
03:25:50,219 --> 03:25:51,990
Banner, making
sure that he has

4936
03:25:51,990 --> 03:25:53,130
the authority to sign

4937
03:25:53,130 --> 03:25:55,124
this order so we
can get at tied up.

4938
03:25:55,124 --> 03:25:58,050
We need to make those
those corrections

4939
03:25:58,050 --> 03:26:00,629
and get the order out
as soon as possible.

4940
03:26:00,629 --> 03:26:02,850
Certainly amend my

4941
03:26:02,850 --> 03:26:04,904
Authority for
him to do what?

4942
03:26:04,904 --> 03:26:06,509
To sign.

4943
03:26:06,509 --> 03:26:09,000
The final order requires

4944
03:26:09,000 --> 03:26:11,340
right now drafted with
me as signing it.

4945
03:26:11,340 --> 03:26:13,319
That you're wanting
to change them.

4946
03:26:13,319 --> 03:26:14,895
Yeah, that's correct.

4947
03:26:14,895 --> 03:26:15,674
Okay.

4948
03:26:15,674 --> 03:26:17,190
So I've modified my motion

4949
03:26:17,190 --> 03:26:18,810
to make those changes

4950
03:26:18,810 --> 03:26:20,250
to allow the
director to both

4951
03:26:20,250 --> 03:26:21,930
make the changes and
execute the order.

4952
03:26:21,930 --> 03:26:27,825
Second degrees. Okay.

4953
03:26:27,825 --> 03:26:35,115
Discussion. That case.

4954
03:26:35,115 --> 03:26:36,254
All those in favor Aye.

4955
03:26:36,254 --> 03:26:36,690
Aye.

4956
03:26:36,690 --> 03:26:37,304
Aye.

4957
03:26:37,304 --> 03:26:38,550
Opposed no.

4958
03:26:38,550 --> 03:26:39,839
Staining.

4959
03:26:39,839 --> 03:26:49,260
Unanimous. It seems to

4960
03:26:49,260 --> 03:26:51,359
me that the basic
problem here was that in

4961
03:26:51,359 --> 03:26:55,680
the acknowledged the
grants pads plan,

4962
03:26:55,680 --> 03:26:57,525
we have taken
care of that.

4963
03:26:57,525 --> 03:26:59,430
We could have made

4964
03:26:59,430 --> 03:27:00,989
I'm kinda data and then

4965
03:27:00,989 --> 03:27:02,204
of course there's
a B happened,

4966
03:27:02,204 --> 03:27:04,845
happened at the next
periodic reviews.

4967
03:27:04,845 --> 03:27:07,304
Least require them for

4968
03:27:07,304 --> 03:27:08,970
this development
is out there and

4969
03:27:08,970 --> 03:27:10,770
not to do the services,

4970
03:27:10,770 --> 03:27:11,849
but at least they require

4971
03:27:11,849 --> 03:27:14,700
the developer to
repair the like

4972
03:27:14,700 --> 03:27:16,950
the road system
that goes between

4973
03:27:16,950 --> 03:27:18,659
developers can do this

4974
03:27:18,659 --> 03:27:19,949
and they do this
other places.

4975
03:27:19,949 --> 03:27:20,489
Why?

4976
03:27:20,489 --> 03:27:22,440
Why do we let them have

4977
03:27:22,440 --> 03:27:23,850
a chiropractor
out here and then

4978
03:27:23,850 --> 03:27:25,979
a curbs and gutters

4979
03:27:25,979 --> 03:27:27,884
when you get in
time to develop.

4980
03:27:27,884 --> 03:27:30,150
I think you're right
vector, it's because of

4981
03:27:30,150 --> 03:27:33,270
the knowledge
plan and I would

4982
03:27:33,270 --> 03:27:34,440
assume probably
the even the

4983
03:27:34,440 --> 03:27:35,820
urban service
agreement between

4984
03:27:35,820 --> 03:27:37,079
the county and the
city would have

4985
03:27:37,079 --> 03:27:38,549
some play an active role.

4986
03:27:38,549 --> 03:27:40,049
That's what's
supposed says

4987
03:27:40,049 --> 03:27:41,220
service agreement says you

4988
03:27:41,220 --> 03:27:41,970
don't have to do that.

4989
03:27:41,970 --> 03:27:43,230
Right. But does
raise the question

4990
03:27:43,230 --> 03:27:44,850
since we're in Goal 11,

4991
03:27:44,850 --> 03:27:47,680
whether we want to

4992
03:27:47,870 --> 03:27:51,150
make an interpretation
of Goal 11 somehow or

4993
03:27:51,150 --> 03:27:53,499
indicate low-level
means that

4994
03:27:53,840 --> 03:27:59,740
maybe not concurrent
but afterwards.

4995
03:28:00,230 --> 03:28:03,420
So it has to
be a timeline,

4996
03:28:03,420 --> 03:28:05,219
has to be a
reasonable period

4997
03:28:05,219 --> 03:28:06,960
of time to
provide services.

4998
03:28:06,960 --> 03:28:08,159
I don't know
if it includes

4999
03:28:08,159 --> 03:28:09,975
all the services
he lifted.

5000
03:28:09,975 --> 03:28:11,999
But remember,

5001
03:28:11,999 --> 03:28:14,640
I don't think any of
you was on the girdle,

5002
03:28:14,640 --> 03:28:17,190
but it's worth reading,

5003
03:28:17,190 --> 03:28:19,020
remembering what
it was intended to

5004
03:28:19,020 --> 03:28:22,540
do and then reflect
upon what it isn't.

5005
03:28:22,850 --> 03:28:25,514
It's intended to require

5006
03:28:25,514 --> 03:28:28,904
local governments to
plan public facilities.

5007
03:28:28,904 --> 03:28:31,754
It isn't intended as

5008
03:28:31,754 --> 03:28:33,719
an urban growth
to management

5009
03:28:33,719 --> 03:28:35,700
direction device.

5010
03:28:35,700 --> 03:28:40,260
And here we are now
22 years later,

5011
03:28:40,260 --> 03:28:42,419
watching development
happened

5012
03:28:42,419 --> 03:28:44,730
inside urban families in

5013
03:28:44,730 --> 03:28:46,680
a relatively
haphazard area

5014
03:28:46,680 --> 03:28:48,960
and haphazard manner
in many areas.

5015
03:28:48,960 --> 03:28:50,550
And we wish when

5016
03:28:50,550 --> 03:28:52,679
I'm looking at the
Marion County,

5017
03:28:52,679 --> 03:28:54,899
some of us wish
that there was

5018
03:28:54,899 --> 03:28:57,209
more to one of the goals,

5019
03:28:57,209 --> 03:29:00,075
maybe not go 11, but
one of the goals.

5020
03:29:00,075 --> 03:29:02,669
We, you remember some

5021
03:29:02,669 --> 03:29:04,619
of you who are on the
commission when we

5022
03:29:04,619 --> 03:29:06,600
did the urban growth
management standing

5023
03:29:06,600 --> 03:29:09,570
at the end of the
really nice things.

5024
03:29:09,570 --> 03:29:12,150
One of the recommendations
that was on

5025
03:29:12,150 --> 03:29:15,914
your plate back
in 1991, I guess,

5026
03:29:15,914 --> 03:29:18,480
was whether there
ought to be

5027
03:29:18,480 --> 03:29:20,309
an adequate public
facilities were

5028
03:29:20,309 --> 03:29:22,935
focused public
investment requirement.

5029
03:29:22,935 --> 03:29:25,919
And the world went
crazy as soon

5030
03:29:25,919 --> 03:29:28,739
as anybody on
this commission

5031
03:29:28,739 --> 03:29:30,509
suggested that that
might be a good thing to

5032
03:29:30,509 --> 03:29:33,449
explore because It is so

5033
03:29:33,449 --> 03:29:34,919
difficult for
local governments

5034
03:29:34,919 --> 03:29:37,125
to figure out
how to pay for

5035
03:29:37,125 --> 03:29:39,480
the public facilities
and services they

5036
03:29:39,480 --> 03:29:42,254
need inside city limits.

5037
03:29:42,254 --> 03:29:44,369
First of all, I haven't
got that figured out.

5038
03:29:44,369 --> 03:29:47,549
And then inside
urban Goeth man.

5039
03:29:47,549 --> 03:29:51,510
And you're not going
to find it in gold 11.

5040
03:29:51,510 --> 03:29:52,709
Maybe.

5041
03:29:52,709 --> 03:29:56,789
We need to, you need to
put it there. You go.

5042
03:29:56,789 --> 03:29:59,489
14. But it isn't there.

5043
03:29:59,489 --> 03:30:03,330
Now, remember what
the question is.

5044
03:30:03,330 --> 03:30:04,664
Should, shouldn't
be there.

5045
03:30:04,664 --> 03:30:05,760
Or maybe

5046
03:30:05,760 --> 03:30:08,024
it's something that
we're going to have ln.

5047
03:30:08,024 --> 03:30:10,499
I didn't remember.
John Kelly.

5048
03:30:10,499 --> 03:30:11,699
I'm just going to
run out of town

5049
03:30:11,699 --> 03:30:13,170
on a rail for

5050
03:30:13,170 --> 03:30:15,270
his As idea of

5051
03:30:15,270 --> 03:30:17,985
focused public
investments, opera.

5052
03:30:17,985 --> 03:30:19,290
But an orderly
development to

5053
03:30:19,290 --> 03:30:20,640
me is mean that you've got

5054
03:30:20,640 --> 03:30:21,959
a sewer that you've got if

5055
03:30:21,959 --> 03:30:23,340
you've got a
development all here,

5056
03:30:23,340 --> 03:30:24,615
you've got to run
the sewer to it.

5057
03:30:24,615 --> 03:30:25,875
You may have to run it.

5058
03:30:25,875 --> 03:30:28,139
Maybe you need to put
that on the guy who's

5059
03:30:28,139 --> 03:30:29,880
developing also the road

5060
03:30:29,880 --> 03:30:31,140
now, obviously down there,

5061
03:30:31,140 --> 03:30:33,509
they didn't even tie in
the roads that are in

5062
03:30:33,509 --> 03:30:36,809
the subdivision
back with the city.

5063
03:30:36,809 --> 03:30:38,279
It seems to me
things like that,

5064
03:30:38,279 --> 03:30:40,889
orderly development
which in

5065
03:30:40,889 --> 03:30:43,740
the future should do that.

5066
03:30:43,740 --> 03:30:45,074
So I think there
are some things

5067
03:30:45,074 --> 03:30:46,650
that you might refer to,

5068
03:30:46,650 --> 03:30:48,119
things that you should

5069
03:30:48,119 --> 03:30:49,709
know and maybe
noticed already,

5070
03:30:49,709 --> 03:30:51,779
negotiations are
currently going on

5071
03:30:51,779 --> 03:30:55,785
between brands pads
and Josephine County.

5072
03:30:55,785 --> 03:30:58,679
Similar to negotiations
that have gone on

5073
03:30:58,679 --> 03:31:00,524
between counties
and cities

5074
03:31:00,524 --> 03:31:01,710
probably for a long time,

5075
03:31:01,710 --> 03:31:02,909
but spurred by

5076
03:31:02,909 --> 03:31:05,115
the passage of
Senate Bill 122,

5077
03:31:05,115 --> 03:31:08,130
where the
legislature directed

5078
03:31:08,130 --> 03:31:09,360
city to Kennedy to come to

5079
03:31:09,360 --> 03:31:10,560
agreement about
provision of

5080
03:31:10,560 --> 03:31:12,599
urban services inside
or the movement in

5081
03:31:12,599 --> 03:31:14,790
those negotiations
were helping

5082
03:31:14,790 --> 03:31:17,415
to pay for the patient.

5083
03:31:17,415 --> 03:31:21,360
And for a time they
were going very well.

5084
03:31:21,360 --> 03:31:23,640
At least those were the
reports coming back.

5085
03:31:23,640 --> 03:31:27,720
I don't have the
latest up-to-date

5086
03:31:27,720 --> 03:31:28,890
report on how
they're going,

5087
03:31:28,890 --> 03:31:30,119
but they could potentially

5088
03:31:30,119 --> 03:31:32,520
resolve the
question of who

5089
03:31:32,520 --> 03:31:34,320
provide services
and in questions of

5090
03:31:34,320 --> 03:31:37,449
timing of provision
of services.

5091
03:31:37,750 --> 03:31:41,645
Some communities
are tackling

5092
03:31:41,645 --> 03:31:44,509
this set of issues
and they're on their

5093
03:31:44,509 --> 03:31:46,774
own without direction from

5094
03:31:46,774 --> 03:31:49,789
this commission
are addressing

5095
03:31:49,789 --> 03:31:53,369
the provision of urban
services inside.

5096
03:31:54,460 --> 03:31:56,660
And we spent a lot of

5097
03:31:56,660 --> 03:31:59,255
our transportation
and goes management

5098
03:31:59,255 --> 03:32:01,339
dollars to address this

5099
03:32:01,339 --> 03:32:02,540
and to help local
government to

5100
03:32:02,540 --> 03:32:06,779
address it in a
variety of ways.

5101
03:32:07,000 --> 03:32:09,949
But we have not, you have

5102
03:32:09,949 --> 03:32:13,699
not adopted a
currency requirement.

5103
03:32:13,699 --> 03:32:14,930
You really haven't gone

5104
03:32:14,930 --> 03:32:17,609
very far down the
path to do that.

5105
03:32:20,240 --> 03:32:22,844
And if you think about it,

5106
03:32:22,844 --> 03:32:26,760
if you're thinking HIPAA,
scratch your head.

5107
03:32:26,760 --> 03:32:28,649
Financing
mechanisms, but they

5108
03:32:28,649 --> 03:32:30,554
lead to local government.

5109
03:32:30,554 --> 03:32:31,559
I was wondering if

5110
03:32:31,559 --> 03:32:32,849
the homebuilding as
you rise and fall.

5111
03:32:32,849 --> 03:32:34,079
But Chairman,
I suggest that

5112
03:32:34,079 --> 03:32:35,369
maybe they ought
to be paying

5113
03:32:35,369 --> 03:32:36,239
for some of the things

5114
03:32:36,239 --> 03:32:37,740
that they really
should have

5115
03:32:37,740 --> 03:32:41,040
their chair more and

5116
03:32:41,040 --> 03:32:43,200
more as a systems
development charges

5117
03:32:43,200 --> 03:32:45,610
getting higher and higher.

5118
03:32:47,300 --> 03:32:49,859
I can't remember
which document,

5119
03:32:49,859 --> 03:32:51,089
but we've dealt
with this issue

5120
03:32:51,089 --> 03:32:52,650
locally and I
could life of me,

5121
03:32:52,650 --> 03:32:54,989
I can't remember
which document we

5122
03:32:54,989 --> 03:32:57,539
did it in some agreement
between the city

5123
03:32:57,539 --> 03:33:00,629
and county on
this development

5124
03:33:00,629 --> 03:33:03,615
and essentially
here in Salem.

5125
03:33:03,615 --> 03:33:06,360
If it's outside the
service district,

5126
03:33:06,360 --> 03:33:09,375
can we have one in
the Salem area?

5127
03:33:09,375 --> 03:33:11,370
It doesn't develop unless

5128
03:33:11,370 --> 03:33:14,129
the city is ready to
provide the services.

5129
03:33:14,129 --> 03:33:16,919
And Andy, it's
annex to the city.

5130
03:33:16,919 --> 03:33:19,410
I should say that when
you were looking at

5131
03:33:19,410 --> 03:33:21,600
the goal 14 work program,

5132
03:33:21,600 --> 03:33:22,680
if you remember, they were

5133
03:33:22,680 --> 03:33:24,419
the two issues that
we've highlighted.

5134
03:33:24,419 --> 03:33:26,039
One was population

5135
03:33:26,039 --> 03:33:27,449
coordination
and allocation,

5136
03:33:27,449 --> 03:33:29,250
and the other
was urban design

5137
03:33:29,250 --> 03:33:30,450
and so on and so forth.

5138
03:33:30,450 --> 03:33:32,639
We have thought
of that topic

5139
03:33:32,639 --> 03:33:34,874
is large enough to

5140
03:33:34,874 --> 03:33:37,664
embrace questions
of the timing

5141
03:33:37,664 --> 03:33:38,790
of the provision of

5142
03:33:38,790 --> 03:33:40,090
public facilities
and services.

5143
03:33:40,090 --> 03:33:43,139
So we will have a process

5144
03:33:43,139 --> 03:33:46,575
underway which you can

5145
03:33:46,575 --> 03:33:49,440
get to that set of issues.

5146
03:33:49,440 --> 03:33:52,690
We don't have a
solution yet.

5147
03:33:53,120 --> 03:33:55,740
Debate, I never saw
myself on where

5148
03:33:55,740 --> 03:33:58,229
this goes. This way.

5149
03:33:58,229 --> 03:34:01,019
My argument myself,
the one hand,

5150
03:34:01,019 --> 03:34:03,435
the folks living
out in this area,

5151
03:34:03,435 --> 03:34:06,269
there, taxes are
probably considerably

5152
03:34:06,269 --> 03:34:09,090
lower than they would

5153
03:34:09,090 --> 03:34:10,455
be if you live
in Grants Pass.

5154
03:34:10,455 --> 03:34:11,759
And a lot of that's
due to the fact

5155
03:34:11,759 --> 03:34:13,350
that they aren't
getting the services.

5156
03:34:13,350 --> 03:34:16,360
But if they don't
want the services,

5157
03:34:17,390 --> 03:34:19,619
shouldn't feel I'd
be the one to tell

5158
03:34:19,619 --> 03:34:23,084
them what happened. Hello.

5159
03:34:23,084 --> 03:34:25,919
I'm driving in and using
Grant's path. Okay.

5160
03:34:25,919 --> 03:34:28,845
Then the other
hand, I argue

5161
03:34:28,845 --> 03:34:31,529
for this brown jelly

5162
03:34:31,529 --> 03:34:33,944
or property I bought,
sit on your shoulder.

5163
03:34:33,944 --> 03:34:37,110
The other one says,

5164
03:34:37,110 --> 03:34:39,029
these people are probably

5165
03:34:39,029 --> 03:34:40,290
using the services of

5166
03:34:40,290 --> 03:34:43,079
the city and not

5167
03:34:43,079 --> 03:34:44,924
paying for them.
Is that fair?

5168
03:34:44,924 --> 03:34:47,050
No, that's not
fair either.

5169
03:34:47,930 --> 03:34:50,219
So I pardon?

5170
03:34:50,219 --> 03:34:55,259
Board is and what isn't

5171
03:34:55,259 --> 03:34:56,789
the primary issue in

5172
03:34:56,789 --> 03:34:58,139
the absence of
urban levels

5173
03:34:58,139 --> 03:34:59,280
observed as equals and

5174
03:34:59,280 --> 03:35:01,174
inefficient use of
verbalizable way.

5175
03:35:01,174 --> 03:35:02,790
And the larger the

5176
03:35:02,790 --> 03:35:04,709
growth boundary then
we need to add.

5177
03:35:04,709 --> 03:35:06,614
Management is
not necessarily

5178
03:35:06,614 --> 03:35:08,130
because you look at
East Baltimore County,

5179
03:35:08,130 --> 03:35:09,300
which you know very well.

5180
03:35:09,300 --> 03:35:11,564
Those are all 5,000
square foot lines.

5181
03:35:11,564 --> 03:35:13,320
Very efficient
use of labor.

5182
03:35:13,320 --> 03:35:14,279
Well, I suspect the number

5183
03:35:14,279 --> 03:35:15,419
were undeveloped
bubble because you

5184
03:35:15,419 --> 03:35:17,730
can't get a
Perkins to know.

5185
03:35:17,730 --> 03:35:19,890
But there we put sewer
in and so forth now.

5186
03:35:19,890 --> 03:35:21,660
Yeah. Well, that brings
but then question,

5187
03:35:21,660 --> 03:35:22,500
do you want to have what

5188
03:35:22,500 --> 03:35:23,444
happened to
these counties?

5189
03:35:23,444 --> 03:35:25,080
That's fine as well.

5190
03:35:25,080 --> 03:35:26,370
I've thought that
the next mid

5191
03:35:26,370 --> 03:35:27,960
County Sewer
project exactly.

5192
03:35:27,960 --> 03:35:30,630
I don't know what size

5193
03:35:30,630 --> 03:35:32,070
velocities are
developing yet,

5194
03:35:32,070 --> 03:35:35,699
but probably like Dunbar

5195
03:35:35,699 --> 03:35:37,870
for cephalic or smaller.

5196
03:35:38,030 --> 03:35:40,259
But then you get
down there and maybe

5197
03:35:40,259 --> 03:35:41,610
the areas could be sold

5198
03:35:41,610 --> 03:35:42,915
for single-family with

5199
03:35:42,915 --> 03:35:45,060
an on-site except here.

5200
03:35:45,060 --> 03:35:47,070
Maybe if you had
urban levels

5201
03:35:47,070 --> 03:35:48,360
of services to you could

5202
03:35:48,360 --> 03:35:50,940
come in with mid-rise.

5203
03:35:50,940 --> 03:35:54,794
And it just seems
to me the only

5204
03:35:54,794 --> 03:35:55,799
but one of

5205
03:35:55,799 --> 03:35:57,479
the most compelling
arguments that I've ever

5206
03:35:57,479 --> 03:35:59,939
seen for concurrency
in my mind right now.

5207
03:35:59,939 --> 03:36:02,759
Doesn't that avoiding
negative isn't as

5208
03:36:02,759 --> 03:36:05,159
urban form from serious

5209
03:36:05,159 --> 03:36:06,239
about them and it'll come

5210
03:36:06,239 --> 03:36:08,264
out within 14 worked for.

5211
03:36:08,264 --> 03:36:10,260
One of the things
that will come out of

5212
03:36:10,260 --> 03:36:11,759
that will be if
we have guidance

5213
03:36:11,759 --> 03:36:12,840
is we're reporting to

5214
03:36:12,840 --> 03:36:14,010
give local governments on

5215
03:36:14,010 --> 03:36:17,370
urban form enhanced
potential.

5216
03:36:17,370 --> 03:36:18,780
Somewhere in there
is going to be

5217
03:36:18,780 --> 03:36:19,949
a facilities analysis,

5218
03:36:19,949 --> 03:36:22,724
but they can get
what they are.

5219
03:36:22,724 --> 03:36:25,800
I've debated is whether
we shouldn't give

5220
03:36:25,800 --> 03:36:28,530
cities kinda veto power

5221
03:36:28,530 --> 03:36:30,989
over that kind of
thing happening.

5222
03:36:30,989 --> 03:36:36,315
And maybe the safe
harbor is your vision.

5223
03:36:36,315 --> 03:36:40,349
No development unless
there's annexation and

5224
03:36:40,349 --> 03:36:44,730
certainly you don't
want to do that,

5225
03:36:44,730 --> 03:36:46,739
then there has to be
some quid pro quo.

5226
03:36:46,739 --> 03:36:48,854
Would the city
where there's

5227
03:36:48,854 --> 03:36:50,190
adequate payments
with city of

5228
03:36:50,190 --> 03:36:52,290
whatever services
it's providing.

5229
03:36:52,290 --> 03:36:56,800
Such as shopping centers.

5230
03:36:57,290 --> 03:36:59,700
The county government
is probably an

5231
03:36:59,700 --> 03:37:01,889
acidic not they
make connections

5232
03:37:01,889 --> 03:37:05,670
for delay that Act

5233
03:37:05,670 --> 03:37:08,049
section one of the
tools you use.

5234
03:37:08,600 --> 03:37:10,919
I'm fine.

5235
03:37:10,919 --> 03:37:12,900
Of course, annexation by

5236
03:37:12,900 --> 03:37:14,325
boat was one of
the other tools

5237
03:37:14,325 --> 03:37:16,169
designed to basically
pulled to the back of

5238
03:37:16,169 --> 03:37:18,969
the moratorium because
of that situation.

5239
03:37:21,440 --> 03:37:24,160
It's a tough week.

5240
03:37:24,200 --> 03:37:27,059
We've been at a
number of years ago.

5241
03:37:27,059 --> 03:37:30,000
Think that most of
the Bastille had

5242
03:37:30,000 --> 03:37:33,090
my Hannah city urban

5243
03:37:33,090 --> 03:37:34,410
service agreements
that have

5244
03:37:34,410 --> 03:37:36,569
followed on the heels
of the one-twenty

5245
03:37:36,569 --> 03:37:39,210
to answer those questions,

5246
03:37:39,210 --> 03:37:42,270
they talk about
which services and

5247
03:37:42,270 --> 03:37:43,859
when it essentially they

5248
03:37:43,859 --> 03:37:46,754
give either party
to the agreement.

5249
03:37:46,754 --> 03:37:48,644
Some sort of say.

5250
03:37:48,644 --> 03:37:51,340
And when
development happen,

5251
03:37:52,300 --> 03:37:55,549
it would be wonderful
if every city

5252
03:37:55,549 --> 03:37:57,590
and county to have
such an agreement,

5253
03:37:57,590 --> 03:37:59,930
but particularly if you

5254
03:37:59,930 --> 03:38:02,959
have more than one service
districts involved

5255
03:38:02,959 --> 03:38:04,729
in negotiations
are very beginning

5256
03:38:04,729 --> 03:38:08,555
is they take a lot
of unwanted energy.

5257
03:38:08,555 --> 03:38:09,979
And I don't know if
you remember during

5258
03:38:09,979 --> 03:38:11,209
the testimony about

5259
03:38:11,209 --> 03:38:13,969
the urban growth
management package

5260
03:38:13,969 --> 03:38:15,620
of recommendations
that came in,

5261
03:38:15,620 --> 03:38:17,120
you got a lot of testimony

5262
03:38:17,120 --> 03:38:19,880
about if you want

5263
03:38:19,880 --> 03:38:22,490
these Senate Bill
122 agreements,

5264
03:38:22,490 --> 03:38:24,320
you better give us
some grant money is

5265
03:38:24,320 --> 03:38:26,809
because it's really tiny.

5266
03:38:26,809 --> 03:38:28,459
I remember Bob Stacey was

5267
03:38:28,459 --> 03:38:30,574
planning director of
the City of Portland

5268
03:38:30,574 --> 03:38:32,959
coming forward
and they had

5269
03:38:32,959 --> 03:38:35,189
a Dickey counted scores

5270
03:38:35,189 --> 03:38:38,279
and scores of districts

5271
03:38:38,279 --> 03:38:40,545
that he was going to
have to negotiate with?

5272
03:38:40,545 --> 03:38:43,379
Only the three counties.

5273
03:38:44,360 --> 03:38:46,799
The other question
in my mind,

5274
03:38:46,799 --> 03:38:48,149
that both Mr. Mr.

5275
03:38:48,149 --> 03:38:55,770
Jenkins, these are
things that DLC why Mr.

5276
03:38:55,770 --> 03:38:59,759
do encourage you to
do this and why was

5277
03:38:59,759 --> 03:39:04,155
our staff to do
the enforcement?

5278
03:39:04,155 --> 03:39:08,219
Well, we took I don't
recall the testimony,

5279
03:39:08,219 --> 03:39:09,510
but what happens is

5280
03:39:09,510 --> 03:39:10,679
that we take
testimony from

5281
03:39:10,679 --> 03:39:12,839
all departments and then

5282
03:39:12,839 --> 03:39:13,980
on the basis of testimony,

5283
03:39:13,980 --> 03:39:15,120
we make a decision
on whether there's

5284
03:39:15,120 --> 03:39:16,454
a basis for enforcement.

5285
03:39:16,454 --> 03:39:18,720
But what we would

5286
03:39:18,720 --> 03:39:21,270
be logical for our
staff to tell us that,

5287
03:39:21,270 --> 03:39:23,429
you know, well, we
heard that work.

5288
03:39:23,429 --> 03:39:24,839
No. Well, we heard from

5289
03:39:24,839 --> 03:39:26,460
our staff are heard
Mr. Duvall here,

5290
03:39:26,460 --> 03:39:27,720
the county or the

5291
03:39:27,720 --> 03:39:30,795
city or county, who
argued against it.

5292
03:39:30,795 --> 03:39:32,399
And we wait at all,

5293
03:39:32,399 --> 03:39:33,615
we came to this
conclusion.

5294
03:39:33,615 --> 03:39:35,024
I don't remember.

5295
03:39:35,024 --> 03:39:36,434
I unfortunately
don't remember.

5296
03:39:36,434 --> 03:39:39,540
Well, the first
is John put it

5297
03:39:39,540 --> 03:39:40,995
a low threshold if it's

5298
03:39:40,995 --> 03:39:43,679
there or could there
be sufficient grounds?

5299
03:39:43,679 --> 03:39:44,024
Yes.

5300
03:39:44,024 --> 03:39:45,270
And then you get
to the next step,

5301
03:39:45,270 --> 03:39:47,309
which is the hearings
officers rolling That's

5302
03:39:47,309 --> 03:39:50,610
decide whether I mean,

5303
03:39:50,610 --> 03:39:52,994
I think you'd probably
use it low threshold,

5304
03:39:52,994 --> 03:39:54,330
but I'm not sure if it's

5305
03:39:54,330 --> 03:39:55,559
proper for the arguments

5306
03:39:55,559 --> 03:39:58,079
are just a series
of images.

5307
03:39:58,079 --> 03:39:59,970
What you heard today,
26 developments.

5308
03:39:59,970 --> 03:40:02,070
We've known urban
services to speak up,

5309
03:40:02,070 --> 03:40:03,660
which does that
give rise and

5310
03:40:03,660 --> 03:40:05,189
we weren't in a
position to debate

5311
03:40:05,189 --> 03:40:06,659
whether Goal 11 required

5312
03:40:06,659 --> 03:40:08,685
confined to
your NADH time?

5313
03:40:08,685 --> 03:40:10,650
It was more a matter of

5314
03:40:10,650 --> 03:40:13,154
Wasn't it comes up again.

5315
03:40:13,154 --> 03:40:14,384
We know.

5316
03:40:14,384 --> 03:40:17,099
That's my wish.

5317
03:40:17,099 --> 03:40:21,069
We had known before
your work program.

5318
03:40:21,260 --> 03:40:23,729
And we actually
have a draft of it

5319
03:40:23,729 --> 03:40:25,545
in our hands so
that becoming too

5320
03:40:25,545 --> 03:40:28,214
soon to say
draft rules that

5321
03:40:28,214 --> 03:40:30,284
would govern

5322
03:40:30,284 --> 03:40:33,914
the citizen
enforcement procedure?

5323
03:40:33,914 --> 03:40:35,789
I can't remember which

5324
03:40:35,789 --> 03:40:37,320
particular
proceeding it was,

5325
03:40:37,320 --> 03:40:38,580
but it was after that.

5326
03:40:38,580 --> 03:40:40,724
I think it was the
couple that we got from

5327
03:40:40,724 --> 03:40:42,270
the mores Sanchez
petitions

5328
03:40:42,270 --> 03:40:44,350
from the north coast,

5329
03:40:44,570 --> 03:40:48,899
recognizing that
people could get into

5330
03:40:48,899 --> 03:40:51,329
this process without
knowing very

5331
03:40:51,329 --> 03:40:54,000
much about the process.

5332
03:40:54,000 --> 03:40:57,045
What's possible
results might be.

5333
03:40:57,045 --> 03:40:59,430
If you adopted a
rule in the rule,

5334
03:40:59,430 --> 03:41:01,664
you could define
the cause.

5335
03:41:01,664 --> 03:41:03,359
And you can also lay out

5336
03:41:03,359 --> 03:41:05,280
the entire process
so that somebody

5337
03:41:05,280 --> 03:41:07,019
thinking about
it would know

5338
03:41:07,019 --> 03:41:09,285
better what he or she
is getting into it.

5339
03:41:09,285 --> 03:41:10,949
I think that will help.

5340
03:41:10,949 --> 03:41:14,294
It doesn't change
the threshold.

5341
03:41:14,294 --> 03:41:16,469
Threshold is in
the statute,

5342
03:41:16,469 --> 03:41:19,109
but at least
they can offer

5343
03:41:19,109 --> 03:41:20,444
guidance to people about

5344
03:41:20,444 --> 03:41:22,050
how to meet nutritional.

5345
03:41:22,050 --> 03:41:24,075
It might be the
budgeted cost

5346
03:41:24,075 --> 03:41:29,009
came to threshold. Yeah.

5347
03:41:29,009 --> 03:41:31,419
Good point. Forgotten
that we did that.

5348
03:41:31,419 --> 03:41:33,930
We did remember
the same thing we

5349
03:41:33,930 --> 03:41:35,609
were going to tell him

5350
03:41:35,609 --> 03:41:38,589
just having your
argument correctly.

5351
03:41:41,540 --> 03:41:43,800
I think the word growing

5352
03:41:43,800 --> 03:41:46,749
calls for you to ask
them in the fall.

5353
03:41:47,450 --> 03:41:50,679
Actually start
earlier, I believe,

5354
03:41:50,679 --> 03:41:52,995
but I mean, we've
now had a grant.

5355
03:41:52,995 --> 03:41:56,140
We will begin the
public process.

5356
03:42:01,100 --> 03:42:03,090
Everybody has one, right.

5357
03:42:03,090 --> 03:42:03,509
Okay.

5358
03:42:03,509 --> 03:42:04,889
And you want to just
tell people what it is.

5359
03:42:04,889 --> 03:42:08,790
But yesterday I mentioned

5360
03:42:08,790 --> 03:42:12,060
that we are beginning
the process of

5361
03:42:12,060 --> 03:42:14,309
developing ideas that we

5362
03:42:14,309 --> 03:42:15,810
would take her
bills that we

5363
03:42:15,810 --> 03:42:20,445
would take to the
legislature and 97 session.

5364
03:42:20,445 --> 03:42:22,950
And I think I
mentioned that there

5365
03:42:22,950 --> 03:42:27,014
were 12 items on it.

5366
03:42:27,014 --> 03:42:31,694
Several of them have
to do with hazards.

5367
03:42:31,694 --> 03:42:33,314
You'll recognize it.

5368
03:42:33,314 --> 03:42:36,570
A couple of them are

5369
03:42:36,570 --> 03:42:38,430
spurred by what happened

5370
03:42:38,430 --> 03:42:40,395
with the capes
development.

5371
03:42:40,395 --> 03:42:44,280
We're recommending a
an improved process

5372
03:42:44,280 --> 03:42:46,184
of inner agency treatment

5373
03:42:46,184 --> 03:42:47,969
of beach front
protective structures.

5374
03:42:47,969 --> 03:42:49,469
Right now there
are two, sometimes

5375
03:42:49,469 --> 03:42:51,449
three agencies involved.

5376
03:42:51,449 --> 03:42:55,724
We're going to have
an idea there about

5377
03:42:55,724 --> 03:42:57,930
requiring a
different way of

5378
03:42:57,930 --> 03:43:01,210
doing geotechnical
reports for development.

5379
03:43:01,430 --> 03:43:06,014
And then a repeat of
what was last session,

5380
03:43:06,014 --> 03:43:09,029
cynical when 98,
dealing with

5381
03:43:09,029 --> 03:43:10,560
disclosure of
known hazards

5382
03:43:10,560 --> 03:43:13,480
and property transactions.

5383
03:43:21,170 --> 03:43:23,939
Let's see regional
problem-solving

5384
03:43:23,939 --> 03:43:26,579
that continue the program.

5385
03:43:26,579 --> 03:43:28,349
But instead of
treating it as

5386
03:43:28,349 --> 03:43:30,419
an adjunct to the
land use process,

5387
03:43:30,419 --> 03:43:32,550
we would fit it into

5388
03:43:32,550 --> 03:43:33,959
the periodic reviews that

5389
03:43:33,959 --> 03:43:35,864
you take out the sunset

5390
03:43:35,864 --> 03:43:38,700
and make it part of

5391
03:43:38,700 --> 03:43:40,859
our regular grants program

5392
03:43:40,859 --> 03:43:44,039
that will be
coming to you.

5393
03:43:44,039 --> 03:43:47,684
Periodically view the
ideation that bill

5394
03:43:47,684 --> 03:43:51,030
is to get noticed that

5395
03:43:51,030 --> 03:43:53,745
the department from
local governments

5396
03:43:53,745 --> 03:43:56,729
impose planet
in it outside

5397
03:43:56,729 --> 03:43:58,380
a periodic review the plan

5398
03:43:58,380 --> 03:44:00,030
in the process so that we

5399
03:44:00,030 --> 03:44:01,800
have more time to

5400
03:44:01,800 --> 03:44:03,884
get involved earlier
in the process.

5401
03:44:03,884 --> 03:44:07,869
Often are purchased.

5402
03:44:08,090 --> 03:44:11,235
O2 there, the second one,

5403
03:44:11,235 --> 03:44:13,859
willingness and
agricultural zones

5404
03:44:13,859 --> 03:44:17,280
are notion there is in

5405
03:44:17,280 --> 03:44:20,280
the event that you do

5406
03:44:20,280 --> 03:44:21,779
not address a lot

5407
03:44:21,779 --> 03:44:23,400
of record and
template dwellings,

5408
03:44:23,400 --> 03:44:26,249
the way that
we recommended

5409
03:44:26,249 --> 03:44:27,329
so far in

5410
03:44:27,329 --> 03:44:29,684
the draft amendments
that goes through it.

5411
03:44:29,684 --> 03:44:32,505
We would have a bill.

5412
03:44:32,505 --> 03:44:35,039
We would pursue it during

5413
03:44:35,039 --> 03:44:37,424
the legislative session
or in the event

5414
03:44:37,424 --> 03:44:39,300
that for some reason

5415
03:44:39,300 --> 03:44:42,180
who adopt that shot down,

5416
03:44:42,180 --> 03:44:43,950
then we would be
in a position to

5417
03:44:43,950 --> 03:44:46,409
advance of the
legislature.

5418
03:44:46,409 --> 03:44:49,590
You'll recognize
those three

5419
03:44:49,590 --> 03:44:51,719
citizen involvement
advisory committees,

5420
03:44:51,719 --> 03:44:53,580
period, about slap suits.

5421
03:44:53,580 --> 03:44:56,160
And you've got

5422
03:44:56,160 --> 03:45:01,139
built dress that
soils analysis.

5423
03:45:01,139 --> 03:45:03,000
This goes along
with the idea

5424
03:45:03,000 --> 03:45:06,345
in graphical 3.4 rules.

5425
03:45:06,345 --> 03:45:08,159
Once we saw that you might

5426
03:45:08,159 --> 03:45:10,139
be including that in

5427
03:45:10,139 --> 03:45:11,535
the goal three amendments,

5428
03:45:11,535 --> 03:45:13,079
we knew that
we had to have

5429
03:45:13,079 --> 03:45:14,835
a bill in order to seek

5430
03:45:14,835 --> 03:45:16,199
legislative
approval to charge

5431
03:45:16,199 --> 03:45:18,434
a fee and a
budget proposal.

5432
03:45:18,434 --> 03:45:20,250
So there's this vehicle in

5433
03:45:20,250 --> 03:45:22,380
case we decide
to pursue it.

5434
03:45:22,380 --> 03:45:23,490
I should say that we

5435
03:45:23,490 --> 03:45:24,644
can withdraw any of these,

5436
03:45:24,644 --> 03:45:26,955
but under the DAS process,

5437
03:45:26,955 --> 03:45:29,200
we had to meet a deadline.

5438
03:45:29,750 --> 03:45:31,904
05.

5439
03:45:31,904 --> 03:45:33,765
During the last session,

5440
03:45:33,765 --> 03:45:37,200
legislators complained
that every session

5441
03:45:37,200 --> 03:45:39,464
there are five
to ten gills

5442
03:45:39,464 --> 03:45:41,895
asking the legislature
to add and

5443
03:45:41,895 --> 03:45:46,484
uses those authorized
to 15 to 13.283.

5444
03:45:46,484 --> 03:45:48,975
Some legislators
are tired of it,

5445
03:45:48,975 --> 03:45:50,340
and they would just send

5446
03:45:50,340 --> 03:45:53,670
this commission be
authorized to add and

5447
03:45:53,670 --> 03:45:56,820
uses that are
consistent with others

5448
03:45:56,820 --> 03:45:59,684
without having to go
to the legislature.

5449
03:45:59,684 --> 03:46:01,364
Right. There's yeah.

5450
03:46:01,364 --> 03:46:04,719
Why why farms
and the rest?

5451
03:46:09,950 --> 03:46:12,059
I think I addressed it.

5452
03:46:12,059 --> 03:46:14,534
I addressed the next one.

5453
03:46:14,534 --> 03:46:17,564
State agencies state
agency coordination,

5454
03:46:17,564 --> 03:46:18,959
re-certification.

5455
03:46:18,959 --> 03:46:20,220
There is no process in

5456
03:46:20,220 --> 03:46:23,880
state law for
looking once again,

5457
03:46:23,880 --> 03:46:26,294
at a state agency
coordination program.

5458
03:46:26,294 --> 03:46:29,250
We've had we have
pending requests from

5459
03:46:29,250 --> 03:46:33,059
two agencies to revise
their programs.

5460
03:46:33,059 --> 03:46:34,889
We've had a situation in

5461
03:46:34,889 --> 03:46:37,979
which the state is

5462
03:46:37,979 --> 03:46:39,090
the coordination
program by

5463
03:46:39,090 --> 03:46:41,790
the military department
was perhaps that odds

5464
03:46:41,790 --> 03:46:46,515
with proposal on
the military camps.

5465
03:46:46,515 --> 03:46:50,129
Camp a, their legislators,

5466
03:46:50,129 --> 03:46:52,244
one legislator asks us

5467
03:46:52,244 --> 03:46:54,690
to look at this
and see whether it

5468
03:46:54,690 --> 03:46:55,739
might not be a
good idea to

5469
03:46:55,739 --> 03:46:57,540
revisit those

5470
03:46:57,540 --> 03:46:59,864
state agency
coordination provisions.

5471
03:46:59,864 --> 03:47:02,009
Were not all that
anxious to do it

5472
03:47:02,009 --> 03:47:03,795
unless we have
additional resources.

5473
03:47:03,795 --> 03:47:06,105
But clearly,

5474
03:47:06,105 --> 03:47:07,830
the case could be
made that there ought

5475
03:47:07,830 --> 03:47:09,839
to be authorization in
the statute to deal

5476
03:47:09,839 --> 03:47:14,230
with tough cases that
may come around.

5477
03:47:15,830 --> 03:47:18,629
There are helping
here having to do

5478
03:47:18,629 --> 03:47:22,900
with which come out
of the PGM team.

5479
03:47:23,090 --> 03:47:25,205
I don't wanna get into

5480
03:47:25,205 --> 03:47:26,550
great detail
because this will

5481
03:47:26,550 --> 03:47:27,689
eventually come
back to you and you

5482
03:47:27,689 --> 03:47:29,340
need more detail
to understand.

5483
03:47:29,340 --> 03:47:32,160
And maybe the 1980s
explain to you Linda.

5484
03:47:32,160 --> 03:47:34,080
The last three there on

5485
03:47:34,080 --> 03:47:36,090
that list with a three
I talked about at

5486
03:47:36,090 --> 03:47:40,659
first having aims
particularly at the coast.

5487
03:47:41,030 --> 03:47:44,099
And we're hoping that

5488
03:47:44,099 --> 03:47:46,080
the recommendations
coming out of

5489
03:47:46,080 --> 03:47:48,660
the two taskforce is
Hector's on one of them.

5490
03:47:48,660 --> 03:47:50,684
Dealing with landslides.

5491
03:47:50,684 --> 03:47:54,959
Floodplains will give
us some momentum behind

5492
03:47:54,959 --> 03:47:56,459
these ideas and
maybe give us

5493
03:47:56,459 --> 03:48:00,219
a better chance of
getting to address.

5494
03:48:00,260 --> 03:48:04,124
This packet. Will.

5495
03:48:04,124 --> 03:48:09,255
Every case has language
that you can look at.

5496
03:48:09,255 --> 03:48:12,239
It's rough in
some instances

5497
03:48:12,239 --> 03:48:14,235
because it's
first thinking.

5498
03:48:14,235 --> 03:48:17,490
But we'll try to find

5499
03:48:17,490 --> 03:48:19,154
some time on your agenda

5500
03:48:19,154 --> 03:48:21,599
in the next couple
of meetings to

5501
03:48:21,599 --> 03:48:25,080
talk about them
with yourselves

5502
03:48:25,080 --> 03:48:26,549
and tell us whether or

5503
03:48:26,549 --> 03:48:28,530
not you went
to pursue what

5504
03:48:28,530 --> 03:48:30,690
time restraint
triggered this.

5505
03:48:30,690 --> 03:48:34,184
Have you have to be
done in each biennium

5506
03:48:34,184 --> 03:48:36,090
in the middle
part of April,

5507
03:48:36,090 --> 03:48:38,220
the Department of
Administrative Services

5508
03:48:38,220 --> 03:48:39,870
says he does.

5509
03:48:39,870 --> 03:48:41,399
He's having to have
their legislative

5510
03:48:41,399 --> 03:48:43,589
ideas in the pipeline.

5511
03:48:43,589 --> 03:48:45,689
And it starts
alone process

5512
03:48:45,689 --> 03:48:47,595
that goes on for
many months.

5513
03:48:47,595 --> 03:48:50,609
That involves
review of them by

5514
03:48:50,609 --> 03:48:52,379
the Department of
Human Services

5515
03:48:52,379 --> 03:48:53,790
and the governance office.

5516
03:48:53,790 --> 03:48:55,889
Interagency
coordination makes sure

5517
03:48:55,889 --> 03:48:58,680
that parks proposals are

5518
03:48:58,680 --> 03:49:00,899
consistent with ours
and vice versa.

5519
03:49:00,899 --> 03:49:03,359
You can add to
the list later.

5520
03:49:03,359 --> 03:49:05,970
Well, it always

5521
03:49:05,970 --> 03:49:09,134
happens because
more difficult.

5522
03:49:09,134 --> 03:49:12,360
If there is something
that the commission

5523
03:49:12,360 --> 03:49:15,090
wants to pursue that
isn't on this list.

5524
03:49:15,090 --> 03:49:16,754
There are always ways

5525
03:49:16,754 --> 03:49:19,889
of getting any legislator
introduced them.

5526
03:49:19,889 --> 03:49:21,660
That's never
been a problem.

5527
03:49:21,660 --> 03:49:24,090
This process is aimed

5528
03:49:24,090 --> 03:49:27,640
at generating
early thinking.

5529
03:49:35,960 --> 03:49:38,520
Before you leave.

5530
03:49:38,520 --> 03:49:40,739
I'm going to go for a run.

5531
03:49:40,739 --> 03:49:42,269
Once you come up
to the microphone,

5532
03:49:42,269 --> 03:49:44,879
a question about how
you want to proceed.

5533
03:49:44,879 --> 03:49:46,635
At the May meeting.

5534
03:49:46,635 --> 03:49:49,245
You remember you decided

5535
03:49:49,245 --> 03:49:52,140
yesterday that you
would leave the

5536
03:49:52,140 --> 03:49:53,849
record open for a period

5537
03:49:53,849 --> 03:49:55,499
of time in order
to get written

5538
03:49:55,499 --> 03:49:58,769
comments on another draft

5539
03:49:58,769 --> 03:50:00,974
that we're going
to crank out.

5540
03:50:00,974 --> 03:50:05,759
I've had we we
know that probably

5541
03:50:05,759 --> 03:50:10,019
the most difficult
issue is what to do

5542
03:50:10,019 --> 03:50:11,310
with them materially alter

5543
03:50:11,310 --> 03:50:13,379
the overall
stability criterion

5544
03:50:13,379 --> 03:50:15,165
for notifying dwellings?

5545
03:50:15,165 --> 03:50:18,510
Ron expressed
to be a concern

5546
03:50:18,510 --> 03:50:22,679
that we'll we'll get
something out by good.

5547
03:50:22,679 --> 03:50:25,079
We will continue to have

5548
03:50:25,079 --> 03:50:28,199
discussions with
many of the players.

5549
03:50:28,199 --> 03:50:31,110
It's likely that after

5550
03:50:31,110 --> 03:50:32,849
we send out the
draft next week,

5551
03:50:32,849 --> 03:50:34,380
but before we send out

5552
03:50:34,380 --> 03:50:37,049
a commission report in

5553
03:50:37,049 --> 03:50:38,429
time for you to
get it and read

5554
03:50:38,429 --> 03:50:40,394
it before the
next meeting.

5555
03:50:40,394 --> 03:50:43,170
New ideas are
going to come up.

5556
03:50:43,170 --> 03:50:46,080
Some people are not
going to have seen them.

5557
03:50:46,080 --> 03:50:48,029
By the time
they're sitting

5558
03:50:48,029 --> 03:50:49,784
on your desk, you have
the next meeting.

5559
03:50:49,784 --> 03:50:52,470
So we're struggling with

5560
03:50:52,470 --> 03:50:53,609
how to deal with that.

5561
03:50:53,609 --> 03:50:58,349
One way might be
to say that, um,

5562
03:50:58,349 --> 03:51:01,979
you would accept
testimony on

5563
03:51:01,979 --> 03:51:03,690
the 29th or I guess
what would be

5564
03:51:03,690 --> 03:51:06,464
the whatever day
we said it, 8-29.

5565
03:51:06,464 --> 03:51:07,755
You would accept
the testimony

5566
03:51:07,755 --> 03:51:09,194
on that issue alone.

5567
03:51:09,194 --> 03:51:12,375
That way you wouldn't
have an opportunity.

5568
03:51:12,375 --> 03:51:14,549
You read this stuff
and you want to find

5569
03:51:14,549 --> 03:51:15,480
out what the city or

5570
03:51:15,480 --> 03:51:16,830
the county to
think about it.

5571
03:51:16,830 --> 03:51:19,200
So you won't have
that disability

5572
03:51:19,200 --> 03:51:22,650
that you would have if
the hearing is closed.

5573
03:51:22,650 --> 03:51:25,995
The downside of doing bed,

5574
03:51:25,995 --> 03:51:27,720
a lot of people are
going to be interested

5575
03:51:27,720 --> 03:51:30,614
in if we

5576
03:51:30,614 --> 03:51:33,330
allow open hearing as

5577
03:51:33,330 --> 03:51:34,589
opposed to just written on

5578
03:51:34,589 --> 03:51:36,285
it for a couple of weeks.

5579
03:51:36,285 --> 03:51:38,564
I'm not sure we'll
get through it.

5580
03:51:38,564 --> 03:51:39,870
I'm not sure
you'll be able to

5581
03:51:39,870 --> 03:51:41,489
get through the goal

5582
03:51:41,489 --> 03:51:44,909
three goal for amendments
at that meeting.

5583
03:51:44,909 --> 03:51:48,209
So our options or

5584
03:51:48,209 --> 03:51:51,219
leave it the way you
left it yesterday.

5585
03:51:51,950 --> 03:51:56,775
Open it for a
public hearing,

5586
03:51:56,775 --> 03:52:00,345
just materially
alter standard.

5587
03:52:00,345 --> 03:52:03,059
Or there was one idea

5588
03:52:03,059 --> 03:52:05,085
that was tossed
out yesterday

5589
03:52:05,085 --> 03:52:07,170
and that is if we don't if

5590
03:52:07,170 --> 03:52:09,945
you don't feel like you
can nail this down.

5591
03:52:09,945 --> 03:52:11,430
At the next meeting

5592
03:52:11,430 --> 03:52:12,869
with the rest
of the stuff.

5593
03:52:12,869 --> 03:52:14,609
You can tell us

5594
03:52:14,609 --> 03:52:19,529
to take more time
on that one.

5595
03:52:19,529 --> 03:52:21,270
Back.

5596
03:52:21,270 --> 03:52:24,449
Several months, however
long it takes to

5597
03:52:24,449 --> 03:52:27,180
have a really good
proposal for you.

5598
03:52:27,180 --> 03:52:29,220
And we just do a
separate rulemaking or

5599
03:52:29,220 --> 03:52:34,240
that and not try to do
what to that standard?

5600
03:52:34,850 --> 03:52:38,190
Maybe Rogers another.
So what do you do?

5601
03:52:38,190 --> 03:52:39,629
Your first one?

5602
03:52:39,629 --> 03:52:41,699
Recombine them where we

5603
03:52:41,699 --> 03:52:45,490
left yesterday
to describe.

5604
03:52:47,510 --> 03:52:49,485
One other.

5605
03:52:49,485 --> 03:52:52,379
Nuance would be
after we get

5606
03:52:52,379 --> 03:52:55,590
comments in on
the 13th of May,

5607
03:52:55,590 --> 03:52:58,409
we'll evaluate those and

5608
03:52:58,409 --> 03:53:00,690
we'll have a memo come
to the commission

5609
03:53:00,690 --> 03:53:04,950
that summarizes those
and may suggest

5610
03:53:04,950 --> 03:53:07,860
some additional
changes will

5611
03:53:07,860 --> 03:53:09,030
mail those out to people.

5612
03:53:09,030 --> 03:53:11,369
We could allow you to
the written comments on

5613
03:53:11,369 --> 03:53:14,745
that revision in
that or limit

5614
03:53:14,745 --> 03:53:18,195
the second round of
written comments to

5615
03:53:18,195 --> 03:53:20,610
only materially altered or

5616
03:53:20,610 --> 03:53:22,889
anything else
that is modified.

5617
03:53:22,889 --> 03:53:26,235
So you still keep it
at written comments.

5618
03:53:26,235 --> 03:53:28,079
We put in our notice that

5619
03:53:28,079 --> 03:53:30,489
we have a public hearing.

5620
03:53:30,800 --> 03:53:34,289
I would recommend
that you not do that.

5621
03:53:34,289 --> 03:53:36,279
Dry dead.

5622
03:53:42,170 --> 03:53:45,970
We are we're not. Right.

5623
03:53:50,870 --> 03:53:53,669
Why do you think that?

5624
03:53:53,669 --> 03:53:56,100
Just opening up
on that one issue

5625
03:53:56,100 --> 03:53:59,700
is I don't know the
size of the agenda.

5626
03:53:59,700 --> 03:54:03,299
Forgotten, it would
founder us to take

5627
03:54:03,299 --> 03:54:07,229
public testimony
on just what I'm

5628
03:54:07,229 --> 03:54:12,179
thinking is you wanted

5629
03:54:12,179 --> 03:54:14,370
to go to the
screw proposed

5630
03:54:14,370 --> 03:54:16,870
amendments carefully.

5631
03:54:17,300 --> 03:54:18,900
And you haven't had

5632
03:54:18,900 --> 03:54:19,980
a chance to do
that and get

5633
03:54:19,980 --> 03:54:21,990
you started to do
that yesterday.

5634
03:54:21,990 --> 03:54:25,110
Let's go through it line
by line in order for

5635
03:54:25,110 --> 03:54:28,560
you to use all
of these things.

5636
03:54:28,560 --> 03:54:30,030
I don't know that
they will be

5637
03:54:30,030 --> 03:54:32,999
enough time on the
May agenda to do

5638
03:54:32,999 --> 03:54:37,724
that and make comments

5639
03:54:37,724 --> 03:54:39,884
on the materially alter.

5640
03:54:39,884 --> 03:54:42,869
That agenda is
sufficiently fool

5641
03:54:42,869 --> 03:54:44,475
that I think we
can anticipate

5642
03:54:44,475 --> 03:54:48,809
having only about 3 h
to do the whole goal,

5643
03:54:48,809 --> 03:54:52,575
three goal for work.
We think we can do it.

5644
03:54:52,575 --> 03:54:54,869
If there's no hearing.

5645
03:54:54,869 --> 03:54:57,959
I envision that the draft

5646
03:54:57,959 --> 03:54:59,219
I'll have out next week.

5647
03:54:59,219 --> 03:55:01,095
We'll have a
new version of

5648
03:55:01,095 --> 03:55:02,550
the materially
altered standard,

5649
03:55:02,550 --> 03:55:03,420
but it'll be,

5650
03:55:03,420 --> 03:55:05,070
won't be clear and

5651
03:55:05,070 --> 03:55:07,290
objective data will
be more general,

5652
03:55:07,290 --> 03:55:09,059
will get comments on that.

5653
03:55:09,059 --> 03:55:10,515
And then in the meantime,

5654
03:55:10,515 --> 03:55:13,440
I and others will try and

5655
03:55:13,440 --> 03:55:16,409
evaluate a clear and
objective standards

5656
03:55:16,409 --> 03:55:18,465
so that we can bring
you some maps and say,

5657
03:55:18,465 --> 03:55:22,469
This is what I only fear

5658
03:55:22,469 --> 03:55:24,749
within our evaluation
would just be

5659
03:55:24,749 --> 03:55:27,719
the departments and
the other parties.

5660
03:55:27,719 --> 03:55:29,969
Maybe they could submit
something in writing,

5661
03:55:29,969 --> 03:55:31,169
but they're all going

5662
03:55:31,169 --> 03:55:32,220
to want to say something

5663
03:55:32,220 --> 03:55:34,560
about those clear and

5664
03:55:34,560 --> 03:55:36,284
objective standards
when you work.

5665
03:55:36,284 --> 03:55:38,759
Maybe all we shoot
for is to try and

5666
03:55:38,759 --> 03:55:41,185
come up with
general language.

5667
03:55:41,185 --> 03:55:42,360
And we really need to push

5668
03:55:42,360 --> 03:55:44,354
that out beyond May,

5669
03:55:44,354 --> 03:55:46,080
maybe there's
really no way

5670
03:55:46,080 --> 03:55:47,549
to do it because
if you open it up,

5671
03:55:47,549 --> 03:55:48,870
it's going to take
up all the time

5672
03:55:48,870 --> 03:55:50,654
and you won't get the
other stuff done.

5673
03:55:50,654 --> 03:55:52,079
Well, that's what I

5674
03:55:52,079 --> 03:55:53,250
was going through
my mind as to

5675
03:55:53,250 --> 03:55:55,259
split that
happened meetings

5676
03:55:55,259 --> 03:55:57,135
start off that way
the public hearing,

5677
03:55:57,135 --> 03:56:01,590
but everything but
material altered part.

5678
03:56:01,590 --> 03:56:04,769
We got through
that. We adopted.

5679
03:56:04,769 --> 03:56:07,589
Then if there's time left,

5680
03:56:07,589 --> 03:56:11,609
we hold a public
hearing on

5681
03:56:11,609 --> 03:56:16,439
the materially
alter notice.

5682
03:56:16,439 --> 03:56:19,899
Notice that we might
we might cancel.

5683
03:56:20,150 --> 03:56:25,500
Now that you either

5684
03:56:25,500 --> 03:56:26,729
have to notice that you're

5685
03:56:26,729 --> 03:56:28,110
going to hold a
public hearing,

5686
03:56:28,110 --> 03:56:30,690
not at war or not hold
the public hearing.

5687
03:56:30,690 --> 03:56:31,859
I mean, we noticed
that we're

5688
03:56:31,859 --> 03:56:33,780
going to have and then
we just continue.

5689
03:56:33,780 --> 03:56:35,979
You can do that.

5690
03:56:36,980 --> 03:56:38,909
Notice that at some point

5691
03:56:38,909 --> 03:56:40,455
we're going to have to
have a public hearing.

5692
03:56:40,455 --> 03:56:43,544
Whether we do it that
day or a week later,

5693
03:56:43,544 --> 03:56:46,150
you could continue
at your convenience.

5694
03:56:47,690 --> 03:56:51,480
You can also you
probably have

5695
03:56:51,480 --> 03:56:53,910
some flexibility
regarding how much time

5696
03:56:53,910 --> 03:56:55,019
you a lot to it obviously,

5697
03:56:55,019 --> 03:56:56,670
but that's where
our problem is.

5698
03:56:56,670 --> 03:56:58,394
We allowed 3 min.

5699
03:56:58,394 --> 03:57:00,270
The problem is more
of a discussion

5700
03:57:00,270 --> 03:57:02,085
from the commission side.

5701
03:57:02,085 --> 03:57:04,950
Doubles or triples.
Because we

5702
03:57:04,950 --> 03:57:06,000
have questions we want

5703
03:57:06,000 --> 03:57:07,514
to That's what we learned.

5704
03:57:07,514 --> 03:57:13,319
So 33 with no questions

5705
03:57:13,319 --> 03:57:16,065
we can get through
during a merger.

5706
03:57:16,065 --> 03:57:18,180
But then we wouldn't learn

5707
03:57:18,180 --> 03:57:20,024
anything and I wouldn't
let me do their job.

5708
03:57:20,024 --> 03:57:23,399
So my my sense

5709
03:57:23,399 --> 03:57:25,769
is that we could
get some consensus

5710
03:57:25,769 --> 03:57:28,379
on some further
elaboration of

5711
03:57:28,379 --> 03:57:29,849
general guidance

5712
03:57:29,849 --> 03:57:31,620
on that materially
altered standard,

5713
03:57:31,620 --> 03:57:34,125
but being able to

5714
03:57:34,125 --> 03:57:38,129
get to agreement and
a good discussion on

5715
03:57:38,129 --> 03:57:39,840
the clear and
objective standards

5716
03:57:39,840 --> 03:57:41,519
and what that means
in a variety of

5717
03:57:41,519 --> 03:57:43,619
situations and
what size the area

5718
03:57:43,619 --> 03:57:48,509
is. Day in itself.

5719
03:57:48,509 --> 03:57:49,440
I just don't know how

5720
03:57:49,440 --> 03:57:50,519
we can get through that.

5721
03:57:50,519 --> 03:57:52,200
And, you know, all
those other people

5722
03:57:52,200 --> 03:57:53,549
are gonna be out there.

5723
03:57:53,549 --> 03:57:54,989
Either sending you notes,

5724
03:57:54,989 --> 03:57:56,220
are wanting to say

5725
03:57:56,220 --> 03:57:58,350
something and we don
t have the ability

5726
03:57:58,350 --> 03:57:59,669
anymore for the
Commission to

5727
03:57:59,669 --> 03:58:01,139
ask questions of people

5728
03:58:01,139 --> 03:58:06,179
other than the
parking lot?

5729
03:58:06,179 --> 03:58:09,105
I think the most
important thing

5730
03:58:09,105 --> 03:58:10,770
in our work program and

5731
03:58:10,770 --> 03:58:12,344
your time that we get

5732
03:58:12,344 --> 03:58:15,359
the bulk of the
next meeting.

5733
03:58:15,359 --> 03:58:17,310
So if we just leave
it alone based

5734
03:58:17,310 --> 03:58:19,305
on what you
directed yesterday,

5735
03:58:19,305 --> 03:58:21,360
Maybe we'll have the

5736
03:58:21,360 --> 03:58:24,120
materially alter thing in

5737
03:58:24,120 --> 03:58:25,019
a state that you'll feel

5738
03:58:25,019 --> 03:58:26,040
comfortable with it if we

5739
03:58:26,040 --> 03:58:28,965
don't split it, but okay.

5740
03:58:28,965 --> 03:58:30,270
We'll split it
in the July,

5741
03:58:30,270 --> 03:58:32,279
which is the case law

5742
03:58:32,279 --> 03:58:33,989
stands even if
the rule stays

5743
03:58:33,989 --> 03:58:35,789
exactly the way
it is and we have

5744
03:58:35,789 --> 03:58:38,100
to take it the next step.

5745
03:58:38,100 --> 03:58:39,360
Is that right?

5746
03:58:39,360 --> 03:58:40,050
Yeah.

5747
03:58:40,050 --> 03:58:42,599
My concern would be if
we put up one area,

5748
03:58:42,599 --> 03:58:43,829
we've got open up
something else.

5749
03:58:43,829 --> 03:58:46,380
And the goal three
rules, right?

5750
03:58:46,380 --> 03:58:47,984
Pressure.

5751
03:58:47,984 --> 03:58:52,289
You open up. If we open
up material apart,

5752
03:58:52,289 --> 03:58:53,920
then we have to
open up soils.

5753
03:58:53,920 --> 03:58:56,445
We have to know
we don't notice

5754
03:58:56,445 --> 03:58:57,689
we would notice
that that all

5755
03:58:57,689 --> 03:58:59,490
were at the testimony

5756
03:58:59,490 --> 03:59:02,619
that you've done
in the past.

5757
03:59:10,310 --> 03:59:13,049
Everybody has a
copy of vendors

5758
03:59:13,049 --> 03:59:16,769
TO what is the
move and get

5759
03:59:16,769 --> 03:59:21,799
minus sign color copies.

5760
03:59:21,799 --> 03:59:23,325
So we get to the picture.

5761
03:59:23,325 --> 03:59:25,769
I think he had some

5762
03:59:25,769 --> 03:59:27,479
young guy because he wants

5763
03:59:27,479 --> 03:59:32,110
you to buy the public.

5764
03:59:33,020 --> 03:59:35,279
There. Yes. A new magazine

5765
03:59:35,279 --> 03:59:37,124
called open spaces,

5766
03:59:37,124 --> 03:59:45,639
Northwest region.
You can find it.